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JellyPooga
2009-06-28, 01:41 PM
Shifters (Eberron Campaign Setting)...just why? I don't get them. Sure, I can dig the whole 'descendant of lycanthropes' schtick, but is it me or do their abilities just plain suck? I can't see any good reason to play them outside of fluff and even then I'd rather just play another race with a Lycanthrope Bloodline (UA).

It wouldn't be so bad if their Shifting ability was usable more than once a day, but being limited to less than a minute of whatever single ability they chose just doesn't seem enough to balance the complete lack of anything else going for them.

Someone please tell me the appeal of these peculiar creatures! There must be something I'm missing...

FoE
2009-06-28, 02:06 PM
Furry appeal?

Morty
2009-06-28, 02:09 PM
I have to say that this question occured to me as well. I mean, they're not bad, just... meh. Sort of like Elven Subrace #2331.

Adumbration
2009-06-28, 02:17 PM
Well, I once made a 1st level shifter barbarian with landspeed of 85 ft (as a move action). It's good for at least stacking on rages on top of each other.

Let's see if I can dreg it up... Longstrider Shifter Whirling Frenzy barbarian with Longstrider Elite, Shifter agility and Dash. At 1st level it was 2/day for 8 rounds. Flaws were in use, of course.

Zaq
2009-06-28, 02:18 PM
I agree that they're really underpowered until you start taking tons of Shifter Feats... at which point you're accepting that you're not spending feats on, you know, your class and related abilities.

I think a reasonable homebrew fix would be to increase the number of times per day you can Shift based on hit dice... maybe 1/2 HD per day, or 1/3 HD + CON? Just kind of brainstorming here.

Certain Shifter-types can nova decently (for example, a Shifter totemist who chooses her soulmelds wisely can get even more natural weapons than a vanilla totemist, and we all know what that means), but I still don't see that as being worth the drawbacks.

The Longtooth Elite trait is superb for a Shifter who has a different means of gaining a bite attack (Wild shape, soulmelds, the Hunger domain, or something else), since unlike most other "{Shifter Trait} Elite" feats, it doesn't specify "while shifting." Whether this is RAI is debatable. (Whether it is worth building a character around is ALSO debatable.)

Overall, though, they seem much more like a gimmick than a playable race. They just don't get enough to distinguish themselves. I've heard that some of their racial sub levels are interesting, but I haven't really thought about them very hard, so I have no opinion of my own to give on them.

Yora
2009-06-28, 02:22 PM
I think it's all "cultural". Eberron is a world very rich in fluff, it breathes it. I think it's quite clearly not designed for optimization-campaigns and written with the intention to take several sub-optimal choices, just because it's cool to do it.
If you want a really strong barbarian or ranger character, shifter may not be a very good choice. But I think it's rather intended the other way round: "Hey, this fluff is cool. I really want to see how a member of this race fares in the world of Eberron."
I'm not a huge Eberron fan, but the basic idea behind shifters sounds pretty cool to me from a roleplaying perspective. Maybe it doesn't live up to its full potential, I don't know about that. But when it was written, I'm pretty sure the idea was "I think this concept really sound cool."

It's funny. The first five post all try to figue out the Shifters combat stats. :smallbiggrin:

Xallace
2009-06-28, 02:32 PM
Saurian Shifters (from Dragon) get two shifter traits in addition to all of the regular shifter features. That's a little better mechanically, plus Saurian Shifters are also descended from were-dinosaurs, which is campaign-explodingly awesome.

Seems like a step in the right direction to me.

wadledo
2009-06-28, 02:34 PM
Shifters have access to the only druid PrC that's both decent and not cheese.
That is all my argument.

JellyPooga
2009-06-28, 02:37 PM
Shifters have access to the only druid PrC that's both decent and not cheese.
That is all my argument.

Which is...?

mistformsquirrl
2009-06-28, 02:38 PM
I think it's all "cultural". Eberron is a world very rich in fluff, it breathes it. I think it's quite clearly not designed for optimization-campaigns and written with the intention to take several sub-optimal choices, just because it's cool to do it.
If you want a really strong barbarian or ranger character, shifter may not be a very good choice. But I think it's rather intended the other way round: "Hey, this fluff is cool. I really want to see how a member of this race fares in the world of Eberron."
I'm not a huge Eberron fan, but the basic idea behind shifters sounds pretty cool to me from a roleplaying perspective. Maybe it doesn't live up to its full potential, I don't know about that. But when it was written, I'm pretty sure the idea was "I think this concept really sound cool."

It's funny. The first five post all try to figue out the Shifters combat stats. :smallbiggrin:

Agreed <^_^> This is precisely why I personally enjoy them. (Then again I'm the weirdo who took Dreamsight Shifter on a Fighter. >.> *shrug*)

TheThan
2009-06-28, 03:40 PM
Comic book appeal

Wanna play wolverine? You can
Wanna play spiderman? You can

Worira
2009-06-28, 03:53 PM
It's funny. The first five post all try to figue out the Shifters combat stats. :smallbiggrin:


Well, yes. That's because that's what the topic is about.

Gnorman
2009-06-28, 04:34 PM
Which is...?

Moonspeaker (Races of Eberron).

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-06-28, 04:40 PM
The 1/day shifting isn't that great, but if you take the Shifter feats instead of regular ones, it turns into something you have up every battle. And since most of the Shifter feats are the same as real feats(Shifter Multiattack, etc), except for also boosting your shifting, it's not a real issue.
Even without that, though, you get: +2 Dex, -2 Int, -2 Cha. Not great, but decent stat boosts for a meleer.
Low Light Vision
+2 to skills no one cares about
1/day +2 to another stat, and an addiional benefitNot great, certainly no Lesser Assimar or Dwarf, but not a half-elf either. Mechanically, it's unique among races, and it's got decent fluff. I've never played one, but I've been mostly forced into FR, so I've never had the opportunity. Not a useless race, certainly.

AslanCross
2009-06-28, 04:41 PM
I find Shifters do really well as Warblades, especially of the Tiger Claw variety. Longstride Shifter +Longstride Elite + Shifter Acrobatics + Max Jump Ranks = Never fail a jump check again.

Devils_Advocate
2009-06-28, 05:02 PM
Like half-orcs, shifters aren't bad for some builds, but would be more balanced without their Int penalty. A race that's supposed to be part human shouldn't get screwed on skill points like that, darn it!

Sinfire Titan
2009-06-28, 05:07 PM
Shifter Totemists don't care about half of their feats, and can afford to spend them on other Shifter feats to improve the Shifter abilities. In fact, one of the good races to play as for a Totem Rager is Shifter, due to the Con increase.

T.G. Oskar
2009-06-28, 06:52 PM
For once, if you're playing Moonspeaker or Bloodclaw Master, your shifting gets slightly improved in terms of length and usage per day.

Still: most of the Shifter feats are impressively good, even though you get less slots for other feats. A Shifter Rogue will find itself challenged between raising its Sneak Attack choices (with Craven and whatnot), or raising its racial traits (say, with Longstrider, or Cliffwalk, or even Longtooth). Classes that have a lot of feats, such as Fighter, or that gain a specific amount of bonus feats and don't need much general feats afterwards (Ranger, for example), gain loads of benefits from shifter feats.

A Shifter could be argued that gains access to Warshaper, which grants it nifty benefits especially if it has a natural attack trait, such as Gorebrute, Longtooth or Razorclaw.

The Elite versions of the traits are more often than not great (Longtooth causes Con damage, Swiftwing allows you limited flight, Razorclaw allows either pounce or rage), and the mechanic is innovative, as well as a great incentive to take racial feats.

If you gain access to Oriental Adventures (or the Dragon update to the book), I'd point out at Shapeshifter. It's almost custom-made for Shifters, as it allows multiple shiftings per day, spellcasting that may very well benefit a Ranger (much like Paladin/Cleric/Fist of Raziel benefits a Paladin), and Wildshape (which usually isn't gained by Rangers unless you take the variant) Couple with at least four levels of Warshaper, and you can pretty much remain transformed as much as you want.

Finally, do not forget the benefit of the (shapechanger) subtype. Returning to base form as a move action is a plus; evensomore when you're transformed into something you may not like.

RTGoodman
2009-06-28, 08:09 PM
I never really paid them any attention in 3.x, but in 4E I like Shifters quite a bit for the mechanics. The ability to use their racial powers as an Encounter power is good, and they make particularly good members of several classes (Fighter, Barbarian, Ranger, Cleric, and several others). Were I to play one, I'd probably refluff it as a normal lycanthrope, but really I'm pretty neutral about the normal fluff.

Danin
2009-06-29, 02:11 AM
Well, the fact that I'm currently rolling up an entirely shifter party might speak to my bias a touch, but I happen to like them. I enjoy the flavor, and the role playing applications are great, especially if you give their entry in races of eberron a read.

While I admit they certainly aren't the most powerful race in the world, they do have their place. Their racial substitution levels are solid, they have access to the moonspeaker prestige class, and the shifter feats are all quit solid. They are certainly on par with elves in my opinion.

Granted, this is coming fro the guy who is still waiting on playing his Worg knight and his goblin ranger...

sonofzeal
2009-06-29, 02:30 AM
I once used a single ECL4 Shifter as a recurring foe against an entire team of ECL4 players, and he rather dominated. I went archery-rogue, using the shifter breed that gets a climb speed, allowing him to Rapid-Shot Sneak-Attack from some high perch and use his excellent maneuverability to leverage terrain to his advantage and retreat after the party begins mounting a counteroffensive. It's only a significant strategy at low levels where climb speeds are a big advantage, but it still worked out really well.

PrGo
2009-06-29, 04:03 AM
A Shifter could be argued that gains access to Warshaper, which grants it nifty benefits especially if it has a natural attack trait, such as Gorebrute, Longtooth or Razorclaw.

A Shifter CAN become a Warshaper, since he is Humanoid with (Shapeshifter) subtype, which is enough to become one. That class alone makes shifter an awesome race in my eyes :smalltongue:

T.G. Oskar
2009-06-29, 04:11 AM
A Shifter CAN become a Warshaper, since he is Humanoid with (Shapeshifter) subtype, which is enough to become one. That class alone makes shifter an awesome race in my eyes :smalltongue:

Probably haven't seen Shapeshifter then.

I know it's capable. My second delve into D&D was with a Beasthide Shifter Ranger/Fighter/Warshaper/Weretouched Master. He was mostly the group's healer, and he delved both into two weapon fighting (with the Fighter bonus feats) and ranged combat. I would have gone Cliffwalk, but somehow I was more attracted by higher AC.

He reached around level 13-14 before the campaign ended. He had already the Morphic Weapons ability, and I was setting up Extra Shifter Trait (Longtooth) and Longtooth Elite for the wounding bite attack. Had a legacy weapon composite longbow, a Brilliant Energy Scimitar, a Psychokinetic Crysteel Shortsword, and assorted weaponry around. Plus, did I mention he had good Charisma, and hence by roleplay he was entitled to Leadership? And had a residential tower in Sharn, a tattoo shop, and a bunch of people following him?

Those were good times.

Adumbration
2009-06-29, 04:16 AM
Probably haven't seen Shapeshifter then.

I know it's capable. My second delve into D&D was with a Beasthide Shifter Ranger/Fighter/Warshaper/Weretouched Master. He was mostly the group's healer, and he delved both into two weapon fighting (with the Fighter bonus feats) and ranged combat. I would have gone Cliffwalk, but somehow I was more attracted by higher AC.

... Exactly how did you heal with him?

T.G. Oskar
2009-06-29, 04:20 AM
... Exactly how did you heal with him?

Handy use of Wands of Cure Light Wounds. Basically, having no healer meant that I had to take the healing duties, so the DM pretty much waived the caster level checks being spell-trigger items, I could use them. I dropped right around level 6 Ranger, though.

bosssmiley
2009-06-29, 04:55 AM
Comic book appeal

Wanna play wolverine? You can
Wanna play spiderman? You can

*crowns The Than King of Thread*

All must kneel before his perfect summation of Shifters as fanboy bait.

Warforged give you magic robot.
Shifters give you Wolverine.
Kalashtar give you magic psi-bishies.
Puttyfaces give you...errr... ??? :smallconfused:

Asheram
2009-06-29, 05:35 AM
Warforged give you magic robot.
Shifters give you Wolverine.
Kalashtar give you magic psi-bishies.
Puttyfaces give you...errr... ??? :smallconfused:

Puttyfaces give you Mystique, when we're going on the X-men franchise with Wolverine.
Kalashtar... I could really see a female kalashtar as Phoenix now.

Pie Guy
2009-06-29, 07:56 AM
Is it just me, or does anyone have an urge to start an Xmen campaign?

Doc Roc
2009-06-29, 08:28 AM
Shifters are fantastic, quite powerful, and nicely embedded in the eberron world. I'm not sure I grok what you aren't seeing, so maybe a stronger\longer explanation would help?

Person_Man
2009-06-29, 10:16 AM
The pre-errata Weretouched Master was ridiculous. 5 levels of the Bear form gave you something like +16 Str, +2 Dex, +8 Con, claws, Improved Grab, Frightful Presence, and 2 bonus shifter feats.

Chronos
2009-06-29, 11:30 AM
A Shifter could be argued that gains access to Warshaper, which grants it nifty benefits especially if it has a natural attack trait, such as Gorebrute, Longtooth or Razorclaw.Remember, though, that Warshaper's abilities, awesome though they are, only apply when you're in a form other than your normal one. Shifting may or may not qualify for that, but even if it does, that's still only a few times per day.

UserClone
2009-06-29, 12:44 PM
I've always preferred Changelings to Shifters for Warshaping goodness, as they can stay in a form other than their normal form all day long.

Devils_Advocate
2009-06-29, 01:02 PM
Puttyfaces give you...errr... ??? :smallconfused:
Hedonistic wish fulfillment? At least that's what I see as their appeal. That or being able to play a duplicitous con artist who lives on the fringes of society. Or both!

Also, being able to easily disguise yourself as anyone is very convenient, but for that it's debatable how much more useful a changeling is than a hat of disguise.

UserClone
2009-06-29, 01:08 PM
Hedonistic wish fulfillment? At least that's what I see as their appeal. That or being able to play a duplicitous con artist who lives on the fringes of society. Or both!

Also, being able to easily disguise yourself as anyone is very convenient, but for that it's debatable how much more useful a changeling is than a hat of disguise.

Er...Warshaper? Of any class?

The Gilded Duke
2009-06-29, 02:18 PM
Shifter Wilder Substitution Levels. Be a Wilder with access to egoist powers. Wild Surge your metamorphosis. And then while you are in your higher hit die then you should normally have access to form, Shift to gain a fly or swim speed. It is also important to note that Shifting is a free action.

T.G. Oskar
2009-06-29, 03:21 PM
Remember, though, that Warshaper's abilities, awesome though they are, only apply when you're in a form other than your normal one. Shifting may or may not qualify for that, but even if it does, that's still only a few times per day.

Which makes Shifting ever more important. Also, consider the synergy within the specific natural attack-based shifting traits and the Morphic Weapons ability. Mixing INA, the Morphic Weapon, and the (trait) Elite feats for the Longtooth, Razorclaw and Gorebrute; you'll have a natural weapon that qualifies as two size categories larger. With Bloodclaw Master, you can do a lot while shifting.

The point is that Shifting is really meant to be a "last-resort" trait, which isn't part of the kind of gameplay often championed. Changelings benefit for a longer time, but unless they are capable of using their acquired natural weapons with effectiveness, they seem to lack a bit. Certainly, there's the other abilities which make the class itself awesome (the Morphic Reach for 10-feet attacks, the Morphic Body for extra Strength and Constitution, Morphic Healing for the extended fast healing, and Morphic Immunity for the immunity to stunning and crits), but the Shifter gains a bit more of benefit. Consider that, through EST or through their main trait, they can get a lot of benefit out of Morphic Weapons, and they absolutely don't need to take the last bit of the class, aside from the fact that they gain extra Constitution (and hence a bit more time shifting, more HP while transformed, and extra Fortitude).

However, and this is the point that's often ignored; the Warshaper abilities are active whenever the character transforms. From Baleful Polymorph, to Polymorph Any Object, you can gain the benefits of those abilities. Whenever you aren't in that contact, you can use your normal shifting abilities.

As well, I mentioned (perhaps as a passing note) the Shapeshifter PrC, which is another class which highly benefits the Shifter. Although it needs some interpretation (depends on whether you consider shifting as an alternate form), it's pretty brutal in adding shifting attempts (in theory, between one to ten more uses per day); you could argue that the class ability counts as a virtual shifter feat (one extra round per PrC level, one extra use/2 levels) Plus, it grants Wild Shape and A Thousand Faces, for extra benefit. It also grants half caster progression, which is good if you want to allow the Ranger to dip into Druid for casting ability.

Another is Razorclaw Shifter and Psychic Warrior, or the Shifter Wilder substitution levels, and use the claw-based psionic powers while shifting. With things such as Prevenom, Truevenom, Duodimensional Claw, Expansion and whatnot, you can really make a brutal claw-based shifter.

Coidzor
2009-06-29, 07:17 PM
So shifters only have anything going for them after about level 8 then? :smallconfused:

Sinfire Titan
2009-06-29, 07:25 PM
So shifters only have anything going for them after about level 8 then? :smallconfused:

The same cannot be said of the PHB High Elf.


Remember kids: -2 Con is a bad idea!

Coidzor
2009-06-29, 07:56 PM
The same cannot be said of the PHB High Elf.


Remember kids: -2 Con is a bad idea!

Indeed, it sacrifices survivability at low levels for a +1 which is easily replicated or made up for at high levels.

Shifters being a physically oriented race, it confuses me that they should seem to be sup-bar for the level-ranges where physically oriented characters are effective.

wadledo
2009-06-29, 08:09 PM
No, they're no worse than other melee characters at low levels.
In fact, they're probably better, seeing as how they've got some decent natural weapons.