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TheThan
2009-06-28, 01:50 PM
My human sorcerer just hit level 8. Which means I get my first 4th level spell. Now I’m building this guy to be a Batman style sorcerer (or is that Robin?), which means I fill a support role. So I need another spell that would fit this. However our last session I nearly got killed by a group of umber hulks. So I also have my own life (and the preserving there of) to consider. Books allowed thus far are core + PBH II. though I think I can talk him into allowing other books if I’m lucky.

The party consists of a rogue and a druid (shape shift variant) as the only consistent party members, we’ve also had two different fighters, a cleric and a beguiler at different times. They come and go randomly because the DM is using a magical macguffin to explain why the party keeps changing. (Think valkyrie profile ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valkyrie_profile)).


My current spell list looks like this:

Cantrips

Resistance
Acid splash
Flare
Ghost sound
Prestidigitation
Daze
Light
Tough of fatigue

1st level spells

Grease
Mage armor
Color spray
Ray of enfeeblement
Enlarge person


2nd level spells

bulls’s strength
rope trick
Summon monster II


3rd level spells

Ray of Exhaustion
Fly


4th

Dimension door



For a 4th level spell I’m thinking of black tentacles, dimension door, solid fog, and Resilient Sphere. I only get one spell, and I'm not quite sure which one I should pick up first. I’m a little wary of black tentacles and solid fog because they can affect my entirely melee based allies as well as whatever we’re up against, but they are good control spells as well. I'm at a loss here, anyone have any ideas as to which one i should take? got any other ideas?

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-06-28, 01:51 PM
Orb of Fire/Cold/Acid
Not from PHB2

Well, there's always Enervation, though you'll have a -4 to hit if people get in melee with the target.

Keld Denar
2009-06-28, 01:57 PM
Get EBT. It'll have the most impact at this level. Solid Fog is good, but at this level, most things will be just as easily countered by EBT. When things start getting MUCH bigger in the next few levels, EBT becomes less attractive, but still useful, and Solid Fog comes into its own.

Yea, EBT

(what, no Haste? BLASPHEMY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111!!!!eleven!!!!)

Quietus
2009-06-28, 02:05 PM
Charm Monster is also a winner, if it fits your theme. Umber Hulks are rough to fight... why not make one your friend?

Zaq
2009-06-28, 02:06 PM
Are you happy being a horribly overpowered and/or broken character that gives arcane casters a bad name? If so, then take either Polymorph or Celerity.

If you want to be more reasonable... well, Solid Fog is pure gold, but you need to make sure that you have a means of either buffing your allies to get through it or taking care of the foes in there yourself. Without either of those, it can be more problems than it's worth. Keep that in mind.

Enervation is always worth considering. I hardly need to point out that a no-save, just-suck spell really never goes out of style, and it's of course a prime candidate for metamagic.

Some kind of dispelling capability might be useful. I'm not willing to say it should be a higher priority than, say, EBT, but something with the ability to dispel is kind of important. (Slashing Dispel is a 4th-level spell, though again, I'm not willing to say it's more important than what you've already listed. Maybe next level when you get another 3rd-level spell, though?)

Of the four spells you listed, I'd say EBT is probably the best bet for now, but none of them would really be a bad idea. If the Druid doesn't have a way of getting Pounce, Dim Door will be the greatest straight damage increase, but that may or may not be your actual goal. Your spell list tells me that you understand that there's more to combat than just damage.

But yeah. Just keep your allies in mind, and consider Enervation as well, because it's an awesome spell.

aje8
2009-06-28, 02:27 PM
It comes down to Enervation vs. Evards. I guess I'd suggest enervaiton as spells which scale well are extremely important to the sorcerer and it does scale well. Additionally, it's great for meta-magic, espically Split Ray.

Zeta Kai
2009-06-28, 02:33 PM
It comes down to Enervation vs. Evards. I guess I'd suggest enervaiton as spells which scale well are extremely important to the sorcerer and it does scale well. Additionally, it's great for meta-magic, espically Split Ray.

QFT. Enervation is one of the best all-purpose de-buffs in the game.

Keld Denar
2009-06-28, 02:37 PM
IMO, Enervation is better than Evards late game, but mid game, where he is, i'd say Evards will have a much greater effect. Things don't aren't sooooo tough yet that Evards makes a huge dent, and he sure doesn't have the 6th level slots to metamagic Enervation. He'll get another 4th at level 9, and can pick up Enervation (or Solid Fog, or Dim Door, all excellent choices) then, but I think Evards will have the biggest impact NOW, at this level in the game.

Much much much much later, when you get the option of swapping out 4th level spells, I'd drop Evards for something else, because by then it will be rather obsolete, but for now? Its the game winner.

TheThan
2009-06-28, 11:34 PM
The biggest problem I’m worried about is hindering my own party. Right now, the druid (our main warrior) uses kite tactics. His shape change form grants him mobility and tremendous movement speed (like 60ish ft a round) I think he has spring attack as well. He moves in, attacks and moves out, forcing the thing he’s trying to kill to chase him (trusting in mobility to avoid damage from the AOOs). Though now that he’s getting a form with multiple attacks his tactics may change. He doesn’t rely heavily on magic, just general healing and other multi-purpose spells. I think he threw out an entangle once. He mostly stays shape shifted and relies heavily on the movement increases.
In any case, EBT can nab him, and screw up his ability to fight. However I can use it to tie up enemies he’s not fighting. So it’s not fully useless. however I really like enervate, which ruins just about anyone’s day so that might be an option.

Sinfire Titan
2009-06-28, 11:56 PM
DDoor first. It's utility and a life saver. Evard's second, if possible get a Runestaff with the spell after you finish leveling up. Third spell should be either Enervation or Scry.

At your level, DDoor is a 720ft answer to a TPK, a locked door, an army, and damn near anything else related to travel/escape.

HamsterOfTheGod
2009-06-29, 12:22 AM
The biggest problem I’m worried about is hindering my own party. Right now, the druid (our main warrior) uses kite tactics. His shape change form grants him mobility and tremendous movement speed (like 60ish ft a round) I think he has spring attack as well. He moves in, attacks and moves out, forcing the thing he’s trying to kill to chase him (trusting in mobility to avoid damage from the AOOs). Though now that he’s getting a form with multiple attacks his tactics may change. He doesn’t rely heavily on magic, just general healing and other multi-purpose spells. I think he threw out an entangle once. He mostly stays shape shifted and relies heavily on the movement increases.
In any case, EBT can nab him, and screw up his ability to fight. However I can use it to tie up enemies he’s not fighting. So it’s not fully useless. however I really like enervate, which ruins just about anyone’s day so that might be an option.

Black tentacles is still good as you say but so is enervate (and so are charm monster, confusion and fear). It's a tough choice but at least no matter how you make it, you won't make bad choice.

Having said that enervate does seem to fit your theme, party and current opponents.

One other thing to consider is that at 8th level you can replace one lower level spell no?

If so then you might want to replace color spray for magic missle or simmon monster II for scorching ray unless you are getting good mileage out of those spells still.

Brom
2009-06-29, 05:59 AM
Are you trying to be well rounded? If so, you're lacking a few things IMO:

- Mobility
- Antimagic
- Diplomacy/Mind affecting

I wouldn't do Evard's OR Enervation. Fact of the matter is, you have debuffs and battlefield control AND save or dies, all out the ass.

I mean, just look at your first level spell selection:

* Grease
* Mage armor
* Color spray
* Ray of enfeeblement
* Enlarge person

You have Grease, battlefield control. Mage Armor, a buff. Color spray, an AoE save or die. Ray of Enfeeblement, a debuff. An Enlarge Person, BSF buff.

At this point, get Charm Monster or Dimension Door, or a divination spell. I'd think Arcane Eye. Invisibility Greater, Polymorph, and Shadow Conjuration are all winners that are hugely versatile and impactful. My personal opinion would be Charm Monster, because Sorcerer's have the charisma to make it work and it scales awesomely. I mean, facing fact, not everything has access to mindblank and while Charm Person can be restrictive because a great deal of enemies are nonhuman, Charm Monster goes right around that requirement. Dragons? Ogres? Minotaurs? Big Stupid Fighter's that aren't PC's that you can throw at your enemies.

Charm Monster allows you to make a charmed minion do literally anything given a successful opposed charisma check, and even if you fail, it will perceive you as a friend and act as such.

Charm Monster would be my pick, but everything else is good. On a side note, your spell list...

=/

In your position, I'd instead have:

Cantrips

* Message
* Mending
* Mage Hand
* Ghost sound
* Prestidigitation
* Detect Magic
* Light
* Arcane Mark

1st level spells

* Grease
* Mage armor
* Silent Image
* Summon Monster I
* Protection from Alignment


2nd level spells

* Invisibility
* Shatter
* Blindness/Deafness


3rd level spells

* Dispel Magic
* Fly

4th level spells

* Charm Monster

Check it out. You now have a great deal less overlap in your spells. You're very flexible. Charm Monster can allow you to do diplomacy. Fly can do...Fly things. Dispel Magic, 'cause if you're DM's worth his salt, something is magical somewhere. Took out color spray for blindness/deafness and switched Spray for Silent Image. Silent Image can replicate tons of things - thus, it's a prime Sorcerer Spell. Blindness/Deafness is still a major save or die, not HD dependent, doesn't do a cone, doesn't make you get nearly as close, and lets you single out a single enemy. Grease is now your AoE save or die, because let's face it, tripping and being flat footed and prone makes you just as unable to act as being blasted into a stunned state or unconscious. I was very surprised you didn't have invisibility. The utility of it is hard to refute. Shatter is for the moments where you can't Fly or Charm your way into a situation. Summon Monster I is for trapmonkeys and flanking partners for your party. Protection from Alignment replaced Enlarge Person. It blocks mind control, boosts saves, and ups AC in a way that stacks. It is also something more than just your melee fighter will want - it's something everyone would like. And it helps defend you.

IMO, in your position, I would be asking to repick spells through retraining. I mean this not as an offense to your judgment, just that I don't think you're best served with what you have.

valadil
2009-06-29, 09:34 AM
I'd lean towards dimension door. It will save your hide and it can be used offensively. Some combats I'll get behind the fighter and dim door him from enemy to enemy so he never has to move and can always full attack. If there's a rogue, I'll get him at my right hand and the fighter at my left and dim door so there's an enemy right in front of me, but flanked by our tank and sneak attacker. What's more batman than that?

Killer Angel
2009-06-29, 10:16 AM
Enervation and Dim door are two good spells.
I won’t suggest Charme monster cause I don’t like charme spells.
But if you are looking for battlefield control, and are afraid to mess with your teammates using solid fog or EBT (which don’t stack so well with your grease), try pick Wall of ice. Even in open field, in the emispherical version, you can use it in almost every situation.

TheThan
2009-06-29, 11:09 AM
The umber hulks were basically a random encounter the Dm threw at us because the new party fighter was getting board, since she was just introduced to the game and had no real idea what was going on, therefore no real chance to RP. I’m not really worried about them reappearing (since their dead and all).

But we do have a nemesis in the form of some Australia bounty hunter guy, he’s decked out in magic gear and can leap very far (like 100+ feet), we’ve managed to drive him off (using his jump to get away) but he’s still a tough customer. We’ve got one of his weapons (thanks to the druid’s heat metal spell). Recently he’s shown up with allies so I’m taking into consideration them.

In addition to that, I don’t need Message or anything like it. Because we have permanent telepathy on us (dm plot hook), it seems to have limitless range so I can communicate with my teammates silently and without the use of spells. I plan on picking up invisibility when I hit 9th level. I suspect we’ll level up again before we reach our next destination. Summon monster II came in very handy against a group of owlbears we ran across so I’ve realized its usefulness though I might switch it out for something like minor image, but I’ve yet to decide what I want do. I might try to talk my Dm into letting me get Shivering Touch for my next 3rd level spell. But I’m not sure he’ll go for it.

Keld Denar
2009-06-29, 04:11 PM
I might try to talk my Dm into letting me get Shivering Touch for my next 3rd level spell. But I’m not sure he’ll go for it.

Don't do it, for this way madness lies!

Seriously, go read that "Too Broken to Use" thread. Of all the crap out there, Shivering Touch and Ray of Stupidity are 2 of the spells I advocate banning above ALL ELSE. Yea, above Celerity, yea, above Polymorph, yea, above Morde...well, nothing is above Mordy's...but right after Mordy's comes Shivering Touch and Ray of Stupidity. Why? Partly because they are so low level that they have the potential to break the game across so much more time than Shapechange, which, by the time you get it, is only one of a couple dozen stupidly broken things you can acomplish.

Stare not into the Abyss, less the Abyss stare into thee.

Elminster1
2009-06-29, 09:06 PM
I really have to say, for a Sorceror, I'd go with Enervation. Its a no save debuff that stacks with multiple castings. It smashes casters, of anykind, and it's very general, which means it has a broad spectrum of use accross the board.

Evard's Balck Tentacles are badass, that's for sure, but more tricky, since you have to have either have some aggro dmagae spell to fisnish them, archers, or just let them get crushed to death, but it could take a while.

Polymorpth is awesome. I mean, Hydra's? Among other things that fly. Come on, it's ridiculous, lol. If you ever considering entering melee, this would be the way to do it, especially as a Sorceror with all your castings.

Even though no one mentioned it, one of the Orbs is nice as a Sorceror. I have a friend who plays a Sorceror and rides Orb of Electricity really hard. Might want to consider that. It's basically the only kind of direct damage spell I'd consider, for no save, no SR and a secondary effect. Top notch for direct damage anyway.

In the end though, I'd pick an offensive spell, absolutley beyond a doubt. It's better to lay the smackdown than rely on defensive things in D&D, unless it's some kind of trickery. Other than that, lay the beats.

shadow_archmagi
2009-06-29, 09:20 PM
Don't do it, for this way madness lies!
above Morde...well, nothing is above Mordy's..

Disjuntion or mansion? Oh wait both are broken. Is that why Morde was neutral? Because all he did was invent broken spells?

Keld Denar
2009-06-29, 09:48 PM
Disjuntion or mansion? Oh wait both are broken. Is that why Morde was neutral? Because all he did was invent broken spells?

Disjunction. Mansion is just a Rope Trick with free Unseen Servants. If I wanted luxury, I wouldn't be an adventurer... Disjunction is the broken one, since there is no chance to resist getting all your buffs stripped, takes WAY too long to roll all the saves for your gear, and for some reason, its AoE. Who's brilliant idea was that? Seriously? But thats an item for another thread. The "Too broken to use" thread, to be exact.

I still support Evards as your 1st 4th level spell. I just think its too good at that level to avoid. It'll get less useful as you go on, but by that time you'll be able to swap it out. Enervation is good, but at that level, as I've stated before, Evards rules the roost.

Brom
2009-06-29, 10:32 PM
Unless your DM lets you rearrange the spell list, I'm of the opinion you already have all the offensive utility you need, of both battlefield control, debuff, and save or die. Stay away from offensive spells, dude. Get something that rounds you out. You're not a Warmage, purely for combat. Acknowledge your potential to be useful in more than just a fight.

TheThan
2009-06-29, 11:12 PM
Shivering Touch is broken, but it’s the only broken one I plan on using. I figure if I can rob a bad guy of his dex, My fighter allies can happily stand there and smash it to bits (what fighters do best).

My Dm doesn’t like casters that much (loves fighter types) so I don’t expect to come across much in the way of wizards and other spell casters. So Enervate won’t be quite as useful as it would be under another Dm. I’ll probably still get it, but at the moment I’m looking at Dimension door. As for the next level, well we’ll see what the situation holds.

There won’t be gaming this weekend due to my Dm going to Anime Expo. In fact i think almost all the other players are going. I'm not, don't have the funding and am not that interested in Anime any more. so its a good weekend for other gaming... like warhammer.

TheThan
2009-07-11, 12:22 PM
Ok first off sorry for the thread resurrection and the semi-double post.

Anyway, I finally got to try out my new 4th level spell. I decided to go with Dimension Door to start with. I must say I used it to great effect.

Our party consisted of
Druid (shape change variant)
Rogue
Beguiler
Sorcerer (me)
Bard
All 8th level


Encounter time!

The combat encounter for the evening was a group of five hill giants, and frankly we owned them hard. We were alerted to their presence thanks to our druidic eye in the sky. So we started preparing before they were ready to “jump” us. I buffed up my defenses and the druid started buffing himself up for combat. Meanwhile the beguiler casts improved invisibility on the rogue, and I took cover behind a large tree and threw out bulls’ strength on the druid (in front of me). Then the rocks began flying. Their first volley missed us horribly so we were free to unload on them.

The beguiler cast Hideous laughter on one of them, taking him out of the fight for the rest of the battle. Meanwhile I cast enlarge person on the druid. (We buff the druid to ridiculous levels so he can kill things in melee) the rogue shanks one of the giants for a lot (critical hit, max damage crit rules) while the bard stands there and starts singing.

Next round the bard gets hit by a pair of flying rocks, then takes cover. One of the giant falls down the cliff due to a critical miss (yeah we’re using crit miss rules). I cast Dimension Door, on the druid putting him in melee range of the giant that fell down the hill. He promptly starts eating the giant. I forgot what the beguiler does, but the rogue backstabs a second giant.

Third round things got crazy. The beguiler cast suggestion on the second giant the rogue backstabbed, convincing him that his buddy next to him attacked him. The ploy worked and the giant took a swing at his friend. But seeing as we’re using a critical miss table, things didn’t go as expected. He swung at the giant, misses, spins around and hits his ally on the other side of him. He rolls really high on damage and the DM makes a strength check. Which sends the hill giant flying off the top of the hill they are on. I hit one with ray of enfeeblement and the bard starts to heal herself, meanwhile the druid and rogue are busy tearing up the giants. The first giant turned to the second giant and started fighting him.


So now we have this hilarious situation, with two enemy giants fighting each other, one on the ground prone and injured, one down from hideous laughter and the last one weakened and rather bewildered as to what is going on.

Then next round the druid finished off the one he was fighting and engaged the prone guy that got knocked down the hill. One giant killed the other, and the rogue finished him off. The beguiler hits the last guy with hideous laughter and the rest of us just start clean up.

The next round we finished off the giants.


This was pretty good, but I noticed a particular lack of damage coming from me. Since I’m looking to be well rounded I think I want a damage spell or two. besides some times it's just nice to throw damage out there. Next time we play I’m probably going to hit level 9 so I’m going to get a new 2nd, 3rd and 4th level spell.

So for my next level up I’m looking at the following spells
2nd:
Scorching ray
Acid arrow

3rd
Lightning Bolt
Haste
Dispel magic
Phantom steed
Blink.

4th
Charm monster
Confusion
Wall of fire/ice
Enervation

I'm thinking scorching ray, haste and enervation will be all be good additions to my spell list. what do you guys think?

HamsterOfTheGod
2009-07-11, 01:15 PM
Ok first off sorry for the thread resurrection and the semi-double post.

Anyway, I finally got to try out my new 4th level spell. I decided to go with Dimension Door to start with. I must say I used it to great effect.

Our party consisted of
Druid (shape change variant)
Rogue
Beguiler
Sorcerer (me)
Bard
All 8th level


Encounter time!

The combat encounter for the evening was a group of five hill giants, and frankly we owned them hard. We were alerted to their presence thanks to our druidic eye in the sky. So we started preparing before they were ready to “jump” us. I buffed up my defenses and the druid started buffing himself up for combat. Meanwhile the beguiler casts improved invisibility on the rogue, and I took cover behind a large tree and threw out bulls’ strength on the druid (in front of me). Then the rocks began flying. Their first volley missed us horribly so we were free to unload on them.

The beguiler cast Hideous laughter on one of them, taking him out of the fight for the rest of the battle. Meanwhile I cast enlarge person on the druid. (We buff the druid to ridiculous levels so he can kill things in melee) the rogue shanks one of the giants for a lot (critical hit, max damage crit rules) while the bard stands there and starts singing.

Next round the bard gets hit by a pair of flying rocks, then takes cover. One of the giant falls down the cliff due to a critical miss (yeah we’re using crit miss rules). I cast Dimension Door, on the druid putting him in melee range of the giant that fell down the hill. He promptly starts eating the giant. I forgot what the beguiler does, but the rogue backstabs a second giant.

Third round things got crazy. The beguiler cast suggestion on the second giant the rogue backstabbed, convincing him that his buddy next to him attacked him. The ploy worked and the giant took a swing at his friend. But seeing as we’re using a critical miss table, things didn’t go as expected. He swung at the giant, misses, spins around and hits his ally on the other side of him. He rolls really high on damage and the DM makes a strength check. Which sends the hill giant flying off the top of the hill they are on. I hit one with ray of enfeeblement and the bard starts to heal herself, meanwhile the druid and rogue are busy tearing up the giants. The first giant turned to the second giant and started fighting him.


So now we have this hilarious situation, with two enemy giants fighting each other, one on the ground prone and injured, one down from hideous laughter and the last one weakened and rather bewildered as to what is going on.

Then next round the druid finished off the one he was fighting and engaged the prone guy that got knocked down the hill. One giant killed the other, and the rogue finished him off. The beguiler hits the last guy with hideous laughter and the rest of us just start clean up.

The next round we finished off the giants.


This was pretty good, but I noticed a particular lack of damage coming from me. Since I’m looking to be well rounded I think I want a damage spell or two. besides some times it's just nice to throw damage out there. Next time we play I’m probably going to hit level 9 so I’m going to get a new 2nd, 3rd and 4th level spell.

So for my next level up I’m looking at the following spells
2nd:
Scorching ray
Acid arrow

3rd
Lightning Bolt
Haste
Dispel magic
Phantom steed
Blink.

4th
Charm monster
Confusion
Wall of fire/ice
Enervation

I'm thinking scorching ray, haste and enervation will be all be good additions to my spell list. what do you guys think?

I would go with scorching ray, dispel magic and enervation but it depends on your campaign.

You have a lot of buff spells. Haste is a better buff than rage though.

Blink is good but wait for greater blink then it's awesome.

TheThan
2009-07-11, 01:35 PM
I would go with scorching ray, dispel magic and enervation but it depends on your campaign.

You have a lot of buff spells. Haste is a better buff than rage though.

Blink is good but wait for greater blink then it's awesome.

yeah, I dropped rage for ray of exhaustion when I leveled. I'll go edit the top.

I also dropped a first level spell for shield since mage armor and shield are different bonus types and therefor stack. i don't recall which spell I switched out for it.

Keld Denar
2009-07-11, 01:42 PM
Considering the Beguiler has Haste on his list, as does the Bard, I'd avoid it and take something more unique.

Phantom Steed is a spell that will make your DM hate you. Its so crazy on a wide open battlefield since you can double move on it AND still cast a spell. The concentration check to do so is crazy easy. That means you can move 90 feet (when you get it at 9th), cast a spell, and then move 90 feet back. That puts you will out of charge range of most enemies. They can still ready actions to shoot your mount or other tactics, but its still making them waste actions. The duration is super long too, so you don't have to spend actions in combat to get one out, not that you would with the super long casting speed.

Consider Slow for a 3rd level spell. Its pretty good, is multitarget, and is a NON-[Mind Affecting] will save. Its really good. If you had SpC, I'd suggest Ray of Dizziness, which is like slow but single targeted and without the save.

Hmmmm, I'd say:

Scorching Ray
Slow
Evards Black Tenticles

HamsterOfTheGod
2009-07-11, 06:14 PM
yeah, I dropped rage for ray of exhaustion when I leveled. I'll go edit the top.

I also dropped a first level spell for shield since mage armor and shield are different bonus types and therefor stack. i don't recall which spell I switched out for it.

In that case I would say the choice is between haste and dispel magic (although lightning bolt and phantom steed are very good too).

If you do not think you will have much need to dispel enemy buffs, counter spell or dispel area effects, than I would go with haste.

Myrmex
2009-07-11, 10:44 PM
IMO, Enervation is better than Evards late game, but mid game, where he is, i'd say Evards will have a much greater effect. Things don't aren't sooooo tough yet that Evards makes a huge dent, and he sure doesn't have the 6th level slots to metamagic Enervation. He'll get another 4th at level 9, and can pick up Enervation (or Solid Fog, or Dim Door, all excellent choices) then, but I think Evards will have the biggest impact NOW, at this level in the game.

Much much much much later, when you get the option of swapping out 4th level spells, I'd drop Evards for something else, because by then it will be rather obsolete, but for now? Its the game winner.

Yup.
Go with the Tentacles. If your allies are too dumb to stay back, they deserve what they get.

HamsterOfTheGod
2009-07-12, 02:55 AM
I'll second going with black tentacles as the 4th level spell. You already have a couple of good debuffs and you could use a good control spell.