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yilduz
2009-06-28, 11:00 PM
I'm looking for ways to increase melee attack bonuses with a BAB of 0. I was thinking of weapon finesse, but I never realized it requires BAB +1. :smalltongue:

Is there anything else?

PrismaticPIA
2009-06-28, 11:04 PM
What kind of wonky-ass build would have +0 BAB? Even casters have a BAB of 1 by level 2.

d13
2009-06-28, 11:09 PM
Maybe... JUST maybe... He's trying to achieve something (still unspecified) using a 3/4 or less BAB class at first level?

yilduz
2009-06-28, 11:10 PM
What kind of wonky-ass build would have +0 BAB? Even casters have a BAB of 1 by level 2.

A build that is meant more for background than optimization. +1 on the BAB doesn't come until level 4, which means weapon finesse can't even be taken until level 6. The character in question is MUCH more of a support character than anything, buffing the party, etc... but I'd like to be able to hit if necessary, because if it's necessary for this character to go into combat, a hit will be very much needed.

FMArthur
2009-06-28, 11:11 PM
Use the fractional BAB rules. They're in Unearthed Arcana and it just means that every level of 3/4 BAB classes actually get +0.75 BAB and 1/2 classes get +0.5 BAB. This is probably how it was intended initially to work but they didn't want to complicate things further for what was at the time a rare choice (multiclassing).

JaxGaret
2009-06-28, 11:14 PM
Use fractional BAB. And saves for that matter.

EDIT: ninja'd :smallsigh:

yilduz
2009-06-28, 11:15 PM
Use the fractional BAB rules. They're in Unearthed Arcana and it just means that every level of 3/4 BAB classes actually get +0.75 BAB and 1/2 classes get +0.5 BAB.

That's actually a really cool idea. I don't think Unearthed Arcana is in the "approved list" for campaign material, though.

I'll check with the DM. Thank you for the idea.

LibraryOgre
2009-06-28, 11:16 PM
If he's this background, why does he need a attack bonus?

However, you might look at Masterwork weapons or tools, or the Point Blank Shot feat (which works for missiles within 30').

ghost_warlock
2009-06-28, 11:17 PM
What kind of wonky-ass build would have +0 BAB? Even casters have a BAB of 1 by level 2.
:smallconfused: Many multiclass builds such as a rogue1/wizard1 heading towards arcane trickster (all core, btw) would have BAB0 until at least 3rd level. Or are you just trolling?

@yilduz: Learn to love magic weapon (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/resources/systems/pennpaper/dnd35/soveliorsage/spellsMtoO.html#magic-weapon)? Or, try to fit a level of swashbuckler or fighter (bonus feat) in somewhere, which will probably mess with your build but might be worth it anyway.

Otherwise, if your dex is decent, focus on attacking with a crossbow or other ranged weapon. If caught in melee, fight defensively and/or withdraw. If cornered, take your inevitable death like a man! :smalltongue:

yilduz
2009-06-28, 11:21 PM
:smallconfused: Many multiclass builds such as a rogue1/wizard1 heading towards arcane trickster (all core, btw) would have BAB0 until at least 3rd level. Or are you just trolling?

@yilduz: Learn to love magic weapon (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/resources/systems/pennpaper/dnd35/soveliorsage/spellsMtoO.html#magic-weapon)? Or, try to fit a level of swashbuckler or fighter (bonus feat) in somewhere, which will probably mess with your build but might be worth it anyway.

Otherwise, if your dex is decent, focus on attacking with a crossbow or other ranged weapon. If caught in melee, fight defensively and/or withdraw. If cornered, take your inevitable death like a man! :smalltongue:

The build is actually very similar to rogue/wizard. That is a very nice spell, one I didn't know about (I've never been much of a caster), but one I'll definitely take.

If this character is fighting, it will be ranged most of the time - but as a support character that does everything he can to help the party, it may be important to be in melee once in a while (flank, etc).

Thank you for that post. It has been incredibly helpful. :smallwink:

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-06-28, 11:28 PM
:smallconfused: Many multiclass builds such as a rogue1/wizard1 heading towards arcane trickster (all core, btw) would have BAB0 until at least 3rd level. Or are you just trolling?Until I read Unearthed Arcana, I didn't realize that Fractional BAB wasn't the default. Don't assume people are trolling, they may just be mistaken about something.

On a related note, I've been trying to figure out the best build possible with 0 BAB at level 20, using the fractional BAB rules. I know Survivor and War Hulk, but are there any others?

AstralFire
2009-06-28, 11:29 PM
Seconding the Unearthed Arcana Rules. Honestly, I did that way before UA came out. Anything else shafts a player trying to get creative with multiclassing for RP, because there's basically no way that kind of build ever results in a min-max wonder.

Hat-Trick
2009-06-28, 11:31 PM
Lots of LA. Take a level in rogue or something and fill in the rest with templates.

ghost_warlock
2009-06-28, 11:52 PM
Don't assume people are trolling, they may just be mistaken about something.
It was more his specific wording that lead me to consider that possibility, rather than the content of the question. Remember kids, tone doesn't really translate over the internet.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-06-28, 11:58 PM
Lots of LA. Take a level in rogue or something and fill in the rest with templates.Maybe. Both the PrCs I listed have BAB +0 over the course of their lives IIRC, and you can enter Survivor at level 2. If there are more, this might be viable without LA.

Quietus
2009-06-29, 12:04 AM
Maybe. Both the PrCs I listed have BAB +0 over the course of their lives IIRC, and you can enter Survivor at level 2. If there are more, this might be viable without LA.

War Hulk requires BAB +5 to enter it.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-06-29, 12:09 AM
War Hulk requires BAB +5 to enter it....Darn. And I'm fairly sure there are no others. Only way to make it work then would be to find 20 precision-damage based classes and PrCs with 3/4ths BAB and then not use fractional. Darn darn darn.

yilduz
2009-06-29, 12:11 AM
...Darn. And I'm fairly sure there are no others. Only way to make it work then would be to find 20 precision-damage based classes and PrCs with 3/4ths BAB and then not use fractional. Darn darn darn.

That would be a pretty interesting concept. I'd like to see the build you come up with.

Quietus
2009-06-29, 12:18 AM
...Darn. And I'm fairly sure there are no others. Only way to make it work then would be to find 20 precision-damage based classes and PrCs with 3/4ths BAB and then not use fractional. Darn darn darn.

Mm. If you do, try and also find a few that also increase spellcasting; If you can pick up second-level Assassin casting, you can get Wraithstrike. With 20 precision-damage based classes, you won't need more than one round.

I also suggest getting that Spot the Whatever skill trick in Complete... Adventurer? Scoundrel? Essentially, spot check vs. opponent's AC, to make your next attack ignore armor bonuses. Then you strike from hiding against their now flat-footed, touch AC, so they only get deflection, sacred/profane, and size modifiers to their AC. Alternatively, True Strike->surprise round->wraithstrike first full round. With TWF and Improved Initiative, there's a good chance you're landing your attacks with True Strike/Wraithstrike, and that means 60d6 damage between surprise and first rounds, if you can land all three.

yilduz
2009-06-29, 12:24 AM
Mm. If you do, try and also find a few that also increase spellcasting; If you can pick up second-level Assassin casting, you can get Wraithstrike. With 20 precision-damage based classes, you won't need more than one round.

I also suggest getting that Spot the Whatever skill trick in Complete... Adventurer? Scoundrel? Essentially, spot check vs. opponent's AC, to make your next attack ignore armor bonuses. Then you strike from hiding against their now flat-footed, touch AC, so they only get deflection, sacred/profane, and size modifiers to their AC. Alternatively, True Strike->surprise round->wraithstrike first full round. With TWF and Improved Initiative, there's a good chance you're landing your attacks with True Strike/Wraithstrike, and that means 60d6 damage between surprise and first rounds, if you can land all three.

True strike only works for the first attack.
Also, if you're using wraithstrike, you don't really need that spot the whatever skill, since they'd essentially be doing the same thing.

That is a cool idea, though. It makes me want to try to build it.

HamsterOfTheGod
2009-06-29, 12:41 AM
If this character is fighting, it will be ranged most of the time - but as a support character that does everything he can to help the party, it may be important to be in melee once in a while (flank, etc).
In that case thwn don't forget to do things like charge when you want to hit something. Or when in melee and not flanking the rogue then aid another may actually help more. Or when in melee to provide the rogue with a flank the fight defensively...no sense in you getting hurt when you are just trying to help.

Quietus
2009-06-29, 12:47 AM
True strike only works for the first attack.
Also, if you're using wraithstrike, you don't really need that spot the whatever skill, since they'd essentially be doing the same thing.

That is a cool idea, though. It makes me want to try to build it.

Yup. Cast True Strike, then initiate the surprise round with a Sneak Attack for 20d6+20 (or more; Assassin's Stance and some magic weapon increase sneak attack dice beyond that, if you can find enough sneak attack classes/prc's) with a +20 attack bonus that ignores any form of concealment. The +20 damage is from Craven, by the way.

First round of combat, use your second-level Assassin (or anything else that gives you Wraithstrike) casting to drop touch attacks as a swift action, then full attack with two weapons for two more hits of 20d6+20 each. Make *absolutely certain* you can win initiative; Massive dex, improved initiative, and that feat that makes it so you never roll lower than 10 on Initiative rolls will help a lot with this, although Foresight wizards will still give you a run for your money.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-06-29, 01:16 AM
There's a weapon enhancement that gives you a BaB equal to 3/4 or your own, whichever is higher, for purposes of wielding the weapon.

dspeyer
2009-06-29, 08:36 AM
Lots of LA. Take a level in rogue or something and fill in the rest with templates.

How about a highly evolved vampire pixie ninja? All the SLAs and SUs are cha-based, so those should work nicely. Defenses are a problem, with 6 hp. At least ninja should get the AC pretty high.

Yuki Akuma
2009-06-29, 08:51 AM
There's a weapon enhancement that gives you a BaB equal to 3/4 or your own, whichever is higher, for purposes of wielding the weapon.

It's in Complete Arcane, it's called Skillful, and it's a +2 equivalent weapon enhancement.

It's very, very good for heavily multiclassed second-string warriors.

It also makes you auto-proficient, meaning you could just pick any old weapon as long as you can afford a +3 equivalent weapon.

Jayabalard
2009-06-29, 10:08 AM
Don't assume people are trolling, they may just be mistaken about something. From reading the text that you quoted, it looks to me like his assumption was that PrismaticPIA was mistaken, but that it was a possibility that PrismaticPIA was trolling instead.

Gnaeus
2009-06-29, 12:41 PM
Some of the devotion feats in complete champion add to your to hit. Most of them are only for 1 minute once per day, but for all I know his build has a cleric level in there somewhere. Chaos, Law, and Knowledge might be winners depending on the character.

Person_Man
2009-06-29, 01:49 PM
Buy a Wand of Flame Blade and a Wand of Improved Invisibility. Relatively cheap, effective, and core.

Fitz10019
2009-06-29, 03:14 PM
The build is actually very similar to rogue/wizard. That is a very nice spell, one I didn't know about (I've never been much of a caster), but one I'll definitely take.

If this character is fighting, it will be ranged most of the time - but as a support character that does everything he can to help the party, it may be important to be in melee once in a while (flank, etc).

Thank you for that post. It has been incredibly helpful. :smallwink:

If you're not a melee build, don't take a melee feat (unless the DM allows retraining feats at later levels). Whatever your character's main role is, take feats that make him better at it. The party should be well-rounded -- each character should be a specialist.

If you want to 'help' in melee during early levels until your multiclass concept matures enough to be useful, use the Aid Another action.

Also note, flanking does not require a successful attack (or an attack at all), it only requires that you threaten in melee. Simply standing in the right place with a weapon in your hand is enough. You could carry a longspear and stand ten feet away, and you will be helping, even if you aren't proficient with the longspear.

yilduz
2009-06-29, 04:50 PM
If you're not a melee build, don't take a melee feat (unless the DM allows retraining feats at later levels). Whatever your character's main role is, take feats that make him better at it. The party should be well-rounded -- each character should be a specialist.

If you want to 'help' in melee during early levels until your multiclass concept matures enough to be useful, use the Aid Another action.

Also note, flanking does not require a successful attack (or an attack at all), it only requires that you threaten in melee. Simply standing in the right place with a weapon in your hand is enough. You could carry a longspear and stand ten feet away, and you will be helping, even if you aren't proficient with the longspear.

That's a pretty good idea. I'm not sure I'll go with it (I may), but it's pretty smart.

The character really isn't built to be a ranged fighter or a melee fighter, he isn't built with focus on combat at all. He needs to be able to help if needed, though. The rest of the party includes a druid, cleric, sorcerer, ranger, factotum. Among the ranger, druid, cleric and factotum, we seem to have enough melee and ranged power. I'm the scout-like character. When it comes to combat, my main job is to ensure we're always able to be prepared for any combats up ahead, and make sure we get the surprise round. Outside of combat, I'm the skill monkey, but I also help with buffs, healing, whatever else.

Due to the suggestions given in this thread, I won't likely be taking any feats for this reason. The spells will work well enough. :smallsmile:

Thank you for the post. :smallwink:

J.Gellert
2009-06-29, 05:00 PM
Use the fractional BAB rules. They're in Unearthed Arcana and it just means that every level of 3/4 BAB classes actually get +0.75 BAB and 1/2 classes get +0.5 BAB. This is probably how it was intended initially to work but they didn't want to complicate things further for what was at the time a rare choice (multiclassing).

Thanks for pointing that out, I didn't know that... great rule. Definitely using this from now.

Darkfire
2009-06-29, 05:08 PM
You could carry a longspear and stand ten feet away, and you will be helping, even if you aren't proficient with the longspear.

Better still: use a Guisarme (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#guisarme) and focus on tripping while flanking.

A trip starts with a touch attack so you're already minimising the effect of your low BAB by ignoring armour, shields and natural armour bonuses and follows with an opposed Str check (defender can use Dex instead if they want). If you're successful, your opponent falls prone reducing their melee AC by 4 and they provoke an AoO when they stand up (and spend their move action doing so) so, if you're flanking with someone, you're effectively giving your allies a +6 to all the melee attacks they can squeeze in before your opponent is back on their feet.

If they win the opposed check, they can counter trip (opposed check again but you get to defend this time) and if you fail you can just drop the weapon if you prefer to stay upright (It's worth having something like a spiked gauntlet on as a pre-drawn backup weapon if you're going to do thi) so you can at least make AoOs in the rounds before you recover your Guisarme).
Alternatively, go down the Combat Expertise route, pick up Improved Trip and make trip attacks with impunity (and get a free attack on them whilst they're prone).

Tripping is only really viable against bipeds of your own size (except dwarves and anything else with stability as a racial trait) or smaller sized creature but you can use Enlarge Person to enable use on larger opponents (this'll also get you a bonus on the opposed check and additional reach) but for everything else you've still got the inherent advantage of a two-handed reach weapon and can always swap it out for an alternative.

snoopy13a
2009-06-29, 05:15 PM
Better still: use a Guisarme (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#guisarme) and focus on tripping while flanking.

A trip starts with a touch attack so you're already minimising the effect of your low BAB by ignoring armour, shields and natural armour bonuses and follows with an opposed Str check (defender can use Dex instead if they want). If you're successful, your opponent falls prone reducing their melee AC by 4 and they provoke an AoO when they stand up (and spend their move action doing so) so, if you're flanking with someone, you're effectively giving your allies a +6 to all the melee attacks they can squeeze in before your opponent is back on their feet.

If they win the opposed check, they can counter trip (opposed check again but you get to defend this time) and if you fail you can just drop the weapon if you prefer to stay upright (It's worth having something like a spiked gauntlet on as a pre-drawn backup weapon if you're going to do thi) so you can at least make AoOs in the rounds before you recover your Guisarme).
Alternatively, go down the Combat Expertise route, pick up Improved Trip and make trip attacks with impunity (and get a free attack on them whilst they're prone).

Tripping is only really viable against bipeds of your own size (except dwarves and anything else with stability as a racial trait) or smaller sized creature but you can use Enlarge Person to enable use on larger opponents (this'll also get you a bonus on the opposed check and additional reach) but for everything else you've still got the inherent advantage of a two-handed reach weapon and can always swap it out for an alternative.

Longspear is a simple weapon while a guisarme is a martial weapon. The character may not have martial weapon prof.

yilduz
2009-06-29, 05:29 PM
Longspear is a simple weapon while a guisarme is a martial weapon. The character may not have martial weapon prof.

I just checked and I do get martial weapon proficiency at 3rd level. :smallbiggrin:

I think the tripping thing is a pretty good idea, but the major issue with it is that my character is small. Improved Trip would balance the penalty for size, but my strength is kind of low, too. I am, however, part mage and have access to Bull's strength.

Fitz10019
2009-06-29, 06:14 PM
If they win the opposed check, they can counter trip

His build is low strength and zero BAB -- and size Small. When he loses the opposed check, which would be most of the time, he'll have to drop the weapon, and he won't be threatening/flanking thereafter. Then he'll 5-ft step to use the gauntlet, lose again, get tripped himself (you can't drop a gauntlet), and the bad guy will skewer him to make use of Cleave. Tripping is a very strong approach to melee, but it is not a good strategy for a non-melee character.

Read the Aid Another section of the PHB p154. Stand in flanking position and Aid Another to either boost an ally's Attack by +2, or their AC by +2. You could even ready an action to Aid the AC of the ally that gets attacked. Doin this, you will make a meaningful contribution to every round of combat at the early levels. At mid and later levels, you'll be busy casting.

As a skillmonkey caster, spend your feats on skill abilities and casting abilities. Try to plan your feats out to at least 12th level. Once you see that the feats you really want have other feats as requirements, you'll realize you don't have room to waste any on melee (when that is not your focus).

Stormageddon
2009-06-29, 07:29 PM
A build that is meant more for background than optimization. +1 on the BAB doesn't come until level 4, which means weapon finesse can't even be taken until level 6. The character in question is MUCH more of a support character than anything, buffing the party, etc... but I'd like to be able to hit if necessary, because if it's necessary for this character to go into combat, a hit will be very much needed.

I just have to know what the build is. Tri-class base class? I've always wanted to try doing something like that.

yilduz
2009-06-30, 07:40 AM
I just have to know what the build is. Tri-class base class? I've always wanted to try doing something like that.

When you're trying to build a support character, going with three (or even more) classes is pretty easy while still keeping it a decent character. You won't likely gain any uber abilities that some of the classes get at the very high levels, and your BAB may suck, but that's not your purpose.

Darkfire
2009-06-30, 03:48 PM
His build is low strength and zero BAB -- and size Small.
For the record, yilduz hadn't mentioned size or strength prior to my post.

When he loses the opposed check, which would be most of the time, he'll have to drop the weapon, and he won't be threatening/flanking thereafter. Then he'll 5-ft step to use the gauntlet, lose again, get tripped himself (you can't drop a gauntlet), and the bad guy will skewer him to make use of Cleave. Tripping is a very strong approach to melee, but it is not a good strategy for a non-melee character.
He's only got the one attack at BAB 0 so he's not going to be able to make a second trip attempt (and why would he even try if he failed massively on the first attempt?) but, with the 5' step you suggest, he'll be left in a flanking position whilst still armed with the spiked gauntlet. Of course, if he's up against a competent melee combatant, a 5' step back to avoid being on the receiving end of a full attack may be the safer option.

This is, of course, only if he chooses to drop the guisarme after failing a second opposed roll where he can use his Dex in place of his Str if it provides a better modifier. Alternatively, he can just fall prone while keeping hold of the weapon and stand back up (providing he's not already used his move action that round). Unless the opponent has reach, he won't actually provoke an AoO by doing so. In this last case, he'd be no worse off than if he'd failed an Aid Another attempt.

Providing he makes the touch attack and has a 50:50 chance of winning the opposed check (assume he's fighting smart and not trying it in situations where he thinks it won't work), it's worth a shot as the benefits of a sucessful trip* will significantly outweigh the '+2 to hit' on one ally's next attack against a specific single target.

Is the tactic worth investing feats in for a non-melee build? Probably not. Is it worth spending the extra 4gp on a guisarme over a spear when you have martial weapon proficiency**? I'd say yes.

*Two AoOs at +4 to hit minimum. Potentially, a full attack at +4 to hit on each attack from everyone already in position plus single attacks at +4 to hit for those moving into position plus addition AoOs for everyone who's in position when the opponent finally gets to try standing up.
**I must confess, I'd forgotten to consider this when I made my first post. I'd also forgotten that Improved Trip doesn't prevent counter trip attempts just the AoO.

Fitz10019
2009-06-30, 07:00 PM
a 50:50 chance of winning the opposed check

But note, a tripper has to use strength to win the opposed check. Only the trippee has the option of using strength or dex. This character will fail to trip most of the time. BTW, my 'second attack' comment referred to the second round of combat.

Combining this divergent advice, your character could try a trip in the first round of combat, and 20% of the time it will be really worth it (for the reasons Darkfire presented), while 80% of the time he'll get disarmed (by dropping his guisarme to avoid countertrip). For that 80% of the time, he could draw a longspear (why not buy both weapons?) and Aid Another for his 2nd round and beyond. Use the Aid Another [AC]/Readied Action combo to aid the right person each round.

Also note that Darkfire, although very dedicated to the trip approach, does not think a non-melee character should invest feats in it.

Darkfire
2009-07-01, 05:10 PM
This is what I was alluding to:

If you win, you trip the defender. If you lose, the defender may immediately react and make a Strength check opposed by your Dexterity or Strength check to try to trip you.

If your Dex provides a better modifier than your Str, you'll be less likely to fail on the second roll so the chance of being tripped in turn is less than a quarter assuming that it's an even contest or you have the advantage. Potentially much less as we still have to factor in the probability of hitting with the initial touch attack.

Sure, this tactic would fail most of the time if you're going to try it on everything you come up against but if you're carefully picking when you try it, having the option, which is something the guisarme will give you over the longspear*, is better than not having it.

Where you know it's not going to work, Aid Another is, of course, the better option. Where you think it might work, it's worth trying if the benefits outweigh the risks.

*The two weapons are otherwise fairly similar (both x3 on a crit, 1d6 damage and 10' reach when small sized).