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Thrawn183
2009-06-27, 10:35 AM
So, I've always considered a TPK to be a situation where literally every character is killed.

On the other hand, I recently DM'd a session with 5 10th level PC's. In attacking a pair of aboleths and their minions, 1 died, 2 were enslaved and the other 2 managed to flee the battle. Now, as far as I'm concerned, that isn't a TPK. It's also something that the players should be able to solve in character, after all the enslaved characters only need a protection from evil spell to be cast upon them to rejoin the fight for good. I thought it could be really interesting to see how the surviving members dealt with the problem. I mean, it was even a good chance to swap out characters, having PC's recruited to help out with the rescue mission take the place of old PC's that have decided to retire after the horror of being enslaved by an aboleth.

Apparently, some of my players felt differently. Interestingly, the players that considered it a TPK also described it as wiping, at which point I realized that they were the WoW players of the group, though that may or may not be related at all to the manner in which a raid group in WoW wipes.

Tallis
2009-06-27, 10:47 AM
That situation is niether a TPK or a wipe, it's just a loss. TPK means everyone is dead, the adventure is over for that group. As long as there are still living group members the situation can be reversed.
I play WoW also; again, a wipe means everyone is dead.
It sounds to me like your group just wants a do-over because they're too lazy to fix a bad situation. You'll have to decide for yourself if I'm right since you know them and I don't.

Thajocoth
2009-06-27, 10:50 AM
TPK... It's an acronym for Total Party Kill... TOTAL. Like the cereal. Kill == Dead.

There were 2 survivors. That is not a TPK because the Party wasn't Killed Totally.

Now, if 3 died and 2 were enslaved, I would call it a TPK because while those 2 are not technically dead, there's not really any hope left of them being returned to the hands of the players. They're dead mechanically.

Or... If 2 died, 2 were enslaved, and 1 was absent that session. I don't count absences in the Total.

Saph
2009-06-27, 11:01 AM
This sort of thing happened so frequently to our group that we came up with a special acronym for it.

TPK is a Total Party Kill. This is where every character is dead.
EDD is an Everyone's Dead, Dave. This is where every character but one is dead. "Where is everyone?" "They're dead, Dave." "Who is?" "Everyone, Dave." "What, Todhunter?" "Everyone's dead, Dave." (This happened three times, if you're curious).

Your situation wouldn't qualify for either, so I'd just call it a loss.

- Saph

Tsotha-lanti
2009-06-27, 11:07 AM
Yeah, it's just a defeat, and a pretty mild one at that. Two PCs MIA and recoverable, one PC KIA and recoverable. At that level, they can afford resurrection, and if they had a divine caster they could do raise dead themselves - death is no longer an excuse. They just need to use some brains.

Callista
2009-06-27, 11:12 AM
If they're complaining about that, they don't want to be in one of my games. I've pulled the slavery card twice, and both times they got out of it. Second time they started a rebellion and completely changed the power dynamics in the region. You've got wimps for players, or something!

mistformsquirrl
2009-06-27, 11:20 AM
That situation is niether a TPK or a wipe, it's just a loss. TPK means everyone is dead, the adventure is over for that group. As long as there are still living group members the situation can be reversed.
I play WoW also; again, a wipe means everyone is dead.
It sounds to me like your group just wants a do-over because they're too lazy to fix a bad situation. You'll have to decide for yourself if I'm right since you know them and I don't.

Agreed with this wholeheartedly. (I don't play WoW anymore, but I'm a longtime MMO vet)

A TPK is: Everyone is dead, or incapable of any form of participation in the campaign (ex: Imprisoned via the spell, permanently dominated, etc...).

A situation like this - players can come back from it. The dead character can be raised, and the enslaved ones can be helped.

To avoid a potentially boring set of sessions for the characters who would be inactive - let them build some temporary PCs to aid in the rescue attempt. Some of those temporary PCs might just become main characters or helpful NPCs, depending. Likewise some of the rescued PCs might just retire after such an experience (or the dead one may not return).

shadzar
2009-06-27, 11:29 AM
TPK = Total Party Kill

One situation kills the entirety of the player party.

Raewyn
2009-06-27, 12:52 PM
I disagree that wipe = everyone's dead. I've heard my raid leader call wipes when just one or two mission-critical people have died. At this point, the rogues vanish, hunters feign death, and paladins cast Divine Intervention on someone who can resurrect. (Granted my experience is more with raids, but I've seen all of these tactics used in five man dungeons as well.) To me, a wipe occurs when you've lost enough people (one way or another) that it is no longer possible to complete your objective. At this point, those who aren't dead do what they can to get the group up and running as quickly as possible (by either not dying themselves or saving a rezzer from death).

So by that definition, your WoW players are right; their group just wiped. The group lost enough members that it could no longer possibly continue with the objective and they chose to flee and not die themselves. At this point, just like in a WoW raid, it's their responsibility to pick themselves up, get more members if needed, and have another go at it.

bosssmiley
2009-06-27, 12:58 PM
I recently DM'd a session with 5 10th level PC's. In attacking a pair of aboleths and their minions, 1 died, 2 were enslaved and the other 2 managed to flee the battle.

One dead, two enslaved, two escapees? That's no TPK. It's just "business as usual" in the adventuring trade. :smallamused:

Quietus
2009-06-27, 01:02 PM
The way I look at things, a TPK is any situation where all, or at least nearly all, of the party becomes unplayable. For example, in the group I run with on Mondays, we have around sixish players who show up regularly. If we all raid an area and I'm the only one who survives, I'd consider that a TPK, but not a game ender; Sure, I got away, but unless I can somehow recover their bodies (not necessarily out of the question), the party I had before is dead, and I'll be seeking a new one to complete the mission. If the mission is one that's important to me, of course.

kjones
2009-06-27, 01:11 PM
Here's the difference between a TPK and anything that anyone else is describing. (Including Saph's EDD, which is quite clever.)

If there's at least one person from the original party remaining, it's at least somewhat plausible to continue the adventure - the survivor recruits new party members and sallies forth to succeed where last they failed. It can be hard to avoid metagame-y concerns here, since the players know what they're getting into but the character's don't. But you can, without too much suspension of disbelief, pick up where you left off and keep going.

And this is assuming that the dead party members are non-recoverable. If the survivor can recover the bodies, and can swing for raises for the rest of them - you're back in the game. (There's also True Resurrection, of course.)

If the entire party is dead, it's not just the characters that are dead - it's the adventure. It's hard to create a plausible reason for a completely different group of people to pick up where the first group left off.

Quietus
2009-06-27, 01:27 PM
It's also possible, however, that even if one person survives, it could be considered a TPK - a "technical" party kill. In my above post, for example, if the reason I was on that quest was for the benefit of my teammates, not my own drive, I could just as easily turn to the DM and say "Zetris returns to the swamps, and spends the rest of her life rebuilding them after they were trampled by the war."

The whole party isn't dead, but those who did survive are no longer involved. Hell, he could just as easily have the king conscript a new group of people from the ranks of his army to try their hand at what we just failed at... same quest, but it still ended in a TPK. The fact is, if the party is entirely different (and to me, one old character plus five new ones is an entirely new party), then you had the rough equivalent of a TPK, no matter how you look at it.

RagnaroksChosen
2009-06-27, 01:50 PM
We play by a rule that igf 50% of the players wipe without the resources to resurect(we ususaly play low end games <6) then we switch up games.

kjones
2009-06-27, 01:54 PM
I guess you could say that if an encounter results in all of the characters in that party no longer being played, then it's effectively a TPK.

I still like my definition.

Haven
2009-06-27, 02:13 PM
I do not approve of these tergiversations (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SeriousBusiness).

"Total Party Kill" means just that: everybody in the party was killed. Anything else is just "we decided to stop playing for reasons besides a TPK". Nothing wrong with that, of course, unless you decide to call it a TPK; that's just using the words incorrectly.

Decoy Lockbox
2009-06-27, 04:27 PM
TPk = total party kill, period.

We once had a fight that left everyone in the party dead, and the rogue alive with 1 HP and zero healing surges. It was an extremely Pyrrhic victory, but not a TPK.

Elfin
2009-06-27, 07:21 PM
TPK=total party kill
Not a single PC is left.:smallfrown:

lsfreak
2009-06-27, 07:46 PM
Apparently, some of my players felt differently. Interestingly, the players that considered it a TPK also described it as wiping, at which point I realized that they were the WoW players of the group, though that may or may not be related at all to the manner in which a raid group in WoW wipes.

It would serve as an example of a WoW wipe, but not a TPK. A wipe happens when there are too many people dead to stand a chance; there is no possible way to pull out of it without spending too many resources (battle rezzes, etc). At that point, there is no point in continuing the battle and it saves time to get everyone killed, get back in and rebuffed, and continue trying. A wipe is "We're giving up because it's pointless to continue."

In D&D, you always have a chance. You can get hirelings, you can pay spellcasters, you can try and find crafty ways to free your companions or retrieve the bodies, or at least enough to get things done. If your players call something that happens in D&D a "wipe," smack them. Because D&D doesn't work like that, you don't give up because something becomes difficult and time-consuming, you find a way through it.

shadow_archmagi
2009-06-27, 07:58 PM
use some brains.

They were captured by aboleths, not illithids

MickJay
2009-06-27, 08:14 PM
If it's difficult and time consuming, it's an adventure, and where's adventure, there's loot and XP :smalltongue:

Stormthorn
2009-06-27, 08:18 PM
What was described in the OP was a wipe, but not a TPK. The party wasnt killed in its totality but the mission was a wash so they might as well have all died if it was an MMO.

FoE
2009-06-27, 08:55 PM
But if tomorrow, it turns out we got smacked down
If we're dead, our hit points worn away,
Then sorry, dude, you won't be coming back now,
One death sucks but six spells T-P-K.

'Nuff said.

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-06-27, 09:15 PM
I define Total Party Kill as all the party dead, their bodies consumed by charnel fire, their souls trapped in soulgems then used up as XP for the BBEG's item crafting.

In short the party isn't just killed, it's totally killed.

SadisticFishing
2009-06-27, 09:29 PM
Yep. Total kill. I've been a part of one, once, and they're not very much fun D:

It's when the DM doesn't plan enough to have a realistic Deus Ex Machina in place to save your asses :D

Jayngfet
2009-06-27, 09:43 PM
TPK is starts with T for total. Until everyone hits -10 the dice will still be rolling.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-06-27, 09:46 PM
Yep. Total kill. I've been a part of one, once, and they're not very much fun D:

It's when the DM doesn't plan enough to have a realistic Deus Ex Machina in place to save your asses :D

Or when the party is just playing stupid and hoping the GM will hand them a DeM to bail themselves out of the problem their poor and in cases idiotic RP and game style have put them in.

SilverClawShift
2009-06-27, 09:47 PM
In my own personal definition?

If one person manages to crawl their bloodied and battered frame away from the fight, stabalize before dying, heal via prolonged rest to positive hitpoint totals, and limp their way to the nearest town?

The fight is still on.

Reroll, 3d6, in order. Make of it what you can, and bring HELL to those who would stop you.

*edit*

My group uses 26 point buy by default. My point remains.

Je dit Viola
2009-06-27, 09:49 PM
I call a TPK what happens when everyone playing has to get a new character.

If they are all either dead/imprisoned, you could roleplay a prison escape. Unless that's impossibe and they have to create new characters. In which case, it's TPK. In my opinion.

SilverClawShift
2009-06-27, 10:25 PM
I call a TPK what happens when everyone playing has to get a new character.

Exactly.

It's called a Total Party Kill for a reason.

Telonius
2009-06-27, 11:34 PM
I'd start by asking a few questions here. For the survivors, what sorts of characters are they playing? Would their character feel honor-bound to help the surviving comrades? Can they live with the guilt of knowing that they've abandoned them to slavery? If there's a Paladin, LG Cleric, or Knight among the survivors, there should be a pretty simple default answer to that. Even if not, remind the players that combat might is not the only way to solve problems. "Encourage" them if necessary - the slavers also have captured some new and/or notable NPC, and a rescue party is on its way. (Good way to re-introduce dead guy if he doesn't expect a resurrection).

Set up some encounters within the slaver train - that is, give the captured PCs something to do. Make it an explicitly social problem. New/important NPC has some information about the head slaver, or knows how the PCs could sow discord among the slavers. Use the results of this to modify what happens when the rescue party overtakes them.

Dixieboy
2009-06-28, 12:01 AM
Exactly.

It's called a Total Party Kill for a reason.

Or

Team
Polymorph
Katastrophe

yes
i was never really good with abbreviations

Anyway: I disagree with those saying that a Wipe = Everyone dead.
Death isn't really much of a problem in D&D
No
The real kicker is when it's not even death, you just have absolutely no way of retrieving them
EVER.

Your entire team just got teleported to the ninth layer of hell to be the personal bitches of Asmodeus himself...
That's a Wipe

Orc killing us?
Meh
Raise dead and it's over.

shadzar
2009-06-28, 04:33 AM
Your entire team just got teleported to the ninth layer of hell to be the personal bitches of Asmodeus himself...

No, because you can still keep playing.

TPK means what it means. Total Party Kill, just like every other abbreviation has a specific meaning: PC, NPC, BFG, etc.....

Thrawn183
2009-06-28, 09:23 AM
Yeah, in the capital city the characters were operating out of, there were 3 dragons, a colossal gold, a colossal red and a huge silver. The dragons owned competing banks and could basically provide any service if you could pay, had family members that could pick up the contract in the event of your death, or were willing to risk your soul/owe a big favor to a red dragon.

I even had the red dragon plane shift to make a negotiation with a dead PC in an earlier session.

Really, my WoW players just whine too much.

Dixieboy
2009-06-28, 12:15 PM
No, because you can still keep playing.

With new sheets that is :smallamused:

kjones
2009-06-28, 12:56 PM
I'm not sure that I agree with the proposition that death isn't a big deal, but even then, a TPK means that there's nobody to retrieve the bodies, or spring for the resurrection in the first place.

shadzar
2009-06-28, 12:58 PM
With new sheets that is :smallamused:

Quick mass teleport or dimensional shift out and its like nothing ever happened. :smallwink:

If you are still alive it isn't a TPK.

If they were on a BBQ spit in the Nine Hells then it is closer to a TPK than being just there and free to act.

Dixieboy
2009-06-28, 01:04 PM
Quick mass teleport or dimensional shift out and its like nothing ever happened. :smallwink:

If you are still alive it isn't a TPK.

If they were on a BBQ spit in the Nine Hells then it is closer to a TPK than being just there and free to act.

waaaaaaaait

You saying you could just dimensional shift to get away from a GOD?
From his OWN PLANE?

Maerok
2009-06-28, 01:07 PM
Total Party Kill
When the party has been totally killed. If someone is not dead, the party has not been totally killed. Therefore it is not a total party kill.


The situation leading up to a TPK can be described in numerous ways.

shadzar
2009-06-28, 02:41 PM
waaaaaaaait

You saying you could just dimensional shift to get away from a GOD?
From his OWN PLANE?

:smallconfused: Yup.

Dixieboy
2009-06-28, 03:26 PM
:smallconfused: Yup.
:smallmad:

Teln
2009-06-28, 07:25 PM
Yeah, in the capital city the characters were operating out of, there were 3 dragons, a colossal gold, a colossal red and a huge silver. The dragons owned competing banks and could basically provide any service if you could pay, had family members that could pick up the contract in the event of your death, or were willing to risk your soul/owe a big favor to a red dragon.

I even had the red dragon plane shift to make a negotiation with a dead PC in an earlier session.

Really, my WoW players just whine too much.

Good Lord, that is dripping with plot hooks. I'm correct in assuming that these banks would be willing to extend a True Resurrection?

And yeah, your WoW players are whiny brats. A limitless source of healing and revivals, with built-in plot hooks to boot? You're spoiling your group rotten!

Nerocite
2009-06-28, 08:20 PM
TPK is the point of no return.

Colmarr
2009-06-28, 09:00 PM
EDD is an Everyone's Dead, Dave. This is where every character but one is dead. "Where is everyone?" "They're dead, Dave." "Who is?" "Everyone, Dave." "What, Todhunter?" "Everyone's dead, Dave."

Red Dwarf, am I correct? I can even hear Holly and Lister in my head...

Dervag
2009-06-28, 09:06 PM
So by that definition, your WoW players are right; their group just wiped. The group lost enough members that it could no longer possibly continue with the objective and they chose to flee and not die themselves. At this point, just like in a WoW raid, it's their responsibility to pick themselves up, get more members if needed, and have another go at it.So... a "wipe" is just a bizarre arbitrary word for "loss" or "defeat?"

Saph
2009-06-28, 09:23 PM
Red Dwarf, am I correct? I can even hear Holly and Lister in my head...

Yep. Our group started quoting the whole thing whenever it happened, which was regularly. :)

Holly: Good morning, Dave. It is now safe for you to emerge from stasis.
Lister: Haven't I just gone in?
Holly: Please proceed to the Drive Room for debriefing.
Lister: Where is everybody, Hol?
Holly: They're dead, Dave.
Lister: Who is?
Holly: Everybody, Dave.
Lister: What, Captain Hollister?
Holly: Everybody's dead, Dave.
Lister: What, Todhunter?
Holly: Everybody's dead, Dave.
Lister: What, Selby?
Holly: They're all dead. Everybody's dead, Dave.
Lister: Petersen isn't, is he?
Holly: Everybody is dead, Dave.
Lister: Not Chen?
Holly: Gordon Bennett! Yes! Chen, everybody. Everybody's dead, Dave.
(long pause)
Lister: Rimmer?
Holly: He's dead, Dave. Everybody's dead. Everybody is dead, Dave!
Lister: Wait a minute. Are you trying to tell me everybody's dead?
Holly: (muttering) Wish I'd never let him out in the first place.

- Saph

Indeed.
2009-06-28, 09:28 PM
So... a "wipe" is just a bizarre arbitrary word for "loss" or "defeat?"
In a sense. The way I see it, if they go back to free their friends it was a wipe. If they accept it and move on, it was a loss.

The term "wipe" is an old one, and by now it's a bit of an idiosyncrasy in places where it doesn't belong, but I like to take it literally: Wipe the slate clean and start over. Try the same thing, but with less suck.