3.5-Improving the fighter

[Deepblue706]

Ooh! You know what'd be awesome?

Add as an optional rule that you can pick any class feature out of any other fighter fix as a bonus feat! Well, so long as it makes sense as a feat, anyway. An Art of War would probably work, but the entire Warblade casting progression probably wouldn't be an appropriate single feat. One level of Warblade-equivalent progression might be a good feat, though.


Isn't that basically the Generic Warrior (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm#warrior)?

[Frosty]

Except the Generic Warrior doesn't get enough feats.

[Indon]

Isn't that basically the Generic Warrior (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm#warrior)?

The idea of the Generic classes is to make every class feature into a feat or feat chain. That's pretty tricky.

My idea only functions with a small subset of classes which have flavor similar to that of the Fighter, and in many cases have their class features in neat, feat-size bites, making the process of featification exceedingly smooth and full-bodied.

[Hat-Trick]

Armor mastery as a feat would be nice. I don't get why only knights can run around at full speed in full plate.

[Yora]

Defender
Prerequisites: Dodge, Mobility, Dex 13.
Benefit: The area threatened by the character increases by 5 ft. Whenever an enemy within the threatened area provokes an Attack of Opportunity, the character can make a free 5 foot step as part of the attack. He can only make the 5 foot step if he actually performs the Attack of Opportunity, but does not have to move straight towards the provoking enemy and can also move to block his way. This feat does not increase the actual range into which the character can make melee attacks.
Special: If the character has the Combat Reflexes feat, he can take a free 5 foot step as part of each og his Attacks of Opportunity.

Also, I give the benefit of the Spring Attack and Shot on the Run feat to all characters. If a character takes the feats, he can make all his attacks during any points of his movement. This does however not apply to casting spells, so a spellcaster can't come out of cover, cast a spell, and hide again during his turn. This change doesn't help spellcasters at all, but is very neat for all martial characters.

[Roderick_BR]

another thing that would need to be fixed, if we're going with the feat fix approach, is to make feat trees longer, and have them give bigger pay offs with each successive feat. Right now, the longest feat tree out there is the whirlwind tree.

There's the Weapon Focus/Weapon Specialization/Greater Weapon Focus/Greater Weapon Specialization/Weapon Mastery/3 feats based on weapon damage (slashing/puncturing/bludgeoning)/Weapon Supremacy.
And there goes almost all your fighter's bonus feats to gain.... +4 attack/+6 damage, and a few abilities.
That's why I give these feats for free as "class features" in the odd levels.
You feel the dead levels, and give the character some cool stuff, though not overpowered.

And AFTER that, then you fix the feats. I want to try the ones from Pathfinder.

[Gnomo]

There's the Weapon Focus/Weapon Specialization/Greater Weapon Focus/Greater Weapon Specialization/Weapon Mastery/3 feats based on weapon damage (slashing/puncturing/bludgeoning)/Weapon Supremacy.
And there goes almost all your fighter's bonus feats to gain.... +4 attack/+6 damage, and a few abilities.
That's why I give these feats for free as "class features" in the odd levels.
You feel the dead levels, and give the character some cool stuff, though not overpowered.
And why isn't better to give plain more bonus feats on those same levels?

If the player wants to take Weapon Focus -> Specialization -> Greater Focus -> Mastery -> Greater Specialization -> Damage type special feat -> Supremacy, he will do it that way, if not he will just take other feats.

Consider this:

Fighter
{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special fix 1|Special fix 2

1st|
+1|
+2|
+0|
+0|Bonus feat|Weapon Focus

2nd|
+2|
+3|
+0|
+0|Bonus feat|Bonus feat

3rd|
+3|
+3|
+1|
+1|Bonus feat|Weapon Specialization

4th|
+4|
+4|
+1|
+1|Bonus feat|Bonus feat

5th|
+5|
+4|
+1|
+1|Bonus feat|Class feature ???

6th|
+6|
+5|
+2|
+2|Bonus feat|Bonus feat

7th|
+7|
+5|
+2|
+2|Bonus feat|Melee or Ranged Weapon Mastery

8th|
+8|
+6|
+2|
+2|Bonus feat|Bonus feat

9th|
+9|
+6|
+3|
+3|Bonus feat|Greater Weapon Focus

10th|
+10|
+7|
+3|
+3|Bonus feat|Bonus feat

11th|
+11|
+7|
+3|
+3|Bonus feat|Greater Weapon Specialization

12th|
+12|
+8|
+4|
+4|Bonus feat|Bonus feat

13th|
+13|
+8|
+4|
+4|Bonus feat|Special damage type based feat

14th|
+14|
+9|
+4|
+4|Bonus feat|Bonus feat

15th|
+15|
+9|
+5|
+5|Bonus feat|Class feature ???

16th|
+16|
+10|
+5|
+5|Bonus feat|Bonus feat

17th|
+17|
+10|
+5|
+5|Bonus feat|Weapon Supremacy

18th|
+18|
+11|
+6|
+6|Bonus feat|Bonus feat

19th|
+19|
+11|
+6|
+6|Bonus feat|Class feature ???

20th|
+20|
+12|
+6|
+6|Bonus feat|Bonus feat[/table]

Compare my proposal (Special 1) with yours (Special 2), you see that with the bonus feats you can do exactly the same, or better, you can do whatever you want.

How's giving static feats, that will force the character to commit to a single weapon, better than just leaving the option open for the player to choose what he wants?

[Zeful]

And why isn't better to give plain more bonus feats on those same levels?

Because it really only helps fighters with every splat available, so they can maximize the use of their feats. Not the core fighter. If the fix can't work in core, then its not a fix at all.

[Frosty]

So give them a choice. Like how Rogues can pick special abilitues from level 10 on *or* gain a bonus feat.

[Gnomo]

Because it really only helps fighters with every splat available, so they can maximize the use of their feats. Not the core fighter. If the fix can't work in core, then its not a fix at all.
And exactly, how does the fighter with a feat every level doesn't work in core?

You think we haven't thought this through?

In core, you have like 90 general feats. If you play with Psionics this number increases to almost 110, If we subtract the general feats that are related to spellcasting classes (Natural Spell, Spell Penetration, Spell Focus, Extra Turning, etc) you got the list reduced to more or less 70 from the three core books and to like 90 adding the general feats from the psionic stuff of core (which can be also useful to the fighter: Stand Still anyone?).

In core you have 48 fighter feats, Yes, the feats that are so directly related to combat that are marked as fighter bonus feats are exactly 48. Though "Greater Manyshot" is the only feat in the Psionics stuff marked as fighter bonus feat.

So... if this fighter fix has access, through 20 levels, to 27 or 28 (human) feats in total, from a total close to 90, how is that exactly making this not work in core?

Want a core only fighter with pure fighter bonus feats?

Fighto, Human fighter 20 (made with 25 point buy).


{table=head]Ability|Base|Level|Total
Strength|14|2|16 (+3)
Dexterity|13|1|14 (+2)
Constitution|14|2|16 (+3)
Intelligence|14|0|14 (+2)
Wisdom|10|0|10 (+0)
Charisma|8|0|8 (-1)[/table]

{table=head]Level|Feat
Human|Combat Reflexes
Level 1|Blind fight
Fighter 1|Weapon Focus (x)
Fighter 2|Improved Initiative
Level 3|Point Blank Shot
Fighter 3|Power Attack
Fighter 4|Weapon Specialization (x)
Fighter 5|Combat Expertise
Level 6|Leadership: Pegasus (cohort)
Fighter 6|Improved Trip
Fighter 7|Mounted Combat
Fighter 8|Greater Weapon Focus (x)
Level 9|Rapid Shot
Fighter 9|Improved Critical (x)
Fighter 10|Ride-by Attack
Fighter 11|Spirited Charge
Level 12|Greater Weapon Specialization (x)
Fighter 12|Precise Shot
Fighter 13|Improved Unarmed Strike
Fighter 14|Mounted Archery
Level 15|Quick Draw
Fighter 15|Improved Grapple
Fighter 16|Improved Sunder
Fighter 17|Improved Disarm
Level 18|Dodge
Fighter 18|Mobility
Fighter 19|Spring Attack
Fighter 20|Whirlwind Attack[/table]

And that's choosing fastly, with just the PHB... and even then many other feats could have been squeezed into the build instead of those, tell me exactly how is this not working on core?

[Zeful]

And exactly, how does the fighter with a feat every level doesn't work in core?Because it doesn't actually change the fighter. He's still reliant on magic items/powerful feats for his power. Still has the same problems with the same spells he had before. All you've done is give a small boost in the core fighter's versatility. Versatility isn't power. The fighter in your post can still be shut down by any one of the dozen core wizard tactics (infinite wish, forcecage, timestop-ploymorph-smash, etc.) just as effortlessly as before. If your fix could remove even one of those tactics from working effectively then I would consider it a good first step.

Can the fighter you posted defeat a buffed Level 18 wizard-in-dragon's-clothing 50% of the time on his own?

[Indon]

Because it really only helps fighters with every splat available, so they can maximize the use of their feats. Not the core fighter. If the fix can't work in core, then its not a fix at all.

Even in Core alone, such a Fighter is more powerful and versatile than any other noncasting class - barring UMD exploitation, anyway.


The fighter in your post can still be shut down by any one of the dozen core wizard tactics (infinite wish, forcecage, timestop-ploymorph-smash, etc.) just as effortlessly as before.

If you want a caster, then do as I suggested earlier in this thread - reflavor the Cleric, call it a Fighter, and you're done.

[Hat-Trick]

What does a Fighter being beaten by a caster make it a bad fix?

[Zeful]

Even in Core alone, such a Fighter is more powerful and versatile than any other noncasting class - barring UMD exploitation, anyway. More powerful, no. His greater versatility allows him to use his power to greater effect, but he's not actually more powerful.


If you want a caster, then do as I suggested earlier in this thread - reflavor the Cleric, call it a Fighter, and you're done.I never stated I wanted a caster, or suggested anything of the sort.


What does a Fighter being beaten by a caster make it a bad fix? Good question Hat. In 3.5 humanoid NPCs use the same system of development that players use. This means that important BBEGs can use the PC classes to make them more formidable (and DMs are recommended to do so by the DMG). Under these kinds of systems it's best to have all classes balanced to be able to effectively fight each other. Currently the fighter can't deal with a flying wizard on his own. He needs magic items with which to reach, hit, and damage the wizard. Further, despite being a game taking place in a world of magic (of varying levels of course), fighters are unintuitively and arbitrarily limited to solely mundane abilities, instead of truly Extraordinary or even Supernatural abilities.

With the fighter as written, your better off ending the Fighter Class' growth at level ten, when it's possible to start bending the laws of physics with skill checks, and giving them a feat every level if your not going to either a.) give them actual class features, or b.) ramp up the power of Fighter specific feats so that the class is worth taking for 20 levels.

[Gnomo]

Can the fighter you posted defeat a buffed Level 18 wizard-in-dragon's-clothing 50% of the time on his own?
Then your problem is not with the fighter, is with the wizard.

Answer me any of this questions:

Can the barbarian defeat a buffed Level 18 wizard-in-dragon's-clothing 50% of the time on his own?
Can the ranger defeat a buffed Level 18 wizard-in-dragon's-clothing 50% of the time on his own?
Can the monk defeat a buffed Level 18 wizard-in-dragon's-clothing 50% of the time on his own?
Can the swashbuckler defeat a buffed Level 18 wizard-in-dragon's-clothing 50% of the time on his own?
Can the scout defeat a buffed Level 18 wizard-in-dragon's-clothing 50% of the time on his own?
Can the Fighter 2/Barbarian 1/PsyWar 2/Exotic Weapon Master 1/Ronin 2/Frenzied Berserker 10 with a lance mounted on a pegasus defeat a buffed Level 18 wizard-in-dragon's-clothing 50% of the time on his own?
You don't have a problem with the fighter, you have a problem with magic beating everything else, if that's the problem then is better to just limit magic. You can:

Ban problematic spells (Rope Trick, Polymorph, Solid Fog, True Seeing, Mind Blank, Gate, Divine Power, Holy Word, Miracle, etc).
Do not allow feats and classes that empower casting beyond any limits.
Reduce spells per day and power points (1 less spell per spell level and 2 pp less per manifester level should be enough).
Increase the level of the spells and powers (0 level spells are 1st level spells and such).
Force magic specialization (Specialist wizards choose 3 banned magic schools, Clerics of certain deity can only cast the spells approved by its deity, Psions choose 2 banned disciplines)
Make spell resistance available to every character (like with a feat or magic items that are easy to get).
Make casting defensively harder (like changing the concentration check DC to 20 + spell level or something different).
Increase the weapon damage (This will make attacks more dangerous and casters with low hp to fear attacks).

If you want to put the fighter in level with the wizard you will have to remodel something bigger than just the fighter class, the imbalance problem is not due to the lack of power of the fighter, it's due to the higher power level of the spells.

Or you might want to homebrew feats to ignore some spell effects:

Liberty of Movement
You are the personification of movement.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Escape Artist 4 ranks.
Benefit: When any magical effect would reduce your movement speed to less than your total you can make an Escape Artist check, with a DC of 10 + spell level, if you succeed said check you ignore the effect.
Special: A fighter can take Liberty of Movement as a fighter bonus feat.

Lively
You are the personification of liveliness.
Prerequisites: Con 13, Great Fortitude.
Benefit: When any magical effect would instantly slay you regardless of your hit points you gain a +4 competence bonus on the saving throw. If the effect doesn't allow a saving throw you are entitled to make a Fortitude saving throw to negate the effect, the DC of the effect is 15 + spell level equivalent.
Special: A fighter can take Lively as a fighter bonus feat.

Strong willed
You are the personification of force of will.
Prerequisites: Wis 13, Iron Will.
Benefit: Against all enchantment (compulsion) effects you can use your base attack bonus instead of your Will Save Bonus on the saving throw.
Special: A fighter can take Strong Willed as a fighter bonus feat.

Magic Resistance
You are the personification of resistance against magic.
Prerequisites: Character level 6th.
Benefit: You have spell resistance equal to 5 + your character level.
Special: A fighter can take Magic Resistance as a fighter bonus feat.

Improved Spell Resistance
Your powers negate magic like no one else's.
Prerequisites: Character level 9th, Spell Resistance.
Benefit: Your spell resistance value increases by 4.
Special: A fighter can take Improved Spell Resistance as a fighter bonus feat.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

There's actually quite a bit wrong with your proposed fixes. It's kinda funny.

For example:

Liberty of Movement
You are the personification of movement.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Escape Artist 4 ranks.
Benefit: When any magical effect would reduce your movement speed to less than your total you can make an Escape Artist check, with a DC of 10 + spell level, if you succeed said check you ignore the effect.
Special: A fighter can take Liberty of Movement as a fighter bonus feat.

1. Fighters have to cross class Escape Artist. Bye-bye, precious skillpoints.
2. Fighters wear heavy armor. Good luck making that Escape Artist check.

[Hat-Trick]

The spell resistance is seriously low as well. Any caster can make that more than 75% of the time. Try 10 plus character level, and make improved stackable with itself.

[Gnomo]

There's actually quite a bit wrong with your proposed fixes. It's kinda funny.
Well, it's not exactly thought out to be exclusive for fighters, just to present ways to beat magic effects. And I just made up the feat in a minute, don't expect it to be perfect for all tastes :smalltongue:.

The point is that, if you feel so annoyed by magic beating everything, do something that beats magic, is that simple, or simply do not allow spells, feats and classes that create such imbalances... or play 4th Ed., there magic is castrated to the point of non-existence.


The spell resistance is seriously low as well. Any caster can make that more than 75% of the time. Try 10 plus character level, and make improved stackable with itself.
I think a 25% chance of negating a spell is quite enough, that's the beauty of it, if you feel that it should be more you just increase it for your campaign.

[Hat-Trick]

I was thinking about a prestige class that gave abilities to completely negate/destroy magical effects due to almost psychotic unnerving laughter. Not really relevant because it doesn't fix the fighter.

[Gnomo]

Did you check if Occult Slayer [Complete Warrior] and (Illithid) Slayer [XPH and d20 SRD] do already cover the mechanics to create such character?

[Hat-Trick]

Not well enough. I'm thinking something along the lines as Disjunction as a full round action in the form of an unstoppable laughing fit that disrupts magic flow. Not just "I resist magic because I hate it."

[Gnomo]

Disjunction is one of the magic effects I'd ban out of my games in a heartbeat... but well, is your game.

[Hat-Trick]

Hey, I like the idea of the all powerful mage getting defeated by the laughing light fighter. I laugh all magic shuts down, if only temporarily. Solid fog that.

[Indon]

More powerful, no. His greater versatility allows him to use his power to greater effect, but he's not actually more powerful.
But he is slightly more powerful, should he apply his feats towards that purpose. It is mostly about versatility, though, since that's mostly what the Fighter needs.


I never stated I wanted a caster, or suggested anything of the sort.
You listed a number of potent spell combos. Feel free to name how any class can beat infinite wish loops, forcecage use, timestop/shapechange exploitations, etc, without either using a blatantly supernatural ability (Thus making it no longer the Fighter class in name) or a spellcasting mechanic (Thus making it no longer the Fighter class in fact).

If you want a class that can beat a caster in 3.5 D&D, you want a caster. If you want that class to be called the Fighter, then you want a caster that has been reflavored and renamed - You can go Warblade, for instance, or you can just take my Cleric-reflavoring suggestion which you can do just fine in core without needing any new books, and which will be more powerful than the Warblade anyway.

I should write out a flow chart for this.

Edit: and so, he did!

|
V
Do you want a more powerful Fighter?-----No------>Use the Fighter as written.
|
Yes
|
V
Do you care if the class------No------->Do you want to----Yes-->Rename the
uses a Vancian mechanic? buy a new book? Warblade.
| |
Yes No
| |
| V
| Rename the Cleric.
V
Do you want to give
the class a list of-----No----->Do you want the class----Yes--->Add two general
miscellaneous static to blow other noncasters feats/level, grant
abilities? out of the water? epic feat access
| | @level 10.
Yes No
| |
| V
| Add one general feat to
V each currently dead level.
Do you want to make an entirely
new fix based around your personal
perception of the Fighter's problems,---------Yes------>Great, then go do it,
that very few people will ever use? then post it on the net.
|
No, why would I do that?
|
V
Then use someone else's fix based
around their personal perception
of the Fighter's problems. Like
five people have posted theirs in
this thread and I'm sure you could
find others if you looked.