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View Full Version : Racial HD counting towards ECL. What?!



Jergmo
2009-06-29, 12:23 PM
Okay, am I the only one that sees something horribly wrong with this? These creatures already have a level adjustment, and on top of that, their racial hit dice counts towards their ECL. For example, a level 1 ogre barbarian would be CR 4, buts it would effectively be a level 7 character.

They have four giant hit dice, which is equal to +1 CR according to improving monsters. So to be fair, shouldn't their ECL actually be 4? That would fit with their challenge rating, and the ogre is no longer crippled.

Agree/disagree/RABBLE RABBLE?

AstralFire
2009-06-29, 12:24 PM
Often times their LA and Racial HD are both less than they'd actually be if you were ONLY using Racial HD or ONLY using Level Adjustment to bump up their ECL.

Krrth
2009-06-29, 12:26 PM
Okay, am I the only one that sees something horribly wrong with this? These creatures already have a level adjustment, and on top of that, their racial hit dice counts towards their ECL. For example, a level 1 ogre barbarian would be CR 4, buts it would effectively be a level 7 character.

They have four giant hit dice, which is equal to +1 CR according to improving monsters. So to be fair, shouldn't their ECL actually be 4? That would fit with their challenge rating, and the ogre is no longer crippled.

Agree/disagree/RABBLE RABBLE?

Um...if I recall correctly, those Racial HD also give saves, skill points, and feats. That's why they are added.

Jergmo
2009-06-29, 12:26 PM
Often times their LA and Racial HD are both less than they'd actually be if you were ONLY using Racial HD or ONLY using Level Adjustment to bump up their ECL.

Er...I'm sorry, what?


Um...if I recall correctly, those Racial HD also give saves, skill points, and feats. That's why they are added.

But racial hit dice are weaker than class levels. They end up getting behind both in class levels and power.

Level 7 character > Level 1 ogre by a long shot.

Hat-Trick
2009-06-29, 12:28 PM
I think that Racial Hit Dice should be considered like half of a class level, but that's probably not very balanced, either.

AstralFire
2009-06-29, 12:30 PM
If you took away the racial HD and just used the LA, you may find they're more powerful than someone of that normal LA.

Jergmo
2009-06-29, 12:31 PM
I think that Racial Hit Dice should be considered like half of a class level, but that's probably not very balanced, either.

Well, that might work. As pointed out, the racial HD give skills/feats/etc. They still end up a level behind, but that might help make up for that.

quick_comment
2009-06-29, 12:34 PM
Racial HD are usually pretty good. Outsider and dragon HD have good BAB, all good saves, 8+int skill points and usually come with some very nice special abilities.

Jergmo
2009-06-29, 12:35 PM
Racial HD are usually pretty good. Outsider and dragon HD have good BAB, all good saves, 8+int skill points and usually come with some very nice special abilities.

Well, the improving HD for monsters thing already lists them as being more powerful than the others. A humanoid or giant has +1 CR for every four levels, while an outsider or dragon has +1 for every two.

Devils_Advocate
2009-06-29, 12:38 PM
I posted on this just recently, as it happens.


An ogre built as a character has

- rolled, point-bought, or elite array stats modified by the ogre's racial modifiers, instead or an array of 11 11 11 10 10 10 modified by the ogre's ability modifiers,
- wealth appropriate to a character of its ECL, instead of the crap gear that an ogre gets, and
- feats and skills that can be chosen to play to its strengths, instead of the crap feats a MM ogre gets.

Now, that said, a whole bunch of monsters have inappropriate LAs and/or inappropriate CRs.

As I mentioned in another thread recently, the official formulas for CR and ECL work better as rough guidelines than hard-and-fast rules. It would have been nice if they had come out and admitted that and essentially added "Adjust as needed", like they did for magic item pricing.

Krrth
2009-06-29, 12:39 PM
Er...I'm sorry, what?



But racial hit dice are weaker than class levels. They end up getting behind both in class levels and power.

Level 7 character > Level 1 ogre by a long shot.

Not as much as you might think. Remember, the extra stats and BaB are also included.

Add in the large size for ogres (and the reach that gives them)....not to mention the subtype also gives them an edge. Charm person doesn't work.

That 26 strength doesn't help matters either.

Jergmo
2009-06-29, 12:41 PM
Alright, well, what about creatures with racial hit dice that want to play spellcasters instead of a fighter or something? They end up being crap due to being a number of caster levels behind, and yes, they could take Practiced Spellcaster to bump it up, but that won't give them higher spells.

Krrth
2009-06-29, 12:43 PM
Alright, well, what about creatures with racial hit dice that want to play spellcasters instead of a fighter or something? They end up being crap.
Depends on what they play. There are several races that specifically state that the racial levels stack with similar class levels. Like the Rakshasa (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/rakshasa.htm). level adjustment seven, and counts as a seventh level sorcerer as well.

Starbuck_II
2009-06-29, 12:47 PM
Not as much as you might think. Remember, the extra stats and BaB are also included.

Add in the large size for ogres (and the reach that gives them)....not to mention the subtype also gives them an edge. Charm person doesn't work.

That 26 strength doesn't help matters either.

You mean type..right?

Jergmo
2009-06-29, 12:48 PM
Depends on what they play. There are several races that specifically state that the racial levels stack with similar class levels. Like the Rakshasa (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/rakshasa.htm). level adjustment seven, and counts as a seventh level sorcerer as well.

Yes, but I'm not talking about Rakshasa's. What if an ogre wanted to be a druid, or something? Level 7 druids vs. level 1 druid? Yeah...

Artanis
2009-06-29, 12:51 PM
Yes, but I'm not talking about Rakshasa's. What if an ogre wanted to be a druid, or something? Level 7 druids vs. level 1 druid? Yeah...

They're pretty much screwed, which has been known and in large part lamented for as long as I can remember.

Jergmo
2009-06-29, 12:52 PM
They're pretty much screwed, which has been known and in large part lamented for as long as I can remember.

And I want to fix that. It's ridiculous.

quick_comment
2009-06-29, 12:53 PM
Alright, well, what about creatures with racial hit dice that want to play spellcasters instead of a fighter or something? They end up being crap due to being a number of caster levels behind, and yes, they could take Practiced Spellcaster to bump it up, but that won't give them higher spells.

Casters with LA and no racial HD are still way weaker than casters with no LA and no racial HD(or bought off LA).

If you allow racial HD to count for half a level, then you get things being a rakshasa at level 11. Sure, its 4 levels behind a sorcerer of the same level, but it also has DR 15/good AND piercing, SR 27, +9 natural armor bonus, +6 con, +6 cha, +other stats and two natural attacks.

At level 20, this character would have 16th level casting, SR 36 and everything listed above.


You also massively overpower lycanthropes

Krrth
2009-06-29, 12:55 PM
You mean type..right? Correct. That's what I get for typing fast...




Yes, but I'm not talking about Rakshasa's. What if an ogre wanted to be a druid, or something? Level 7 druids vs. level 1 druid? Yeah...

...they'd be a pretty crappy caster. That int of 8, wis of 10, and chr of 7 pretty much rules out any of the caster types.


Seriously, casters don't need any more advantages. That's a major reason most monster races don't increase caster levels. The benefits don't make up for the lost caster levels (usually), but adding all the benefits on top of being a full caster?

Jergmo
2009-06-29, 12:55 PM
Casters with LA and no racial HD are still way weaker than casters with no LA and no racial HD(or bought off LA).

If you allow racial HD to count for half a level, then you get things being a rakshasa at level 11. Sure, its 4 levels behind a sorcerer of the same level, but it also has DR 15/good AND piercing, SR 27, +9 natural armor bonus, +6 con, +6 cha, +other stats and two natural attacks.

At level 20, this character would have 16th level casting, SR 36 and everything listed above.


You also massively overpower lycanthropes

Again, we're not talking about Rakshasas. They already have caster levels from hit dice. And I'm not talking about racial hit dice towards caster levels, I'm talking about reducing the ECL given by their racial hit dice.

Jergmo
2009-06-29, 12:58 PM
Correct. That's what I get for typing fast...





...they'd be a pretty crappy caster. That int of 8, wis of 10, and chr of 7 pretty much rules out any of the caster types.


Seriously, casters don't need any more advantages. That's a major reason most monster races don't increase caster levels. The benefits don't make up for the lost caster levels (usually), but adding all the benefits on top of being a full caster?

Also, that ogre druid wouldn't have 8 int and 10 wis. It'd have whatever it got from rolling or elite array. So, if it had the elite array and put the 15 on wisdom, then it wouldn't have a problem. These creatures not having spellcasters of any kind defies any form of logic. Every intelligent creature has religion.

Kylarra
2009-06-29, 01:01 PM
Yes, but I'm not talking about Rakshasa's. What if an ogre wanted to be a druid, or something? Level 7 druids vs. level 1 druid? Yeah...So you want to take something with decent physical stats, and trying to make them analogous to full casters... why again?

If you're making this decision as a PC you're deliberately choosing suboptimal choices and even then you can go ahead and buy off your LA eventually (under most circumstances), rendering you effectively some sort of fighter/caster multiclass, which should obviously leave you weaker [in terms of spellcasting] than a full caster.

If we're talking about NPCs then read the rules for non-associated class levels (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm).

Jergmo
2009-06-29, 01:03 PM
So you want to take something with decent physical stats, and trying to make them analogous to full casters... why again?

If you're making this decision as a PC you're deliberately choosing suboptimal choices and even then you can go ahead and buy off your LA eventually (under most circumstances), rendering you effectively some sort of fighter/caster multiclass, which should obviously leave you weaker [in terms of spellcasting] than a full caster.

If we're talking about NPCs then read the rules for non-associated class levels (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm).

I'm talking about physically powerful creatures having the choice of at least divine spellcasters without being worthless. Because that makes sense.

Krrth
2009-06-29, 01:05 PM
Also, that ogre druid wouldn't have 8 int and 10 wis. It'd have whatever it got from rolling or elite array. So, if it had the elite array and put the 15 on wisdom, then it wouldn't have a problem.

Ogres as characters:
+10 Str
-2 Dex
+4 Con
-4 Int
-4 Chr

That's the modifiers for stats. While wis does not get a modifier, that strength more than makes up for it.
Seriously, that's an 18 strength without putting a single point into that stat. Points that can go into the other stats....
With a +5 AC bonus, +3 bab, two feats of your choice, +10 speed, 10 ft reach, proficiency with simple and martial weapons, light and medium armor, and shields?

nysisobli
2009-06-29, 01:06 PM
when i select monsters, i look at them and then i eyeball what i think they should be. 3.x has some of the worst monster balancing issues i have ever encountered. So you should just ask you self can my party defeat this?

Kylarra
2009-06-29, 01:08 PM
I'm talking about physically powerful creatures having the choice of at least divine spellcasters without being worthless. Because that makes sense.They do? :smallconfused: Why not play up your strengths and go with a more combat oriented caster, rather than trying to play as a fullcaster? I mean, you don't take 4 levels in fighter (or barbarian or <insert combat class here>) and then complain that taking the next 16 levels in cleric (or insert caster of choice here) is going to leave you weaker [at spellcasting] than a full caster. That's just silly...

Jergmo
2009-06-29, 01:08 PM
Ogres as characters:
+10 Str
-2 Dex
+4 Con
-4 Int
-4 Chr

That's the modifiers for stats. While wis does not get a modifier, that strength more than makes up for it.
Seriously, that's an 18 strength without putting a single point into that stat. Points that can go into the other stats....
With a +5 AC bonus, +3 bab, two feats of your choice, +10 speed, 10 ft reach, proficiency with simple and martial weapons, light and medium armor, and shields?

You...don't seem to get what I'm getting at. Not all ogres should be fighters or barbarians. What sense does that make? Where are their spiritual leaders/etc?


They do? :smallconfused: Why not play up your strengths and go with a more combat oriented caster, rather than trying to play as a fullcaster? I mean, you don't take 4 levels in fighter (or barbarian or <insert combat class here>) and then complain that taking the next 16 levels in cleric (or insert caster of choice here) is going to leave you weaker [at spellcasting] than a full caster. That's just silly...

...Read above. :smallannoyed:

Kylarra
2009-06-29, 01:13 PM
You...don't seem to get what I'm getting at. Not all ogres should be fighters or barbarians. What sense does that make? Where are their spiritual leaders/etc?



...Read above. :smallannoyed:Er, are we talking NPCs? because if you'd read the source I cited you'd see that adding <= 4 levels of a caster to an ogre will only increase its cr by 2, and thereafter increase on a 1:1 basis.

Now, granted, that will still leave them overall behind any race that is either cr <1 or has casting related to its racial type, but them's the breaks in a warrior race.

Telonius
2009-06-29, 01:14 PM
Well, there are the Ogre Mages. As far as spiritual leaders, they take levels in Cleric or Druid.

Note to self: new caster fix. Require all casters to play as Ogres.

Kylarra
2009-06-29, 01:15 PM
Note to self: new caster fix. Require all casters to play as Ogres.I lol'd. :smallbiggrin:

Jergmo
2009-06-29, 01:15 PM
So you want to take something with decent physical stats, and trying to make them analogous to full casters... why again?

If you're making this decision as a PC you're deliberately choosing suboptimal choices and even then you can go ahead and buy off your LA eventually (under most circumstances), rendering you effectively some sort of fighter/caster multiclass, which should obviously leave you weaker [in terms of spellcasting] than a full caster.

If we're talking about NPCs then read the rules for non-associated class levels (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm).

Okay, but do they not still progress at the same rate ECL-wise?

Krrth
2009-06-29, 01:16 PM
They do have spiritual leaders, just not very many of them. They're called adepts.

Look at it logically. Why would they have ever developed anything other than the (rare) adept? The racial strategy of ogres is to pound things into the dirt with clubs. The average ogre isn't capable of being a caster, so why bother?

PC races bother because it lets them compete with other, nastier creatures.

wadledo
2009-06-29, 01:17 PM
Okay, but do they not still progress at the same rate ECL-wise?

Look at it this way:

1. You want to play an ogre fullcaster?
2. Play gestalt.

Jergmo
2009-06-29, 01:17 PM
They do have spiritual leaders, just not very many of them. They're called adepts.

Look at it logically. Why would they have ever developed anything other than the (rare) adept? The racial strategy of ogres is to pound things into the dirt with clubs. The average ogre isn't capable of being a caster, so why bother?

PC races bother because it lets them compete with other, nastier creatures.

So, what, monsters aren't going to compete with PC races that are killing them for lewtz?

Kylarra
2009-06-29, 01:20 PM
Okay, but do they not still progress at the same rate ECL-wise?I'm not seeing the point you're trying to make here?

DragoonWraith
2009-06-29, 01:20 PM
Is there any "Savage Progression" type thing for Racial HD? That seems like the obvious choice here. It'll certainly help with LA issues.

Basically, the idea is that you can take "levels" in your race, up to the LA, to get all of those bonuses. Without taking those levels, you still are that race, but you have more LA +0 like abilities. This allows people to play members of that race from level 1, or as classes that are massively hurt by the LA and get little from it (like most spellcasters).

But I'm not sure any of them apply to Racial HD. You could make up something that does, though.

Jergmo
2009-06-29, 01:22 PM
I'm not seeing the point you're trying to make here?

I'm trying to make NPC and PC progression equal, so that there's actually some kind of logic to it. How did the NPC's get these levels if a PC doing the same thing can't as well as they can?

Krrth
2009-06-29, 01:24 PM
So, what, monsters aren't going to compete with PC races that are killing them for lewtz?


Ultimately.....no. They can try. However, the most successful to try and do that are either (in no particular order of success):
1)Sneaky. (Kobolds, Drow)
2)Magical (Dragons, Mind Flayers)
3)Extremely prolific (Kobolds, Goblins)
4)In an environment PC races don't want.
5)Some combination of the above.

In the specific case of Ogres, they aren't smart enough to realize what is going on. In everyday life strength gets them what they want. When they come up against Humans (or whatever), they are going to try strength first.
And get smacked down because of it.

Jergmo
2009-06-29, 01:25 PM
Ultimately.....no. They can try. However, the most successful to try and do that are either (in no particular order of success):
1)Sneaky. (Kobolds, Drow)
2)Magical (Dragons, Mind Flayers)
3)Extremely prolific (Kobolds, Goblins)
4)In an environment PC races don't want.
5)Some combination of the above.

In the specific case of Ogres, they aren't smart enough to realize what is going on. In everyday life strength gets them what they want. When they come up against Humans (or whatever), they are going to try strength first.
And get smacked down because of it.

They might not be intelligent, but they don't have a penalty to wisdom. Intelligence is having an understanding of what you can do, and wisdom is knowing the best way to use what you can do. Also, chances are if they're in an environment that PC races don't want, they are in an environment where they're struggling to survive.

Anyway...party of monster adventurers setting out to kill human expansionists and adventurers for their tasty EXP and treasure. Wait, that makes them evil. :smalltongue:

Random832
2009-06-29, 01:26 PM
Ultimately.....no. They can try.

In the specific case of Ogres, they aren't smart enough to realize what is going on.

So what they need to do is raise up their own god who will work with a cleric to blackmail the gods by threatening to unleash the Snarl to.... wait as minute :smallbiggrin:

Krrth
2009-06-29, 01:29 PM
They might not be intelligent, but they don't have a penalty to wisdom. Intelligence is having an understanding of what you can do, and wisdom is knowing the best way to use what you can do. Also, chances are if they're in an environment that PC races don't want, they are in an environment where they're struggling to survive.

Yes. And what they have is a lot of strength, toughness, and hitting power. Thus, that's what they use. What's wiser:training your one in a hundred (if you're lucky) to be middling powerful, or training every member of your tribe to beat things up like they do on a regular basis?

That's also why ogres find other monsters and work with them.


So what they need to do is raise up their own god who will work with a cleric to blackmail the gods by threatening to unleash the Snarl to.... wait as minute :smallbiggrin:
Correct. Gee, that sounds familiar....:smallwink:

Kylarra
2009-06-29, 01:33 PM
I'm trying to make NPC and PC progression equal, so that there's actually some kind of logic to it. How did the NPC's get these levels if a PC doing the same thing can't as well as they can?PCs have a distinct number of advantages over NPCs, and more specifically, not plot important NPCs in that they [generally] have: better gear (NPC gear is WBL-1), better optimized stats (most npcs use the elite array at best), better optimized builds (most npcs aren't esoteric combinations of classes set to min/max towards a goal and generally have more mediocre feat choices).

Ultimately, the NPC is under the DM's direct control and thus can be played as well or as poorly as you choose, whereas the PC is most likely headed for the most optimal route to take advantage of their strength, ie if you have an ogre player, they're gonna be a taking big advantage of that +10 str and large size.

Jergmo
2009-06-29, 01:36 PM
PCs have a distinct number of advantages over NPCs, and more specifically, not plot important NPCs in that they [generally] have: better gear (NPC gear is WBL-1), better optimized stats (most npcs use the elite array at best), better optimized builds (most npcs aren't esoteric combinations of classes set to min/max towards a goal and generally have more mediocre feat choices).

Ultimately, the NPC is under the DM's direct control and thus can be played as well or as poorly as you choose, whereas the PC is most likely headed for the most optimal route to take advantage of their strength, ie if you have an ogre player, they're gonna be a taking big advantage of that +10 str and large size.

Alright, well, what about races with racial hit dice that would make good spellcasters? Sahuagin, perhaps? Or...a cloud giant.

Cloud Giant Characters

Most cloud giant groups include a sorcerer or a cleric.

Good-aligned clerics have access to two of the following domains: Good, Healing, Strength, or Sun. Evil-aligned clerics have access to two of the following domains: Death, Evil, or Trickery.

Krrth
2009-06-29, 01:50 PM
Alright, well, what about races with racial hit dice that would make good spellcasters? Sahuagin, perhaps? Or...a cloud giant.

Cloud Giant Characters

Most cloud giant groups include a sorcerer or a cleric.

Good-aligned clerics have access to two of the following domains: Good, Healing, Strength, or Sun. Evil-aligned clerics have access to two of the following domains: Death, Evil, or Trickery.

Yep. They also have 17 hit dice, +22 to hit, 50ft movement, 35 strength, 6 beginning feats, live in an area that others don't, and are unplayable as a PC race.

As for sahuagin: They have an ECL of +4. And Blindsense, multiattack, a swim speed, water breathing as a permanent effect, natural weapons, and a +3+4+4 on saves. For 4 levels, that sounds like a trade off.

Also, keep in mind Spiritual leader =/= Caster.

Kylarra
2009-06-29, 01:54 PM
Alright, well, what about races with racial hit dice that would make good spellcasters? Sahuagin, perhaps? Or...a cloud giant.

Cloud Giant Characters

Most cloud giant groups include a sorcerer or a cleric.

Good-aligned clerics have access to two of the following domains: Good, Healing, Strength, or Sun. Evil-aligned clerics have access to two of the following domains: Death, Evil, or Trickery.Er... you're getting a crap ton of other abilities (probably someone will list them out as I type this) in exchange for your RHD and LA modifiers so... yeah you've got a number of other bonuses in addition to whatever casting.

Like I said, if NPC, they'll be some sort of gishy build that uses magic to enhance their natural inclinations, not try to play as something they're not suited for.

If PC.. .well neither is suitable for a normal game so you'd probably need to ad hoc stuff or use Savage Species as a reference for how to reduce LA bonuses if you absolutely must be a rare caster from an obscure species.

Jergmo
2009-06-29, 01:54 PM
Yep. They also have 17 hit dice, +22 to hit, 50ft movement, 35 strength, 6 beginning feats, live in an area that others don't, and are unplayable as a PC race.

As for sahuagin: They have an ECL of +4. And Blindsense, multiattack, a swim speed, water breathing as a permanent effect, natural weapons, and a +3+4+4 on saves. For 4 levels, that sounds like a trade off.

Also, keep in mind Spiritual leader =/= Caster.

In D&D, it's difficult to see a religious leader not being a divine spellcaster.

Jergmo
2009-06-29, 01:55 PM
Er... you're getting a crap ton of other abilities (probably someone will list them out as I type this) in exchange for your RHD and LA modifiers so... yeah you've got a number of other bonuses in addition to whatever casting.

Like I said, if NPC, they'll be some sort of gishy build that uses magic to enhance their natural inclinations, not try to play as something they're not suited for.

If PC.. .well neither is suitable for a normal game so you'd probably need to ad hoc stuff or use Savage Species as a reference for how to reduce LA bonuses if you absolutely must be a rare caster from an obscure species.

Everybody needs healing spells.

Krrth
2009-06-29, 01:57 PM
In D&D, it's difficult to see a religious leader not being a divine spellcaster.

Why? In DnD I'll admit it's unusual, but not impossible. Especially for those races that either don't have a deity, have a deity that doesn't grant spells, or simply doesn't care.

Kylarra
2009-06-29, 01:58 PM
Everybody needs healing spells.
Wands of Lesser Vigor, say no, no they don't.


as far as religious leader, a few points in Knowledge:Religion, combined with one or two levels of a divine casting class could easily make you the top religion-person in your tribe.

Jergmo
2009-06-29, 01:59 PM
Wands of Lesser Vigor, say no, no they don't.

How do they get them without taking them from PC races? Also, that's not a very good way of solving the problem from an RP view.

Finwe
2009-06-29, 01:59 PM
Really, the solution is to work out special cases as they arise. If you (or one of your players) wants to play as a certain race, and you think that the level adjustment is too high, then work with them to figure out a more reasonable adjustment. Rule 0, and all...

Jergmo
2009-06-29, 02:00 PM
Why? In DnD I'll admit it's unusual, but not impossible. Especially for those races that either don't have a deity, have a deity that doesn't grant spells, or simply doesn't care.

If their deity doesn't care about them, why are they worshipping it? :smallconfused:

Riffington
2009-06-29, 02:01 PM
Wands of Lesser Vigor, say no, no they don't.

There may be a species that is not sophisticated enough to have some healers, but is sophisticated enough to purchase mass-produced wands of an obscure spell (and has the Use Magic Device to activate them). There are not many.

Kylarra
2009-06-29, 02:02 PM
How do they get them without taking them from PC races?Well considering it only requires caster level 5 to make and every single PC group I've played with is carrying a half dozen, I imagine it wouldn't be hard to build up stock from those hapless PCs trying to kill you for the lewts. :smalltongue:


There may be a species that is not sophisticated enough to have some healers, but is sophisticated enough to purchase mass-produced wands of an obscure spell (and has the Use Magic Device to activate them). There are not many.Sigh. I was being facetious, because pretty much every PC group uses wands of lesser vigor to replace healing, as soon as they can, bar the actual heal spell and equivalent potions.

Lesser vigor is a level 1 spell, and craft wand is a feat that requires only CL 5. Using even a moderate advancement in caster levels (5-6) which would increase your CR by only 3, you could easily pick up the feat and craft them, as the religious leader of your area. Sure, you're less effective than someone who went straight cleric/druid/etc, but I've been saying that all along anyway.

Jergmo
2009-06-29, 02:03 PM
Well considering it only requires caster level 5 to make and every single PC group I've played with is carrying a half dozen, I imagine it wouldn't be hard to build up stock from those hapless PCs trying to kill you for the lewts. :smalltongue:

Again, that isn't a very good way of looking at the problem from an RP perspective. I don't run a campaign of munchkins.

Krrth
2009-06-29, 02:03 PM
If their deity doesn't care about them, why are they worshipping it? :smallconfused:

Ask the Drow that question. Lloth only wants playthings and souls.

Worshipers get power, be it divine or social, or personal. Most of the "evil" deities don't care about worshipers, they care about what it does for them.

Jergmo
2009-06-29, 02:04 PM
Ask the Drow that question. Lloth only wants playthings and souls.

Worshipers get power, be it divine or social, or personal. Most of the "evil" deities don't care about worshipers, they care about what it does for them.

However, those deities grant spells. Which is the reason why those Drow clerics worship her.

Jergmo
2009-06-29, 02:05 PM
Again, that isn't a very good way of looking at the problem from an RP perspective. I don't run a campaign of munchkins.

Also, how are they killing all of these PC's who have spellcasters among them all the time?

The Rose Dragon
2009-06-29, 02:05 PM
If their deity doesn't care about them, why are they worshipping it? :smallconfused:

Why does anyone take care of a cat or a dog?

People do irrational things. Indeed, people rarely do rational things.

Kylarra
2009-06-29, 02:07 PM
Again, that isn't a very good way of looking at the problem from an RP perspective. I don't run a campaign of munchkins.
If you don't run a campaign of munchkins... then what's the problem here? :smallconfused:


No, I'm serious. If optimization of some sort is not the goal here... if all you care about is the "RP-perspective", why does it matter if <random bruiser race XYZ> can't produce casters that are on the same level as PC races while retaining an equivalent ECL and their racial bonuses?

Jergmo
2009-06-29, 02:07 PM
Why does anyone take care of a cat or a dog?

People do irrational things. Indeed, people rarely do rational things.

But...if they see other people worshipping a deity who grants them power, and theirs doesn't do anything for them...why... :smallconfused: DOES NOT COMPUTE. :smalleek:

Krrth
2009-06-29, 02:07 PM
However, those deities grant spells. Which is the reason why those Drow clerics worship her.

Actually.....not necessarily. The clerics could get spells without worshiping any deity (in any setting but forgotten realms, anyways.) Lloth could be sitting on her butt eating souls like popcorn, not granting any spells whatsoever....and her clergy wouldn't be the wiser. Especially if she arranges an "accident" for someone who figures it out.

For that matter, her clergy has a vested interest in arranging that accident without her even getting involved.



edit: What I'm saying is they may THINK they are getting power from worship....but aren't.

Jergmo
2009-06-29, 02:09 PM
If you don't run a campaign of munchkins... then what's the problem here? :smallconfused:


No, I'm serious. If optimization of some sort is not the goal here... if all you care about is the "RP-perspective", why does it matter if <random bruiser race XYZ> can't produce casters that are on the same level as PC races while retaining an equivalent ECL and their racial bonuses?

Because it doesn't make sense that it's impossible for any creature stronger than a human to be able to progress as well as a humanoid that doesn't have more racial hit die.

Kylarra
2009-06-29, 02:14 PM
Also, how are they killing all of these PC's who have spellcasters among them all the time?Are you arguing for the sake of arguing or have you never actually seen a monster race kill a pc?


But...if they see other people worshipping a deity who grants them power, and theirs doesn't do anything for them...why... :smallconfused: DOES NOT COMPUTE. :smalleek:
By strict RAW you don't have to worship a deity at all to be granted cleric spells. So this point is irrelevant.



Because it doesn't make sense that it's impossible for any creature stronger than a human to be able to progress as well as a humanoid that doesn't have more racial hit die.
It's just as impossible for a fighter4 to progress as a wizard as a well as a wizard who hasn't taken any levels as a fighter.


Are you really not seeing the point? They already have equivalent "class levels" of sorts that grant them HP, saves, feats, BAB, skills etc. If you take on equivalent progression (to non RHD/LA races) in casting classes onto that, why haven't all of the LA/RHD races taken over the world yet? DM fiat?

nightwyrm
2009-06-29, 02:14 PM
RAW is RAW. By the game rules, any race with level adjustment or racial hit dice makes terrible casters. Arguing that you don't like RAW won't do anything. If you don't like RAW, change it for your game. Make up your own ogre or giant races without LA or racial hd.

No one really cares what happens in your home game. No one cares either if your houserules breaks the game further than it already is.

Krrth
2009-06-29, 02:14 PM
Because it doesn't make sense that it's impossible for any creature stronger than a human to be able to progress as well as a humanoid that doesn't have more racial hit die.

Actually....it does. The more powerful you are compared to a "PC" race, the less motivation you have to get something done.

Why bother learning how to throw a fireball when your innate abilities allow you to throw a lightning bolt, command sharks, or just throw large boulders at anything that annoys you?

Jergmo
2009-06-29, 02:16 PM
Are you arguing for the sake of arguing or have you never actually seen a monster race kill a pc?


By strict RAW you don't have to worship a deity at all to be granted cleric spells. So this point is irrelevant.



It's just as impossible for a fighter4 to progress as a wizard as a well as a wizard who hasn't taken any levels as a fighter.


Are you really not seeing the point? They already have equivalent "class levels" of sorts that grant them HP, saves, feats, BAB, skills etc. If you take on equivalent progression (to non RHD/LA races) in casting classes onto that, why haven't all of the LA/RHD races taken over the world yet? DM fiat?


I have yet to see a monster race kill a group of PC's where the players weren't being really stupid or it was a grossly CR-inappropriate creature.

Because humans are more numerous and adaptable. Also, I'm not even going to bother arguing about the racials make them better fighters thing so that's what they're all going to play because this is getting nowhere.

Jergmo
2009-06-29, 02:18 PM
Actually....it does. The more powerful you are compared to a "PC" race, the less motivation you have to get something done.

Why bother learning how to throw a fireball when your innate abilities allow you to throw a lightning bolt, command sharks, or just throw large boulders at anything that annoys you?

Back to the example of a Cloud Giant, the only spell-like abilities it has are levitate, obscuring mist, and fog cloud. However, they're set up to be played as clerics or sorcerers.

The Rose Dragon
2009-06-29, 02:24 PM
Back to the example of a Cloud Giant, the only spell-like abilities it has are levitate, obscuring mist, and fog cloud. However, they're set up to be played as clerics or sorcerers.

They are not set up to be played. At all. Not as clerics. Not as fighters. At all. See their Level Adjustment entry in the SRD? What does it say? "-". Meaning they are not meant to be played.

Hell, if something has an ECL higher than 4, it probably wasn't meant to be played, despite what the LA might tell you.

Jergmo
2009-06-29, 02:26 PM
They are not set up to be played. At all. Not as clerics. Not as fighters. At all. See their Level Adjustment entry in the SRD? What does it say? "-". Meaning they are not meant to be played.

Hell, if something has an ECL higher than 4, it probably wasn't meant to be played, despite what the LA might tell you.

What I meant was, they were meant to be good sorcerers and clerics, not to be played as one. Sorry.

lsfreak
2009-06-29, 02:29 PM
A lot of these arguments make no sense except when you view NPC races as nothing but experience-on-legs...

Adjust. Take a look at what things *should* be like and change them. You can't make a specific rule for how to convert because you end up with things like ogres still being useless while others are crazy-powerful.

One way would be to trade *some* racial HD for class levels. For example (just making stuff up, don't know if it's balanced or anything) drop ogres down to 2HD/+1LA if they're a caster but 3HD/+2 as a melee, explaining it that the caster did not progress as much in terms of the norm of the society (represented as racial HD) but instead went into other areas upon reaching adulthood; the fighter did progress as normal (more racial HD). This provides fluff to make sense of mechanics, because a caster-ogre needs racial HD to make up only for added size (which, really, is a penalty unless maybe they're gishing) and the non-humanoid race. The fighter-ogre, on the other hand, needs HD/LA to bring it up farther because of the benefits of the added reach and large Str boost.

The Rose Dragon
2009-06-29, 02:30 PM
They can be good sorcerers and clerics. However, they will be greatly more powerful than their human counterparts of the same level.

ECL does not determine how powerful something is in combat. That would be CR. A PC roughly has +1 CR compared to an NPC of the same level and race, due to increased stats and wealth.

ECL system is an afterthought. Upon a slight glance, it becomes obvious that WotC did not work out the full implications of it, or even if they did, that they did not really work to balance it out. To try and determine any facts about a game world using those rules will mostly result in great fail.

LibraryOgre
2009-06-29, 02:32 PM
I allow people to replace Racial HD with NPC classes, if they wish. NPC classes, in addition to being superior to Humanoid Racial HD, also count as one less for the calculation of ECL.

Frog Dragon
2009-06-29, 02:34 PM
If their deity doesn't care about them, why are they worshipping it? :smallconfused:
Because they believe the deity cares about and attribute say.. luck for the deity?

Jergmo
2009-06-29, 02:38 PM
They can be good sorcerers and clerics. However, they will be greatly more powerful than their human counterparts of the same level.

ECL does not determine how powerful something is in combat. That would be CR. A PC roughly has +1 CR compared to an NPC of the same level and race, due to increased stats and wealth.

ECL system is an afterthought. Upon a slight glance, it becomes obvious that WotC did not work out the full implications of it, or even if they did, that they did not really work to balance it out. To try and determine any facts about a game world using those rules will mostly result in great fail.

Their ECL does, however, determine how they will be able to increase their CR with levels.

The Rose Dragon
2009-06-29, 02:39 PM
Their ECL does, however, determine how they will be able to increase their CR with levels.

Not unless they are players, it doesn't. ECL only applies to PCs and player cohorts. Anything else runs on CR.

Jergmo
2009-06-29, 02:40 PM
Not unless they are players, it doesn't. ECL only applies to PCs and player cohorts. Anything else runs on CR.

But...then how did the NPC's get their class levels?

Krrth
2009-06-29, 02:41 PM
But...then how did the NPC's get their class levels?

Same way PC's did. The difference is, in the hands of a player, many of the abilities give them a significant advantage over other PC's of the same level.

Jergmo
2009-06-29, 02:42 PM
Same way PC's did. The difference is, in the hands of a player, many of the abilities give them a significant advantage over other PC's of the same level.

Alright, then...and I guess NPC's could have gotten experience through RP means as well, through their backstory.

FMArthur
2009-06-29, 02:48 PM
NPCs don't know what level they are in a normal game world. Nobody is supposed to, because it's an abstract measure of your relative power. Some races are just plain more powerful, right from birth, and that affects their power rating accordingly. So if a group of adventurers decide to include super-human creatures in their ranks, they will need class levels to keep up.

Telonius
2009-06-29, 02:52 PM
But...if they see other people worshipping a deity who grants them power, and theirs doesn't do anything for them...why... :smallconfused: DOES NOT COMPUTE. :smalleek:

Because the chief cleric of the evil deity says that if you think about converting, he'll either put an axe through your head or stop asking his deity to not smite you.

daggaz
2009-06-29, 03:12 PM
Ok you are getting your fluff all messed up in my mechanics, and I'm sorry to say, but its the mechanics which are the sole and direct result of either balance or imbalance. Fluff has nothing to do with balance. You should probably repeat that to yourself: "Fluff has nothing to do with balance."

Its been mostly said or touched upon by various posts in this thread, but allow me to consolidate.

1. NPCs are NOT PCs. Never were, never will be. The most important game mechanic you are forgetting here, is that PC's are expected to work (optimally) in a group of four, whereas NPCs (including monsters) can range from anything from solo encounter to a horde. The real big point with that is, is that the PCs will be having several of these encounters every day, whereas the NPC only meets the PCs in battle once (effectively, per day, recurring villains often involve a heal or buff between battles, or an entire nights rest or more).

Another aspect of the group versus monsters mechanic, is group synergy. It is multiplicative on the power table, whereas many monsters are made strong enough to be stand alone. We will come back to this point soon.

As well, PC's tend to be decked out with full WBL and are highly optimized. While you can get away with optimizing most if not all of your encounters as a DM if your group is good, pimping their gear to full WBL following PC rules will quickly flood your game and overpower your PCs. More importantly, doing this ups the CR of the encounter significantly, as monsters are considered "balanced" with far, far less gear than a PC of a similiar "level."

2. Many racial HD are superior or equal to class levels. Outsiders and dragons have been brought up, but there are others. Now, outsiders and dragons tend to have some pretty meaty CRs, which brings us to the second part of this point.

While not all racial HD are that pimpy, they are in place to help balance out the CR rating due to the imposed benefits said monster gets by taking that race. Ogres get collosal strength, size and reach. Lizardmen get a nice natural armor bonus, decent stat mods, and some impressive jump skills. A troll gets massive strength and con, and has flipping regeneration!! The racial levels are to balance that out some with the CRs. LA is ONLY used as a last resort with the balancing act. If the game were perfectly balanced, there would be no such thing as LA, only racial hard die (except maybe in the case of PC monster races.. but thats another story.)

So if you are complaining about an ogre who cant be a druid, dont forget to maybe reduce his size some, and wimpify him, etc, etc, before you strip those racial HD because that is what they are paying for. As it is, if its an NPC its actually not that hard to get an ogre druid into the fight. Even more importantly, if you start getting synergy with your monster groupings, you should start upping the CR of the encounter to compensate. A rakshasa sorcerer with an Ogre berserker body guard and a Cloud Giant cleric are far, far more challenging than three cloud giant warriors, even tho the classed group is "gimped" in class levels and the warriors are upped enough to even out the supposed CRs.

3. The game is far from being perfectly balanced. CRs are notorious for being too high or too low. If you want to change things tho, it has to be on a race by race basis, with a lot of playtesting to make sure things are right. There is no single formula for accurately taking into effect the different monster abilities and how they work in a fight. There are even differences that a good DM looks at between one monster, and two different PC groups. Changing the monster to a PC just really complicates things, because now you have to value that monster against all the other monsters, instead of just against the one group of PCs.

Gralamin
2009-06-29, 03:22 PM
Consider:
What is Challenge Rating 4?
Well, an Ogre is Challenge Rating 4 and ECL 6.
A Human Wizard 4 is CR 4 and ECL 4
A Dwarf Fighter 4 is CR 4 and ECL 4, etc.

There are two main ways of trying to fix this: Adjust as seemingly needed (Possibly using CR and better CR estimating methods such as Vorpal Tribble's), or the 4e way.
The 4e way is pretty simple, and something that I believe should be ported over to 3.x: Make the creature into an LA +0 race, and then use a combination of feats and prestige Classes (That are optional!) to make them closer to the monster.

So if you say wanted an Ogre, using the 4e method, it might be:
Medium size
+4 Strength, -2 Dex, +2 Con, -2 Int, -2 Cha
Giant Type
Darkvision
40 ft Land Speed
+1 NA
(If this is to powerful for 3.5, Increase the penalties)

or some such, with a feat that look like...
Improved Durability
Prerequisite: Ogre
Benefit: You gain a +2 bonus to your Natural Armor

And a Prestige class such as...
True Ogre
You regain the power of your heritage!
Prereqs
Race: Ogre
Level: At least level 3.
Feats: Improved Durability

d8 Hit die
{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special
1|+0|+2|+0|+0|+2 Constitution
2|+1|+3|+0|+0|+2 Strength, +1 NA
3|+2|+3|+1|+1|+2 Strength, Giant's Size
4|+3|+4|+1|+1|Giant's Reach, +2 Strength, +1 NA[/table]

+2 Constitution - At First level, you gain a +2 bonus to your constitution score.
+2 Strength - At Second level, and every level there after, you gain a +2 bonus to your Strength score.
+1 NA - At Second level and Fourth level, you gain a +1 bonus to your Natural Armor.
Giant's Size - You advance to large size, gaining none of the associated increases in Ability scores. You do not gain reach.
Giant's Reach - Your reach increases to 10 ft long.

--------------------------------
So above, we have: A) Gotten rid of the LA, B) Made it playable from level 1, and C) gave an optional prestige class that would give you the full traits, at an about equivalent level as an Ogre's ECL.

Jergmo
2009-06-29, 03:22 PM
Actually, on the WBL level thing, I have a somewhat-unrelated question. Regular NPC's have WBL -1, but what about NPC adventurers? Shouldn't they have full WBL, and they'd just have a higher CR from better attributes and wealth?

Jergmo
2009-06-29, 03:25 PM
There are two main ways of trying to fix this: Adjust as seemingly needed (Possibly using CR and better CR estimating methods such as Vorpal Tribble's), or the 4e way.

Could you toss me a link to Vorpal Tribble's bit?

Thrawn183
2009-06-29, 03:25 PM
What exactly is stopping an ogre from being a level 20 wizard? Sure, the best ogre wizard will have the same int score as a wizard with a natural 14... but so what? It's not like they won't get 9th level spells just like everybody else.

What's to stop a cloud giant from taking 20 levels in cleric? The only reason you don't see them is that they would be grossly inappropriate encounters for PC's. That doesn't mean they don't exist.

The only thing ECL does is try and make it so that monsters played in a party are as powerful as the humanoids. So what if it doesn't work well with casters, unless the monster has...you know... a natural talent for being a caster? It's not like they can't become strong casters, they just won't be as strong as humanoid casters of the same ECL.

daggaz
2009-06-29, 03:26 PM
Sure, you can do that. But they should be rare (as adventurers so often are, unless you are in FR) or for some reason, be protected from assault by your PCs... unless you want your PCs to break the WBL guidelines.

I will often toss in the occasional fully decked NPC adventurer into my games, but they will be too powerful for the group to take, or they will be on the same side, or their will be some horrible repurcussion if they are attacked, etc etc.. Otherwise you just smash your game balance and you have to really up the CR of the encounters to compensate for character wealth.

And this is a sticky situation to get into, as often pimped out gear means there is a soft and squishy PC on the inside who doesnt have enough hitpoints or saves to take those kind of fights, and the stickiness ends up being a rather large puddle of blood with the entire party lying dead in the middle of it.

EDIT: as far as Vorpal Tribble goes, well... he is THE MAN and wizards should hire that guy to completely redo all of their monster books. Just do a search for his name under homebrew, you should find plenty.

Jergmo
2009-06-29, 03:29 PM
Sure, you can do that. But they should be rare (as adventurers so often are, unless you are in FR) or for some reason, be protected from assault by your PCs... unless you want your PCs to break the WBL guidelines.

I will often toss in the occasional fully decked NPC adventurer into my games, but they will be too powerful for the group to take, or they will be on the same side, or their will be some horrible repurcussion if they are attacked, etc etc.. Otherwise you just smash your game balance and you have to really up the CR of the encounters to compensate for character wealth.

And this is a sticky situation to get into, as often pimped out gear means there is a soft and squishy PC on the inside who doesnt have enough hitpoints or saves to take those kind of fights, and the stickiness ends up being a rather large puddle of blood with the entire party lying dead in the middle of it.

I only intend to fully deck out NPC's that are significant.

Gralamin
2009-06-29, 03:31 PM
Could you toss me a link to Vorpal Tribble's bit?

Fax has it here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10313).


Divide its average HP by 4.5 to 6,
4.5 for 5 HD or lower, 5 for 6-10 HD, 5.5 for 11-15 HD, 6 for 16-20 HD.
Add 1 for each five points above 10 its AC is, minusing 1 for every 5 below.
Add 1 for each special attack (+2 to +5 or more if its got a decent number of spells in its spell-like abilities).
Add 1 for each quality unless you deem it worthy of more. Add 1 for each resistance and 10 points of DR it has, and 2 for each immunity.
Add 1 for every two bonus feats it has.
Divide by 3.

daggaz
2009-06-29, 03:33 PM
--------------------------------
So above, we have: A) Gotten rid of the LA, B) Made it playable from level 1, and C) gave an optional prestige class that would give you the full traits, at an about equivalent level as an Ogre's ECL.

Unfortunately, you have also gotten rid of customization on the DMs part regarding feats, as the "ogre" is now required to burn his feats in order to...be an ogre. Dont want to flame 4e, but customization is one of the big things holding most 3.x'ers back from switching.

With 3.5, Ogres usually come with power attack, but their is nothing stopping me from having my Ogre druid take natural spell or something else.. or switching my lizardmans multiattack feat out with, say, power attack and leap attack after I put him up a few class levels.

Gralamin
2009-06-29, 03:36 PM
Unfortunately, you have also gotten rid of customization on the DMs part regarding feats, as the "ogre" is now required to burn his feats in order to...be an ogre. Dont want to flame 4e, but customization is one of the big things holding most 3.x'ers back from switching.

With 3.5, Ogres usually come with power attack, but their is nothing stopping me from having my Ogre druid take natural spell or something else.. or switching my lizardmans multiattack feat out with, say, power attack and leap attack after I put him up a few class levels.

Burning a single a feat to be more of "an ogre" is to much? Seriously?

Jergmo
2009-06-29, 03:37 PM
Fax has it here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10313).

Thanks. :smallsmile:

Devils_Advocate
2009-06-29, 03:42 PM
Jergmo, D&D isn't a simulation. There are loads of things in it that don't make sense. It doesn't make sense that killing monsters helps you to learn new spells faster in the first place, so saying that the way that monster races modify this is nonsensical is a little silly. The way that hit points work is unrealistic. The rules for buying, selling, and crafting items are nonsensical, in that it's unclear what sort of economy could conceivably support them. And so on. Verisimilitude in D&D is achieved by not thinking about things too much (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BellisariosMaxim), not through attention to detail.

All of the complexity of the system isn't there to create balance or realism; it's there to give geeks something to fiddle with endlessly, because we frankly like doing that.

ericgrau
2009-06-29, 03:51 PM
Okay, am I the only one that sees something horribly wrong with this? These creatures already have a level adjustment, and on top of that, their racial hit dice counts towards their ECL. For example, a level 1 ogre barbarian would be CR 4, buts it would effectively be a level 7 character.

They have four giant hit dice, which is equal to +1 CR according to improving monsters. So to be fair, shouldn't their ECL actually be 4? That would fit with their challenge rating, and the ogre is no longer crippled.

Agree/disagree/RABBLE RABBLE?

Full level 7 character equipment and unusual things that ogres can do which PCs cannot. Like being large size all the time and having an unusually high strength to break stuff. Heck, in 2nd edition monster henchman controlled by PCs lost their darkvision purely for this reason & balance. No player races had darkvision in 2e, and it was a big deal to have access to darkvision in 2e. An enemy ogre barbarian is still CR 3 + class levels because he doesn't have all that gear and because his abilities to do things like break down dungeon walls & doors aren't much use in a fight against the PCs. i.e., ECL and CR are intentionally two different values b/c the power of an ogre in the fight against the PCs is completely different from the power of an ogre in the hands of a PC.

That's the reason and the whole reason. Both in terms of actual balance and IIRC the formal reason given by those who put the system together in the first place.

Yuki Akuma
2009-06-29, 03:53 PM
What exactly is stopping an ogre from being a level 20 wizard? Sure, the best ogre wizard will have the same int score as a wizard with a natural 14... but so what? It's not like they won't get 9th level spells just like everybody else.

No he won't. He'll have 0th, 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th-level spells, and none higher. He'll have a lot of spell slots, but he won't be able to cast anything more powerful than a 4th-level spell.

Of course he'll be able to cast twenty-four 4th level spells...

The Rose Dragon
2009-06-29, 03:53 PM
No player races had darkvision in 2e

Wait, wait, wait. Back up.

There was Darkvision in 2nd Edition?

only1doug
2009-06-29, 03:55 PM
No he won't. He'll have 0th, 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th-level spells, and none higher. He'll have a lot of spell slots, but he won't be able to cast anything more powerful than a 4th-level spell.

Of course he'll be able to cast twenty-four 4th level spells...

no, he'll have a base Int of 14, modified by +1 every 4 levels and by items, resulting in him being capable of casting 9th level spells.

ericgrau
2009-06-29, 03:56 PM
Wait, wait, wait. Back up.

There was Darkvision in 2nd Edition?

Technically there was only ultravision and infravision. Ultravision was essentially darkvision and infravision in total darkness was supposed to be similar to humans seeing via moonlight (poorly). Only monsters had ultravision IIRC.

hamishspence
2009-06-29, 03:57 PM
Elves got infravision, way back. As did dwarves and, I think, halflings.

Yuki Akuma
2009-06-29, 03:58 PM
no, he'll have a base Int of 14, modified by +1 every 4 levels and by items, resulting in him being capable of casting 9th level spells.

Hm. I see what you mean now.

You know honestly I think it would be more fun to play a level 20 Wizard with an Int of 14.

ericgrau
2009-06-29, 03:59 PM
Elves got infravision, way back. As did dwarves and, I think, halflings.

Ya, see edited version of post. I had to read up on the matter myself.

The Rose Dragon
2009-06-29, 04:01 PM
Technically there was only ultravision and infravision. Ultravision was essentially darkvision and infravision was similar but something else. Only monsters had ultravision IIRC.

I don't recall ultravision myself. Probably because most of my recollection is as a player.

FatR
2009-06-30, 05:31 AM
Okay, am I the only one that sees something horribly wrong with this? These creatures already have a level adjustment, and on top of that, their racial hit dice counts towards their ECL. For example, a level 1 ogre barbarian would be CR 4, buts it would effectively be a level 7 character.

They have four giant hit dice, which is equal to +1 CR according to improving monsters. So to be fair, shouldn't their ECL actually be 4? That would fit with their challenge rating, and the ogre is no longer crippled.

Agree/disagree/RABBLE RABBLE?
Yes, I generally agree. ECL should be equal to CR +1, at most (+1 to compensate for extra stats and equipment). Racial HD + ECL in their current form are explicitly, blatantly meant to arbitrarily and horribly punish players who want to play monsters. You will be hard-pressed to find a character with ECL that is remotely playable - of the top of my head I remember just one race (half-ogre) and one template (Feral) that can be theoretically worth taking, although even they are not as good as levels in real classes. Because ECL is almost always too high and racial HDs are treated as equal to class levels, even though they are strictly worse in practically all cases (well, dragon or outsider HDs can be better than levels past level 2-6 in classes, that never were meant to be more than 2-6 levels long, like monk or fighter, but that's about all).

The only exception is puzzle monsters, like ghosts or even lycanthropes - those, frankly, cannot be measured by a static ECL, because at low levels their inherent abilities make them immune to vast majority of things that endanger normal PCs, and at high levels these abilities become increasingly useless (while their weaknesses might become totally crippling).

Yuki Akuma
2009-06-30, 05:59 AM
ECL is higher than CR in most cases because PCs can get a heck of a lot of use out of most monster abilities that monsters will only have a chance to use once.

A pixie with levels in Rogue is far more effective as a PC (having four encounters per day in which to get his entirely free Sneak Attack) than as an encounter (where he'll be gibbed pretty quickly as soon as someone casts Glitterdust).

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-06-30, 06:47 AM
The problem is not that a given CR X monster ends up being an ECL 2X PC, the problem is that a single Level Y NPC is not a suitable challenge for a party of four Level Y PCs. Certain monsters are appropriately challenging for their CR, some monsters are very difficult given their CR, and some monsters are just a pushover for their CR.

Most PHB races with class levels are a pushover considering what their CR is, they may as well hold up a sign that says, "Free Gear" because that's all they're viewed as by experienced players. There are very few NPC builds who alone can pose a credible threat to a party of adventurers. Even then, nearly all of those are entirely dependent on setting up the encounter in their favor. For example, make a Human Fighter 4 with Mounted Combat, Mounted Archery, Weapon Focus/Specialization: Composite Longbow, Point-Blank Shot, and Rapid Shot. Give him four Potions of Protection from Arrows, if he only has one he may want to save it for another fight plus it's a bit rude to only give him one which he uses. He should be mounted on a light warhorse and encountered out in an open field, using a ride-and-shoot strategy to keep the PCs at the edge of his first range increment. He can deal quite a bit of damage over just a few rounds, and thanks to the potions and probably some decent armor the PCs probably wouldn't be able to do any damage to him at all short of Magic Missile. As an opponent encountered in his ideal environment that is a very strong build, but as a PC that character is extremely weak simply because he's seldom in his ideal environment.

Just like that character, most monsters are extremely powerful in one particular area. It is that one strength that they use to challenge the PCs, for example an Ogre uses its high strength and large size to make powerful melee attacks. The game designers reviewed the monsters they made that could be playable as PCs, decided what ECL they would be equivalent to if played to their strengths, and assigned them a level adjustment based on how many racial hit dice they already had. An Ogre may be an extremely weak spellcaster, but that doesn't change the fact that it's a much more powerful melee combatant than a standard PHB race. In order for a monster to be appropriately challenging for its CR, it needs to be able to do what it's best at or designed to do. Similarly, if a creature of that race is going to be a PC, it must be given an ECL based on the assumption that a PC of that race will use what that race is already good at and even improve on it. If you don't play to the race's strengths, of course you'll have a weak character, just like if the encounter doesn't play to its strengths the PCs will have an easy victory.

If the Fighter build above were encountered on a narrow mountain pass where he didn't have room to maneuver, it would be an extremely easy fight. Just the same, if an Ogre has a few levels of Wizard or Cleric and sits there casting 1st level spells instead of doing what he's naturally good at, he's going to be easy to defeat with little or no loss of resources. If you want the Ogre tribe to have witch doctors or holy/wise elders, use classes like Hexblade, Pious Templar, Blackguard, even Disciple of Thrym from Frostburn. Those classes still contribute to what they're naturally good at by providing a high BAB and HD, but still provide class abilities that fit the flavor of what role you want them to fill in their society.

Starbuck_II
2009-06-30, 08:37 AM
Then shouldn't they give viable LA based on its strength?

Like an Ogre is LA +2 as a melee, but LA +0 as a caster.
I mean a caster is behind 4 HD (and mental penalty) already.

I'm surprised that wasn't done.

Flickerdart
2009-06-30, 09:59 AM
Then shouldn't they give viable LA based on its strength?

Like an Ogre is LA +2 as a melee, but LA +0 as a caster.
I mean a caster is behind 4 HD (and mental penalty) already.

I'm surprised that wasn't done.
And what of half-casters? Gishes? Skill monkeys? Not everything is a beatstick or a caster.

Myrmex
2009-06-30, 11:17 AM
Also, that ogre druid wouldn't have 8 int and 10 wis. It'd have whatever it got from rolling or elite array. So, if it had the elite array and put the 15 on wisdom, then it wouldn't have a problem. These creatures not having spellcasters of any kind defies any form of logic. Every intelligent creature has religion.

An ogre is CR 3. A 6th level ogre druid or cleric is CR 6. Giant HD + cleric levels = win.

Doug Lampert
2009-06-30, 11:31 AM
I posted on this just recently, as it happens.

Yep, I've run monsters improved with a class level or two and elite abilities and gear as an NPC of their ECL and found they are STILL slightly overpowered treating them as CR==ECL.

Gear makes a HUGE difference, decent feat choices are worth another level or so.

The 3.5 claim that elite stats make a CR 9 monster into a CR 10 monster; and the elite array, two class levels (pick a non-associated class), sane feats, and gear as a CR10 NPC is ALSO a CR 10 creature is totally insane.

Doug Lampert
2009-06-30, 11:52 AM
Yes, I generally agree. ECL should be equal to CR +1, at most (+1 to compensate for extra stats and equipment).

You GROSSLY undervalue the equipment and stats. (But then so does WotC).

Take a monster like a succubus or erinyes, assign elite abilities and decent feats, the save DC against its dominate just went up by +4 or more, it gained a fair number of HP and its saves and AC are both better. Then add gear. It's AC is +7 or more (mithral chain shirt + other items), and it's save DCs go up by yet ANOTHER 2 points to +6 over standard.

Melee builds do the same thing, +5 or so to attacks and damage, +5 or more to AC, +1 or 2 HP/HD, + to all saves.

DougL

Starbuck_II
2009-06-30, 12:09 PM
You GROSSLY undervalue the equipment and stats. (But then so does WotC).

Take a monster like a succubus or erinyes, assign elite abilities and decent feats, the save DC against its dominate just went up by +4 or more, it gained a fair number of HP and its saves and AC are both better. Then add gear. It's AC is +7 or more (mithral chain shirt + other items), and it's save DCs go up by yet ANOTHER 2 points to +6 over standard.

Melee builds do the same thing, +5 or so to attacks and damage, +5 or more to AC, +1 or 2 HP/HD, + to all saves.

DougL

But even NPCs should be using at least 2/3 of their gear directly (rest should be consumerables like potions).

So gear is included irregardless, but PC ones would get more.


And what of half-casters? Gishes? Skill monkeys? Not everything is a beatstick or a caster.

1/2 caster and skill monkeys are LA +1 for Ogre (thus 1/2).

Remember Ogres aren't skill monkeys.

Pixies are skill monkeys so the max LA is for them (+4). Same for 1/2 casters.
Casters +3.
Melee +2.

So Fighter takes levels in wizard, now gets more LA (when they gain that level), they shouldn't have tried to bend the system.

Gishes use worst rating (otherwise it would be too strong).

Devils_Advocate
2009-06-30, 04:55 PM
The 3.5 claim that elite stats make a CR 9 monster into a CR 10 monster; and the elite array, two class levels (pick a non-associated class), sane feats, and gear as a CR10 NPC is ALSO a CR 10 creature is totally insane.
I think that it only gets 2nd-level gear; e.g. a giant given 2 levels of Wizard gets the gear of a 2nd-level Wizard in addition to its normal treasure. I think.

But yeah, the CR increase from giving something the elite array should stack with, not overlap with, the CR increase from giving something class levels, since each of those changes improves the monster in a way that isn't redundant with the other. I don't know what they were thinking there.

Animefunkmaster
2009-06-30, 05:05 PM
CR =/= ECL

And while that would be a nice concept (everything judged by the same standard), it just doesn't work that way.

A level 5 Monk is not an CR 5 encounter. A level 5 Codzilla is. Wizard might be, assuming he wins initiative.

Myrmex
2009-07-01, 11:37 AM
I think that it only gets 2nd-level gear; e.g. a giant given 2 levels of Wizard gets the gear of a 2nd-level Wizard in addition to its normal treasure. I think.

That's how I do it. If the ogre has any rolled ogre treasure it could possibly use (magic spear, scrolls), then it does.

Myrmex
2009-07-01, 11:50 AM
A level 5 Monk is not an CR 5 encounter.

Depends on the build. If you give it the right feats and skills, it definitely is. It can avoid most of the tricks Batman uses at level 5, thanks to its high saves and ranks in balance & escape artist. As long as it chooses to fight on difficult terrain (which anything with a good move speed should), it can stay out of range and chug a few potions.


A level 5 Codzilla is.

Not... really. It depends a lot on domains (ie, do they have undeath and planning). At level 5, they will have MAYBE two spells persisted, and they won't be that great of spells. They'll get creamed by the party's melee. If you give the cleric some time to buff before hand, then it'll be about as dangerous as a 5th level fighter (minus any battlefield control or power attack). Which is to say, it is a CR5 encounter.


Wizard might be, assuming he wins initiative.

Wizards are scary dangerous. It depends on circumstances, of course, but usually a wizard is CR 1 or 2 higher than his caster level. If you have every battle take place arena style, on a featureless plain, where everyone just rolls for initiative and are no more than 60 feet away from each other, then a wizard is only dangerous, as you said, if it wins initiative.

However, if the wizard is aware of the party for any reason before initiative is rolled, then the wizard is much MUCH more dangerous, since he can put up fly and invisibility, then jump the party when the situation is at his advantage, or use illusions to distract or separate the party.

HamHam
2009-07-01, 12:25 PM
The ECL system is pretty messed up. I think that as a DM, the best thing to do is just forget about it and go back to the basics:

If the monster character has X levels in a class, compare that to a human (or other LA +0 race) character with Y levels in that class. The point where the two are as equal in power as possible is the ECL.

Doug Lampert
2009-07-07, 04:58 PM
I think that it only gets 2nd-level gear; e.g. a giant given 2 levels of Wizard gets the gear of a 2nd-level Wizard in addition to its normal treasure. I think.

Read the description of how to make random NPC adventurers in the DMG and look at the class level adjustment for monster races. CR 8 races take a -8 to class level, but explicitely DO GET full NPC gear as an NPC of their CR.

Done your way it's only grossly unballanced rather than totally insanely unballanced, unfortunately we know that for many races that's not how it works, and have no indication that that is how it works for anyone.

If you add two levels of wizard to a CR 10 giant it gets elite abilities, and level 11 NPC gear all for that +1 CR.

Someone else mentioned ogres. Sorry, IIRC ogres are on that table, there's specific rules support in core that says they get full gear based on CR, not on class level.

SoD
2009-07-07, 07:44 PM
An ogre is CR 3. A 6th level ogre druid or cleric is CR 6. Giant HD + cleric levels = win.

How? Given that Clerics and Druids are, typically, melee casters with their spells based off wisdom only, and Ogres are melee brutes, with no penalty to wisdom...I'd call Cleric and Druid associated classes. If it was bard, or Favoured Soul, or something not entirely melee+wisdom based, then yeah; unasociated.

AslanCross
2009-07-07, 08:15 PM
In D&D, it's difficult to see a religious leader not being a divine spellcaster.

In some settings, notably Eberron, only really high level religious authorities in major religions are clerics, and they are typically former adventurers. Your local Brother Bob would be an Expert with ranks in Knowledge (Religion), Heal, and other skills related to his profession.

As for ogres, I'd only make truly exceptional individuals actually have cleric levels, and they'd probably not even be actual ogres. There are more suitable races such as the skullcrusher ogre (MM3, no Int or Wis penalty, more RHD, but with a number of bonus feats), or even the ogre mage.

Ogres really are just shafted into being dumb muscle, unfortunately, but I don't see anything particularly troubling about it.



So gear is included irregardless, but PC ones would get more.


Grammar nitpick: "Irregardless" is incorrect and redundant. "Regardless" will suffice. Sorry. :smallredface:

Starbuck_II
2009-07-07, 08:53 PM
I said irregardless on purpose. :smallbiggrin: