Belkar vs. O'Chul - place your bets

[Zerter]

O'Chul pretty much lay down the smack on Belkar, so who will win this classic fight of chaos vs. law and good vs. evil?

In one corner we have the sexy shoeless god of war, weighing in around 30 pounds (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0087.html), he has nothing to lose and everything to gain in a last ditch attempt to finally fulfill his life long dream of killing a Paladin, his specialities include: favored enemies "Humans" as well as "Beings of Pure Law and Good" (unfortunately does not stack) and "rage of deep seated emotional problems". Motto: "If I can kill it here, I can kill it anywhere." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0206.html)

In the other corner we have the Paladin of Perseverance, weighing in around 125 pounds (having been preparing on a diet of stew (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0549.html)), his favorite weapons include pointy metal objects (which comes in handy when you carry a stick up your butt as a class feature) and hands of gutting, his specialities include acid swimming, making you feel bad about yourself and taking GODLY amounts of damage. Motto: "Life is like a go board."

Who will win in the battle of the four warrior base classes? Will wisdom or charisma prove to be the worse dumpstat? Find out within a mere seven weeks!

[daggaz]

O'Chuul will win hands down, by using his most superior weapon, his intellect and superhuman wisdom score.

Tho I will be sad to see the Belkstar go, gotta love the little creep, but he hasn't a chance in that fight.

[rainbowjo]

I would say you win an internet, but i dont think pixies are qualified to give them :)

[EmeraldPhoenix]

I would say you win an internet, but i dont think pixies are qualified to give them :)

But I am!

Here, have an internet!:smallbiggrin:

[Snake-Aes]

But I am!

Here, have an internet!:smallbiggrin:

Using my bugbear authority, here I sign and approve Belkar=awsome's deed.

[Mr. Scaly]

I saw this coming the moment I read "I will gut you with my hands." :smallbiggrin: Ochul all the way!

[Charmy]

O-Chul definitely!

Belkar may be able to win against high level rogues that forget to Feint, but against a full BAB class as tough as O-Chul, Belkar's unoptimized build would never be able to inflict the damage needed to outlast a paladin.

And of course his vulnerability to Smite Evil doesn't help and offsets the Favored Enemy: Human that Belkar probably has.

It probably wouldn't be a straight fight as Belkar is not adverse to underhanded tactics against foes which overpower him. However, I believe O-Chul is insightful enough to see through most of his ruses and wouldn't let himself get frustrated and baited the way Miko did.

[marquiz]

Two golds on the bald human with scars.

[nybbler]

Even Belkar has enough wisdom to realize that he can't beat O'Chul. And he doesn't hate him personally enough to use trickery which is also doomed to fail (as with Miko). So I think Belkar is going to stay out of O'Chul's way.

[fangthane]

Umm, let's recalculate that weigh-in for O-Chul, shall we? Minimum weight on the chart for Human is 120 pounds, assuming zeroes were rolled for height and weight. Even assuming he's lost a lot of weight in his incarceration (which isn't precisely clear, and is indeed unlikely if the MitD was as generous as he seems liable to have been) he's going to weigh in at a minimum of about 100-120.

In our campaign, he'd be even heavier; we impose a houseruled +5 pound modifier (half for Small, double for Large, etc) for each natural point of strength or con bonus.

Assuming they're both of similar level (about 14ish) and that their con scores have been fairly represented, O-Chul (10+13*5.5+14*8 = 193hp) is likely to defeat Belkar (assuming 3 levels of Barb rather than just one, 8+10*4.5+3*6.5 +14*4 = 128hp) based on attrition and his insanely high con score (don't recall the source but I do recall the Giant indicating it was somewhere in the mid-high 20s; I roughed it at 26 but removing 14hp isn't going to change things much)

Now, if Belkar had gone for Rogue instead of barbarian, that might be different... But as we all know, the OotS consider "minmax" to be a naughty word. ;)

[Gez]

Who will win in the battle of the four warrior base classes?

O Chul is multiclassed as a Fighter?

[Conuly]

O Chul is multiclassed as a Fighter?

He started as a fighter, then switched to Paladin, that's why his charisma is so lousy.

[Spiryt]

In the other corner we have the Paladin of Perseverance, weighing in around 65 pounds

Where are you taking it from? I can't find in link.

And 65 pounds for a adult human, is death from anorexia.

[Zerter]

Where are you taking it from? I can't find in link.

And 65 pounds for a adult human, is death from anorexia.

I made it up, it is a play on UA paladins of freedom, slaughter and tyranny.

Changed the weight.

[King of Nowhere]

O-Chul is so awesome, Belkar would spontaneusly kneel before him. Seriously, if he could see all the stuff O-Chul did...

And in an actual fight, I don't think Belkar is patient enough to take away every single hp, even if O-Chul stand still and don't react. He would get bored at hitting an opponent who don't scream for mercy and is apparently untouched by the damage he deal.

[Freelance Henchman]

Belkar would just smack O-Chul down with the 50 pound lead sheet he carries around at all times.

[FeAnPi]

Well, I have a 16 years old friends of roughly 65 pounds, but he is rather small, weak and thin, not an O-Chul. :smallbiggrin:

And I say... O-Chul, of course.

[Finwe]

10gp on O-chul.

O-chul would probably have the advantage in a 1-on-1, assuming he was equipped with gear equivalent to Belkar's. I imagine their fighting capabilities are roughly equivalent, but O-chul seems a bit smarter, and has a massive HP advantage.

[Spiryt]

Well, I have a 16 years old friends of roughly 65 pounds, but he is rather small, weak and thin, not an O-Chul. :smallbiggrin:

And I say... O-Chul, of course.

Maybe kilograms :smalltongue:?

Seriously though, 65 pounds is definetly abnormally low for healthy 16 year old.

[FeAnPi]

Maybe kilograms :smalltongue:?

Seriously though, 65 pounds is definetly abnormally low for healthy 16 year old.
No, no, pounds! Actually, more 70 than 65 (nearly 35 kilograms), but he is a real kender, if you ask me.:smalleek:


And... wait! He plays LARPs with me and uses two swords... and he is a ranger! HE IS BELKAR!:smalleek:

[Spiryt]

No, no, pounds! Actually, more 70 than 65 (nearly 35 kilograms), but he is a real kender, if you ask me.:smalleek:


And... wait! He plays LARPs with me and uses two swords... and he is a ranger! HE IS BELKAR!:smalleek:

Actually 70 pounds is nearly 32 kg, I know a guy who is around that age and is also really small, those are some hormonal problems, and lets end this offtop, before it gets out of control. :smallwink:

[FeAnPi]

Actually 70 pounds is nearly 32 kg, I know a guy who is around that age and is also really small, those are some hormonal problems, and lets end this offtop, before it gets out of control. :smallwink:

Ah, ok... I do not know well how all this pound system works (I approximate as in D&D, 1 pound = 0,5 lg).
And now I know that my friend is like a real Belkar... not good. :smalleek:

Anyway, returning IT, Belkar showes his power mostly when he fights low level enemies, while O-Chul showed his skill fighting overpowering threats... Belkar is a sexy shoeless god of war, maybe, but O-Chul is really a sexy hairless god of power.:smallcool:

[Fri]

Belkar managed to hold his own for a while using subterfuge and sneakery against miko, and miko is way stronger than o chul.

[SadisticFishing]

O-Chul... 125 pounds?

No way. He weighs in at AT LEAST 170, probably 200, ish, when he's actually eating.

[MReav]

I'd say he might weigh 120 pounds after that steady stream of mistreatment.

[Spiryt]

O-Chul... 125 pounds?

No way. He weighs in at AT LEAST 170, probably 200, ish, when he's actually eating.

125 pounds is legitimate minimum for human male in SRD. If O-Chul's bigger than that - we can only guess. :smallamused:

[Finwe]

Keep in mind, O-chul wasn't exactly being starved - the MiTD kept giving him stew. And, while he was forced into life-endangering situations quite frequently, he was always healed afterwards. If you think about it, if he had instead been attending an elite adventurer training camp, his experience probably wouldn't have been terribly different. Probably a lot more pleasant, but no less grueling.

[Crel]

My money's on Belkar. I don't remember where, but the Giant once mentioned this sort of flowchart of authority:

Jokes > Plot > Rules

It would be hilarious for Belkar the Sexy Shoeless God Of War to kill O-Chul, take his head, and wear it as a helmet, then get killed by the rest of the world for doing so. It would also fill his ambitions of killing a Paladin, both of which are above Rules as shown above.

As guessed statted out above, O-Chul would probably win. However, O-Chul is only truly limited to his abilities as a Fighter/Paladin, because of his Stick up the Ass class feature. Belkar is only limited by his own ingenuity. Which includes, but is not limited to, the Flying Stabbing Halfling attack (vs. green hag), The False Honor System (vs The Lawyers) and The Good Ol' Stab It Until It Stops Bleeding tactic. Anyone care to bet on some other ideas a Sexy Shoeless God Of War could easily come up with on the spot?

[Finwe]

My money's on Belkar. I don't remember where, but the Giant once mentioned this sort of flowchart of authority:

Jokes > Plot > Rules

I'm pretty sure it's actually Plot > Jokes > Rules - it wouldn't make much sense to screw up the entire plot for the sake of a joke, now would it?

[Linkavitch]

Using my bugbear authority, here I sign and approve Belkar=awsome's deed.

I second the motion. But, we need to stop the ranking-mentioning, or the thread is gonna get locked.

I vote Belkar. He's my fav character. I really, really hope with all my heart he will win!:smallbiggrin:

[fangthane]

I'd accept 125 as a low-end estimate given that he's been mistreated and probably malnourished for months, even assuming that recently he might have been on the mend thanks to the MitD. Real-world analogues (don't make me tell you where I got 'em or I'll lose lol) lead me to believe that losing as much as 40% of his body mass under those circumstances would be about the most he could bear, probably closer to 30, so that seems about right.

@fri - remember that Miko wasn't optimised at all as a character, while O-Chul is pretty much superbly optimised for a melee attrition fight, given equal armor and weapons against a similarly capable non-optimal build. He won't chase Belkar singlemindedly the way Miko did, and Belkar can't stand against him toe to toe. Belkar is as weak a match against O-Chul as V against Miko.

Roy might be able to take O-Chul based on Power Attacks (which O might not have), and V or Durkon could probably take him down if they had to... But they wouldn't want to. Elan, if played the way I play bards*, could take down O-Chul and Belkar simultaneously. But again, he wouldn't want to.

*I'm probably near the only person on these forums who'll say this, but... Bards are horrendously overpowered as of 6th level. Even moreso at 12th, and it really gets nuts if they take Leadership. Don't believe me? Check Fascinate/Suggestion and what Inspire Courage/Greatness can do with the right feats. One of my BBEGs is a bard with the Requiem feat. Nasty. Fascinate DC of 1d20+21 -- 14(ranks)+3(circlet)+5(cha)+2(mw) -- is a pretty rough will save for a level 11 party (typical clerical will save of +15 max, all others lower) to beat. The Suggestion's only a DC 20 but he gets to re-try it up to 11 times before re-Fascinating, so no worries there. The suggestion? "Don't worry about my undead servitors; they're harmless."

[pendell]

O-Chul definitely!

Belkar may be able to win against high level rogues that forget to Feint, but against a full BAB class as tough as O-Chul, Belkar's unoptimized build would never be able to inflict the damage needed to outlast a paladin.

And of course his vulnerability to Smite Evil doesn't help and offsets the Favored Enemy: Human that Belkar probably has.

It probably wouldn't be a straight fight as Belkar is not adverse to underhanded tactics against foes which overpower him. However, I believe O-Chul is insightful enough to see through most of his ruses and wouldn't let himself get frustrated and baited the way Miko did.

I put 100 gold on Belkar.

Something you folks are forgetting is that Belkar has already fought Miko and succeeded in knocking her cold. He could have coup-de-graced her .. but he was more interested in making her fall than in making her die. If it weren't for that, he would have won the fight.

Belkar would win, because he's chaotic. In a straight fight, yes, O-chul would win. But Belkar will go guerrilla the way he did against Miko. If he's playing for keeps and to kill, I say he's got about a 70% chance of killing O-chul. O-chul, like all the other paladins of Azure City, is just so absurdly lawful they get outclassed when they match wits with a really chaotic person. See: Xykon's shell game, Belkar's cat-and-mouse game.

Belkar will win, not because he's a better fighter -- he's not -- but because he's more cunning and more ruthless than O-chul can ever hope to be.

Respectfully,

Brian P .

[Axl_Rose]

I really don't think O'chul is 125 pounds. I'm already pretty thin/skinny myself and I'm 135 pounds.

I'd put O'chul at 160.

[RecklessFable]

Belkar is the ultimate force of good in this world. O'Chul will be blinded by his radiance and bow down in worship. His only chance of survival is if The Redeemer grants him clemency for uttering his futile threat against The Holy Entrails.

[Ytaker]

O'Chul. d10 hit dice, high constitution. Belkar has a better reflex save, most likely, but given that their BABs are roughly the same, O'Chul would be able to do a lot of damage.

Plus, he's proved his creativity and intelligence in Xykon's trials. He wouldn't go down as easily as Belkar. And Belkar isn't currently in a city, which complicates the whole hide and stealth attack thing.

[Khaeta]

Belkar. By throwing an angry feline in O'Chul's soft and unprotected face :smallamused:.

[Taelas]

You forget that Mr. Scruffy has known O-Chul longer than he has known Belkar.

My money's on O-Chul. I'm certain he gained a few levels while in captivity.

[TheLibrarian]

Belkar. By throwing an angry feline in O'Chul's soft and unprotected face :smallamused:.

Hmm
I was going to say O'Chul but Mr. Scruffy adds a whole new level to the fight.
On a side note, 5cp says Belkar dies saving Mr. Scruffy

[Jeivar]

There is simply no way that Belkar could whittle down O-Chul's HP fast enough to not be killed first. No way in hell.

[Puppeteer]

Belkar.
Between the tough but righteous guy and the small but evil bastard, always bet on the one who won't think twice about playing dirty all the way, and craving for your half portion of your head to be transformed into a litter.

[Cracklord]

The problem is O-Chul is not stupid. He is not going to march up and challenge Belkar to a duel. If he wants him dead, he will kill Belkar before the little bugger has a chance to blink.
He didn't warn Redcloak or Jirix when he went at them. He just brutalised them with an Iron bar until they can't get up. He doesn't fight any fairer then Belkar. And there's the problem that O-Chul isn't proud. If he needed healing he'd ask for it, if he needed help he'd ask for it.
Who'd help Belkar kill a noble and self sacrificing man?

By the way, the fight will take place in seven weeks.

[Thanatosia]

O-Chul would lay waste to Belkar. Even if he wasn't the strongest paladin in the Sapphire guard at the time of the siege of Sapphire City, he's had to be netting in MAD xps spending day in and day out for weeks going through Xykon's boredom induced death-challenges. He's had to have gained a couple levels at the least for all the acid-breathing sharks, traps, undead gladiators, etc he's been pitted against relentlessly - hell, he should have got xp for defeating redcloak even, and if I was a GM i'd certainly have given him bonus xp for acts of heroism too.

Belkar managed to hold his own for a while using subterfuge and sneakery against miko, and miko is way stronger than o chul.
Miko was insane, and behaved in a entirely predictable manner that was easy to string along and get her to do exactly what belker wanted her to do. O'chul is another matter altogether.

[Callista]

I think the matchup depends on who gets the drop on who.

O-Chul is definitely going to be watching Belkar; but if Belkar manages it, it'll be his style to set a trap. Remember how Belkar surprised Miko with the sake/fire trap? Same deal. Belkar's a ranger, and that makes him a natural hunter--including tracking and trap-setting. If Belkar can get O-Chul into a trap, O-chul may have difficulty getting out. If it depends on O-Chul's dexterity or charisma to escape, there could be problems. I also think Belkar is unlikely to attempt to whittle down O-Chul's HP. He will most likely go for ability score damage/drain instead. Think poison, sickness, etc.

Belkar's big weakness here is his low Wisdom score. He's playing his "I'm reformed" act pretty well, but if there's enough of a temptation to slaughter something innocent, he may just be impulsive enough to sign his own death warrant. Facing O-Chul without preparation is deadly to this particular unoptimized halfling, almost definitely, whether or not he has a level or two on O-Chul. If Belkar reveals exactly how evil he still is, O-Chul will get his handful of halfling intestine.

Here's what it comes down to: Can Belkar outsmart O-Chul long enough to avoid doing something impulsive; and can he overcome O-Chul's sheer toughness and insight long enough to lay a proper trap? The paladin is a known entity in this case: He'll keep an eye on Belkar until something tells him Belkar's up to no good; if Belkar attacks, he'll defend. Belkar, on the other hand, is a wild card. He could do anything--or nothing at all.

Belkar may actually be up against an even fight. He's got the same advantage that any sociopath has over the typical citizen: He gets to make the first move. If O-Chul detects him making it, Belkar's dead; but if Belkar manages to prepare well enough, O-Chul could well end up joining the majority of the Sapphire Guard.

[73 Bits of Lint]

Belkar is a Sexy Shoeless God of War; O'Chul is a wannabe meme. The halfling will win every time.
Besides which, Belkar is CE, which means any conflict would almost certainly start with him. Being the one to start the fight and control its terms would be a great advantage.


Plus, he's proved his creativity and intelligence in Xykon's trials. He wouldn't go down as easily as Belkar. And Belkar isn't currently in a city, which complicates the whole hide and stealth attack thing.
I don't see how trying to punch a lich in the face demonstrates either creativity or intelligence. Stubbornness, toughness, balls of steel, all these are true. But it isn't smart.

As for being in a city: Technically, Belkar is a ranger, which means that he should be better at sneaking around out in the woods. Not that this means much, as Belkar seems to miss (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0022.html) a lot of the point of being a Ranger (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0058.html).

[King of Nowhere]

Yeah, O-Chul is not the lawful stupid guy some of you think he is. He won't fall like Miko in Belkar's trap. So, Belkar is a goner.
I must concede that if the fight take place in an area with plenty of hiding spot, and O-Chul wore heavy armor, then Belkar could succeed in the hide and snipe tactic. But he would need returning knife, otherwise there's no way he can kill O-Chul without running out of ammo.

[Callista]

Belkar had to make do with what he happened to find in his surroundings when he fought Miko. If he gets the chance to actually prepare, he may be able to do a lot more. Of course, "prepare" and "Belkar" in the same sentence may not fit together all that well... it all depends on how patient the little psychopath is.


I don't see how trying to punch a lich in the face demonstrates either creativity or intelligence. Stubbornness, toughness, balls of steel, all these are true. But it isn't smart.Well, if you and your one or two HP are going to be standing around for the next round anyway until you're knocked out and carted back to your cage, there's no point in NOT trying to punch the lich in the face. Sure, the last half-dozen times, Xykon had a ready action to zap you with an insultingly low-level spell of his choice, but boy wouldn't it be satisfying if he forgot this time and the punch landed!

[King of Nowhere]

I don't see how trying to punch a lich in the face demonstrates either creativity or intelligence. Stubbornness, toughness, balls of steel, all these are true. But it isn't smart.


Waiting for the right moment to escape, charging Redcloak, taking away his holy symbol, trying to throw the phylactery into the rift, charging Xykon to cover the flight of Blackwing, then trying to escape. He didn't missed a move. He did the best he could have done with his resources. Even the way he talk with Redcloak when Redcloak is threatening to throw prisoners in the rift reveals a smart mind. I'd give O-Chul a 15.



if I was a GM i'd certainly have given him bonus xp for acts of heroism too.

If I was the master, I would have the first weapon he uses turned into an holy avenger by the pure strenght of his devotion.

[Bibliomancer]

I put 100 gold on Belkar.

Wager accepted. Shall we agree to 1 to 1 odds? In the unlikely event of this fight ever actually happening, how about the loser has to post "I owe [winner] 100 gp" in their sig for...12 months?

Also, does external help count?

[02youeng]

Despite how much I like Belkar, O-Chul would win. Even if he was a few levels higher, he could never wittle down O-Chul's appearently endless HP pool. One, he's Small sized, which means smaller weapons and a Str negative. Two, his AC never seemed to be high, and against a full BAB O-Chul, he'll get hit, and have a hard time hitting O-Chul back too - heavy armour. Three, he's just not patient enough to lay a cunning enough trap, and O-Chul's Wis score will help him out with Sense Motive and Spot checks anyway. My money's on O-Chul.

[Callista]

If I was the master, I would have the first weapon he uses turned into an holy avenger by the pure strenght of his devotion.Nah. That kind of thing is expected when you're a paladin. O-Chul is particularly unlucky and particularly experienced at being a paladin, that's all.

Yes. They are supposed to be that good.

(If this were a game and I were the DM, the player would be getting XP for sheer ingenuity, and willingness to actually fight without all his cool equipment. Not every player is willing to take a power hit like that. I personally think it is an interesting challenge, and had a lot of fun solving the how-to-escape problem when my character got hit with the old "imprisoned and equipment confiscated" routine. Without your equipment you get more XP anyway because it's a bigger challenge. Holy Avengers aside, O-Chul would be a shoo-in for Exalted feats and prestige classes at this point, which if used properly can definitely increase power level.)

So here's something we haven't thought about yet: If Belkar wins, what then?

They're fully capable of resurrecting O-Chul; they may or may not do so; but you can bet Belkar will be the first suspect. If Belkar kills O-Chul, Belkar will have to go on the run or get executed on the spot; and running isn't going to be so easy--not with V there to cast Divination spells and find him. Y'know what's ironic: V's alignment has always been closest to Belkar's, and if Belkar had taken advantage of this, he might have an ally. But Belkar has unwisely made an enemy of V instead...

[Cracklord]

O-Chul is definitely going to be watching Belkar; but if Belkar manages it, it'll be his style to set a trap. Remember how Belkar surprised Miko with the sake/fire trap? Same deal. Belkar's a ranger, and that makes him a natural hunter--including tracking and trap-setting. If Belkar can get O-Chul into a trap, O-chul may have difficulty getting out. If it depends on O-Chul's dexterity or charisma to escape, there could be problems. I also think Belkar is unlikely to attempt to whittle down O-Chul's HP. He will most likely go for ability score damage/drain instead. Think poison, sickness, etc.


A trap? Say, like a giant tank of acid, with spikes, and an acid breathing shark?
Belkar doesn't have the resources to come up with anything that would slow O-Chul down. Fire ain't going to cut it this time, skippy.

O-Chul does not simply charge in and swing blindly, rather he does what works. That's why he beat Redcloak, that's why he pulled one over Xykon.

[veti]

Belkar would win easily.

C'mon, folks, think metagame. Which one is the PC? Which one brings his own dice to every session?

To say nothing of a proven track record of beating up the Sapphire Guard's strongest paladin (ergo, stronger than O-Chul, at least then)? On her home turf, no less.

As for Mr Scruffy, he's clearly Belkar's Animal Companion. O-Chul would rather follow unlawful orders than clean out his litter box (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0404.html). He wouldn't hesitate in picking sides.

Case closed.

[Cracklord]

Belkar would win easily.

C'mon, folks, think metagame. Which one is the PC? Which one brings his own dice to every session?

To say nothing of a proven track record of beating up the Sapphire Guard's strongest paladin (ergo, stronger than O-Chul, at least then)? On her home turf, no less.

As for Mr Scruffy, he's clearly Belkar's Animal Companion. O-Chul would rather follow unlawful orders than clean out his litter box (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0404.html). He wouldn't hesitate in picking sides.

Case closed.

So then why did V get curbstomped by Xykon? Could it be that the PC's can't do what they want with impunity, and this is in fact a RPG, not a video game?

Miko beat him and the entire order together. Hell, Belkar got beaten by her horse. And while he did mannage to knock her out, he woke her up and then she won fairly. So he's got one in four? That's not a proven track record, that's he won once.

O-Chul did in one round what Miko did in more then four against Redcloak, seeming to hint he's stronger.

And what does Mr Scruffy have to do with it?


Belkar. By throwing an angry feline in O'Chul's soft and unprotected face :smallamused:.

Soft, unprotected? Are we talking about the same character? O-Chul can use his face to sunder weapons.

[veti]

So then why did V get curbstomped by Xykon? Could it be that the PC's can't do what they want with impunity, and this is in fact a RPG, not a video game?

V vs X was a different kind of fight altogether: that was a player who'd quite clearly got carried away and needed a severe stomping to get them back into the game. ("Scry-and-die tactics" are so named for a reason.) I guess if Belkar goes out of his way to pick a fight, the DM might decide to punish him similarly, but there's no sign of him doing that yet.


Miko beat him and the entire order together. Hell, Belkar got beaten by her horse. And while he did mannage to knock her out, he woke her up and then she won fairly. So he's got one in four? That's not a proven track record.

Fair point, although Miko had artificial (DM-added) advantages in their first encounter, and her horse had surprise. But for her "winning fairly", Belkar wanted her to win. "It would've been HILARIOUS".


O-Chul did in one round what Miko did in more then four against Redcloak, seeming to hint he's stronger.

One surprise round, with RC un-buffed. O-Chul got lucky. We're told quite explicitly (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0290.html) that Miko is the strongest paladin in the SG.


And what does Mr Scruffy have to do with it?

Only that some people seemed to think he might not support the Belkster in this hypothetical fight (which, for the record, I'm convinced will never happen, because neither of them is that dumb).

[Snake-Aes]

I second the motion. But, we need to stop the ranking-mentioning, or the thread is gonna get locked.

I vote Belkar. He's my fav character. I really, really hope with all my heart he will win!:smallbiggrin:

People have such bad sense of humor :/ An authority joke started, another one followed, and I kept it.

[ArcadiaGM]

My money is on the guy who *isn't* fated to die in seven weeks. Just saying.

[Cracklord]

One surprise round, with RC un-buffed. O-Chul got lucky. We're told quite explicitly (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0290.html) that Miko is the strongest paladin in the SG.



Right. And Redcloak and Miko's fight wasn't a surprise? Miko got the first round, so she had an advantage over O-Chul in the two fights. And she had, you know, equipment, which may have been a small advantage.
And we were told by Miko, who also said that Roy was part of a vast conspiracy that involved Xykon and Lord Shojo, and that even when the twelve gods took away her powers they had a plan for her. So I'm not sure how true that is.

OK, so don't count the storm. How about after the inn? Miko won with no advantages whatsoever. Four one track record for Belkar, if you don't count her winning in the end then one three.

O-Chul is at least level 16, as he has been shown to make four attacks in one round. Belkar is level fifteen at the most. O-Chul is far better optomised, as other posters have pointed out.

And I can't see a housecat effecting the outcome in any way, not that I don't like Mr Scruffy (actually I like him better then Belkar).

[L'intrigant]

Well, since O-Chul is immortal and Belkar is a god...I think it'd boil down to whose victory would leave a better opportunity for a clever quip. :smalltongue:

[theinsulabot]

I put 100 gold on Belkar.

Something you folks are forgetting is that Belkar has already fought Miko and succeeded in knocking her cold. He could have coup-de-graced her .. but he was more interested in making her fall than in making her die. If it weren't for that, he would have won the fight.

Belkar would win, because he's chaotic. In a straight fight, yes, O-chul would win. But Belkar will go guerrilla the way he did against Miko. If he's playing for keeps and to kill, I say he's got about a 70% chance of killing O-chul. O-chul, like all the other paladins of Azure City, is just so absurdly lawful they get outclassed when they match wits with a really chaotic person. See: Xykon's shell game, Belkar's cat-and-mouse game.

Belkar will win, not because he's a better fighter -- he's not -- but because he's more cunning and more ruthless than O-chul can ever hope to be.

Respectfully,

Brian P .


yeah i thought about that to, except two major differences, o-chul's godly amounts of hp, and the fact that o-chul has hot dice. a battle of attrition means o-chul will get plenty of spot and listen rolls, i think we all agree that o-chul has little to no ability in those areas, BUT, combine o-chul being able to take many, many thrown weapons other such hp whittling effects, and his tendancy to roll 20s, i think o-chul would catch belkar before belkar had whittled down enough HP to be able to overcome o-chul in a straight fight

[GoC]

My bet goes on the guy who spent the last few months beating very high CR death traps.

[Koragi85]

O'Chul will definately take the gold home in this fight.

I believe it was mentioned in the comic that he took levels in fighter as well, before Paladin, but I could be wrong.

And after seeing the beating O'Chul took from Xykon.... Itll be hard to see Belkar take him, THOUGH he did give Miko a good run for her money. And who's to say maybe she was a better fighter than O'Chul?

Time will only tell.....

[Mr. Shiny Objec]

O-Chul, For he is the one and only.

[King of Nowhere]

Soft, unprotected? Are we talking about the same character? O-Chul can use his face to sunder weapons.

This could fit well in the O-Chul facts.

[Hacktor]

Ochul's a calculated individual.. not rash like Miko... My money's on O'chul

[homeosapiens]

My money ison Belar. Noone ever said he has low con + he has rage. I think that B. got all first three stats fairly high, and mental very low. Like 16/18/16/8/9/10. He got more attacks (duble wielding), and we rarely see him miss. And his Ac with just shild was high enought to prevent 2 high level rouges(1 of them was four lv higher, prob+5 sword) from landing even a single hit.

He can fight by attrition, have favored enemies, have a cat to flank with him(means he hit more often) +O chul hasonly 4 usesof SE - He can miss with them. Dont tell me he s big damage dealer - both RC and J were seriously wounded, and RC recived a critical +smite, and still wasnt cnocked down.

[Cracklord]

My money ison Belar. Noone ever said he has low con + he has rage. I think that B. got all first three stats fairly high, and mental very low. Like 16/18/16/8/9/10. He got more attacks (duble wielding), and we rarely see him miss. And his Ac with just shild was high enought to prevent 2 high level rouges(1 of them was four lv higher, prob+5 sword) from landing even a single hit.

He can fight by attrition, have favored enemies, have a cat to flank with him(means he hit more often) +O chul hasonly 4 usesof SE - He can miss with them. Dont tell me he s big damage dealer - both RC and J were seriously wounded, and RC recived a critical +smite, and still wasnt cnocked down.

You raise some relevant points (I think, it's hard to tell), but any Cleric of RC's level who can't survive one hit with an improvised weapon isn't worth their shiny holy symbol.

Belkar can fight by Attrition through taking the total defense action. This would work for a while, but sooner or later those attacks would start getting through, one way or another, and it stops him fighting back. In addition, the shield was likely enchanted (If you want to say the sword is 5+ it hardly seems unreasonable). Attrition he would have to try to wear down O-Chuls ridiculously high number of hitpoints, and even if we assume he does have a reasonable constitution it's still not on O-Chuls level. Also, Belkar seems to have a low armor class, as he is hit quite frequently by low level enemies.

Favored Enemy gives him a small bonus, but he has low level rage, and it about cancels out O-Chuls Smite Evil. It's a long shot to make any claims about their class features without knowing what level they are, but O-Chul is probably higher level, as we have seen him make four attacks in a round, where Belkar has been shown making three with each hand.

[pendell]

Wager accepted. Shall we agree to 1 to 1 odds? In the unlikely event of this fight ever actually happening, how about the loser has to post "I owe [winner] 100 gp" in their sig for...12 months?


You're on.



Also, does external help count?

Well, then it's not really a duel, is it? If it comes to it, O-chul has the entire Sapphire Guard to help him. The OOTS might intervene to the point of saving Belkar's life, but they won't help him actually kill O-chul.

I would say the bet is 100 gold on a 1v1 between O-chul and Belkar. No outside help, unless said outside help is neutral (e.g., they're both in Greysky city, and can hire minions or buy healing equally). But no bet on Belkar vs. O-chul and the Sapphire Guard together.

I disagree with those posters who think O-chul wouldn't sucker the way Miko did. He'll be harder to trick, because he's not insane, but remember that Belkar got to Miko by appealing to her honor. O-chul also has honor and is probably a samurai (social rank only, not the class) as well. That means there are certain expectations he must meet, certain things he cannot do. Fight him within that box, and you'll be beaten. But Belkar is willing to go outside the box, using those limitations to full advantage.

The reason we punish cheaters in real sports and in academics is because cheaters *do* win when fighting people who play fair. If no one ever got an unfair advantage by cheating, no one would ever cheat, right? That's why we disqualify people who won't play by the rules. Of course you can win if you fight dirty ... but who wants to play with a cheater?

But there are far fewer restrictions when in war or in fighting for your life.

That's why -- IMO -- the first blow Belkar will hit O-chul in the honor, forcing O-chul to fight 'honorably' while Belkar fights dirty. Belkar has an excellent chance in such circumstances to beat O-chul.

But that's only in an open area or a stalking environment. In a boxing-style match, Belkar and his daggers against O-chul and his sword in a gladiator ring, O-chul will win.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Anteros]

Belkar knocked Miko out because the Giant found it humorous. It had little to do with statistics or actual fighting ability. Also, Miko was ******* insane.

Unless the Giant had Belkar win for plot/joke purposes, he'd get minced.

[dancrilis]

My moneys on Belkar.

6 standard attacks and a trip in what seems to be a round. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0616.html) Crystal did not respond after her first attack.

Also Belkar is a PC, O-Chul is an NPC on the goodies side, it is pretty much impossible for O-Chul to be as powerful as any of the order.

[Mesiolan]

Belkar is a tough SOB, and is the "Sexy shoeless god of war". A whirlwind of daggers, and a battle jumper with more kills on his scroll, than Lord Voldemort.

But O-Chul has more HP than Belkar can slice away in a couple of rounds. And can dish enough out to pwn the halfling. Like it or not, O-Chul is the toughest gun the Sapphire guard has to offer now. More than Belkar can handle.

And that Belkar is doomed to die within seven weeks isn't helping him in this discussion, either.

[Tyrrell]

Despite how much I like Belkar, O-Chul would win. Even if he was a few levels higher, he could never wittle down O-Chul's appearently endless HP pool. One, he's Small sized, which means smaller weapons and a Str negative. Two, his AC never seemed to be high, and against a full BAB O-Chul, he'll get hit, and have a hard time hitting O-Chul back too - heavy armour. Three, he's just not patient enough to lay a cunning enough trap, and O-Chul's Wis score will help him out with Sense Motive and Spot checks anyway. My money's on O-Chul.

While Belkar gets -2 strength for being a halfling he gets +4 strength while raging. O'Chuul's best stat is Con Belkars is probably strength (perhaps dex).

Furthermore every hit that Belkar gets on the the human gets Belkar's favored enemy bonus which is apparently +6.

O'Chuul lost all of his magical gear in Azure city, what kind of an AC can he get? He doesn't seem to have an exceptional dex. We're looking at 8 from armor 2 from dex and possibly 3 or 4 from whatever magic help he can get, raging Belkar can most likley hit that on anything but a 1 on his first pair of attacks and can hit it more often than not with his third attack.

Meanwhile Belkar does have a very good dex and an AC derived from PC wealth rather than short term replacement for NPC wealth. Belkar has a better AC.

There's also the issue of movement rate. Humans are in general faster than halflings, but you've put O'Cuul in heavy armor while Belkar has a level of Barbarian. Belkar is fasgter than O'Chuul (and has a ring of jumping and a maxed out jump score). Belkar can run away if things get to tough for him O'Chuul can't.

O'Chuul does have a load of hit points and a pile of fighter feats. But if the fight were governed by 3.5 rules rather than the needs of narrative and funny O'Chuul wouldn't stand a chance.

[King of Nowhere]

I disagree with those posters who think O-chul wouldn't sucker the way Miko did. He'll be harder to trick, because he's not insane, but remember that Belkar got to Miko by appealing to her honor. O-chul also has honor and is probably a samurai (social rank only, not the class) as well. That means there are certain expectations he must meet, certain things he cannot do. Fight him within that box, and you'll be beaten. But Belkar is willing to go outside the box, using those limitations to full advantage.

The reason we punish cheaters in real sports and in academics is because cheaters *do* win when fighting people who play fair. If no one ever got an unfair advantage by cheating, no one would ever cheat, right? That's why we disqualify people who won't play by the rules. Of course you can win if you fight dirty ... but who wants to play with a cheater?

But there are far fewer restrictions when in war or in fighting for your life.

That's why -- IMO -- the first blow Belkar will hit O-chul in the honor, forcing O-chul to fight 'honorably' while Belkar fights dirty. Belkar has an excellent chance in such circumstances to beat O-chul.

But that's only in an open area or a stalking environment. In a boxing-style match, Belkar and his daggers against O-chul and his sword in a gladiator ring, O-chul will win.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

That is a valid point, but I fail to see how Belkar could fight dirty with O-Chul, unless he got the chance to attack first after drinking potions, possibly when O-Chul is without equipment. But if they're both armed and alerted, I don't see much room for tricks.
Also, when in a sport competition someone cheat, other people may ask him punished. Other (particularly skilled) people may just keep playing straight confiding in their superior skill, and win despite the other cheats. This carry a good degree of humiliation for the cheater: "look, you had the advantage, you were favored, you tricked the rules, yet I'm still better than you, loser". Belkar vs O-Chul may be this case.

[Tyrrell]

But that's only in an open area or a stalking environment. In a boxing-style match, Belkar and his daggers against O-chul and his sword in a gladiator ring, O-chul will win.

Respectfully,

Brian P.
O'Cuul
Katana d10 (average 5.5)
str +4
1/2 str (two handed weapon)+ 2
specialization +2
improved specialization +2
total d10 + 10 average 14.5

Belkar
dagger d4 (average 2.5)
strength + 4 (+2 on off hand)
rage 2 (+1 on off hand)
magic dagger+4
favored enemy +6
total d4 +16 average 18.5 (off hand average 15.5)

Belkar gets at least two more attacks per round, has a higher to hit bonus and better AC (see my previous post).

Certainly I've had to make some assumptions in there, and the issue is one of story rather than rules, yet from the rules perspective you can't count Belkar out of the fight, in fact just the opposite.

[SadisticFishing]

Now what about Voldemort versus Gandalf?

I'm not sure who to bet on. I'd assume both level ~14, Fighter/Paladin VS Barbarian/Ranger.. the Paladin wins if properly min/maxed. Probably.

[Elder Wraith]

Ten Astral Diamonds on O-Chul (Alternativley known as The Real God Of War - Stuff It, Kratos You Sissy)

[Flickerdart]

O-Chul's Smite Evil puts his damage up as well, and he has much more HP than Belkar. Also, you gave Belkar +4 daggers there (two of 'em!) and O-Chul a single non-magical katana. Belkar's Small daggers are also 1d3, not 1d4.
It's also far less likely for Belkar to have 18 STR (with his racial penalty). And then O-Chul likely has Power Attack as well, which Belkar can't use RAW. O-Chul can PA for the -2 Belkar has to hit from TWF for +4 damage, and can do more if he so chose.

Plus, I'm not so sure FE: Humanoid (Human) works on Greater Deities.

[Raenir Salazar]

That is a valid point, but I fail to see how Belkar could fight dirty with O-Chul, unless he got the chance to attack first after drinking potions, possibly when O-Chul is without equipment. But if they're both armed and alerted, I don't see much room for tricks.
Also, when in a sport competition someone cheat, other people may ask him punished. Other (particularly skilled) people may just keep playing straight confiding in their superior skill, and win despite the other cheats. This carry a good degree of humiliation for the cheater: "look, you had the advantage, you were favored, you tricked the rules, yet I'm still better than you, loser". Belkar vs O-Chul may be this case.

Hit and run attacks.

[Flickerdart]

Hit and run attacks.
Ok, Belkar runs up to O-Chul to hit him. O-Chul guts Belkar with his bare hands as a readied action.

[pendell]

Hit and run attacks.

Exactly. Get O-chul to chase Belkar. If O-chul wears armor and Belkar doesn't, the encumbrance alone gives Belkar a speed advantage. Then set up ambushes. A game of hide-n-seek except that the hider is permitted to set up traps with fire, logs, his own daggers, and whatever else is handy.

Or pay off a tavern full of adventurers to fight O-chul. It worked on Yikyik. They won't kill him, of course -- O-chul will kill them all -- but A) they'll do it because hired muscle in these stories aren't noted for brains and B) they will knock some hit points off of him.

IMO, the most dangerous weapon either combatant possesses are not their stats, their class levels, or their feats. It is the brains they use , dictating the tactics and terms of the engagement. And on that level, I still think O-chul is too much of a straight arrow to compete with either Haley or Belkar. Put differently, O-chul can out-fight Belkar, but I think Belkar can out-smart O-chul.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Flickerdart]

Put differently, O-chul can out-fight Belkar, but I think Belkar can out-smart O-chul.

O-Chul has Wisdom in piles. Belkar has a penalty. O-Chul's perceptiveness is much better, he'd be able to see and think through Belkar's tactics.

[Raenir Salazar]

Belkar has cunning which is more inline with his INT not his WIS.

But it would be cool to watch if nothing phoned it in.

[Tyrrell]

O-Chul's Smite Evil puts his damage up as well, and he has much more HP than Belkar. Also, you gave Belkar +4 daggers there (two of 'em!) and O-Chul a single non-magical katana. Belkar's Small daggers are also 1d3, not 1d4.
It's also far less likely for Belkar to have 18 STR (with his racial penalty). And then O-Chul likely has Power Attack as well, which Belkar can't use RAW. O-Chul can PA for the -2 Belkar has to hit from TWF for +4 damage, and can do more if he so chose.

O'Chuul I think is mostly fighter so his smite is only three or four points of extra damage and his charisma won't give more than a +1 to hit, I think it's negligible considering the number of attacks per round that are going out.

While Belkar does have a -2 racial bonus to strength Belkar probably put his highest stat into strength while O'Chuul put his highest stat into Con. Belkar subsequently probably put his stat bonuses at 4, 8, and 12 (perhaps even 16) into strength while O'Chuul put his into con. By giving O'Chuul as high of a strength stat as Belkar (even considering the vast difference in available resources to get strength boosting items) I'm probably overestimating O'Chuul and underestimating Belkar. It is far more likely that Belkar's strength score is significantly higher than O'Chuul's.

Spot on with the power attack criticism but If Belkar has level appropriate PC gear and O'Chuul doesn't, power attack ends up lowering average damage because of the higher whiff factor.

[L'intrigant]

Well, Belkar certainly isn't as stupid as people seem to be relying on him to be (outsmarting Miko, losing on purpose to attempt to deal a much more serious blow to her, finding ways around his MoJ while in Azure City), he's not exactly a genius. He just knows how to trick people and fight dirty as hell. O-Chul may very well be smarter and wiser than Belkar.

O-Chul, however, has that pesky "honor" thing holding him back. He probably won't do the things that Belkar would, whether nor not he could think them up. Sure, he'd think his way out of traps, but we saw how well that worked when Belkar lit Miko on fire...

In either case, I'm for Belkar because I'm convinced O-Chul is overrated.

[Random832]

Or pay off a tavern full of adventurers to fight O-chul. It worked on Yikyik. They won't kill him, of course -- O-chul will kill them all -- but A) they'll do it because hired muscle in these stories aren't noted for brains and B) they will knock some hit points off of him.

That was a kobold of unclear alignment - non-evil adventurers are going to be a bit more hesitant about siding against a paladin, and it may backfire on Belkar.

[Bibliomancer]

Well, then it's not really a duel, is it? If it comes to it, O-chul has the entire Sapphire Guard to help him. The OOTS might intervene to the point of saving Belkar's life, but they won't help him actually kill O-chul.

I would say the bet is 100 gold on a 1v1 between O-chul and Belkar. No outside help, unless said outside help is neutral (e.g., they're both in Greysky city, and can hire minions or buy healing equally). But no bet on Belkar vs. O-chul and the Sapphire Guard together.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Agreed. Assuming there is a fight with no outside intervention (excepting Mr. Scruffy), the loser must post "I owe [winner] 100 gp" in his sig for 12 months.

[pendell]

Agreed. Assuming there is a fight with no outside intervention (excepting Mr. Scruffy), the loser must post "I owe [winner] 100 gp" in his sig for 12 months.

And O-chul's paladin mount. If Belkar gets Mr. Scruffy, O-chul gets his paladin mount. Which probably makes it unfair, as O-chul probably has a Celestial Tarrasque as a mount, but I'll allow it anyway.

To the previous poster concerned about non-evil adventurers: So hire evil ones. What's the problem? If Belkar can ensure the fight takes place in some place like the OOTS equivalent of Zhentil Keep, evil adventurers will be a dime a dozen.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[chiasaur11]

I put 100 gold on Belkar.

Something you folks are forgetting is that Belkar has already fought Miko and succeeded in knocking her cold. He could have coup-de-graced her .. but he was more interested in making her fall than in making her die. If it weren't for that, he would have won the fight.

Belkar would win, because he's chaotic. In a straight fight, yes, O-chul would win. But Belkar will go guerrilla the way he did against Miko. If he's playing for keeps and to kill, I say he's got about a 70% chance of killing O-chul. O-chul, like all the other paladins of Azure City, is just so absurdly lawful they get outclassed when they match wits with a really chaotic person. See: Xykon's shell game, Belkar's cat-and-mouse game.

Belkar will win, not because he's a better fighter -- he's not -- but because he's more cunning and more ruthless than O-chul can ever hope to be.

Respectfully,

Brian P .

If a man has you entirely at his mercy, then hope like hell that man is an evil man. Because the evil like power, power over people, and they'll want to see you in fear. They want you to know you're going to die. So they'll talk. They'll gloat... A good man will kill you with hardly a word.
~ Terry Pratchett - Men at Arms

In other words, Belkar will do his best to make the victory fun for himself and humiliating for O-Chul. He'll let the fight go on longer, he'll gloat...

And then Belkar will die horribly.

[DarkEternal]

160 pounds? Sod that. O'chul is a beefed up man that has godlike toughness, is probably composed out of pure muscles with just the right layer of fat to absorb damage even further. Even if he was starved(which I doubt since the lich got his kicks with physical torture which if starved O'chul probably wouldn't be able to do for that long a time) he's at least 200 pounds of pure bearded manliness.

[SadisticFishing]

No. Constitution does not necessarily mean buff - strength leans that way, but.. not necessarily.

He has to weigh at LEAST 150 though.

Think about really good runners - they're not HUGE. Can't argue that they don't have good con though.

[DarkEternal]

Perhaps, but come on, he's wearing Plate mail, he was a fighter, he is tough as nails. I don't really see him as "lean".

[Cracklord]

Hit and run attacks.

Belkar is small. O-Chul moves faster then him. And he has wisdom in piles, so spot and listen comes natural. Sucks to be Belkar there to.

If O-Chul is sufficiently encuberanced by his armour and Belkar has fast moving and light then maybe it could work.

But what is this O-Chul is too honourable. Have we seen him fight fair? No. What we've seen him do is beat the hell out of main villains with scarecly a word. He does what works. No "Attention Evil-Doers," just walks up and kills/maims them.

Belkar would mock O-Chul a few times, but if the torture is anything to go by then O-Chul is immune to humiliation.

Now when you do you maths, take into account that Belkar does not have +5daggers, and O-Chul probably has a decent weapon.

[Callista]

Belkar's a halfling. Slower speed. About the same as a guy in armor.

[The Guardian]

Assuming they're both of similar level (about 14ish) and that their con scores have been fairly represented, O-Chul (10+13*5.5+14*8 = 193hp) is likely to defeat Belkar (assuming 3 levels of Barb rather than just one, 8+10*4.5+3*6.5 +14*4 = 128hp) based on attrition and his insanely high con score (don't recall the source but I do recall the Giant indicating it was somewhere in the mid-high 20s; I roughed it at 26 but removing 14hp isn't going to change things much)

It's probably a fairly safe assumption that O'Chul has taken Toughness at least once? Possibly several times?

I'd be very surprised if he has less than 300hp.

[Kish]

Belkar's a halfling.
...with a barbarian level, which raises his movement speed to 30, same as most medium-sized creatures.

[EmperorSarda]

Now what about Voldemort versus Gandalf?

Gandalf all the way. No contest. He's a freaking demi-god. No way some mortal who siphons off his soul try and be immortal could kill him.

[Callista]

...with a barbarian level, which raises his movement speed to 30, same as most medium-sized creatures.... oh yeah. :redface:

[Demonicbunny]

I'd put my money on the Belkster, Death's little helper, the sexy shoeless God of war.

Why?
Ok, while O-chul isn't lawful stupid he's still a good guy. So while O-chul is thinking good thoughts about improving the world (in ways that generally doesn't involve killing Belkar), honor, duty, living a fulfilling life and such Belkar would be thinking about the best way to kill O-chul (interspersed with the occasional thought about Scruffy, sammiches and killing the Oracle, again). For weeks.

Now Belkar isn't the wisest guy around, but he has shows that he's cunning and inventive. He'd come up with something.

[Cracklord]

I'd put my money on the Belkster, Death's little helper, the sexy shoeless God of war.

Why?
Ok, while O-chul isn't lawful stupid he's still a good guy. So while O-chul is thinking good thoughts about improving the world (in ways that generally doesn't involve killing Belkar), honor, duty, living a fulfilling life and such Belkar would be thinking about the best way to kill O-chul (interspersed with the occasional thought about Scruffy, sammiches and killing the Oracle, again). For weeks.

Now Belkar isn't the wisest guy around, but he has shows that he's cunning and inventive. He'd come up with something.

Sorry, but what? O-Chul is a member of an organization dedicated to eradicating evil from the world. He is a killer, just a good one, not a selfish one. O-Chul is a good person, but that sword he wears isn't for decoration. He has blood on his hands.

[alegollama]

Sorry, but what? O-Chul is a member of an organization dedicated to eradicating evil from the world. He is a killer, just a good one, not a selfish one. O-Chul is a good person, but that sword he wears isn't for decoration. He has blood on his hands.
Just because someone is fully prepared to kill someone, does not mean that they will take that as the first course of action. O'chul might try to, rather than kill, incapacitate, Belkar, while the first thing Belkar'll do is go for the kill.

[chiasaur11]

Just because someone is fully prepared to kill someone, does not mean that they will take that as the first course of action. O'chul might try to, rather than kill, incapacitate, Belkar, while the first thing Belkar'll do is go for the kill.

It's Belkar Bitterleaf. O-Chul knows from experience what happens if you just toss Belkar in the clink. Which means he's going to go for the kill.

[Flickerdart]

Just because someone is fully prepared to kill someone, does not mean that they will take that as the first course of action. O'chul might try to, rather than kill, incapacitate, Belkar, while the first thing Belkar'll do is go for the kill.
O-Chul explicitly threatened to gut Belkar with his bare hands. Unless you can figure out a way to non-fatally gut someone (surgical precision!) it shows O-Chul means business.

[doodthedud]

O-Chul explicitly threatened to gut Belkar with his bare hands. Unless you can figure out a way to non-fatally gut someone (surgical precision!) it shows O-Chul means business.

thank you, source of wisdom in this thread

[quick_comment]

My money is on O-Chul. Higher level, tons more HP, more damage (dont forget his smite evil).

Traps? O-Chul just spent the last few months beating traps created by a bored lich. Belkar has nothing on Xykon. Not to mention that O-Chul has a high wisdom score which will let him out think and out wait Belkar. Belkar just fled into a warehouse? O-Chul is going to call for reinforcements to surround it. Or detect evil through the walls to find Belkar. He wont pull a Miko, charging in blindly.

[chiasaur11]

O-Chul explicitly threatened to gut Belkar with his bare hands. Unless you can figure out a way to non-fatally gut someone (surgical precision!) it shows O-Chul means business.

Well, given we are talking O-Chul, I figger he could give a non lethal gutting.

It would, however, be incredibly painful and permanently disabling.

[Toric]

Now let's assess O'Chul's activities in recent times...

Survived what amounts to an apocalypse of his character class.

Regularly tackled ridiculously fatal situations and emerged triumphant each time.

Just as regularly played rousing games of Go with something that can kill most creatures with a tap of its pinky-finger analogue.

Wrestled a shark in an acid bath.

Wrestled a shark in an acid bath!

Attacked an Epic-level lich with his bare hands.

All while shirtlessly sporting a stylishly rugged beard. Clearly O'Chul is the Oots-verse's version of Chuck Norris. I know who my money's on.

[Puppeteer]

I think most are failing to see what a chaotic evil character could do if put into a dire situation.
Being lawful good doesn't mean you are going to shout "En garde!" to your enemy, duelling in a honorable fight, but you sure will have a problem if said little bastard were to cowardly use human shields to protect himself, women or even kids.

Being evil is more than just shouting how mean you can be, it's about the actions that you take, how low you can step to in order to obtain what you want, and by all means a chaotic evil character has WAY more options than a lawful good one.

[Tyrrell]

It's probably a fairly safe assumption that O'Chul has taken Toughness at least once? Possibly several times?

I'd be very surprised if he has less than 300hp.

Here's how I guess at it from a rules perspective (which of course means very little to the comic)

every level O'Chuul's got
a ten sided hit die (10 hp at first level and average 8.5 per level after that -I'm assuming that he rolls crazy well)
a con bonus for (wild guess) 28 con of +9 and
improved toughness that gives 1 hp per level (toughness as a feat is such a stupidly inefficient choice in most circumstances that I can't imagine O'Chuul taking it)

so he has roughly 18.5 hp/level + 1.5 more hp at level 1.

Assuming level 16 he has 297 or so hp (there were some 3.0 feats that gave larger chunks of HP like giant's toughness, he could have those).

[Cracklord]

I think most are failing to see what a chaotic evil character could do if put into a dire situation.
Being lawful good doesn't mean you are going to shout "En garde!" to your enemy, duelling in a honorable fight, but you sure will have a problem if said little bastard were to cowardly use human shields to protect himself, women or even kids.

Being evil is more than just shouting how mean you can be, it's about the actions that you take, how low you can step to in order to obtain what you want, and by all means a chaotic evil character has WAY more options than a lawful good one.

So what your saying is that morality and any sense of chivalry will lose you a fight?
I think Nale is the best example you'll find of why this is not true. He'll gladly bring innocents in, stoop to any level, but ultimately he will fail, because he is the badguy, and because ultimately the fact he will do this weakens his position.
Bond Villains will do truly despicable things, but they have a pathological problem when it comes to finishing the job, and will sit around talking about it instead.
Is that enough examples? Because I can do more.
Evilness does not equal effectiveness.
(And yes, I know their all fictional examples. But that's what we're talking about.)

[Puppeteer]

So what your saying is that morality and any sense of chivalry will lose you a fight?
I think Nale is the best example you'll find of why this is not true. He'll gladly bring innocents in, stoop to any level, but ultimately he will fail, because he is the badguy, and because ultimately the fact he will do this weakens his position.
Bond Villains will do truly despicable things, but they have a pathological problem when it comes to finishing the job, and will sit around talking about it instead.
Is that enough examples? Because I can do more.
Evilness does not equal effectiveness.
(And yes, I know their all fictional examples. But that's what we're talking about.)

I can make examples too, and tell you how Eddard Stark got a serious headache and sore throat for trying to meddle in the Lannister's business.

[The Guardian]

improved toughness that gives 1 hp per level (toughness as a feat is such a stupidly inefficient choice in most circumstances that I can't imagine O'Chuul taking it)


Wow for some reason I thought Toughness was 3 hp / level... +3 hp for a feat seems like the biggest waste. ever. Where is improved toughness, I don't see it in the SRD?

[Tyrrell]

Wow for some reason I thought Toughness was 3 hp / level... +3 hp for a feat seems like the biggest waste. ever. Where is improved toughness, I don't see it in the SRD?

complete warrior

[Larkspur]

O-Chul has nigh infinite HP, and he's spent the past few months leveling up like a madman. Belkar would be about as effective against him as he was against the MiTD.

Which is why Belkar is not going to let O-Chul catch him doing anything execution-worthy. The Belkster isn't stupid, and he has a duty to the Greater Him (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0435.html). He can restrain himself when he has to.

Besides, the challenge is getting away with crimes under the paladins' noses, not getting into pointless duels with them. Miko was an exception because he hated her especially, but he doesn't have a grudge against O-Chul.

[SoC175]

I think Belkar would win most 1:1 vs. O'Chul.

He's higher level, both are high-hp, full-BAB classes and 2 smite evils just don't cut it against double number of attacks with favored enemy bonus on each of them

[Tyrrell]

O-Chul has nigh infinite HP, and he's spent the past few months leveling up like a madman.
to get xp from an encounter you generally need to defeat that encounter. Alive with negative HP is not what I'd call defeating an encounter.

[Lord Loss]

My Bet's On Belkar! Go Belkar!

[d13]

to get xp from an encounter you generally need to defeat that encounter. Alive with negative HP is not what I'd call defeating an encounter.

Being between level 10 and 15, and surviving ALONE, against 2 low-mid level hobgoblins, an acid immune shark, being TIED and SUBMERGED in a freaking POOL OF ACID (with said shark), an epic level sorcerer, a high level goblin cleric and some others... Without dying...

Seriously, I would call that defeating an encounter. Heck! I would call the fact of surviving ANY event designed to KILL you, no save, 'defeating an encounter' :smalleek:

[Demonicbunny]

Sorry, but what? O-Chul is a member of an organization dedicated to eradicating evil from the world. He is a killer, just a good one, not a selfish one. O-Chul is a good person, but that sword he wears isn't for decoration. He has blood on his hands.

That's not what I meant.
Belkar would be thinking all the time about how to kill O-Chul specifically.
O-Chul might be thinking about how to Smite Evil in general, but contemplating for weeks how to kill Belkar specifically? Not a chance. Belkar doesn't rank sufficiently high on the "threats against the world" for that. Xykon or Redcloak might, but not Belkar.

[Asta Kask]

In a straight fight, O'Chul wins. In a Belkar fight... it's more unclear. O'Chul is tougher than nails but Belkar has prior experience in fighting paladins. But, yeah, I'll echo the statement "My money is on the guy who's not scheduled to die in seven weeks."

Gandalf vs. Voldemort? That depends - remember that Gandalf limited himself while in Middle Earth. Unlimited Gandalf wins easily. Limited Gandalf - tricksier.

What do you think of Voldemort vs. Xykon?

[DnDgeek13]

a bit unclear. but truthfully i would say voldemort. i want to say Xykon but voldemort has no limit on his spells per day. though energy drain would be killer.

on O-Chul vs. Belkar, i have to go with the shoeless god of war. which one it is in this case i'm not sure.

[Asta Kask]

OTOH, Voldemort's main attack spells seems to be Adava Kedavra (Finger of Death) and Crucio (Cause Pain?) - none of which would be effective against Xykon.

[Callista]

They're both epic spellcasters, but D&D magic is more powerful than what Voldemort has access to. I'd give it to Xykon, easy.

[Frobnobin]

O'Chul would Definitely win because he is a beast

[Watcher]

Belkar. There's almost no way O-Chul would beat him in a 1-1 contest, and this fabled "O'Chul" is even worse than O-Chul. Belkar, definitely. Stabbing an eye isn't enough to make one stronger than the main characters.

EDIT: This was before I realized this was an old thread that got bumped. Sorry guys...:smallredface:

[El Llamita]

Hey, look. Over there! They are taking pictures of necromancers!!



Smile :smallbiggrin:

[Watcher]

Hey, look. Over there! They are taking pictures of necromancers!!



Smile :smallbiggrin:

?!?!? *doesn't get what this has to do with anything*

EDIT: Now that I get it, it's funny. (Sorry that I'm slow sometimes)

[Raging Gene Ray]

?!?!? *doesn't get what this has to do with anything*

He's talking about THREAD necromancy. The last post was almost 8 months ago before it got bumped.

[Watcher]

Ohh, I see! I totally missed that. I guess I just don't go on these boards that often anymore. :smallredface:

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff: Well, the only solution to that is to visit the boards more often. But when you do avoid thread necromancy.