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Wyvern_55
2009-06-29, 01:26 AM
So I've been dreaming up a new campaign world (and campaign to go with it) which I want to have a much more visceral feel to it, something where characters don't get super powered beyond the limits of human ability.

I initially was going to use a highly modified D&D 3.5 with no magic and a level cap of about 6. But I was referred to GURPS and so far, I have only had a chance to flip through it a little bit. So is there anything that the forum can tell me that might influence my decision? Pros, cons, highly annoying bits?

Just for the record, the game is going to be set in a magic-free universe, on a fantasy planet (sky is held up by pillars, stars are little points of light, not huge balls of fire, etc.) which has had technology develop to the point where a full scale nuclear war has almost exterminated humanity. Leaving just a very few groups clinging to survival, using ancient technology to increase their chances against other clans.

TL:DR ~ is GURPS a decent system for a more deadly game in a no-magic post-apocalyptic universe?

random11
2009-06-29, 02:33 AM
GURPS is a system that fits a realistic game with high risk to all levels.
So if you compare it to a D&D with a cap level, I think it's perfect.

Careful though, "realism" means that only a few hits with a normal melee weapon are enough to kill the average adventurer, regardless of his experience.
I don't see it as a disadvantage, but if the players in the group are used to the epic-heroic fantasy setting that D&D offers, they might not like it.

Also, GURPS might require the GM to do some kind of work on house rules, skills etc. to fit to his campaign.
As a GM, this is my favorite part, but some people prefer a more static set of rules.

warmachine
2009-06-29, 04:58 AM
GURPS is, at core, a toolkit system, not a play-out-of-the-box game, and requires a world description for any particular setting. However, this is perfect for you as you want to completely write your own world and physics.
As others have pointed out, GURPS is aimed towards realism and combat is dangerous. A 150 point hero built to withstand a few pistol shots is dead if a 25 point mook fires an AK-47 at point blank range. This seems to fit the nastiness of a post-apocalyptic world. Unless you use optional rules like Imperial Academy Marksmanship.
GURPS emphasises roleplaying and players avoid combat. Players can even get bonus points for creating characters with roleplaying flaws that hurt them. Make sure the players prefer roleplaying more than killing things.
I don't think there's a genre book to help but Low-Tech and High-Tech are great catalogue books.
Go to the GURPS forums at http://forums.sjgames.com/forumdisplay.php?f=13.

Yuki Akuma
2009-06-29, 05:34 AM
GURPS is one of the most complex, difficult-to-learn systems out there.

It's wonderful, but dear lord you're going to take a while to learn the thing.

But, yes, it works really well for "grim and gritty" - a sword to the gut will kill anyone in GURPS who isn't explicitly immune to swords to the gut, generally.

Kurald Galain
2009-06-29, 05:53 AM
GURPS is, at core, a toolkit system, not a play-out-of-the-box game, and requires a world description for any particular setting. However, this is perfect for you as you want to completely write your own world and physics.
On the other hand, GURPS offers extensive worldbooks on just about everything. Including post-apocalyptic settings, of course.

However, GURPS is rather rules-heavy, which you and the group must be comfortable with. Also, character generation takes rather long, and several options (e.g. charisma) use different rules for no apparent reason.

My personal suggestion for a low-magic post-apoc setting would be to use White Wolf's Storyteller system. Simply grab any kind of oWOD or nWOD rules for mortals, and you have easy character generation, consistent skill rules, and lethal combat.

xPANCAKEx
2009-06-29, 07:05 AM
theres a hell of a lot of optional bolt-on rules so be mindful of which you use

its definately more player-end heavy with character creation and rewarks good book knowledge of skills/traits/disadvantages

but once you get your head round it, its a very gritty, very rewarding system. Lots of fun to play.

Rasilak
2009-06-29, 08:02 AM
GURPS is probably an excellent choice for gritty post-apocalyptic settings, as combat is fast, deadly and requires good tactics if you want to win reliably. GURPS is also a system that has fair and reasonable rules for melee and for firearms, which is actually quite rare.

However, GURPS is rather rules-heavy, which you and the group must be comfortable with. Also, character generation takes rather long, and several options (e.g. charisma) use different rules for no apparent reason.
Hm, I think GURPS is only moderately "rules heavy", and the mechanics are quite straightforward and (except for the charisma rules you pointed out, and the magic rules which are kinda klunky - I homebrewed my own, and you're not going to use them anyway, right?) pretty much identical for everything. Also, all you need to play are 3D6 (or, alternatively, 1D20 if you use the rules option for more random outcomes - be warned, this is even more deadly than GURPS already is), and not dozens of different dice like for D&D, or truckloads of D6es like for Shadowrun.
And you can easily play with only GURPS Lite and some homebrew (If you want a rulebook for everything, it might get "rules heavy", but you dont need all those books - if something is not covered, you can usually improvise it with the standard mechanics). Still, if you're serious, Low-Tech and High-Tech (and Ultra-Tech, but you won't need that for your campaign) are good equipment/weapon catalogues.

Satyr
2009-06-29, 08:04 AM
Gurps is complex, but not dificult. WEhile the game includes probably the highest umber of options and fine-tuning abilities, it is still not difficult in the way it works, because it follows a compleely stringet logic way in the way the system works. I found it much easier to understand than for example D&D, because of this predominant inner logic. The rules aren't just arbitrary; they make sense in themself, and just therefore the game is pretty good.

And yes, Gurps is more realistic than D&D (which is a bit like stating that something is "heavier than helium") but only if you want it to be; there arequite a few number of options which are basically meant to make the game anything but realistic, and you can crank up the power level beyond divine level, if you want to; I play in a Gurps camapign where the characters are greek and norse gods in a modern day conspiracy/crime drama. Ares is one of the characters, and he can punch through a tank's armor.

Besides, it is almost always an advantage if the base line of an RPG is able to simulate realism and are far superior to games who start with a completely larger than life premise from the very beginning. It is usually not a problem at all to create powerful, larger than life heroes in a realistic system (if only through sheer overkill), but vice versa, it doesn't work nearly as well.

I use Gurps as the base line of roleplaying games - any descentr game should better be able to run its intended atmosphere or setting better than a quick and dirty Gurps conversion, or the system is just not worth it.
I think you can't do much in D&D you couldn't do equally well or better with Gurps. But, sadly this is true for wa to many RPG's.

You can alsoo download a free light version (http://e23.sjgames.com/item.html?id=SJG31-0004) of Gurps which includes all the rules of the game, but not nearly a tenth of the options.

Tyrmatt
2009-06-29, 09:07 AM
Using just the two Basic Set books, I've got a fairly faithful rendition of the Fallout world shaping up to be a cracker. And this is after I went through the D20 versions of it and discarded them for being too complex for new players.
Character creation is a nightmare for the uninitiated but once made, the character slides on like a glove and the abilities and skills are well defined and should you wish to make it less complex, you can.

Character wise, I've got a player who simultaneously has invested skill points in being a good shot with a machine gun but also took the option to have fangs to give herself an extra bite attack in melee range or while grappling.
The other player (more are pending) took the Gadgeteer ability which lets him pull a useful device from his pockets once per day that will assist with the situation. The third player who we are waiting on will hopefully be a bit of a skill monkey as the guys currently playing tend to shoot first, loot second, break some guy's wrist third and then ask questions, so I hope he's more of a diplomancer than they are ^^;

Kurald Galain
2009-06-29, 09:07 AM
Hm, I think GURPS is only moderately "rules heavy"

It has more rulebooks than any other system known to man :smalltongue:

Cyrion
2009-06-29, 09:21 AM
I think GURPS would be a great system for what you describe. It's very flexible about being able to handle almost anything your players come up with. When they come up with come hare-brained scheme, just think about what skill(s) might possible apply, think of a reasonable modifier for success and have the players roll 3d6.

When your players are creating characters, talk them into sinking most of their points into their ability scores. One, this is where the greatest general payoff is going to be in the long run and two, it limits the points they have left to dither with in advantages, disadvantages and skills; this makes it much easier for the novice GURPSian to create the character.

Satyr
2009-06-29, 09:26 AM
It has more rulebooks than any other system known to man

... of which most do not include any rules at all.
Most Gurps splat books are source books about how to play in a certain setting, etc. and not very rule heavy. There are a few books which are indeed "rule books" - like Martial Arts, Magic or Powers - but others who just don't, and only explain how the known rules from the Core books are used could be applied to which effect, if at all. Gurps has a lot less rule books than D&D, for example, and it also lacks the spiral of power creep.

Fhaolan
2009-06-29, 09:50 AM
Some bits of information:

There are several editions of GURPS, but the editions are far more compatable with each other than the various D&D editions. Also, they have an odd way of labelling their rulebooks, so a 2nd edition of a specific splatbook is quite literally the 2nd edition of that splatbook, it doesn't mean it's written for the 2nd edition of the ruleset. It might in fact be written for the 3rd edition of the ruleset, and you're supposed to just know that the first edition of the splatbook was printed during the 2nd edition of the game itself, with the 1st edition of the game not having that particular splatbook. It's the same thing people complain about with D&D's use of the term 'level'. :smallsmile:

In any case, GURPS is very, very versatile for the grim-n-gritty game. It's very deadly, and once you start playing and getting used to the system, it's relatively easy to understand. Getting playing, however, is a long and involved process.

Basically, character creation is very complex due to the number of skills/advantages/disadvantages available. There are ways to simply this, via templates, and having the GM restrict the list of options to fit his campaign world. However, this requires the GM to create the templates, and go through all the options to create the 'good' list for the players to choose from.

GURPS is a system for a gearhead GM. It allows the GM complete flexibility in creating a campaign world. The flip side of that is that it takes the GM to *build* the campaign world. Even the worldbook splatbooks are just suggestions as to how a GM is to start the process of building the campaign world.

Jayabalard
2009-06-29, 09:52 AM
It has more rulebooks than any other system known to man :smalltongue:That really doesn't say much about how rules heavy the system is. Besides, the vast majority of the content in those other "rulebooks" aren't actually rules at all; there are plenty of books on settings (banestorm, transhuman space, Humanx commonwealth, discworld, ancient china, etc) which are primarily non rules books, and even the Genres books tend to be mostly non-rules information.

Since GURPS is more of a game toolkit than a fully fleshed out system, where it falls in the rules heaviness line can vary a lot depending on how the people actually use the system... in practice GURPS can be anything from rules lite to rules heavy.

Kurald Galain
2009-06-29, 10:06 AM
... of which most do not include any rules at all.

Hence the smiley in my post, that your quote omits :smalltongue:

Satyr
2009-06-29, 10:23 AM
Sorry, I probably misinterpreted your post's intention, then.

Jayabalard
2009-06-29, 11:24 AM
they have an odd way of labelling their rulebooks, so a 2nd edition of a specific splatbook is quite literally the 2nd edition of that splatbook, it doesn't mean it's written for the 2nd edition of the ruleset. It might in fact be written for the 3rd edition of the ruleset, and you're supposed to just know that the first edition of the splatbook was printed during the 2nd edition of the game itself, with the 1st edition of the game not having that particular splatbook. Generally the book says what edition of the game it's for in the first few pages, but I agree, that one took some getting used to.

I'm not entirely sure that's a problem with the current edition though, since they've re-organized much of the content.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-06-29, 01:16 PM
So I've been dreaming up a new campaign world (and campaign to go with it) which I want to have a much more visceral feel to it, something where characters don't get super powered beyond the limits of human ability.

I initially was going to use a highly modified D&D 3.5 with no magic and a level cap of about 6. But I was referred to GURPS and so far, I have only had a chance to flip through it a little bit. So is there anything that the forum can tell me that might influence my decision? Pros, cons, highly annoying bits?

Just for the record, the game is going to be set in a magic-free universe, on a fantasy planet (sky is held up by pillars, stars are little points of light, not huge balls of fire, etc.) which has had technology develop to the point where a full scale nuclear war has almost exterminated humanity. Leaving just a very few groups clinging to survival, using ancient technology to increase their chances against other clans.

TL:DR ~ is GURPS a decent system for a more deadly game in a no-magic post-apocalyptic universe?

Yes, it is a much more deadly system, particularly in a post-apocalyptic universe setting, which GURPS is primed to play right out of the box.

Remember, though... characters are squishy. Like Tomb of Horrors squishy. As in "One bad roll can kill your character" squishy. And this never really changes.

One guy, with a STR of 16 (with a decent race, you can pull this off fairly inexpensively), and a two-handed pick (like, say, an appropriately salvaged piece of scrap), can easily deal over 2d6 IMPALING (Sw/Imp). Impaling means damage is doubled after the DR from armor is taken into account. That means it will almost always insta-gib anything it hits, since your average character has 10-12 hit points. Period. That's it. Ever.

So if you've got a lot of zombies with big sharp pointy things... the PC's will NOT simply be able to mow them all down. Their best bet is to run. Fast.

warmachine
2009-06-29, 01:43 PM
If one of the many 3e GURPS splat books looks useful, don't worry too much about conversion. The technology levels were shifted a bit, especially modern and futuristic, but most equipment have been replaced in the 4e catalogue books. Characters generally cost 50% more but character points totals are for building PCs and an NPC character points total should be ignored anyway. Everything else is compatible.

Rhuadin
2009-06-29, 02:20 PM
GURPS is one of the most complex, difficult-to-learn systems out there.

It's wonderful, but dear lord you're going to take a while to learn the thing.


I disagree that it's difficult to learn. The basic system is very simple.

Character Creation, on the other hand, is VERY complex. Fortunately your players go through this, not you. :D

What I would recommend on character creation is to keep in mind that not every skill, advantage, or disadvantage is appropriate for every flavor of campaign (i.e. illiterate isn't a disadvantage if there's no such thing as a written language, huge levels of damage reduction isn't appropriate for humans) so feel free to veto anything you feel is not appropriate. This isn't D&D, where everything is by default okay to use. It's GURPS, where everything is by default NOT okay to use, and you specify what is.

Wyvern_55
2009-06-29, 09:28 PM
Hee hee, Alright, this is sounding exactly like what I want.

Now, for the most part the group should be avoiding combat, but when it DOES eventually come to blows, how IS the combat?

Seeing as how the rounds are one second long, does it slow things down to a tremendous degree? or is the combat over soon enough that it isn't a problem?

in any case, I think my opinion has been swayed enough, and I'll probably be picking it up at some point.

Thanks!

Zeta Kai
2009-06-29, 09:41 PM
I disagree that it's difficult to learn. The basic system is very simple.

Character Creation, on the other hand, is VERY complex. Fortunately your players go through this, not you. :D

1) Yes, the basic system is simple, but the basic system does almost nothing by itself. It's the picking & choosing of all the modular add-ons & figuring out how they will work together that gives the game it's well-earned reputation as the Toughest System to Master.

2) So, uh, Mr. GM, what do you do for NPCs, huh? They need stats too. And then you're in the same boat as your players. Only they go through the process once, whereas the GM goes through it over & over again, for every NPC. Have fun.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-06-29, 11:29 PM
Hee hee, Alright, this is sounding exactly like what I want.

Now, for the most part the group should be avoiding combat, but when it DOES eventually come to blows, how IS the combat?

Seeing as how the rounds are one second long, does it slow things down to a tremendous degree? or is the combat over soon enough that it isn't a problem?

in any case, I think my opinion has been swayed enough, and I'll probably be picking it up at some point.

Thanks!

Well, if everyone's damage is pre-calculated, then it shouldn't be much slower than standard D&D rounds, from a game-playing standpoint. However, if people start trying to pick up improvised weapons, and have to re-calculate both attack and damage based on whatever you decide it does, that can REALLY slow things down.

For example:

Player A uses a Machete. We have calculated, through his Str score, that it does 1d6+3 and he has a Shortsword skill of 14. So any time he uses his machete, he rolls 3d6. If he rolls under a 14, then he hits, and his opponent gets to make one Active Defense to see if they can negate the hit. If it does land, then he rolls 1d6 and adds 3, then subtract the DR of the armor, then multiply by 1.5 (round down), and that is how much damage he does.

Player B is out of ammo for his Shotgun and wants to pick up a piece of pipe that was sheered of and has a pointy end. Now we first have to calculate the stats of the item. It would probably either be two-handed sword (probably doing Swing +2 Crushing) or Spear (in which case it is probably doing Thrust+1 Impaling). Swing and Thrust base damages should be recorded on the character sheet. Then you select the appropriate skill, and apply a -4 penalty on your to-hit due to an improvised weapon. Then calculate your attack roll and damage. Then you are ready to go on to actually making an attack roll as above.

So yea... if you aren't careful, a round can take a hell of a long time.


2) So, uh, Mr. GM, what do you do for NPCs, huh? They need stats too. And then you're in the same boat as your players. Only they go through the process once, whereas the GM goes through it over & over again, for every NPC. Have fun.

That, my friend, is why we make templates.

For example:

Grunt: Str 14, Dex 12, IQ 8, HT 12. Has either 2 P/A skills at Dex +2 or 1 P/A skill at Dex +1 and one P/H skill at Dex +1. Has armor with PD2/DR2.

Zombie: Str 16 (20 hit points), Dex 9, IQ -, HT 10. Immune to mind-affecting or instant death effects. Called shot to the head or vitals will kill a Zombie, otherwise it will heal 5 damage, which will cause it to get back up. It is mindless, meaning it has no IQ. It will automatically fail, or be immune to, anything which requires an IQ check.

Evil Genius: Str 9 (12 hp), Dex 13, IQ 15, HT 10. Has 5 M/H or M/VH Science skills at IQ +2, has one combat skill (either fencing or Gun) at 15. Optional supernatural powers, either from worshiping Things From Beyond or from his study of the paranormal/supernatural which has unlocked mental (psionic) or arcane (magic) potential in him. He has 50 points to spend on these powers.

Satyr
2009-06-30, 02:29 AM
That means it will almost always insta-gib anything it hits, since your average character has 10-12 hit points. Period. That's it. Ever.

While this is not de facto wrong, it ois very misleading. Gurps characters aren't even threated to die when they reach 0 HP - they are hard pressed, slowed down, and potentially uncosncious, but they are not deadly peril. That begins at -HP, and even then your character could only die if you botch a roll, certain death comes only at -10xHP.


Yes, the basic system is simple, but the basic system does almost nothing by itself. It's the picking & choosing of all the modular add-ons & figuring out how they will work together that gives the game it's well-earned reputation as the Toughest System to Master.

No. Gurps goes only so far that it makes the personal adapation of the setting and the rules not just highly recommandable and common but mandatory. I have never played any RPG without houserules, and I certainly don't intend to do so. Any gamemaster worth his salt adapts the setting and the used rules to his mental of the ideal campaign he wants to run - that'S a part of the job. It doesn't become harder when the system is meant to acknoledge these adjustments and their necessity.
Besides, the intrinsic logic of the game is extremely easy to follow, making it a lot easier to adjust than the more arbitrary rules of, say, D&D.

It is another school of thaught - Gurps is a game that basically assumes that you as a gamemaster are a creative, thinking individual who is completely able of independant thaught and an opinion on its own and that you are willing to use this ability. If this makes it "a complicated game", let's lead all "simple games" to a nice, sunny wall and give them a blindfold and a cigarette...

Oslecamo
2009-06-30, 04:07 AM
It is another school of thaught - Gurps is a game that basically assumes that you as a gamemaster are a creative, thinking individual who is completely able of independant thaught and an opinion on its own and that you are willing to use this ability. If this makes it "a complicated game", let's lead all "simple games" to a nice, sunny wall and give them a blindfold and a cigarette...

That is pretty much the definition of a complicated game. You have to think a lot to make it worck right.

If it wasn't extra complicated, then you wouldn't need "creative independent tought" to make it worck.

Kurald Galain
2009-06-30, 04:43 AM
That is pretty much the definition of a complicated game. You have to think a lot to make it worck right.

To me, that would be an easy game. I would call a game complicated if it had a metric ton of rulebooks wherein people are supposed to look up this particular correlation.

"Some creatures take half damage from slashing weapons" is easy. "Here is a table that lists all different kinds of armor and gives an AC bonus or penalties versus the three different kinds of weapon" is complicated.

Satyr
2009-06-30, 04:57 AM
That is pretty much the definition of a complicated game. You have to think a lot to make it worck right.

If it wasn't extra complicated, then you wouldn't need "creative independent tought" to make it worck.

Any descent game requires invested thought. Only games targeted at an idiot audience doesn't, and they are usually not worth the time anyway. Gurps is a bit more direct in this, and applies a very elegant approach to this by offering a very simple and logic core and a vast number of options which logically derrive from this core which makes the system (not the fluff, but the very system) very plausible and therefore much easier to understand and rely to than an arbitrary, illogic system detached from anything resembling common sense or reality.
Yes, it is complex, but it is not difficult.

Rasilak
2009-06-30, 06:00 AM
One guy, with a STR of 16 (with a decent race, you can pull this off fairly inexpensively), and a two-handed pick (like, say, an appropriately salvaged piece of scrap), can easily deal over 2d6 IMPALING (Sw/Imp). Impaling means damage is doubled after the DR from armor is taken into account. That means it will almost always insta-gib anything it hits, since your average character has 10-12 hit points. Period. That's it. Ever.We're playing in a modern world as part of a "magic police" that tries to keep a community of magic users secret (so, something between the Ministry of Magic, the MIB and the Spanish Inquisition).
Here (with firearms) it is even more deadly. A standard 9mm semiautomatic pistol does 2D+2 damage, and gets 3 shots off in a round. Within close range, at least two of them are likely to hit - this reliably gets anyone to negative hitpoints, and has quite a good chance to insta-gib them (as said, at -10 its over). And someone trained with a submachine gun or assault rifle can easily clean out a whole room in one or two rounds.
I don't know for low-tech settings, but in a modern world fights are very mobile, and usually consist of 1-2 rounds of firing with lots of regrouping, flanking and repositioning in between.

mikeejimbo
2009-06-30, 06:41 AM
...the magic rules which are kinda klunky - I homebrewed my own...

Did you pick up Thaumatology? That's an excellent book on changing and adapting the magic system.

Cyrion
2009-06-30, 09:10 AM
While I appreciate the idea of the active defense, I find that's where things can get most bogged down in combat. It's relatively easy to get active defenses such that it's almost impossible to hit the character, and it's also relatively easy to get attack skills high enough that a hit is almost guaranteed. This can devolve into "I hit." "He dodges." "I hit." "He dodges." ad infinitum until someone rolls a critical.

ArcadiaGM
2009-06-30, 09:47 AM
There are a couple of combat options that are expressly intended to overcome high defenses: Feints and Deceptive Attacks. The Deceptive Attack is a great addition to the latest edition of GURPS, and really helps high-skilled characters to overcome the defenses of lower-skilled characters quickly.

Zeta Kai
2009-06-30, 10:13 AM
Gurps goes only so far that it makes the personal adapation of the setting and the rules not just highly recommandable and common but mandatory. I have never played any RPG without houserules, and I certainly don't intend to do so. Any gamemaster worth his salt adapts the setting and the used rules to his mental of the ideal campaign he wants to run - that'S a part of the job. It doesn't become harder when the system is meant to acknoledge these adjustments and their necessity.
Besides, the intrinsic logic of the game is extremely easy to follow, making it a lot easier to adjust than the more arbitrary rules of, say, D&D.

Agreed, but you cut right to the crux of the issue. "Any gamemaster worth his salt" you say. A person who is new to GURPS is not a gamemaster worth his salt. They are a noob, & all I'm saying is that GURPS is not a noob-friendly game system. It's a great game system, one that make a lot of sense & uses real-world measurements that are easy to understand. But, just like real life, it has a steep learning curve, one measured in weeks & months, not hours & days.

Cybren
2009-06-30, 10:48 AM
GURPS characters aren't "ultra mortal" or anything. It depends on the kind of campaign the GM is running. You may, for example, be, you know, immortal. It's GURPS, how strong or weak your character is varies from game to game. In general though, as pointed out, getting taken down to 0 HP doesn't mean death. Typically PCs in GURPS have a good Health stat. Health, or HT, increases the odds of living significantly. (though automatic death is at -5xHP, not -10xHP, that is, taking a full six times your hit points in damage).


The rules are detailed, not really complex. If an inexperienced GM has a clear picture of the kind of game he wants to run, it wouldn't be terribly hard. Also as pointed out, most of the game can be "switched on or off", so you can use what you want. Most of it is presented as optional rules, in fact.



2) So, uh, Mr. GM, what do you do for NPCs, huh? They need stats too. And then you're in the same boat as your players. Only they go through the process once, whereas the GM goes through it over & over again, for every NPC. Have fun.

Generally in GURPS the GM will just write down "has this damage, this equipment, this HP, weak against that" for most enemies. For important NPCs, sure, you might want to write them up as a character, but you're 1) not limited in your CP budget, and 2) not trying to fit into a party, thus making it easy and, you know, it wasn't that difficult to begin with, and you're not doing it for every NPC. Enjoy your hyperbole though

ArcadiaGM
2009-06-30, 11:15 AM
Yeah, NPCs aren't on a point budget, so they never have to be done as full write-ups unless you really want to for some reason.

I've used this metaphor in the past:

MMO's are like fast food: consistent, repetitive, but available all the time.

d20 is like dining out: good atmosphere, but a limited menu and it may not be prepared exactly like you want.

GURPS is like cooking at home. More work than dining out, but worth it if you like to cook and you can have exactly what you want.

GURPS is not plug and play, and the options available for creating characters can be really daunting. That being said, I wouldn't necesarily call it overly-complex - as a player, once you have a character, there are really only a few kinds of rolls you have to make in the system (success, quick contest, and influence, and damage) to do things, and of these all but damage rolls use a 3d6 roll-under mechanic. Playing the game can be very rules-light and straightforward. You must remember that every rule in GURPS is optional; to GM GURPS you do have to make those decisions, but you don't have to understand all of the options and subsystems that you don't intend to use.

mikeejimbo
2009-06-30, 11:15 AM
While I appreciate the idea of the active defense, I find that's where things can get most bogged down in combat. It's relatively easy to get active defenses such that it's almost impossible to hit the character, and it's also relatively easy to get attack skills high enough that a hit is almost guaranteed. This can devolve into "I hit." "He dodges." "I hit." "He dodges." ad infinitum until someone rolls a critical.

Dr. Kromm himself wrote a post addressing this issue, giving a long list of various maneuvers that you can do to prevent this. I'll see if I can dig that up and then I'll edit this post with a link.

Edit: Here is the link, (http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.php?p=751629&postcount=15) although looks like Cybren got most of them.

Cybren
2009-06-30, 11:24 AM
Dr. Kromm himself wrote a post addressing this issue, giving a long list of various maneuvers that you can do to prevent this. I'll see if I can dig that up and then I'll edit this post with a link.

I recall the post as well.

Off the top of my head, there's

Feinting
Counterattack
Hitting with both Dual-Weapon Attacks
Deceptive Attack
Attacking from the sides, back, or high ground.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-06-30, 12:34 PM
While I appreciate the idea of the active defense, I find that's where things can get most bogged down in combat. It's relatively easy to get active defenses such that it's almost impossible to hit the character, and it's also relatively easy to get attack skills high enough that a hit is almost guaranteed. This can devolve into "I hit." "He dodges." "I hit." "He dodges." ad infinitum until someone rolls a critical.

Unless you take some extremely expensive advantages and skills, you can only take ONE active defense per turn. So the best way to bust through someone's defenses is to gang up on them. This is what makes swarms of mooks dangerous in GURPS. Sure, you can parry the first hit, but what about the other six?

Cybren
2009-06-30, 01:12 PM
Unless you take some extremely expensive advantages and skills, you can only take ONE active defense per turn. So the best way to bust through someone's defenses is to gang up on them. This is what makes swarms of mooks dangerous in GURPS. Sure, you can parry the first hit, but what about the other six?

In 4E Multiple parries and blocks accrue penalties, while dodge doesn't (but is the hardest to raise and most easily hindered).

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-06-30, 01:34 PM
In 4E Multiple parries and blocks accrue penalties, while dodge doesn't (but is the hardest to raise and most easily hindered).

So similar concept, throw waves of mooks to overcome insane defenses. If the basic formula for making a Parry (1/2 weapon skill + PD) is roughly the same, then even a -1 on every additional means paring it down quickly. At least moves it to the other end of the bell curve and gives you a chance fairly rapidly.

fusilier
2009-06-30, 10:53 PM
While I appreciate the idea of the active defense, I find that's where things can get most bogged down in combat. It's relatively easy to get active defenses such that it's almost impossible to hit the character, and it's also relatively easy to get attack skills high enough that a hit is almost guaranteed. This can devolve into "I hit." "He dodges." "I hit." "He dodges." ad infinitum until someone rolls a critical.

I find characters made like this tend to be pretty stupid. Unless you are playing with relatively high points, dodging usually ends up being the only thing the character can do. Also there are things which cannot be dodged such as explosions (concussive damage). Finally, critical hits can occur when character rolls 10 points less than the target number (not simply on a 3 or 4), so high-powered npcs can easily defeat them. I personally as GM would usually reject a lopsided character during creation.

However, I think your issue is about what happens when two highly skilled characters fight, resulting in tedious combat as you described. One answer would be not to play with highly skilled characters. Also there are guidelines for making more balanced, high-powered characters. Finally, there are suggestions for how to handle this exact situation -- I think it involved a quick contest of skills.

Anyway, I find GURPS character creation easier than D&D, but I've probably made more GURPS characters than D&D ones.

NPCs in GURPS shouldn't be pointed out, just pick stats that you think will provide the right level of challenge for the players.

GURPS is a very easy system learn from the players perspective. As always the GM has a lot more work. I start a game by reviewing the rules and picking which ones I want to use for that campaign.

fusilier
2009-06-30, 10:56 PM
You can always dodge any attack at least once.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-06-30, 11:38 PM
You can always dodge any attack at least once.

Dodge, however, is tied to your Move, which (at least in 3e) was (Dex+HT)/4. In other words, somewhere around a 5. With PD2 (not unreasonable), that goes up to a 7. Even if you try to specifically boost it, without spending too many points on stats... let's say you have a Dex of 12 and HT of 12. That still comes out to a 6. Getting a Dex and HT *BOTH* at 14 is going to be prohibitively expensive for a 100, or even 150 point character to afford, but it would give you a Move of 7, which puts you at a 9.

Fencing allows 2/3 of skill for parry, so with a 15 skill, I have a base parry of 10, with the same PD2, that's a 12, which is on the wrong side of the bell curve for an Active Defense to be.

EDIT: Wait a second... you can always dodge every attack at least once? Wow, you used to have to have Trained By A Master (45 points) + Cinimatic Dodge (15/25 points) (Plus possibly Unusual Background to explain the fact that you have oriental training in a midevil european setting) to be able to pull that off in 3e...

Jayabalard
2009-06-30, 11:43 PM
Dodge, however, is tied to your Move, which (at least in 3e) was (Dex+HT)/4. In other words, somewhere around a 5. With PD2 (not unreasonable), that goes up to a 7. Even if you try to specifically boost it, without spending too many points on stats... let's say you have a Dex of 12 and HT of 12. That still comes out to a 6. Getting a Dex and HT *BOTH* at 14 is going to be prohibitively expensive for a 100, or even 150 point character to afford, but it would give you a Move of 7, which puts you at a 9.

Fencing allows 2/3 of skill for parry, so with a 15 skill, I have a base parry of 10, with the same PD2, that's a 12, which is on the wrong side of the bell curve for an Active Defense to be..
Regarding fencing and staff parry: I've been told by a friend that this was fixed a bit for 4e. They made those weapons a static +2 to parry rather than 2/3 skill.


EDIT: Wait a second... you can always dodge every attack at least once? Wow, you used to have to have Trained By A Master (45 points) + Cinimatic Dodge (15/25 points) to be able to pull that off in 3e..Not so; b98 under dodge. "You may dodge any attack, except one that you did not know about. There is no limit to the number of times you may dodge in one turn."

Townopolis
2009-06-30, 11:52 PM
Problems of high defense tend to come up with broadsword & Shield at 16, plate armor, and a medium shield. I think a decent knight ends up with about 14 block and parry after PD is added.

8 (1/2 skills) +3 (shield pd) +3 (armor pd)

I don't have a book in front of me, so I'm unsure how much PD is on breast/half/full plate exactly.

Then the knight has a DR around 5.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-06-30, 11:56 PM
Problems of high defense tend to come up with broadsword & Shield at 16, plate armor, and a medium shield. I think a decent knight ends up with about 14 block and parry after PD is added.

8 (1/2 skills) +3 (shield pd) +3 (armor pd)

I don't have a book in front of me, so I'm unsure how much PD is on breast/half/full plate exactly.

Then the knight has a DR around 5.

First off, plate armor is freeking expensive. Unless he payed for the advantage Wealthy, he's not going to be able to afford it early on.

Second, the problem with Shields is that they only protect in the front hex and the hex adjacent to it on the side the shield is on. So if you can 'flank' him, he can't apply his Shield's PD to the attack, nor can he use the Block skill against it.


Not so; b98 under dodge. "You may dodge any attack, except one that you did not know about. There is no limit to the number of times you may dodge in one turn."
Yea, that used to require over 60 points in advantages to be able to do. In 3e, you had ONE Active Defense in a turn, unless you spent stupid amount of points to increase this.

warmachine
2009-07-01, 03:50 AM
PD, passive defence, was eliminated in 4e. The maths with PD was recognised as problematic. Dodge is now (DX+HT)/4 + 3, which is 8 by default; Parry and Block are skill/2 + 3.

Jürgen Hubert
2009-07-01, 06:57 AM
1) Yes, the basic system is simple, but the basic system does almost nothing by itself. It's the picking & choosing of all the modular add-ons & figuring out how they will work together that gives the game it's well-earned reputation as the Toughest System to Master.

2) So, uh, Mr. GM, what do you do for NPCs, huh? They need stats too. And then you're in the same boat as your players. Only they go through the process once, whereas the GM goes through it over & over again, for every NPC.

Definitely not. Character points are purely an accounting device for player characters, so there is no point at all trying to figure them out for NPCs, especially since they do not represent "combat power" or something like that.

Just give them any stats you want - they will be rules-legal.

Cyrion
2009-07-01, 09:45 AM
You could get even your dodges up to numbers with a fair chance of success. Add running skill, something with even a modest PD of 2 or so, and a successful acrobatics roll and you're looking at a dodge you'll make most of the time.

For major NPC's, I've always built them on points if they're going to be one the PC's have to defeat. Depending on how tough I want them to be, I'll build them with 15-100 points more than the player. Then they get one experience point for every PC they interact with in a session. Since they're rarely in consecutive sessions, the PC's eventually catch up enough to be able to take them out, but it also gives me a good mechanism for making enemies progress too.

fusilier
2009-07-02, 09:37 AM
Yea, that used to require over 60 points in advantages to be able to do. In 3e, you had ONE Active Defense in a turn, unless you spent stupid amount of points to increase this.

I play 3rd edition GURPS, I don't have the books in front of me, but I don't remember that limitation. You can parry only one attack. More specifically you could use only one parry/block per attack per turn. But you could attempt to dodge any number of attacks. Example: Fighting with a rapier and main gauche, you could *attempt* to parry one attack with your rapier skill, *attempt* to parry a second attack with main gauche skill, and all other attacks the only thing you could attempt to do is dodge.

That's the way I'm thinking about it, but I may be wrong. It could be that you could use one active defense (parry or block) per turn, but you could always dodge.

As already pointed out, in 3rd edition dodging was more difficult.


If you used something like all-out defense you could use two *different* active defenses against a single attack, but dodge could only be used once against any attack, and if you are being attacked a lot, and you run out of parry's/blocks then you could only dodge.

Maybe someone with the books handy can clear this up? I think Jayabalard's reference might be to 3rd edition GURPS actually.

fusilier
2009-07-02, 09:49 AM
Wyvern_55 -- now that we've hijacked your thread. Get a copy of gurps lite. It's free, and gives you the basics of the system. You should be able to download it. There's actually enough in it to run a game, but you will probably want to get the core rule books. The differences between 3rd and 4th editions aren't extreme. Mainly minor changes to attributes, and derived stats.

Once I understood what fatigue represented in 3rd edition, I really liked it, then they went and changed it in 4th. Also *I* liked PD, even if there were some potential statistical oddities to it. So I've stuck with 3rd, but there's really not much difference.

Unwitting Pawn
2009-09-25, 11:00 AM
Hopefully this won't be considered necromancy yet, but I'm interested to know how the OP's campaign is getting on.

Any news Wyvern_55?