[3.5] Help! The Fighter is Loose!

[TaintedLight]

I've been DMing a game for the first time here, and so far things have gone very smoothly except for one thing. The campaign world is one in which the active practice of magic is forbidden and casters of all types (divine, arcane, and otherwise supernatural) are hunted and executed. Naturally, this lends a much more martial flavor to the party makeup. One player in particular has presented me with a bit of an issue here, though. I designed an encounter with a drow Ftr 2/Wiz 2 (MMIV 56) to be challenging but still beatable (enough AC boosters and fly would have pretty much broken the encounter). He was poised to make a serious mess of the party, but then this player (Ftr 6) pulled one over on me with Improved Trip. Now, I had clearly never read the entry on this feat well enough before since what he did just blew me away. Not only did he manage to trip my NPC (annoying, but not downright un-fun), he went on to make two critical hits on him with a scythe. In the same round. Before anyone points out the randomness of criticals, I know they can't be planned for but it still sucks :(.

As you can imagine, I felt like the whole episode was somewhat of a fiasco. One lousy feat basically ended the whole encounter in four rounds, before any serious fighting had had a chance to take place. I'm worried that this is a trend that will continue in the future if I am not very careful. The campaign has a focus on humanoid enemies, and the BBEG is an elf lich Wiz 11. How can I prevent him from dominating that last fight and any that come before it without even really trying?

Maybe I'm just complaining too much, but it feels like getting a +4 bonus to trip, using all remaining attacks in a round to pummel him at -4 AC each time once he's on the ground, getting a free swing at him once he stands up, and then getting to do it all over again on your turn is just some enormous BS.

[Gorbash]

Way too easy. Opponents could be large and have 4 legs, making them really hard to trip. Or be Dwarves.

Elf Wizard could... Fly for example, perfectly out of reach and untrippable, then dominate the fighter and make him trip the party.

[Tengu_temp]

A level 4 character with a very unoptimized build, against a level 6 party? I'm surprised it took them 4 rounds - it should have been 1-2.

As for actual advice - a smart caster never lets the fighters get in melee. He flies, summons minions, creates obstacles. Also, bear in mind that a lich is immune to criticals.

[AmberVael]

Maybe I'm just complaining too much, but it feels like getting a +4 bonus to trip, using all remaining attacks in a round to pummel him at -4 AC each time once he's on the ground, getting a free swing at him once he stands up, and then getting to do it all over again on your turn is just some enormous BS.

Trip is useful, but it is hardly overpowered.
You want your wizard boss to be immune to it? Levitate. Fly. Mirror Image, Greater Ironguard. There are all kinds of spells that can not only make the wizard be immune to trip, but nigh unbeatable but just a poor fighter.

The other thing is that the situation you speak of requires them to be in melee combat range with the fighter before his turn- otherwise he can't get a full attack. Character utilizing Spring Attack, thrown weapons, or other strategies can negate his ability to make a full attack, and thus greatly decrease his capability to use trip in such a manner.

There are also feats in Complete Warrior and other areas which allow people not only to negate the disadvantages of being Prone, but to stand up without using up an action. Good for the warrior type.

[Keld Denar]

Tripping can fail. There are lots of things that can give an NPC bonuses against tripping. Theres enough stability items in the MIC that stacked together can result in around a +15 bonus to counter being tripped or bullrushed, on top of the fact that a lot of monsters are large and/or have multiple legs. Then there are things the wizard can do to keep the fighter away from him like Evard's Black Tentacles, Solid Fog, Dominate Person, any number of teleportation abilities, utilizing difficult terrain and whatnot.

You are the DM, you call the shots. Don't take all of his toys away, though, since tripping is one of the very very VERY few things that a fighter can do that aren't "do more damage".

Trust us, its not over powered. What else are you looking for? Encounters that'll challenge him or something?

PS, if you want to give the party a challenge, sending 1 enemy of equal level tends to result in a slaughter of the enemy. Pad the encounter with minions (3-4 levels lower than the party), give the bad guy 1-2 even leveled friends, or advance him 2-3 levels above the party. Otherwise you WILL notice a trend of easily defeated "boss" encounters. Check out the Test of Might thread for some interesting ideas for a "boss" encounter, or just ask the community.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

The campaign has a focus on humanoid enemies, and the BBEG is an elf lich Wiz 11. How can I prevent him from dominating that last fight and any that come before it without even really trying?


Solid Fog.

[TaintedLight]

A level 4 character with a very unoptimized build, against a level 6 party? I'm surprised it took them 4 rounds - it should have been 1-2.

As for actual advice - a smart caster never lets the fighters get in melee. He flies, summons minions, creates obstacles. Also, bear in mind that a lich is immune to criticals.

Whoops, I meant Ftr 2/Wiz 5.

As for the flying tactic, I considered it, but I had previously used a similar monster against them (Minotaur of Legend MMII 214) which could fly, but I realized how perilously easy it would have been for the minotaur to float out of range and burn them all to death with its breath weapon, so I decided not to include flying enemies. I do like the dominate idea for the fighter, but they have no way of removing it if it works. That's a TPK.

[snoopy13a]

Improved Trip requires Combat Expertise and an intelligence of 13 as a pre-req. So, your fighter player is spending quite a bit for Improved Trip. It is two feats and putting 13 points into intelligence for a class with little skill points and class skills. Punishing him for it wouldn't be fair. Just add lots of mooks.

[Atelm]

Whoops, I meant Ftr 2/Wiz 5.

As for the flying tactic, I considered it, but I had previously used a similar monster against them (Minotaur of Legend MMII 214) which could fly, but I realized how perilously easy it would have been for the minotaur to float out of range and burn them all to death with its breath weapon, so I decided not to include flying enemies. I do like the dominate idea for the fighter, but they have no way of removing it if it works. That's a TPK.

If the party can't deal with flying enemies or learn to run away from obvious TPK situations, it is their own problem not yours. :smallwink:

[TaintedLight]

I've considered the angle that he needs Combat Expertise before, but frankly there is nothing wrong with that feat. He already has the highest attack bonus in the party (him, a scout, a rogue/fighter, and a monk all ECL 6) so he can afford to lose a bit of it for a tasty AC bonus. As for INT 13, he rolled pretty well at creation so that was a given from the start. He chose CHA as a dump.

What I really need is some help designing caster encounters that are hard but doable. Flight and a miss chance spell would spell disaster for the party since they have ZERO magic on their side, but clearly keeping him earthbound didn't work out either.

[Keld Denar]

Step 1: Win initiative
Step 2: Cast Evard's Black Tenticles
Step 3: Enjoy your live action hentai movie
Step 4: Go for tea.

[Tsotha-lanti]

Whoops, I meant Ftr 2/Wiz 5.

That's not an encounter. One CR 7 opponent against an ECL 6 party will inevitably get destroyed in one round. It's just a matter of how many actions the party is able to bring to bear on a single opponent.

You need to learn basic encounter design and give your NPCs basic tactics. A wizard doesn't let enemies get into melee - he puts things between them, whether it's mooks or summoned creatures, difficult terrain, or elevation (including fly and levitate). Just a well-chose summon monster spell can change an encounter like that from a joke into a challenge.

Trippers are not a big deal, frankly, especially against spellcasters - they just create a +4/-4 advantage for themselves. You can still cast defensively while prone just fine, AFAIK, and you shouldn't have let the opponent get into melee with you anyway. And trippers are almost entirely useless against opponents who aren't Medium or smaller bipeds. (Note that PCs are almost exclusively Medium or smaller bipeds. Hint. Hint.)

The criticals are irrelevant to everything and anything. They happen, and it can't be predicted.

Trip is a really basic tactic, and it sounds to me like you're just unused to your players actually doing anything effective, useful, or clever.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Step 1: Win initiative
Step 2: Cast Evard's Black Tenticles
Step 3: Enjoy your live action hentai movie
Step 5: Go for tea.

I think we all know what step 4 is :smallwink:

[Keld Denar]

I think we all know what step 4 is :smallwink:

Proffit?

Or wait...EEWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Tengu_temp]

I think we all know what step 4 is :smallwink:

You're a horrible person. I like that.

[Kyouhen]

I vote for a combination of everything above for when your lich fight happens. Give him a few skeletal wolves and zombie centaurs or something. Quadrupeds and large creatures for his undead minions. If the fighter uses his trip against everything he fights it's easy to assume the lich would have found out about that and prepared defences that won't fall (hehe, pun) so easily. Then do something like have the lich standing on a platform on top of some stairs and put one of the more unpleasant large undead sitting on them to keep your characters from getting up there. They want to trip the lich? Fine. But they've gotta get past something that refuses to go down first.

[Gnaeus]

So, essentially, you are removing all the most powerful classes from the PCs, but still using them as antagonists. Then when a PC picks a decent feat, you are complaining? Unless he has dungeoncrasher, he isn't even playing an optimized fighter build. Fighter 6 is poor. Maybe it would be better for you if he took weapon focus and skill focus perform?

I hope the fighter takes exotic weapon proficiency-spiked chain, Mage slayer, Pierce magical Concealment and Pierce magical protection, and that your entire boss fight consists of your lich failing to cast spells and being beaten on. That poor fighter earned it.

[Roderick_BR]

A level 4 character with a very unoptimized build, against a level 6 party? I'm surprised it took them 4 rounds - it should have been 1-2.

As for actual advice - a smart caster never lets the fighters get in melee. He flies, summons minions, creates obstacles. Also, bear in mind that a lich is immune to criticals.
Agreed. ONE single enemy with only 4 levels against a SIXTH level PARTY?
And a multiclass wizard without good enough spells to boot. He should at least be 6th level himself (ftr 3/wiz 3), and maintain his distance (for any level, standing close to a group able to jump on you is suicide). He could summon something, or use minions to stay between him and the group, snipping them from far, or buffing his own group. When everything else fails, flee.

So, yeah, one single feat ended the encounter because your villain was absolutely outnumbered, AND outpowered by a single character that is at least TWO levels ABOVE him. There's no way it would last.

[MisterSaturnine]

So, essentially, you are removing all the most powerful classes from the PCs, but still using them as antagonists. Then when a PC picks a decent feat, you are complaining? Unless he has dungeoncrasher, he isn't even playing an optimized fighter build. Fighter 6 is poor. Maybe it would be better for you if he took weapon focus and skill focus perform?

I hope the fighter takes exotic weapon proficiency-spiked chain, Mage slayer, Pierce magical Concealment and Pierce magical protection, and that your entire boss fight consists of your lich failing to cast spells and being beaten on. That poor fighter earned it.

Clearly not what the OP is saying. He just wanted a fight that was more climactic, and is worried about the tripping tactic compromising later fights and generally draining excitement from the game. Now other posters are giving suggestions on how to counter tripping without too much trouble, while keeping the fighter relevant.

No need to go to the extreme in your assumptions.

[AstralFire]

The topic is a sentence I never thought I'd read.

[Quietus]

It's also worth noting, you mentioned TWO crits, with a SCYTHE. Of course it went down fairly quickly, x4 damage is brutal.

That being said, I'll echo some of what's already been said : Use minions. Any spellcasting leader-type will know better than to let himself get outgunned and surrounded, this is why they have mooks or pets. Perhaps some of both. Lich BBEG with two death knights on advanced skeletal horses/nightmares, anyone? They work to keep you from their boss, you give him something to trip and keep the lich going for an extra round or two in the meantime.

[tenshiakodo]

Blur and Displacement. Both low level spells, easily used by your arcane enemies. Don't bother with any other defensive buffs. This will accomplish your stated goal of making things more climactic and still give the party a chance for success...a miss chance (haha, I'm so witty).

Seriously though, when even a critical threat can fail 20% of the time, or be reduced to a coin toss, your wimpy casters will survive melee threats longer, yet there's still the possibility for the one-shot kills that will make your players feel pumped up.

Too often I see game advice given on forums (no offense intended to anyone) quickly deviate into "do this, they'll be totally fudged!".

As DM's, it's imperative to remember we WANT the players to win most of the time. When they lose, or worse, characters die off, they lose interest. No interest = no game!

Can't have that. So I believe at least 9 encounters out of ten, you should LET THE WOOKIE WIN!

Let the players use their strengths to full effect, and feel all He-Manly. Then on the tenth encounter, let 'em have it. This isn't to say that DnD should be Candyland, but if a player has a tactic that works, don't arbitrarily take it away from him. Just find ways to make it a little more difficult from time to time.

Oh and one final tip; never, ever, EVER, use a single opponent against melee.

It will die way too fast. Always use numbers, it's much more entertaining to watch PC's get beat up by enemies several CR's below their level. : )

[AslanCross]

Step 1: Win initiative
Step 2: Cast Evard's Black Tenticles
Step 3: Enjoy your live action hentai movie
Step 4: Go for tea.

After my players saw the first ep of Tower of Druaga, I had to work really hard to prevent them from snickering or reacting whenever somebody cast black tentacles. -_- Especially with the female rogue who err, had a bad habit of ending up in compromising situations.

Anyway, OP: If it's the climactic encounter, you've got quite a bit of leeway to make the monster a lot stronger. My party of 5 lv 6 characters was easily able to take down an 11th-level warblade with the wizard barely doing anything.

While the CR may suggest it is an overpowering encounter, the PCs had the following in their favor:

1. More actions per round. This is the big one. For every massive wallop the boss dishes out, she takes five. Not a good trade.
2. The PCs can spread out if they don't want to take damage, while those who can take it will mob the monster.
3. Unless the monster is a cleric or druidzilla, it will usually only have access to a narrow skill set. The PCs have a wizard, a cleric, two dedicated melee characters and a rogue. That's not going to be easy to challenge.

Thus I offer the following tips:
1. I know it's a boss encounter, but never have the boss alone unless it's a truly enormous beast with reach and the ability to fling creatures away (via Awesome Blow or similar abilities). Usually having an arcane caster minion (a couple of levels lower) is very helpful and will prevent bosses from getting mobbed. The minion may not even be a good build, but harassing the PCs with scorching rays and magic missiles is sure to divide their attention. In your case the boss is a caster, so he could have a couple of dominated ogres as his mooks.
2. If the boss is Medium-sized, make sure it has a way of moving around and avoiding getting mobbed. Being mobbed by five bloodthirsty adventurers wielding deadly weaponry and spells is a very bad position for anything to be in.
3. Start from higher ground. You get bonuses from there.
4. Give the boss or his minions interesting ways to move around. A couple of ogres swinging from huge chains in the ceiling is not only awesome, but a good way of giving them mobility that he will not normally have.
5. Frustrating terrain. Moving platforms, deadly pit traps/chasms, what have you. A caster would be smart enough to have a lot of difficult terrain between him and potential intruders.

[holywhippet]

Mirror image is a good anti-tripping countermeasure.

[herrhauptmann]

Elf Wizard could... Fly for example, perfectly out of reach and untrippable, then dominate the fighter and make him trip the party.

1)Should the flying wizard be foolish enough to come within reach of the fighter predomination, the fighter CAN trip him. It's in rules compendium.

2)Also, give the wizard the skill tricks that allow him to stand from prone without an AOO.

3)The lich will likely be immune to crits, so that issue is gone as well.

4)+1 on mooks. Maybe just one big mook. Halfogre/halforog (Total ECL of +3, not sure what the CR would be), with spiked chain and a disarm build with locked gauntlets. It might be difficult for a PC to get that needed intelligence, but you're the DM, you can make it so he's got the required int. Maybe for fairness, don't give him an 18strength before racial bonuses.

If the fighter is really planning his trip build, he'll find the skill tricks to allow him to stand from prone. That way, when he fails a trip, he just falls over and stands back up as a free action. With the disarm build, he is screwed, and you can yell "How do you like it?"

Maybe make it a Tauric creature. Halfogre/orog as mentioned, with a huge sized quadruped or vermin.

[ImmortalAer]

The topic is a sentence I never thought I'd read.

Truth.

Someone with a complaint that the Fighter is doing too well. It makes me feel warm and fuzzy for all the meatshields out there.

[Keld Denar]

Someone with a complaint that the Fighter is doing too well. It makes me feel warm and fuzzy for all the meatshields out there.

See, now I read the thread title and initially thought that the DM was having issues with the fighter characters promiscuity. Now, I know Cha is usually a dump stat for some fighters, but if a player spent resources "enhancing" themselves, they should reap the benefits, right?

oh...wait...

[#Raptor]

Way too easy. Opponents could be large and have 4 legs, making them really hard to trip. Or be Dwarves.

Or be large and be Dwarves and be invisible... Duergar. :smallbiggrin:

Btw, we just had a thread like that recently, was about a tripping spiked chain half-giant fighter if I remember correctly.
If you search for it, im sure you'll find plenty of good advice there.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

I don't think you should hold back on strategies that your party can't currently handle (such as flight). For one, by level 11 they'll hopefully be more capable of handling crazy tactics like flight, illusions, and the dreaded grapple rules.

Also, if you want your lich to use tactic X on the players but fear a wipe due to player unpreparedness, use that tactic with a much lower-offense encounter. The party will either figure out a way to counter the tactic on the spot, or they'll at least figure out what they need in the future to counter it, and they won't get destroyed.

Barring that, tough but low-offense minions bring simple and effective battlefield control to your boss fight, and your players shouldn't be surprised at such a common tactic.

[erikun]

The topic is a sentence I never thought I'd read.
You must have missed the thread about the "overpowering" Scout a few months ago.

[Gaiyamato]

Minions.. where was this Wizards minions??

Even his Familiar??
A gish with Improved Familiar from comlpete Warrior can do ok.

Give him half a dozen low CR guards to hold the fighter for a round or two and peg a magic missile.

[Eldariel]

Whoops, I meant Ftr 2/Wiz 5.

As for the flying tactic, I considered it, but I had previously used a similar monster against them (Minotaur of Legend MMII 214) which could fly, but I realized how perilously easy it would have been for the minotaur to float out of range and burn them all to death with its breath weapon, so I decided not to include flying enemies. I do like the dominate idea for the fighter, but they have no way of removing it if it works. That's a TPK.

Don't they have Bows? Javelins? Anything of the sort? Every character worth their salt should have some basic capability to affect flying opponents, no matter how primitive. Twice so in a low-magic world where you can't have that Fly-spell from your friendly Wizard, or magic item.

You don't need to pull that many punches on them. Sure, don't play casters up to their given potential; they'd die. However, don't play them as drooling idiots either; a Wizard knows he can't beat a Fighter in melee so why the frack would he fight a Fighter in melee?


Tripping is the most efficient melee measure in existence. Thank God he does not use that -4 to Power Attack; can you imagine the carnage a Power Attack for 4 Scythe Crit would've caused? But seriously, he has a Scythe. He has Improved Trip. Scythe is a 20/x4 weapon! That means he has chosen to Crit rarely, but when he does, he absolutely evinscerates whatever he hits. That's a player's choice. Don't take him away from him.

He could also have picked up a Falchion and be critting three times as often, but for only x2 damage. Since he chose huge, rare criticals, you'll just have to accept that sometimes he's going to destroy his opponent. That's how critical weapons are built in this game.


But yeah, what do you expect happens when a Wizard ends up in melee? Do you expect him to beat up the Fighter with his Quarterstaff? That's not what Wizards do (although sadly enough, they could around level 7).

A Wizard really can't take hits; that's why his spell list contains a hundred spells to avoid taking hits. And frankly, the Wizard survived 4 rounds against being tripped and two x4 criticals. He deserves a ****ing medal; that's epic.


Short version: Yes, you're overreacting. He got lucky and he's built his character about as well as he can with the limitations in place (although it doesn't sound like he has quite enough damage output if two x4 crits aren't enough to drop a Wizard).

Stop underplaying your Wizards (although as said, don't play them up to their given potential or your party will never win!), stop fearing to challenge your players (just try, they can deal with flight; if not, tell them to starting being able to and they'll take the necessary steps), stop using solo bosses only 1 level higher than the party average (the guidelines in DMG state "4 levels", although with Wizards against a non-magic party, 1-2 will do provided they are single-classed and you know what you're doing) and stop worrying about random chance. Sometimes dice state the Wizard gets evinscerated. C'est la vie. It's not like it's a PC; don't fret his loss.

And yeah, you can have reach fighters against the party, you can have skirmishing archers against the party, you can have enlarged characters (through a Wizard casting Enlarge Person) against the party, you can have 4-legged/Dwarf opposition, you can have opponents with Steadfast Boots [Magic Item Compendium], opponents can just be horribly strong Barbarians or some such, etc. Tripping is awesome, but even it has its weaknesses, especially when PCs lack magical support.

[Another_Poet]

Whoops, I meant Ftr 2/Wiz 5.

This is still an inappropriately weak encounter. Might be OK for a guard or henchman but not a boss or long, climactic battle.

Loner NPC enemies need to have soem fascinating tactics (teleport away, illusions, battlefield control, secret death trap - SOMEthing) or 2-3 equally powerful friends or 2-6 low level minions to beinteresting encounters.



As for the flying tactic, I considered it, but I had previously used a similar monster against them (Minotaur of Legend MMII 214) which could fly, but I realized how perilously easy it would have been for the minotaur to float out of range and burn them all to death with its breath weapon, so I decided not to include flying enemies.

Well, that strikes me as a bad call. Flying enemies are great to use. Your PCs have options, too. Your PCs can spread out so they can't all be hit by a breath weapon at once (and remember the breath weapon has to recharge). And they can use ranged weapons to hit the flying creature. My own non-caster PCs love to try things like lassos, tanglefoot bags and nets to bring down flyers.

There are lots of deadly abilities in the Monster Manual and flying is not the strongest by a long shot. In any case to be a DM you have to get used to throwing deadly abilities at your PCs sometimes. It's up to them to figure out a solution. And doing so will be some of their best memories of the game.


I do like the dominate idea for the fighter, but they have no way of removing it if it works.

Sure they do:
-kill the caster
-use nonlethal damage to subdue the fighter (any weapon can deal nonlethal with a -4 attack penalty)
-Use items like tanglefoot bags to subdue the fighter
-Run away from the fighter till the spell duration is over (5 days, meh, no biggy)
-Put the fighter to Sleep or otherwise magically incapacitate
-Fighter creatively misinterprets the commands given by the wizard
-Dominate the caster who Dominated the fighter, make them give him up
-Trick the caster into ordering the Fighter to "take actions against its nature" and thus get "a new saving throw with a +2 bonus."
-In a worst case scenario, kill the Fighter.

This should not be a TPK.