PDA

View Full Version : [D&D 3.5e] More Brutal Combat (Critique please!)



mistformsquirrl
2009-06-27, 07:15 AM
Hello all <. .> First, apologies for the thread title; it's the best name I could come up with even though I know it sounds a bit ridiculous ><

So I'm planning on running a campaign sometime later this year; and one thing I want to do is to make the combat a little grittier and nastier. I want to get away from the "You're fine until your at 0 HP or below" situation you commonly see in D&D; but likewise, I don't want to switch systems because most systems that have rules for say... limb loss - also tend to be much much more lethal than I want.

So, being bored tonight, I sat down and wrote this up, this is just the first draft - I'd like to refine it so that it's at least somewhat easy to use (though I know full well it's going to slow combat down - I'm willing to live with it though, I just want to make sure it's polished as well as it can be.)

(Also - sorry for not using Tables; I'm rolling 1s tonight my my search checks >.<)
------------------------------------------------------------------------

These rules are designed to give D&D 3.5e combat a more brutal and grittier feel, where a solid strike can cleave limbs (including the player's!) or cause other effects.

As a note: Players should understand that these rules are not designed for realism per-se; they attempt to replicate 'movie realism' - the effects should make some sense, but likewise aren't always as debilitating as a real life injury of that kind would be. For example: Having your throat cut is most often quite lethal in reality. In these rules, such an injury is debilitating, but only fatal if left untreated.

It is advised that a DM using these rules inform their players, and that players not neglect the Heal skill, as it becomes invaluable using this system.

This system also can lengthen a combat round quite a bit if things are not handled efficiently (even then, it does create some extra time constraints)

To speed things along: Roll the Hit Location d100 along with your attack roll rather than waiting for your DM to tell you if you hit (make sure to get permission first of course). If you hit, then follow the roll to it's conclusion; if not, no worries, simply discard the roll. If your DM allows, you might also wish to roll your damage dice at this time, adding dice for critical hits after the fact.

On to the rules!

Special effects on weapons:


These apply each time you strike with these weapons, no matter what location you strike.

Bludgeoning weapons have a 10% (Roll d100, 91-100 is what you're after) chance of causing 2 Strength damage per strike. This can apply to coporeal undead and most constructs (though incoporeal creatures are immune, as are oozes).

Note that bludgeoning damage cause damage to the physical structure of the creature - deep tissue bruises, bones, even stone can crack and shatter. A result on the chart below of "Severed" when rolled with a blunt weapon usually means the limb is horribly broken and mangled beyond use. It is likely still attached, but it is completely useless, and well beyond the recovery of a standard Cure spell.

This is left somewhat to DM interpretation however, as the size of the weapon and strength of the wielder may very well rip the limb away.

Piercing and slashing weapons cause 1 hp/round bleeding for each strike they make. Creatures that are immune to critical hits are immune to this damage.

Note that Piercing weapons do not typically "sever" a limb (though certain broad-headed spears might) - generally a result of "Severed" on a given limb means that the nerves have been cut, and the limb is completely useless, though still attached. This is left somewhat to DM interpretation however, as the size of the weapon and strength of the wielder may very well rip the limb away.


Weaponlike spells instead cause:



Cold - Location is numbed. If an arm, -1 to attack for 1 round. If a leg, -5ft to base speed. If head, the spell's usual save DC or be stunned for 1 round. Otherwise normal.

Fire - Location has severe burns. Arm -1 to attack for 1 round. Leg, -5ft to speed. Head, the spell's usual save DC or be blinded for 1 round.

Electricity - Location suffers convulsions. Arm - Make a disarm attempt, using the spell's level +10 as your strength score. (Consider the attack roll successful). If you fail they cannot attempt to disarm you. Leg - Make a trip attempt using the spell's level +10 as your strength score (consider the attack roll already made). You cannot be tripped if you fail. Head, the spell's usual save DC or be dazed for 1 round.

Sonic - Location is hammered by a wave Head - Head, the spell's usual save DC or be deafened for 1 round. Torso - Make a Bull Rush attempt against the target, with the spell's level +10 as your strength score. Legs - Make a trip attempt with the spell's level +10 as your strength score. You cannot be tripped if you fail.

Force - Location is hammered by a wave Head - Head, the spell's usual save DC or be stunned for 1 round. Torso - Make a Bull Rush attempt against the target, with the spell's level +10 as your strength score. Legs - Make a trip attempt with the spell's level +10 as your strength score. You cannot be tripped if you fail.

Acid - Location suffers severe burn. Location has severe burns. Arm -1 to attack for 1 round. Leg, -5ft to speed. Head, the spell's usual save DC or be nauseated for 1 round.

Holy/Unholy/Negative/Positive - Location suffers convulsions as raw power roils through it.. Arm - Make a disarm attempt, using the spell's level +10 as your strength score. (Consider the attack roll successful). If you fail they cannot attempt to disarm you. Leg - Make a trip attempt using the spell's level +10 as your strength score (consider the attack roll already made). You cannot be tripped if you fail. Head, the spell's usual save DC or be dazed for 1 round.


Note that only spells that require an attack roll cause these effects - other sources of these damage types, be they spells or weapon effects do not apply.

Grenadelike weapons may apply at the DM's option.

Locational Damage:



After you roll a hit, roll a d100, different locations have different effects

Head - 95-100

Neck - 94-92

Torso - 91-50

Right Arm - 49-40

Left Arm - 39-30

Right Leg - 29-15

Left Leg - 14-1


Head:


On a normal hit, you score an automatic critical threat (you still must roll to confirm). If you scored a confirmed critical hit before rolling Head as a damage location, increase the critical damage modifier x1.

Example: A longsword strikes an orc in the head with a confirmed critical - the longsword acts as if it had a critical modifier of x3 rather than x2.

Example 2: A longsword strikes an orc in the head with a normal hit roll - roll to confirm critical; if successful, a normal critical hit at the longsword's x2 modifier applies.

Roll another d100 after striking the head; the below rules are in addition to the above.

Right Eye 96-100

Left Eye 95-92

Both Eyes 91-90

Face 89-20

Right Ear 19-10

Left Ear 9-1

Eye: You lose the eye in question, causing the associated loss of depth perception (manifesting as a -2 penalty on ranged attacks and a -2 on spot and search checks)

An injury to Both eyes, either caused individually or by a Both Eyes roll causes Blindness.

Face: Nothing beyond the normal Head rules; though you are likely left with a scar. How this impacts the character is up to the player and DM.

Ear: The loss of an ear causes partial deafness, resulting in a -2 to Listen checks, and a 10% Spell Failure chance to any spell with a verbal component. The loss of both ears causes complete deafness, all listen checks are automatically failed, and spells with Verbal components have a 20% chance to fail.



Neck:


Neck injuries vary by damage type. A piercing or slashing weapon causes a bleeding wound (4 HP per round until a healing spell is applied or a DC 15 heal check is made- this stacks with any other sources of bleeding). A bludgeoning weapon on the other hand inflicts a -2 penalty to Constitution and Strength until a healing spell is applied or a DC 15 heal check is made.

Regardless of damage type, the character also has a 50% chance of being unable to speak until a healing spell is applied or a DC 15 heal check is made.


A critical hit against the neck guarantees the creature is incapable of speech until recieving a DC20 heal check or magical healing; and also doubles the bleeding or ability penalties until recieving a DC20 heal check or magical healing.


Torso:



Normal damage rules are followed for non-critical hits. A critical hit on this location causes internal injuries that result in 2hp per round of bleeding until a DC 15 heal check is made or magical healing is applied.


Arm:



Arm injuries apply a -1 to attack with that arm, or a -1ac if a shield is wielded in that arm. A DC15 heal check or having magical healing applied removes this condition. A critical hit against that arm rolls on the chart below to determine how much of the limb is lost.

Fingers (roll secondary chart) - 100-51

(Roll 1d6-1, minimum 1 to determine quantity, then roll 1d6-1 (minimum 1) that number of times to determine which fingers are lost. A maximum result of 5 on the first die assumes the hand was cut in half.)

Penalties to attack stack until the fingers are regenerated.

1. Index. finger 2. Middle finger, 3. Ring finger 4. Pinky finger 5. Thumb - Can no longer grip objects with this hand

Each finger lost incurs a -5% Arcane Spell Failure penalty, and a -1 to attack. (The loss of the thumb makes the latter pointless however, as weapons cannot be meaningfully gripped in that hand any longer.

Wrist - 50-35

The hand is lost above the wrist. The character cannot pick up objects with that arm and suffers a bleeding wound (2hp/round) until a DC 15 heal check or magical healing is applied. A hook may be fitted to the hand to allow for limited functionality, and a modified shield (DC 15 Craft Armor check) may still be strapped to the stump, though it's check penalty increases by 1.

Elbow - 34-15

The arm is lost from the elbow up. The character suffers a bleeding wound (2hp/round) until a DC 15 heal check or magical healing is applied. Only a magical prosthetic can be utilized. A buckler maybe strapped to the upper arm, though it incurs double arcane spell failure and a check penalty of -2.

Shoulder - 14-1

The entire arm is gone. The character suffers a massive bleeding wound (4hp/round) until a DC 20 heal check or magical healing is applied. Only a magical prosthetic may be utilized. No items may be strapped to this location as it simply does not exist in a meaningful quantity at this point.



Leg:



Leg injuries apply a -5ft to base speed and a -1 to Reflex saves. This lasts untl a DC 15 heal check or magical healing is applied to the character.

A critical hit against the leg has a 50% chance of severing it.

Leg is intact, though wounded - 100-51; 2hp/round bleeding until a DC 15 heal check or magical healing is applied.

Leg is severed at the ankle - 50-40; 2hp/round bleeding until a DC 15 heal check or magical healing is applied. -2 to Balance, Climb, Jump, Swim, Hide, Move Silently, speed is halved. Character is subject to an automatic trip attempt when this occurs.

Leg is severed at the knee - 40-15; 2hp/round bleeding until a DC 15 heal check or magical healing is applied. -4 to Balance, Climb, Jump, Swim, Hide, Move Silently, character may only crawl along at 1/4 base speed. Character is subject to an automatic trip attempt when this occurs.

Leg is severed at the thigh - 15-1; 4hp/round bleeding until a DC 20 heal check or magical healing is applied. -10 to Balance, Climb, Jump, Swim, Hide, Move Silently, character may only crawl along at 1/4 base speed. Character is subject to an automatic trip attempt when this occurs.

Standing with a severed leg requires a DC 15/20/25 balance check each round, depending on the severity. (15 for ankle, 20 for knee, 25 for thigh).


--

Recovery:


Lost body parts may be recovered via a Restoration spell - the strength of the spell determining just how quickly the limb re-grows.

Lesser Restoration takes 2d4 days, Restoration, 1d4 days, and Greater Restoration, 1 day.

The effects of the Regenerate spell are now meshed with Greater Restoration. Any spell list where Regenerate appears, replace it with Greater Restoration, add Lesser Restoration as a 2nd level spell, and Restoration as a 4th level spell.

Alternatively, prosthetics may be applied - the prices and functionality of which should be determined by the DM and players.


Called shots:



Called shots are not guaranteed to hit the area aimed for - rather they simply expand the die roll range for that area.

First, make a standard attack roll with a -2 penalty (-4 against the head, neck, or targets on the head) - note that ranged weapons and spells must be within 30ft to make a called shot, as the precision required is almost impossible at greater distances.

If it hits, expand the possible range of the hit as follows:

Location in question increases by a % to hit.

+10% against head or neck

+15% for Arm

+20% for Leg

Torso: The regular attack roll is considered to be aimed at the torso (which being as big a target as it is, does not incur a penalty to hit). There are no called shots to the torso.

The range for other locations change in accordance with the following:

Head: Head 85-100, Neck - 84-75, Torso - 74-40, Right Arm - 39-30, Left Arm - 29-20,
Right Leg - 19-10, Left Leg - 9-1

Neck: Head - 91-100, Neck - 94-82, Torso - 82-40, Right Arm - 39-30, Left Arm -29-20, Right Leg - 19-10, Left Leg - 9-1

Right Arm: Head - 98-100, Neck - 96-97, Torso - 95-55, Right Arm - 54-30, Left Arm - 29-25, Right Leg - 24-7, Left Leg - 6-1

Left Arm: Head - 98-100, Neck - 96-97, Torso - 95-50, Right Arm - 29-25, Left Arm - 54-30, Right Leg - 6-1, Left Leg - 24-7

Right Leg: Head - 99-100, Neck - 98-98, Torso - 97-50, Right Arm - 49-41, Left Arm - 40-45, Right Leg - 39-6, Left Leg - 5-1

Left Leg: Head - 99-100, Neck - 98-98, Torso - 97-50, Right Arm - 40-45, Left Arm - 49-41, Right Leg - 5-1, Left Leg - 39-6


Creatures with non-humanoid anatomy



Some creatures simply have more or less of a given type of limb or other body part than a typical humanoid.

First - an explanation of body parts as they apply to unusual anatomy:

Head: The head is usually easy to recognize. This is generally where the brain and eyes are kept, as well as any ears and a mouth. Note that this is not always true, and not all creatures have a head. In the case of a creature that has no distinguishable head, but rather has eyes, a mouth, and a brain in it's body (Beholders for instance) consider them to be a Torso, but see special rules later for still harming the eyes and other important targets.

Neck: This is the area between the head and the torso, and usually carries food, air, and if the creature can speak or make other noises with it's mouth, generally contains its vocal organs. Many creatures simply do not have one, and some do not care if it is damaged. (A Golem often has a neck - but damaging it causes no special ill effects for the creature - Conversely, a Scorpion's neck is almost impossible to strike, and is considered for all intents and purposes of this system simply not to exist.)

Torso: This is the main body of the creature. Even on creatures with no anatomy whatsoever (oozes primarily) this is the primary target location. If a creature has no other limbs, it still has a Torso.
Whew >.<;;

Arms: These are generally the 'offensive' limbs of a creature. For example - a bears front paws, a beholder's eye-stalks, a scorpion's pincers - all of these classify as "Arms" under this system. Not all creatures have arms; some have limbs solely for the purpose of locomotion or primarily for locomotion - in which case they are legs (Ex: A horse's legs - even though they can rear and kick, are primarily for locomotion and thus all 4 fall under legs.)

Legs: Limbs used primarily for locomotion. When faced with a creature who uses their limbs both for movement and attack, think about the specific method. An Ape for instance will walk on it's front knuckles, but these limbs are considered arms, as they are as much for grasping and attacking as movement. Conversely a horse, although it can rear up and kick with it's forelegs, uses them primarily for locomotion. Some lack legs altogether, and others have unusual forms of locomotive limb (ex: a lower body like a snake).

In the latter case, if the unusual locomotive limb is still outside the body and can be struck, then it counts as a leg. Note: Wings fall into this category. Note that if a creature has insignificant traditional legs (like a flighted bird), then the wings completely replace the 'leg' category. If the creature has both useful wings and useful legs (ex: a harpy), then use the rules below for alternate limb distribution.

Handling attacks on creatures with unusual anatomy



Most creatures have a head or heads, a neck or necks, a torso, legs or wings, and arms.




When attacking a creature with unusual anatomy - use the same rules as normal with the following modifications:

1) If there is more than one of a given hit location (example: 4 arms, 2 on each side), then first, determine the hit location as normal - ex: Left Arm, then randomize between the arms on that side.

So a creature with 4 arms, 2 on each side, hit in the "Left Arm" location, requires you roll 1d2 to determine specifically which arm was hit.

2) If a given piece of anatomy is singular where there are multiples on a standard creature of that type, then treat all hits against that location as being on the specific body part.

Example: A Yuan-Ti with a snake's lower half. All hits to either Right or Left leg count as a hit against it's "Leg" (ie: the snake tail).

The same would be true of a creature with one arm, or one eye.

Note, the DM may wish to rule that for exceptionally thick limbs (the aforementioned Yuan-Ti snake body), that it requires the location to be severed more than once for it to be truly removed. This is an optional rule however, and is left to the DM to determine when appropriate.

3) If a given piece of anatomy simply does not exist on that creature, then re-roll to hit location if it comes up. If a creature has no specific body parts (like an ooze), treat the entire creature as a Torso; though if sensory organs are present, roll on the Head chart to determine if these are injured. This does not inflict an automatic critical threat - you are still striking the torso, it just happens to be a torso with eyes or ears.

4)

For truly bizarre anatomy - for example, a Beholder, who's torso is also it's head, apply common sense to determine it's hit locations.

For a Beholder, this means that each Eyestalk is an arm (arms being offensive limbs).

So when rolling for hit locations against a beholder, consider the eye stalks on the left half of it's body to be the left arm location, and the eyestalks on the right side of it's body to be the right arm.

Then randomize (1d4) to determine which stalk is hit. Use the Head chart to determine if an eye is put out.

Treat the rest of the beholder as a Torso, and hits on the torso have a chance of wounding the large central eye with a roll on the Head table.

Again - just because you roll on the head table does not mean you get an automatic threat - only a creature with a distinct head location receives that.




5) Called shots against a multi-limbed area operate normally. However if a very specific limb ("The Third leg on the right of that giant scorpion") is to be targetted, increase the AC penalty by half again. If it's successful, and the roll on the location chart indicates the called area, then the specific limb is struck.

Otherwise treat the attack normally.

6) "Special" Limbs - These include the Scorpion's Stinger, certain Devil's stingers, or any other limb that does not immediately appear to fall under the normal definitions; though they are almost invariably offensive or magical in nature.

Consider such a limb an additional Arm, with the number of "Special" limbs divided evenly between the Arm hit locations. If there is only one special limb, or an odd number of special limbs, then treat one of these special limbs as strikeable from either side.

Ex: A scorpion receives a hit on the Right Arm location. Roll 1d2 to determine if the stinger is struck instead of the pincer. The same would be done if it were rolled on the Left arm.

On the other hand, if a scorpion had 3 tails, you'd randomize 1d3 on each side - the 1 being a pincer, the 2 being the tail on that side, and the third being the center tail.


Concerns -


Admittedly this requires a bit of work - but bizarre monsters like the Beholder are thankfully uncommon to most campaigns that would use these rules.

If you do want to include a lot of strange creatures and use these rules, there are two simpler ways to handle it.

First - before such an encounter (preferably before the session) the DM should map out the guidelines on the given creature so that they can be consulted instantly.

This is the best way, as it allows players to continue using these rules and potentially disrupt a dangerous creature with careful choices.

The other way is to simply consider the anatomy too bizarre to be accounted for traditionally. In this case, count the entire creature as a torso and ignore the other rules. (In other words, fight as you would a standard D20 combat, with the exception of the weapon conditions and potential bleeding from a critical.)



*Huff-puff huff-puff*

Update!

Added:

Rules for dealing with strange anatomies. I tried to keep them simple - the mostly require a simple randomization roll to determine which specific limb is hit, after rolling a location. This can be a little complex in dealing with really "out there" creatures... but I think for most unusual critters it ought to be OK.

Made Neck hits a bit more severe, including adding a critical effect (I'd forgotten to before).

Made certain the description of what a Blunt or Piercing weapon does when it "severs" a limb is present, so people don't get weird ideas of hammers cleanly slicing arms or rapiers taking off people's legs >.>

Please let me know what you think >< this remains a work in progress!

Callos_DeTerran
2009-06-27, 11:02 AM
I like it. But then again, I enjoy being able to lop off limbs and whatnot as a DM and player.

A problem though, do you you handle enemies that have no/multiples of any given limb?

A snake has no arms or legs.

A marilith has multiple arms and no legs.

A Hydra has lots of heads, no arms, and four legs.

The system seems to work fine (to me) for humanoid opponents but doesn't take into account more monstrous foes.

mistformsquirrl
2009-06-27, 11:15 AM
Yeah, that's one thing I haven't dealt with just yet >.< I wanted to start with humanoids though, because they are (for me as a DM) my favorite opponents. I'm weird in that a lot of my campaigns have human opponents, rather than lots of monsters.

That said, it is something I plan to address, I'm just not 100% sure how yet... the system needs to be able to grow organically to address a multi-limbed foe without requiring

A) A chart per-monster (Ie: One for six arms, one for 4 arms, one for 2 heads, etc...

B) Excessive paperwork on the part of the DM and players (as this system by default will add enough work)

So that's one of those things I'm leaving until I nail down the whole thing.

One possibility I'm considering (though it's not perfect) is that if an opponent has multiples of a given limb type, then consider each body part on the original chart to be a general hit location - you then roll again to randomize specically which bodypart it is.


(Example: Fighting a Marelith, you swing and hit the right arm location - you then roll 1d3 to determine which of her arms is injured. Likewise fighting an Ettin, you hit the Head location, you roll 1d2 to see which head you hit.)

That said, it creates some uncomfortable issues in regard to called shots; not to mention might become a problem for monsters with an execessive number of limbs. (Hundred handed ones, Remorhaz, really anything arachnoid or larger is a problem. There's also things like a scorpion's stinging tail, whcih as a player you'd want to target, but I'm not totally sure how to handle yet)

>.< So yah, very very valid issue, and one I'm working on; but not yet totally sure how to handle it.

Baron Corm
2009-06-27, 11:43 AM
I don't see anyone getting past level 5 with these rules. It's all up to chance whether you lose any given body part. Regenerate is a 7th level spell. Odds are that the players will just fall apart, regardless of their strength or the strength of their enemies.

mistformsquirrl
2009-06-27, 02:09 PM
Hrmm... definitely a potential problem.

Here's a question though: How often do critical hits occur against PCs (which is the only way to actually lose a limb; losing an eye or an ear doesn't require a crit (since a headshot is a crit by definition) but requires rolling a particularly small % chance on the chart. (5% chance to hit the head, then roll again to see if you hit a specific part)

Still, it could be a problem.

What about an additional house rule allowing Restoration and Lesser Restoration to regrow body parts, just not as quickly as a Regenerate spell?

(Ex: You lose your arm at the elbow, Lesser Restoration heals it to the wrist, Restoration recovers it from elbow through the palm (still fingerless though) - multiple castings could potentially restore a lost limb, no matter how bad.)

How's that sound? Reasonable?

Arachu
2009-06-27, 03:48 PM
I like it. A lot.

Also, something like this might work on a scorpion:


Head - 95-100

Tail- 94-72

Body - 71-50

Right Arm - 49-40

Left Arm - 39-30

Right Legs - 29-15

Left Legs - 14-1


One might argue that you're less likely to hit the body through all of those limbs...

Also, for things such as the Marilith, that lack certain limbs (case in point; legs), you could say that you hit it in the tail (tail here meaning "bit past the organs"), causing similar forms of damage. The threat range for both legs could be combined to equal-
- Tail- 29-1 -
-for a threat range of 30 (meaning it's quite likely to hit, supported by the length of the tail past where the hips 'would be').

... As for the snake, perhaps you could say?-
- Head- 95-100 -
- Neck- 94-92 -
- Body- 91-30 -
- Tail- 29-1.

Plus, using the equivalent roll (D3 for Marilith arms, etc) is an excellent component (or, you could say each arm has 19 1/3 (round to 19%) chance to get hit).

As for things with absurd amounts of body parts... I would probably use the current system on them (or count the masses of limbs as part of the torso analogue).

With Oozes, the current system should probably be used, unless they have some kind of nucleus, which might behave like a 'head'. Thus, an Ooze with a nucleus would have-
- Nucleus- 95-100 -
With a 30% chance to hit something of your size category within. Thus-
- Nucleus- 95-100 -
- Medium Creature- 94-64.
If multiple Medium things are stuck in it, then you could roll equivalent dice to figure out who you hit.
Other sizes might be-
- Small: 20%
- Tiny: 10%
- Diminutive: 5%
- Fine 1%
and working in the opposite direction until a whopping 70% or so (but, it's unlikely that you'll fight an Ooze that has a Great Wyrm in it, so... Yeah...).

Or was it? I keep forgetting all those size categories and rules :roy:

... Huh. That was rather long...

P.S. I once homebrewed a humanoid Ooze. How might one expect attribute damage from bludgeoning to work (they bleed and can lose limbs, so this one's the question)?

Again, nice :smallbiggrin:

Baron Corm
2009-06-27, 05:50 PM
What about an additional house rule allowing Restoration and Lesser Restoration to regrow body parts, just not as quickly as a Regenerate spell?

(Ex: You lose your arm at the elbow, Lesser Restoration heals it to the wrist, Restoration recovers it from elbow through the palm (still fingerless though) - multiple castings could potentially restore a lost limb, no matter how bad.)

How's that sound? Reasonable?

Well, given the change in system, I might just allow even lesser restoration to regenerate the limb fully. Except that it would take a 2d4 days to work fully. Restoration could take a day. While we're at it just roll regenerate into greater restoration at this point. I don't see the benefit of healing an arm just to the wrist, or palm, if you still can't wield a weapon. Then again maybe I'm just being too nice :smalltongue:.

Arachu
2009-06-27, 09:02 PM
Well, if you heal it to the wrist, you can mount a hook on your arm.

And everyone who's anyone (including myself, who may as well have been raised under a rock) knows how badass that can be.

Seriously, you'd need to make someone a lycanthrope to compensate :smalltongue:

playswithfire
2009-06-27, 10:21 PM
I preface this by saying I have not read everything in the above post and comments, but it seems to me that one issue that has been raised is the ability to generalize the striking of arms, legs, and heads to account for different numbers of those body parts.

This is one method of doing that that has occurred to me. Feel free to ignore if it's inconsistent with what you're trying to do. There is somewhat less randomness, but the rules generalize to any number of heads and limbs.

Called Shots

Called shots are modified very slightly as you can aim at a class of body parts or a specific instance of that body part. That is, you can say 'I attack the hydra's heads' or 'I attack the hydra's leftmost head' and these are somewhat different. On a called shot at a class of body parts (the legs, the arms, the heads), the target creature gets an AC bonus based on the body part type.
{table=head]Body Part|AC Bonus
Arm | 2
Leg | 2
Tail | 2
Head | 4
Neck | 6[/table]
If the attack hits, roll a d{number of that type of body part} to determine which of the body parts is hit, with the body parts numbered clockwise from the creature's perspective. (For arms, this would be the left ones top to bottom and then the right ones bottom to top, for instance.)

To aim at a specific limb, apply the base AC modification described above and add an additional modifer equal to the number of that type of body part the creature has -1. So, when you try to hit the bottom left arm of a Thri-Kreen, its AC gets a +5 modifier.

There is no need to call a shot on the torso; any uncalled shot is aimed at the torso and has no AC modification.


Uncalled Shot

An uncalled shot is aimed at the torso, but might hit one of the arms or legs; head and neck shots are called only, since those are hard. On a critical threat, you make forgo the option to confirm the crit in order to hit a random limb. On a natural 20, randomly hit a limb and attempt to confirm the crit. When you have the option to strike a limb, roll a d{number of arms + number of legs} to determine which is hit; limbs are numbered in the order clockwise arms followed by clockwise legs. Means you can't accidentally crit a limb, but I'm ok with that, since, if you were aiming for the torso, you probably wouldn't sever the limb.


Just my two cents. Your system looks very interesting and I look forward to seeing the updates.

mistformsquirrl
2009-06-28, 06:52 AM
Addressing concerns in order...

@Arachu - ... I actually forgot about Oozes >.< They'll make things difficult I think. Other creatures I can see still taking the ability damage even though they're normally immune, because having a shattered arm (ex: a skeleton or golem) will still impact their ability to bring force to bear.

An ooze though... I'm not so sure >.<

The ability damage represents severe bruising and/or minor fractures in the bone. Not enough that the individual is out of the fight, but enough to cause substantial pain and/or simply impair their physical ability (ex: You cracked a skeleton's backbone - the skeleton doesn't hurt, you aren't disrupting it's nervous system... but it's not capable of bringing as much physical force to bear because it's spine would potentially break. Likewise, if you crack the stone in a stone golem, you've weakened it's physical structure)

Living creatures, having more soft tissue, are mostly going to be dealing with serious bruising.

Should I just grant Oozes immunity? Or should I try to come up with another explanation, like, pieces of ooze are literally ripped off of the creature and it lacks some of the mass it had had?


@Corm - I actually like that idea a g ood bit.

My theory was though that, like hitpoints, a limb can only be fully re-grown in one go by the right spell - otherwise it takes multiple castings (like Cure Light Wounds repeatedly for HP)

However I think your method actually addresses that problem nicely, as a serious wound can put the adventurer's out of action for a few days... while not crippling them "Forever".

I might actually right out Regen under such circumstances though - because the more I think about it, the more just being able to cure everyone instantly after a fight could make it a non-issue. (Or maybe I'll just roll it with Greater Restoration like you said, but make it take 1 day to regenerate. Regular Restoration should take at least 1d4 days though.)

Otherwise, such injuries become a non-concern after a fight - everyone is healed up and back to full as-per usual. I'd like to see PCs sometimes be stuck walking around with a stump or a hook for awhile. (Or an eye patch!)

Oh - a question:

In regard to Weaponlike spells - do you all think that what I've got is reasonable? I wanted to make sure everyone could get in on the fun - ("... I just impaled his head on an ice spike <o.@> ... cool!") and also give Wizards a bit of an incentive to blast... but I don't want to make them more powerful than they already are.

It may be a non-issue as I'm considering only allowing the more narrow casters (Dread Necro, Beguiler, Warmage, etc...) but we'll see >< It's on my list of concerns.

@Playswithfire - That's an interesting idea... I'm not sure if I will or won't go with it, but at the least it's something to think about.

For my campaign, it probably won't be an issue as I'm not the type to use a lot of those types of monsters; but I want the system usable for other people's campaigns so... yeah, definitely taking that particular idea under consideration.

I have another one too that I'm thinking on that might work out.

Hopefully whatever I come up with will be reasonable for everyone. I'm hoping to make combat a little crazier (and thus for non-ToB non-Casters; perhaps more exciting too), but if I bog it down too much with extra detail... well it's a concern. >.< But that's what the thread is fore eh? <@_@>

(I haven't had my coffee yet, thus the rambling >.>)

Thanks again all for the input! (And more is welcome) I'll try to update it later today with some of the suggestions, if not today, then tomorrow for certain.

J.Gellert
2009-06-28, 07:18 AM
Unfortunately, to me called shots have always seemed like a bad idea... They just never seem to work correctly. If they are a decent option, everyone will use them all the time. If they suck, no one will ever use them (except if they manage a trick like True Strike, but that makes a single level 1 spell so much better).

If you tie it to critical hits it's not as bad, but it still raises issues, mostly because they are an "all or nothing" deal and both players and BBEGs will tend to fall to chance... which is not very fun.

You could look at the Conan D20 RPG for a way to make combat grittier without called shots, but that's just that: Brutal combat. It doesn't have any of the disfiguration you are looking for here, and its movie-realism is instead carried out by special maneuvers and a deadlier massive damage threshold.

Kiren
2009-06-28, 11:18 AM
I created Surgery for DnD, I think I nearly finished it and I'm thinking about making a second version, however, I think i put Limb Reattachment as a procedure. It should be in my Signature

Edit: Humanoid limb loss and chart of injury's incurred on successful d20 too.

Arachu
2009-06-28, 02:03 PM
One thing I noticed is how getting punched in the gut can be just as deadly as having your neck slashed open...

It works already, but it seems as though it would make sense if it did massive bleeding (4hp-per-round).

Though, to be fair, that should only cause that much bleeding if it's deep (scratches wouldn't bleed as much as a bisected thyroid).

... Perhaps massive bleeding should occur on critical hits, and normal bleeding should occur on normal hits (or wait, did you already need a crit? Gah, I need to start taking evening coffee :smallsigh:).

Ooh! Another bit-how would immersion in harmful materials go? It makes sense that it would effect everything at once. You know, blinds you, slows you, etc. due to burns or acid damage...

Also, would loss of both legs mean you have no base speed, or that you crawl at 1/4th still?

Magentawolf
2009-06-28, 02:07 PM
If you want to be absolutely insane about it, take a look at the Critical Hit charts from Rolemaster's 'Law of Arms' book.

GreatWyrmGold
2009-06-28, 04:40 PM
Well...You could just increase weapon damage/critical hits/etc and add a scarring system...Cool idea.

mistformsquirrl
2009-06-28, 05:42 PM
@Arachu -

Immersion in harmful materials and AOE blast spells is something I'm hoping to add after I take care of the multi-limbed creature problem >.> They're on the lsit, but aren't a big priority.

As for having no legs - you can still crawl at 1/4 speed. Obviously if you're that injured though, you're probably in some significant trouble and would (hopefully) be stopping to rest in short order >.> so it's mainly a concern if you suddenly need to flee. (Be nice to your party!)

As for Massive Bleeding on the torso... I'm not sure about that. I see what you mean there though; I'll definitely think about it.

@Firkraag -

I tried to address that with this called shot system a bit. Even a called shot, if successful, isn't a guarantee you'll hit the given area. (I tried to make it so that the called shot chart specifically reflects the angle such an attack would come at. So for example, a called shot at the head has a higher chance to hit the head and neck... but also a good chance of hitting the arms (shoulders) and chest, and a rather low chance to hit either leg.)

Head and neck, easily being some of the most crippling places to be injured, have the higher penalty to hit at all; and even on a called shot are a very small amount of the target area.

(A successful attack roll using Called Shot: Head offers only a 15% chance of hitting the head; and a 10% of hitting the neck. They're usually well protected targets, and relatively small compared to other parts of the body.)

So the hoped for is that people will really weigh their decision to aim - is it worth possibly missing altogether for a somewhat better chance at hitting the 'right' spot? Depends on the situation. Body shots are the least dangerous for the foe, but easiest to land.

Of course the problem is going to be once you start getting level 10+ with +3 and better equipment... then the pentalties won't be as big an issue. I'm hoping the 'still not guaranteed to hit that area' aspect will prevent people always using called shots... but we'll see.

If necessary I may try some sort of penalty that changes depending both on the specific target and a given modifier based on an aspect of the creature. I'm not sure precisely what though just yet.

I want to make sure that called shots are advantageous... but not so advantageous that they should be every single attack. So, definitely on my list.

@Kiren - when I get some time I'll take a look at that; sounds intriguing!

@Magentawolf - never heard of that... I assume it's complex?

@Greatgoldwyrm - Well the goal here isn't so much to make combat instantly deadlier (though it does do this to a point!) - but rather, more permanently risky. (Not to mention it lends to the atmosphere I feel. You can have a character lose a hand or an eye; and it could very well become a roleplay hook unto itself. Or drive some character development depending on precisely what happened.)

I also find Death in D&D is all to often a showstopper. You develop your character, they have a goal, a life, a history... and then the hit -10 hitpoints and if you can't rez em... well that's it. It can kill the story unfortunately.

But on the other hand, if the DM coddles the players and they know that death is a non-issue, then they don't play smart at all... and again, that can kill the story.

So I wanted something in between... something that automatically tells players "Hey - combat is *dangerous* - look before you leap!" without having to kill them to drive the point home.

This is especially true at low levels when the loss of a limb or eye will last awhile - it may get regenerated later; but it's going to be a real problem for awhile.

Hope that explains the philosophy behind it <^_^> The TL/DR version is simply "I didn't so much want deadlier combat, as I wanted combat with consequences other than death, and with a grittier more brutal feel than typical D&D combat." (Which sadly often times feels like "The Black Knight is never defeated! (I still have 1hp left!)")

Arachu
2009-06-28, 06:13 PM
I was kind of referring to massive bleeding from the neck. I probably should have stated that directly :smallredface:

EDIT: "I'm not dead yet... I still have a thumb to jam in yer eye!"

I would love to witness someone saying that :smallamused:

Iferus
2009-06-29, 02:19 AM
I like it, although at low levels it will burn out hitpoints very fast.
Perhaps give everyone a static HP bonus to compensate for bleeding risks?

Vaynor
2009-06-29, 02:55 AM
Why do you increase damage by x1 when dealing a crit to the head? That doesn't affect the damage at all.

Tempest Fennac
2009-06-29, 03:47 AM
I came up with 1 system for re-attaching limbs at low levels a while back (it was mainly to counter a DM who likes to use homebrew limb-loss rules).

Reattach didgit/limb. Heal check DC: 15 Time needed: 1 minute for digit, 10 for a limb.

The creature being treated will recieve 1 HP of damage for having a digit attacked, or 5 for a limb. Once the attachment is completed, a Cure spell which is stronger then Cure Monor Wounds which restores HPs in 1 lump needs to be cast to restore limb-use (eg: Cure Light Wounds would work for this, but Lesser Vigor wouldn't due to it granting Fast Healing). Unless an Orison named Preserve Organ is used, the digit or limb must be reattached within 24 hours of being lost.

That could help before Regenerate is available.

mistformsquirrl
2009-06-29, 10:39 AM
@Vaynor - Hehe, that's not damage - that's critical hit mod.

Ex:

A longsword is a 1d8 19-20 x2 weapon.

A longsword that strikes the head on a critical threat (rather than the threat provided merely for hitting the head) is instead a 1d8 19-20 x3 weapon.

So instead of doing 2d8 + double strength mod, it does 3d8 + triple strength mod.

But that's only if the strike would have been a threat before targeting the head. (It's to make certain that striking the head with a natural critical is still beneficial; even though the benefit of hitting the head normally is a free critical threat.)

@Tempest Fennac - Hrmm... that's an interesting idea...

The only issue I have there is it might make it a bit too easy to recover limbs at the lowest levels; and one thing I really want is for players to genuinely feel threatened by body part loss; since going with the Restoration system (proposed up thread), it'll still take a few days for anything shy of a Regeneration spell to recover the limb.

Still, it's not a bad idea; I'm just not sure it'll fit for this particular system.

(Sorry I didn't update the rules last night; doing it today for certain. Had some nasty breathing issues at the time <@.@>m highly unpleasant!)

mistformsquirrl
2009-06-29, 01:47 PM
Updated the first post <@_@> (Sorry for the double >.<)

lsfreak
2009-06-29, 03:14 PM
Just something to point out, is that this doesn't work depending on how your view HP. I view HP as the combination of fatigue and glancing blows. If you take 10 of your 100 hit points, you blocked a blow and weakened yourself. You took a 45-point crit, and it was a solid hit stopped only by your armor and you've got sharp pain in your side. More than likely, the first real hit - one not stopped by armor or sword and that draws more blood than a thin cut - is the one that drops you below zero.

So just wanted to point out, that this type of combat will garner different responses based on how people view their hit points.

More on topic, I can't see anyone reaching high levels by fighting. It's just too risky. Tons of money is going to be spent on spells; even by 2nd level chances are someone's lost a major body part (13.3 encounters/level, even if they only get hit once per encounter the guy taking has a higher chance of being crit than not; if the encounters have more than one guy or take more than one round to finish, the world's going to be full of mutilated 1st-level PC's who can't do anything anymore).

There's also a problem that it makes magic (especially batman wizards) even better than it already is, because it's got so many ways of making sure enemies don't hit you.

talus21
2009-06-29, 03:36 PM
If you wanted to HP to represent fatigue and such to a certain degree, you could implement this system once half of total HP is hit. Over all I like it.

Vaynor
2009-06-29, 03:41 PM
@Vaynor - Hehe, that's not damage - that's critical hit mod.

You should mention it alters critical damage then, to make it more clear.

mistformsquirrl
2009-06-29, 03:51 PM
To address the first point:

I personally prefer the "Hp represents physical damage" approach, because although not particular realistic, it makes sense in regards to Cure spells and the like.

That, and there's something about being battlered and bloody... and still kicking tail >.>


The second point:

I'm not quite sure this is true; unless I'm still mentally using 3.0e crit rules and my brain never updated. I mean - you still have to confirm the crit, yes?

That means there is, more often than not, a 5-10% chance at a threat, and then you still have to roll another hit; which against a high AC character such as a fighter can be quite tough. (Not to mention several locations do not lose anything for a crit - Neck doesn't, Head doesn't - though head has a chance of losing an eye or ear on any hit, it's a realtively low chance since Face is a big chunk of the target area. Torso - the largest location, doesn't.)

The way I'm looking at it:

On a hit, you have a roughly 40% chance to hit the Torso - so even if you crit, you're only going to cause some (admittedly painful) bleeding damage.

Straight HP damage is a bigger concern for a head shot or a neck shot.

Legs on a crit only suffer a 50% chance to be severed; and you have a 50% chance to lose a finger on rather than anything more substantial when suffering an arm shot.

I also kind of want there to be a hefty risk to combat - part of my goal being to really make a character ask: "Is it worth risking it going into this fight?"

The cost of money for spells is also intentional: A character may need to deal with the loss of a hand for an entire adventure; or the loss of an eye. These can be good RP hooks.

That said the system also makes some assumption that the DM is going to do what's best for their particular campaign; including if necessary, tossing the rules in a given situation.

The third point about wizards:

True, unfortunately. However they're already at a power level that's so high that this doesn't really make them any stronger - it just more keenly illustrates the difference. (That is: The wizard wasn't going to get hit under the normal rules, he isn't now either. It's just that getting hit hurts a lot worse).

How one deals with that will vary by campaign, but myself, I'm thinking I will be sticking to the lesser spellcasters:

Namely, Beguiler, Warmage, Dread Necromancer, Warlock, Healer, and likely several other more narrow caster types; including a couple I may create myself. I *may* allow Sorcerer and Favored Soul as well; but might impose some special restrictions on them; depending.

That and as a DM, I am very very quick to quash abilities that trivialize combat. Not ones that are merely effective, but rather things that "I cast spell X; there is no practical means for them to harm me." kind of things.

It's not ideal; but it's always helped keep the melee'rs in a better position.

----

All that said - you aren't necessarily wrong either. These are issues I'm keeping a close eye on; but in particular the 2nd concern, I really want to test this out before deciding that it's too risky. (If I make it too easy, then it's merely a clunky system taped on to an already sometimes clunky system... of course if it is too risky, then there are other problems too.)

Roundabout way of saying "Yeah, it's a potential issue, I'm keeping my eye on it. But without testing I'm not sure."

@Ifeus >.< Sorry I didn't get to your question sooner, I missed it reading the thread last time.

I'm *considering* borrowing 4th editions "You get your Con Score added to your HP at first level" thing.

The main concern there, is that it's going to mean that at lower levels, I have to push them a little harder. So it's a "we'll see".

I think I may run a test dungeon at some point soon solely to test the system out, and if it proves far too lethal, tone it back a bit from that point.

mistformsquirrl
2009-06-29, 03:54 PM
You should mention it alters critical damage then, to make it more clear.

<'x'> it actually does; but I can see where the confusion is coming in.

The two examples immediately below the rule statement make it pretty plain (same example I gave you actually); but you are right that the actual rule statement only says "Damage"; so I'll fix that.

*fixes*

*edit*

Want to thank everyone again for the feedback btw >.<b Even if it seems I'm not acting on something you point out right away - seriously, it's helping. I've got a list here of all the issues people are bringing up, and when I test the system later, I'm going to be keeping an eye on these things and try to have possible solutions already worked out in case they really are a problem.

So seriously, much thanks <^-^>b you make me a happy squirrel and a happy DM.