Kubota and Crystal prediction (SPOILERS)

[hamishspence]

My prediction:

Haley and Elan will be talking about it. Elan will reveal his worries about V, and explain what happened with Kubota.

Haley will explain that you "never leave live enemies behind you" and that its practical, not immoral, to destroy them while they are "unarmed and helpless" and reveal that she killed Crystal while she was unarmed and without items.

Elan will be shocked.

[Optimystik]

Haley and V will ask Banjo for forgiveness, the Order will group hug, and then it's off to Girard's Gate :smallsmile:

[hamishspence]

Nice- a little optimystik :smallwink: but a nice idea.

[JonestheSpy]

Actually, I suspect the killing that's going to have serious repurcussions is the murder of 1/4 of the world's black dragons.

Tiamat is a Goddess of the West in this world, remember - right where they're heading.

[Ichneumon]

Actually, I suspect the killing that's going to have serious repurcussions is the murder of 1/4 of the world's black dragons.

Tiamat is a Goddess of the West in this world, remember - right where they're heading.

I can't think of any good story writing that would not include V having to deal with the consequences of her actions.

[Optimystik]

Nice- a little optimystik :smallwink: but a nice idea.

:smalltongue:


Actually, I suspect the killing that's going to have serious repurcussions is the murder of 1/4 of the world's black dragons.

Tiamat is a Goddess of the West in this world, remember - right where they're heading.

Which raises an interesting question - did the Oracle foresee V's act?

[Meg]

The Order will be subject to some very annoyed ghosts, but will otherwise be fine. Crystal's (completely harmless) ghost could be ripe fodder for comedy, actually.

[Morgan Wick]

My prediction:

Haley and Elan will be talking about it. Elan will reveal his worries about V, and explain what happened with Kubota.

Haley will explain that you "never leave live enemies behind you" and that its practical, not immoral, to destroy them while they are "unarmed and helpless" and reveal that she killed Crystal while she was unarmed and without items.

Elan will be shocked.

The only way I'd modify this - and at this point I'd say it'd be within a bonus strip (between 662 and 663?) or in the next book - is that it occurs at the tail end of Elan telling Haley about Therkla.

[NerfTW]

I think they are definitely going to come up later. That seems to be the point. First they debate what to do with the Linear Guild. Then V kills Kubota because his petty plots are putting the entire mission in danger. Then the black dragons. Then Haley kills Crystal to send a message to the Thieves Guild after they threw an army at her. And now they have a completely unrestrained Belkar working with them.

The Order is slowly being forced to consider just how far they're willing to go to complete their mission. Strong arm tactics are begining to be used. I foresee the Haley/Belkar/V contingent coming into conflict with the Durkon/Roy/Elan view on things.

[Optimystik]

The only way I'd modify this - and at this point I'd say it'd be within a bonus strip (between 662 and 663?) or in the next book - is that it occurs at the tail end of Elan telling Haley about Therkla.

If such a discussion/revelation already happened, it certainly didn't affect their relationship - they're holding hands while they cheer at Roy's revival. (antepenultimate panel, #665)

[Murdim]

I foresee the Haley/Belkar/V contingent coming into conflict with the Durkon/Roy/Elan view on things.Haley is Haley, but putting her in the "Evil" bag with NE Vaarsuvius and CE Belkar is quite... exaggerated. The Belkster devotes his entire life to the slaughter of sentient beings because it's funny and it makes himself feeling strong and great. V kills an unknown man just because he's tied-up and s/he doesn't want to waste time with a new trial, and then raise a vanquished enemy as a sentient undead, just to make him see everything as s/he kills her whole family as a "preventive retribution". Haley murdered her long-time nemesis, a thoroughly evil assassin who just tried to kill her, in order not to have her trying it again while she's on her quest to save the world (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WhatDoYouMeanItsNotHeinous) (she could have given 50% of the money she acquired to the evil leader of the evil Thieves' guild to be fixed with them, money she needs to free his Good-aligned father from an Evil Overlord, but that would fall into Stupid Good (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LawfulStupidChaoticStupid))

[fangthane]

Killing Kubota was an act of expediency with respect to the law, not with respect to good and evil. Whether V's understanding was complete is moot; he was an evil character bent on further evil after manipulating the legal system for the who-knows-how-manyth time, thus in an absolute sense his death was a non-evil event, and thus his killing non-evil in terms of results. Had Kubota been less evil than V assumed, then granted, the act would have swung toward evil in result, but he got lucky on that one*. V's justification was demonstrably non-good, tending as it did toward summary execution rather than mercy, and toward chaos rather than law since it involved a rather substantial shortcutting of that law, making his motive chaotic and his overall good/evil balanced for the combination of motivation and results. V couldn't be expected to anticipate that at some point Kubota's actions might hose a different and potentially greater evil, but that's a moot point since that gets into deific foreknowledge, so there's no 'rider' on the act to give it additional evil baggage. Net value is a chaotic/neutral act.

I'd judge Haley's act similarly. Her result may have been slightly more evil, though as an assassin who is empowered, and known to be empowered, by Haley's own progress, it could be argued that Haley's responsibility was to destroy such a monster rather than give it further power over Greysky. As to her anticipation of results, that's likely a wash again (only in obvious cases would I count anticipation against anyone, i.e. gassing the orphanage to kill the orcs holding the children hostage). Her motivation, while equally chaotic, is certainly a little darker than V's in killing Kubota - revenge or personal hatred are clearly evil; given that she claims chaotic good-ish alignment, she seems likely to be slipping a bit - but it's unclear (as it probably should be) whether she's taken the slide to neutral. After all, rogues don't lose class abilities for becoming non-good, let alone performing a single evil act.

On balance, I'd have to answer the question similarly to Ichneumon. I suspect we've already seen the first wave of repercussions for V, though obviously his response will trigger more now, but I'll be disappointed if Haley's side mission to scupper the 'peace treaty' doesn't bite someone in the ass.

Jones/Opti - That is indeed an interesting notion, and I can't help thinking that Tiamat would have to have known. Depending on actual numbers it may not have hit her Portfolio Sense (which may differ in the OotS world in any case) but her own Oracle gave to the ABD the prophecy which doomed the dragons in question. I'd say the larger question is whether it was an acceptable loss in light of what her dragons stand to lose/gain as a result of V's action (25% black > 100% all), in light of what she anticipates the Fiends doing, an effort to help along Redcloak's agenda due to wanting a little Evil Deific company, or whether she wanted an excuse for revenge (pretty thin, she usually doesn't need one) or just didn't care.


*and indeed, may well have been similarly fortunate regarding at least most of the dragons. That, however, remains entirely to be seen and based on the reactions of third-party observers, appears highly unlikely.

[Ytaker]

Tiamat is a Goddess of the West in this world, remember - right where they're heading.

Doesn't Tiamat have a strong copyright? It would be risky, to say the least, for Rich to try and steal Tiamat. I seriously doubt he'll try. I know he has a strong respect for his own copyright.

[dps]

Doesn't Tiamat have a strong copyright? It would be risky, to say the least, for Rich to try and steal Tiamat. I seriously doubt he'll try. I know he has a strong respect for his own copyright.

No. Tiamat is from classical Babylonian mythology. You can't copywrite that, any more than someone could take out a copywrite on Zeus or Afphrodite (or Ceasar or Napoleon, for that matter).

[Thanatosia]

She is not refered to by name, but Tiamat diffinately exists in the OotS universe: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html

Even if for whatever reason Rich chooses not to name her Tiamat, there is diffinately some sort of divinely powerful 'Great Five-headed Mistress of Dragons' out there that likely has an axe or two to grind with V.

[nysisobli]

In Sod she is referred to as T. by rat.

[Ytaker]

In Sod she is referred to as T. by rat.

Yeah. He's been sneaky with her. It'd be surprising if she held too major a role. He's avoided breaching copyright before, with that mindflayer monster. Roleplaying her, as an enemy, would be likely to attract lawyers.

[Azura]

Tiamat is referred to by name right here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0273.html) as one of the gods of the West.

[Ytaker]

That's risky. Especially since he's sold merchandise based on them, and that scene may be included in a book at some point.

[Haven]

That's risky. Especially since he's sold merchandise based on them, and that scene may be included in a book at some point.

...I don't think he has to worry about ancient Sumerian lawyers. Tiamat's just a little older than you think (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OlderThanTheyThink).

Though according to Snow Crash, those guys were capable of mind control. But they'd have a bunch of targets to get to before him, so.

[Ytaker]

...I don't think he has to worry about ancient Sumerian lawyers. Tiamat's just a little older than you think (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OlderThanTheyThink).

I know. But dnd uses a distinctive character, who isn't especially similar to her mythological basis.

[Bibliomancer]

Actually, I suspect the killing that's going to have serious repurcussions is the murder of 1/4 of the world's black dragons.

Tiamat is a Goddess of the West in this world, remember - right where they're heading.

Oh, this would be amusing.

:roy: Well, we finally made it to the Western Continent. Good thing no evil forces know we're here!

*Giant shadow blots out the sun*

:vaarsuvius: Oh, shi-

*Dragon foot (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0649.html) comes out of the sky and squishes V*

:roy: Well, so much for subterfuge. Time for plan B. RUN!

:belkar: I thought that was plan A. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0090.html)

[Drakron]

I know. But dnd uses a distinctive character, who isn't especially similar to her mythological basis.

You mean having "a tail, a thigh, "lower parts" (which shake together), a belly, an udder, ribs, a neck, a head, a skull, eyes, nostrils, a mouth, and lips. She has insides (possibly "entrails"), a heart, arteries, and blood."?

D&D barely created anything and in fact TSR was subject to several lawsuits for copyright infringement in their early years.

[veti]

I've always thought it terribly ironic that D&D, having ripped off everything from ancient mythology to living authors, now thinks it's in a moral position to complain about others violating its "intellectual property". Hell, the whole point of D&D is for every DM and player to create their own derivative interpretations.

As for the thread subject: I find myself shocked at Haley's killing of Crystal, but on reflection I decided I'm not willing to "judge" it. I can see good arguments for what she did. I think Elan would trust her to make that decision for herself, without him passing judgment on it. After all, that's what a Chaotic alignment means, right?

[Cracklord]

Gary Gygax is dead, and without his wise stewardship, so too is Dnd dying.
They refused to allow Margerat Weiss to write the final Dragonlance book, instead pasing it off to another author. Dnd is dying, my friends.

[Pronounceable]

I don't think so. Much as I liked him, Kubota was strictly small time. Much like the sorceress and assasins, he had no further relevance to the main plot. And Crystal's death was an ending. It tied up Haley's sidequest or sidearc, and showed the rogue side of her. Thieves Guild should have no relevance to the plot again unless OotS goes back to Greysky.

The black dragons, OTOH...

[Optimystik]

As for the thread subject: I find myself shocked at Haley's killing of Crystal, but on reflection I decided I'm not willing to "judge" it. I can see good arguments for what she did. I think Elan would trust her to make that decision for herself, without him passing judgment on it. After all, that's what a Chaotic alignment means, right?

That's a lot closer to True Neutral. Elan does care about her actions; he says so himself. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0223.html)


They refused to allow Margerat Weiss to write the final Dragonlance book, instead pasing it off to another author. Dnd is dying, my friends.

After Dragons of Summer Flame, I don't blame them.

[Leliel]

Gary Gygax is dead, and without his wise stewardship, so too is Dnd dying.
They refused to allow Margerat Weiss to write the final Dragonlance book, instead pasing it off to another author. Dnd is dying, my friends.

Go away.

No one wants to hear about how 4e is a sign of the apocalypse in this thread.

[Forbiddenwar]

That's risky. Especially since he's sold merchandise based on them, and that scene may be included in a book at some point.


I know. But dnd uses a distinctive character, who isn't especially similar to her mythological basis.


Yeah. He's been sneaky with her. It'd be surprising if she held too major a role. He's avoided breaching copyright before, with that mindflayer monster. Roleplaying her, as an enemy, would be likely to attract lawyers.

It's clear that you don't understand copyright law, which is meant to help people like Rich to create. In fact, everything Rich does is easily covered by Fair Use. Which is why a beholder and a mindflayer can appear and he can continue to sell books with their appearence. The laywers are a gag, one I enjoyed. Even if Tiamat is copyrighted (which is not) it can still appear in the comic, and Rich wouldn't have to pay WotC a cent for it. Rich isn't Copying the entire source book and posting it online, he is transforming the material into something new. He isn't hurting the market for D&D (in fact he is helping it - I think WotCs should be paying RICH) In that regard, even Bahamut and Farghlandan can appear and Open Game License be damned (you don't need permission to use and copy and sell materials if the law says you don't!)

I doubt also that the comic lawyers will appear to drag off Tiamat, they couldn't even handle a halfing ranger.

[Cleverdan22]

I like the idea of an angry Crystal ghost realizing that none of them, particularly Haley, can hear her. Good for a one or two-strip gag.

[Deuce]

I like the idea of Elan being much more bothered that Crystal's killing was very non-trope, without batting an eyelash at the good/evil part of the equation.

"Haley, you NEVER just up and kill your nemesis, you'll only wind up with a worse one."

[Random832]

She already has a worse one.

[David Argall]

Actually, I suspect the killing that's going to have serious repurcussions is the murder of 1/4 of the world's black dragons.

Tiamat is a Goddess of the West in this world, remember - right where they're heading.

The prime problem is how do you make a response that is neither going to squash the party like a bug nor going to be laughingly inadequate? No response at all seems better.

Nor is it likely that Kubota or Crystal will have any further impact on the story. They are dead and history.

[Haven]

I like the idea of Elan being much more bothered that Crystal's killing was very non-trope, without batting an eyelash at the good/evil part of the equation.

"Haley, you NEVER just up and kill your nemesis, you'll only wind up with a worse one."

I like to think Elan's genre savvy would extend to realizing what a complete non-entity the Thieves' Guild and its associates are. So Haley could spin it as a final climactic battle, and when Elan says it doesn't sound very dramatic she could point out that Crystal wasn't awesome enough to warrant a particularly dramatic fight.

And she certainly had better reasons for killing Crystal than "tied up and standing next to Elan".

Along those lines, Elan would probably be okay with it because it was preceded with the "Roland Itiative" pun. :p

[Boaromir]

Nor is it likely that Kubota or Crystal will have any further impact on the story. They are dead and history.


I find this to be the most likely. They were relevant to the story when the events happened, and aside from a few one-strip gags, wont get much more mentions.

[Olorin93]

Even if Tiamat is copyrighted (which is not) it can still appear in the comic, and Rich wouldn't have to pay WotC a cent for it. Rich isn't Copying the entire source book and posting it online, he is transforming the material into something new.

It's not only text that can be copyrighted, but also characters. I couldn't write and sell a book with, say, Elminster as a character, even if I didn't copy a single phrase from any of Ed Greenwood's works. An exception is made for satire and other forms of Fair Use, which Rich seems to keep safely within when he references non-SRD material, but if a main character like Xykon were an Illithyd rather than a Lich, he might be pushing it.

That said, yes, Tiamat is not only Older Than They Think, but Older Than Dirt (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OlderThanDirt).

[Morquard]

There's a difference between using names from a copyrighted book, that the author invented, and that are absolutely recognizeable in the copy, or using a name from ancient history, and it may resemble some character in another book.
As long as he doesn't go into too much detail, I don't think its a problem.

From the FAQ:

The Order of the Stick is a legitimate work of parody, and thus can make passing reference to copyrighted works for the purposes of satire without being a copyright violation (under the concept of .Fair Use.). Further, none of the terms referenced are actually copyrighted; no one can copyright the phrases .Spot check,. or .Will save,. for example. The exact mechanics of those checks within the context of the game, and specifically the text used to explain those mechanics, are copyrighted and can only be used within the confines of the Open Game License. But the words themselves are not, and I am careful not to describe how any of these mechanics work in the strip itself.
Mentioning a name like the mind flayer etc would be a passing reference and therefore OK.
And as he says, he's careful not to go into detail on how stuff works. If people assume a Fireball is the same as in DnD, well let them, he never said it is.

Same for Tiamat, you can't copyright the name, and as long as he doesn't copy the description from the MM or whereever she shows up, he's pretty safe.

But if you ask me, Belkar will meet them both in the evil afterlife and make them his minions :)

[Ancalagon]

That's risky. Especially since he's sold merchandise based on them, and that scene may be included in a book at some point.

Tiamat is like 5000 years older than the Wizards of the Coast. You cannot copyright that name and the concept of a multi-headed dragon (even as god) surely was not invented by the wizards.

They also cannot copyright "orc", "dragon", or "dungeon"...

[Ytaker]

Tiamat is like 5000 years older than the Wizards of the Coast. You cannot copyright that name and the concept of a multi-headed dragon (even as god) surely was not invented by the wizards.

They also cannot copyright "orc", "dragon", or "dungeon"...

Chromatic dragons aren't babylonian, the five headed thing is an innovation by dnd, her personality isn't that of the original goddess, the worship of her by kobolds and dragons isn't in dnd. She's a major character in books, in the monster manuals, in the tv series, and as such, there is a high probability that if he copied that version of Tiamat, then he'd be breaching some copyrights. As long as she's kept in the background, people can assume that she's completely different to the dnd one. If she's brought out...

[Murdim]

Chromatic dragons aren't babylonian, the five headed thing is an innovation by dnd, her personality isn't that of the original goddess, the worship of her by kobolds and dragons isn't in dnd. She's a major character in books, in the monster manuals, in the tv series, and as such, there is a high probability that if he copied that version of Tiamat, then he'd be breaching some copyrights. As long as she's kept in the background, people can assume that she's completely different to the dnd one. If she's brought out...Three words : Blond. Haired. Thor.


But if you ask me, Belkar will meet them both in the evil afterlife and make them his minions :)Well, it would be hard with Kubota since I don't think he was Chaotic Evil... more somewhere between Lawful and Neutral Evil.

[Angelus-alvus]

wasn't Tiamat a male in the cartoon Dungeons and Dragons? Just a random thought here.
BTW, as far as I know you can't copyright mithology. Even if Rich could be sued, he could simply modify it a little. One extra head or change the colours of them. Suing Rich for that it would be the same thing as suing every Japanese action cartoon. They ALL follow the same formula. So they would have to pay copyright to the first guy who created it.

[Optimystik]

wasn't Tiamat a male in the cartoon Dungeons and Dragons? Just a random thought here.

No, she was a she in that series (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungeons_&_Dragons_(TV_series)) as well. Making Tiamat male would change the functional identity of the character, rather like... making Thor female.

[hamishspence]

It's not only text that can be copyrighted, but also characters. I couldn't write and sell a book with, say, Elminster as a character, even if I didn't copy a single phrase from any of Ed Greenwood's works. An exception is made for satire and other forms of Fair Use, which Rich seems to keep safely within when he references non-SRD material, but if a main character like Xykon were an Illithyd rather than a Lich, he might be pushing it.

That said, yes, Tiamat is not only Older Than They Think, but Older Than Dirt (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OlderThanDirt).

yes- and no. Lots of writers do, in fact, use Elminster other than Ed Greenwood. Maybe its a case of "Expanded Universe" with the right agreement, you can use other people's invented characters.

[Angelus-alvus]

No, she was a she in that series (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungeons_&_Dragons_(TV_series)) as well. Making Tiamat male would change the functional identity of the character, rather like... making Thor female.
Funny. In my country she was dubbed by a guy.

[dps]

The prime problem is how do you make a response that is neither going to squash the party like a bug nor going to be laughingly inadequate? No response at all seems better.

Nor is it likely that Kubota or Crystal will have any further impact on the story. They are dead and history.

I agree that Kubota isn't going to appear again, and I doubt that Crystal does unless for some reason the Thieves Guild shows up again (and even then, Bozzak might not have had her raised), but I think that the manner in which Kubota was killed will continue to have an affect on the relationship between V and Elan.

[yanmaodao]

The prime problem is how do you make a response that is neither going to squash the party like a bug nor going to be laughingly inadequate? No response at all seems better.

Nor is it likely that Kubota or Crystal will have any further impact on the story. They are dead and history.

The Gods, remember, cannot intervene directly in the world. Certainly, though, Tiamat would have other ways at getting at the Order, or V specifically - clerics, a draconic cult or two, etc.

[Timberboar]

They refused to allow Margerat Weiss to write the final Dragonlance book, instead pasing it off to another author.

Lies. That mess got sorted out MONTHS ago. I think MW was just pissed that her license got yanked out from under her and decided to stir the pot, personally.

[waterpenguin43]

It's clear that you don't understand copyright law, which is meant to help people like Rich to create. In fact, everything Rich does is easily covered by Fair Use. Which is why a beholder and a mindflayer can appear and he can continue to sell books with their appearence. The laywers are a gag, one I enjoyed. Even if Tiamat is copyrighted (which is not) it can still appear in the comic, and Rich wouldn't have to pay WotC a cent for it. Rich isn't Copying the entire source book and posting it online, he is transforming the material into something new. He isn't hurting the market for D&D (in fact he is helping it - I think WotCs should be paying RICH) In that regard, even Bahamut and Farghlandan can appear and Open Game License be damned (you don't need permission to use and copy and sell materials if the law says you don't!)

I doubt also that the comic lawyers will appear to drag off Tiamat, they couldn't even handle a halfing ranger.
Rich is part of the DnD crew anyway. He wrote Dungeonscape(and very well too, I might add) so I think he has access to it.(As well as Tiamat being part of mythology as well).

[David Argall]

The Gods, remember, cannot intervene directly in the world. Certainly, though, Tiamat would have other ways at getting at the Order, or V specifically - clerics, a draconic cult or two, etc.

That is not the point. We have, say, 100 dead dragons. So the routine response is to send 200 dragons after V, which would convert V, OOTS, and everything for a mile around, into acidic goo in one round. Dull, among other things.
But what lesser response makes much sense? Dramatic sense in particular. Challenges are supposed to get tougher. You beat King Kong and the one seeking revenge is an organ grinder monkey?
So no, the event will not see any revenge coming after V. We have had Ma coming out to seek revenge and that will be about it for revenge motiffs.

[NovaSeaker]

The fact that OOTS Tiamat is clearly in a Babylonian Pantheon makes any appearance by her pretty safe. See the crayon sections of the story where we see a four-armed, four-eyed god. This is Marduke. Marduke is Tiamat's opposing force in Babylonian myth.

Regardless of her appearing as the five-headed dragon-god of core DnD, this is Babylonian Tiamat.

[Olorin93]

yes- and no. Lots of writers do, in fact, use Elminster other than Ed Greenwood. Maybe its a case of "Expanded Universe" with the right agreement, you can use other people's invented characters.

Yes, I picked a bad example, since anyone authorized by WotC to write in the Forgotten Realms can use Elminster. Substitute "Gandalf" and "Tolkein's Estate" or "Dumbledore" and "J.K. Rowling". Now, obviously one can have similar characters....

[Optimystik]

Yes, I picked a bad example, since anyone authorized by WotC to write in the Forgotten Realms can use Elminster. Substitute "Gandalf" and "Tolkein's Estate" or "Dumbledore" and "J.K. Rowling". Now, obviously one can have similar characters....

Any other senex you want to cram into that post? :smallamused:

[veti]

We have, say, 100 dead dragons. So the routine response is to send 200 dragons after V, which would convert V, OOTS, and everything for a mile around, into acidic goo in one round. Dull, among other things.

"Send 200 dragons"? Can you even begin to imagine what would be involved in getting 200 Chaotic-aligned dragons to be in the same place at the same time, much less actually work together? Hardly a "routine" response there.


But what lesser response makes much sense? Dramatic sense in particular. Challenges are supposed to get tougher. You beat King Kong and the one seeking revenge is an organ grinder monkey?
So no, the event will not see any revenge coming after V. We have had Ma coming out to seek revenge and that will be about it for revenge motiffs.

This I agree with. There will be repercussions, sure, but not the straightforward revenge-seeking type. If Tiamat can be bothered to get back at V, she'll try to make it look like karma rather than direct intervention.

For example: Maybe someone collected the loot from half a dozen ex-black-dragons, and used it to establish something that becomes a deadly obstacle for our heroes. Or maybe there's a whole new order of paladins on the Western continent whose sages detected the casting of Epic-level necromancy. The possibilities are endless...

[hamishspence]

yes- in Faerun we have "Flights of Dragons" and the even greater "Rage of Dragons", but they only happen every few centuries, and aren't natural- the influence of a powerful elven spell cast long ago that causes dragons (all, metallic, chromatic, the lot) to go mad regularly.

And in Prince of Lies, a fleet of white dragons descended on Zhentil Keep in revenge for the butchery and animation of one of their young.

So, CE dragons, given enough motivation, can group together.

[Olorin93]

Three words : Blond. Haired. Thor.

Good point! :smalleek: That right there should be sufficient evidence that we can't completely extend real-world characteristics of these deities into the OotS-verse (but it won't stop me from trying, as a first approximation). :smallsmile:

[waterpenguin43]

Haley is Haley, but putting her in the "Evil" bag with NE Vaarsuvius and CE Belkar is quite... exaggerated. The Belkster devotes his entire life to the slaughter of sentient beings because it's funny and it makes himself feeling strong and great. V kills an unknown man just because he's tied-up and s/he doesn't want to waste time with a new trial, and then raise a vanquished enemy as a sentient undead, just to make him see everything as s/he kills her whole family as a "preventive retribution". Haley murdered her long-time nemesis, a thoroughly evil assassin who just tried to kill her, in order not to have her trying it again while she's on her quest to save the world (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WhatDoYouMeanItsNotHeinous) (she could have given 50% of the money she acquired to the evil leader of the evil Thieves' guild to be fixed with them, money she needs to free his Good-aligned father from an Evil Overlord, but that would fall into Stupid Good (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LawfulStupidChaoticStupid))

Anyway, considering V even, to have been NE at the time is a bit of a stretch. I mean, sure he just killed Kubota, sure he didn't even know him, but V must of heard that he was corrupt (even without him knowing why) and she had to proceed to continue his search. So even if his methods were a little bit depraved, he wasn't really evil. And with the dragon bit: V said it himself that it was so the feud woudn't continue and anyone that might want to avenge that black dragon would be out of the way, besides he DID have three evil spirits clinging on too his soul, so that is to be expected somewhat.

[Doug Lampert]

Anyway, considering V even, to have been NE at the time is a bit of a stretch. I mean, sure he just killed Kubota, sure he didn't even know him, but V must of heard that he was corrupt (even without him knowing why)
He told us what he knew about Kubata's corruption and evil. Elan had Kubota tied up.

That's it.

That was the entire and complete extent of his evidence.


and she had to proceed to continue his search. So even if his methods were a little bit depraved, he wasn't really evil. And with the dragon bit: V said it himself that it was so the feud woudn't continue and anyone that might want to avenge that black dragon would be out of the way,

V killed all blood relatives of that black dragon. That's nice. There is EXACTLY ONE other living dragon we know that black dragon had good relations with, and that's her dead mate's brother, probably not a blood relative at all and DEFINITELY not a traceable blood relative since the ABD described their relationship and didn't mention any blood relationship.

V killed 1/4th of the black dragons in the world, and almost certainly MISSED the only one he had any reason at all to think might come for vengance.


besides he DID have three evil spirits clinging on too his soul, so that is to be expected somewhat.

And the IFCC tells us how much actual influence those souls had. Which is NONE AT ALL! It's all V. They just wanted him to think there might be alignment effects so he'd have an excuse and go overboard.

A plan which appears to have worked.

[Kaytara]

Guys, could we please stop hijacking every thread where Kubota's death was mentioned to discuss what it means for V and his alignment? I mean, I actually like discussing Vaarsuvius, and even I am really tired of it.

That the relationship between Elan and V will be strained from now on is almost certain. I'm more curious about whether Hinjo's lot will be confronting V for the Kubota incident. I'd say no, because if they do, it'd be logical for it to happen right now, while they're all still together, and the dramatic timing doesn't seem right for that. Unless it's addressed but quickly resolved with some smooth talking. I could imagine that Hinjo would confront V but let it slide solely because V teleported the fleet.

As for Crystal... Well, Bozzok did drop a hint of being involved in Ian's abduction. And he's still alive. And Haley is now on the Western Continent, near to where her father is being held. After all of this is eventually resolved, I can see her coming back to confront the thieves one last time.

Somehow I doubt there will be serious karmic repercussions for her. Storytelling-wise, Crystal has been shown to be extremely unpleasant, evil and cruel through and through. The message is quite different to that of, say, Familicide, where we see eggs being killed by the spell, and to which the incarnations of evil respond with shock and surprise.

If anything, it may become yet another future conflict point for Celia and Haley. Not that we necessarily need more of those. :D

[Optimystik]

That the relationship between Elan and V will be strained from now on is almost certain.

Interesting point... weren't they left alone together while Haley ran off to kill Crystal? Maybe we'll get a bonus strip where they force small talk or something. :smalltongue:

[Kaytara]

Interesting point... weren't they left alone together while Haley ran off to kill Crystal? Maybe we'll get a bonus strip where they force small talk or something. :smalltongue:

Given that it seems that Celia stayed, I'd say it's more likely that Elan made small talk with the nice sylph rather than the scary elf who looks really annoyed, angry and impatient.

[waterpenguin43]

Well, Bozzok did drop a hint of being involved in Ian's abduction. :D

Wait, when was that? (Out of curiosity)

[Jaltum]

Not so much 'hinted' as 'stated openly and unambiguously':

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0609.html

[Kaytara]

Not so much 'hinted' as 'stated openly and unambiguously':

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0609.html

Yes, but the question is whether he really made all of that up to distract Haley or was telling the truth.

I'm betting on the latter, because it seems redundant otherwise.

Hmm, weird idea.. What if Crystal or someone else from the Guild takes the "trophy" she cut off Haley and uses it to influence Ian?

[Dark Faun]

That is a very interesting idea. I can see Bozzok doing it (because Crystal just isn't smart enough to try to influence anybody), though I can't see him going to the Western Continent...

[Xapi]

Rich is part of the DnD crew anyway. He wrote Dungeonscape(and very well too, I might add) so I think he has access to it.(As well as Tiamat being part of mythology as well).

Just a nitpick, when you write something for a company, as this was the case, you don't own that copyright.

Rich can't have acces to it, because he sold his work in that book to WotC (the publisher, I presume).

[Optimystik]

That is not the point. We have, say, 100 dead dragons. So the routine response is to send 200 dragons after V, which would convert V, OOTS, and everything for a mile around, into acidic goo in one round. Dull, among other things.
But what lesser response makes much sense? Dramatic sense in particular. Challenges are supposed to get tougher. You beat King Kong and the one seeking revenge is an organ grinder monkey?
So no, the event will not see any revenge coming after V. We have had Ma coming out to seek revenge and that will be about it for revenge motiffs.

I daresay you're in for a surprise, sir. :smallsigh: