[4e] Primary stats by Class Role

[Draz74]

Will people who know the 4e PHB2 better than me please complete/correct this chart?

For purposes of this discussion, a stat is a class's "primary stat" only if the class includes a large number of powers whose attack rolls are modified by that stat. For example, Intelligence is of course very important to a TacLord, but IIRC there aren't very many attack rolls that it actually modifies. So for these purposes, I'm treating it as a secondary stat.

Defender
STR: 3 (Fighter, Paladin, Warden)
CON: 0
DEX: 0
INT: 1 (Swordmage)
WIS: 0
CHA: 1 (Paladin)

Striker
STR: 2 (Barbarian, Ranger)
CON: 1 (Warlock)
DEX: 3 (Ranger, Rogue, Monk)
INT: 0
WIS: 1 (Avenger)
CHA: 2 (Warlock, Sorcerer)

Leader
STR: 2 (Cleric, Warlord)
CON: 0
DEX: 0
INT: 1 (Artificer)
WIS: 2 (Cleric, Shaman)
CHA: 1 (Bard)

Controller
STR: 0
CON: 0
DEX: 0
INT: 1 (Wizard)
WIS: 2 (Druid, Invoker)
CHA: 0

[Shadow_Elf]

Avengers (Striker) use WIS to attack, Barbarians (Striker) use STR to attack, Bards (Leader) use CHA to attack, Druids (Controller) use WIS to attack, Invokers (Controller) use WIS to attack, Shamans (Leader) use WIS to attack, Sorcerers (Striker) use CHA to attack and Wardens (Defender) use STR to attack.

Hope that helps.

[Draz74]

D'oh, I completely forgot the Barbarian existed somehow. :smallredface: Thanks for the info.

OK ... so Cleric, Paladin, Warlock, and Ranger are the only classes that really have a choice about what their primary attack stat is?

The goal here, incidentally, insomuch as their is a goal, is to study the relative importance of the stats in 4e. Particularly to figure out if any generalizations such as "Strength is the least role-specific stat" or "Dex is for Strikers" are reasonably accurate.

[erikun]

You still have Avenger as DEX, not WIS like it should be. :smalltongue:

I should probably point out that primary stats usually depend on the power source, not the party role. All Martial characters are STR or DEX, all Arcane are INT or CHA (exception: some Warlock powers). All Primal are STR or WIS, and all Divine are WIS or CHA (exception: some Paladin, some Cleric). This makes me wonder what Psionics will be, as we honestly have too many WIS classes already. :smallannoyed:

The Monk is WIS primary, STR/DEX secondary, by the way.

And yes, you are right. Cleric, Paladin, Warlock, and Ranger are the only classes who get to choose which stat to use as primary. I should also point out that STR Clerics and STR Paladins are frequently outclassed by their WIS/CHA variants.

[Sir Homeslice]

The Monk is WIS primary, STR/DEX secondary, by the way.

Dex primary, Wis or Str secondary.

[Mando Knight]

And yes, you are right. Cleric, Paladin, Warlock, and Ranger are the only classes who get to choose which stat to use as primary. I should also point out that STR Clerics and STR Paladins are frequently outclassed by their WIS/CHA variants.

With a few exceptions: Strength Paladins gain access to at-will radiant damage, an at-will accuracy attack that deals full standard damage, and a Paragon Path that turns a Paladin into a duelist beyond reckoning. (Champion of Order's Encounter attack power allows the Paladin to make a highly accurate, low damage attack that shuts down a single foe for as long as the mark placed on it remains. Divine Challenge lasts until the Paladin chooses to release the mark.)

They also gain vs. Will Weapon attacks (the Cha-din does as well, though), and a higher number of Radiant Weapon attacks (which synergizes better with Holy Avenger).

[Tengu_temp]

Strength-based paladins are much worse at tanking than charisma ones, but man do they pack a punch. Not as much as pure strikers, of course, but they're much more sturdy and have some limited healing capabilities on top of that - probably the closest 4e has to a universal character, apart from avengers and some warlords.

[ghost_warlock]

Strength-based paladins are much worse at tanking than charisma ones, but man do they pack a punch. Not as much as pure strikers, of course, but they're much more sturdy and have some limited healing capabilities on top of that - probably the closest 4e has to a universal character, apart from avengers and some warlords.

And warlocks. Vestige pact has a distinct leader-flavor (can't remember if they actually get healing, but it wouldn't surprise me to find they do). Fey or star pact for controlling. And most of us have heard of the hexhammer defender build (although, that's technically multiclass).

[Tengu_temp]

I meant a single universal build - different warlock builds have different focuses and the class overall is very versatile, but separate builds? Not so much.

[Draz74]

You still have Avenger as DEX, not WIS like it should be. :smalltongue:
Whoops. Fixed.


I should probably point out that primary stats usually depend on the power source, not the party role. All Martial characters are STR or DEX, all Arcane are INT or CHA (exception: some Warlock powers). All Primal are STR or WIS, and all Divine are WIS or CHA (exception: some Paladin, some Cleric).
That's a lot of exceptions. :smalltongue: But yeah, that correlation is probably stronger than the Role correlation. But less interesting, I think.


This makes me wonder what Psionics will be, as we honestly have too many WIS classes already. :smallannoyed:
A lot of INT, I'd imagine. But I'm afraid you should get ready for some WIS basis, too. Judging by the Monk being Psionic.


The Monk is WIS primary, STR/DEX secondary, by the way.
Do we know which of those three will be used for attack rolls, though?

[Colmarr]

That's a lot of exceptions. :smalltongue: But yeah, that correlation is probably stronger than the Role correlation.

I think this is in large part due to the V-frame design that some classes (Cleric, Paladin, Warlock) in PH1 have. Under the V-frame design, there are two competing primary abilities, but only one secondary ability.

eg. Cleric has Strength and Wisdom as primary, and only Charisma as secondary.

In contrast, I'm not aware of any V-frame classes in PH2. They're all A-frame (one primary ability, two secondary abilities).

If I remember correctly, Mike Mearls has been quoted as saying that the designers have intentionally moved away from V-frame classes because they don't think it works.

[Thajocoth]

Do we know which of those three will be used for attack rolls, though?

Yes. Dex. Monks attack with Dex.

[Draz74]

Yes. Dex. Monks attack with Dex.

OK, updated. And quite supportive of the "DEX is a Striker stat" generality.

[Gralamin]

I think this is in large part due to the V-frame design that some classes (Cleric, Paladin, Warlock) in PH1 have. Under the V-frame design, there are two competing primary abilities, but only one secondary ability.

eg. Cleric has Strength and Wisdom as primary, and only Charisma as secondary.

In contrast, I'm not aware of any V-frame classes in PH2. They're all A-frame (one primary ability, two secondary abilities).

If I remember correctly, Mike Mearls has been quoted as saying that the designers have intentionally moved away from V-frame classes because they don't think it works.

Having Homebrewed Classes before, I'd say A-Frame works a lot better then V-Frame.

[erikun]

Well, A-Frame will limit all classes to having at least one similar ability score. (All bards have high CHA.) Conversely, while V-Frame gives you more options in your stats, it cuts off half your available powers unless you invest in both primary stats. :smallmad: An INT/CON Warlock basically doesn't have access to half their class powers, and Starlocks just cry themselves to sleep at night. Or would, if they didn't have stuff like Tendrils of Thuban. :smallamused:

That said, I'm surprised to see DEX as the Monk's attack stat. I would have thought Psionics would use CON, INT, or WIS as it's power stats. Then again, I am rather old-school. :smallbiggrin: (CON, INT, and WIS were the three stats that Psionics relied on in 2nd edition.) I'm hoping that 4e Psionics are DEX and CON, or some mix of DEX, CON, and INT. There honestly isn't enough CON classes out there, and Psionics are an easy fit.

....I think I'm rambling off-topic now. Sorry.

[Kurald Galain]

OK ... so Cleric, Paladin, Warlock, and Ranger are the only classes that really have a choice about what their primary attack stat is?

Yes. Turns out this wasn't such a great game mechanic. If you play a paladin, you can try to keep three scores maxxed out, which is difficult. Instead, if you pick str or cha, you will find that about half the paladin's powers are not going to work for you, and this gets worse at higher levels as the difference increases. 4E builds are narrow enough already without that.

Wizard? Gets 4 powers per level, take your pick. Fighter? Also gets 4. Wis-based cleric? Oops, you get only two. Enjoy.

[NPCMook]

Yes. Turns out this wasn't such a great game mechanic. If you play a paladin, you can try to keep three scores maxxed out, which is difficult. Instead, if you pick str or cha, you will find that about half the paladin's powers are not going to work for you, and this gets worse at higher levels as the difference increases. 4E builds are narrow enough already without that.

Wizard? Gets 4 powers per level, take your pick. Fighter? Also gets 4. Wis-based cleric? Oops, you get only two. Enjoy.

Yes, but all the cleric Paragon Paths are Wisdom based, thus making a Str Cleric kind of screwed when it comes to Paragon.

[Tengu_temp]

Yes, but all the cleric Paragon Paths are Wisdom based, thus making a Str Cleric kind of screwed when it comes to Paragon.

Angelic Avenger has one power based on wisdom and another based on strength. That's pretty weird - but cleric is the weirdest V-path class from them all, because not only your primary, but also your secondary stat depends on what build do you choose.

[Thajocoth]

Same thing, but by power source:

Martial
STR: 3 (Fighter, Warlord, Ranger)
CON: 0
DEX: 2 (Ranger, Rogue)
INT: 0
WIS: 0
CHA: 0

Arcane
STR: 0
CON: 1 (Warlock)
DEX: 0
INT: 3 (Wizard, Artificer, Swordmage)
WIS: 0
CHA: 3 (Warlock, Sorcerer, Bard)

Divine
STR: 2 (Cleric, Paladin)
CON: 0
DEX: 0
INT: 0
WIS: 3 (Cleric, Invoker, Avenger)
CHA: 1 (Paladin)

Primal
STR: 2 (Barbarian, Warden)
CON: 0
DEX: 0
INT: 0
WIS: 2 (Druid, Shaman)
CHA: 0

Psionic
STR: 0
CON: 0
DEX: 1 (Monk)
INT: 0
WIS: 0
CHA: 0

[Artanis]

One thing I see when I look at the power sources is tendancies that include the secondary stats.

*Every Martial class uses STR in some major way: Primary for Fighters, Warlords, and Rangers; secondary for Rogues.

*Every Divine class uses WIS in some major way: Primary for everybody except Paladins, who have it as a secondary.

*Almost every Arcane class uses INT in some major way: Primary for Wizards, Swordmages, and Artificers; Secondary for Bards and Warlocks.

*Almost every Primal class uses WIS in some major way: Primary for Druids and Shamans, secondary for Wardens.

So I suspect that Psionics is going to have a stat that virtually everything makes some sort of significant use of. The leading candidate seems to be WIS, but for all we know the Monk might be like the Barbarian and Sorcerer in being the odd one out for their power source.

[Yakk]

I'd bet Con for Psionics.

Then Cha or Dex for Shadow. Dex.

And the next power source might be Cha!

I hope it isn't wisdom -- we already have 2 wisdom based power sources.

[Colmarr]

Yes. Turns out this wasn't such a great game mechanic. If you play a paladin, you can try to keep three scores maxxed out, which is difficult. Instead, if you pick str or cha, you will find that about half the paladin's powers are not going to work for you, and this gets worse at higher levels as the difference increases. 4E builds are narrow enough already without that.

Wizard? Gets 4 powers per level, take your pick. Fighter? Also gets 4. Wis-based cleric? Oops, you get only two. Enjoy.

I don't think there's anything wrong with V-frame classes in theory. Unfortunately, in practice the designers presumably have neither the time nor the budget to design the full catalogue of options (eg. 4 powers per level) for each build.


Yes, but all the cleric Paragon Paths are Wisdom based, thus making a Str Cleric kind of screwed when it comes to Paragon.

Something my battle cleric has already discovered. I hold a glimmer of hope that Divine Power will address this. Otherwise, fighter multiclass PP here I come...

[Draz74]

I don't see why V-frame classes don't just focus on both of their primary attributes, thereby gaining a full suite of 4 Power options at each level. If their secondary stat isn't used for attack rolls, then who cares whether it gets advanced at every opportunity?

I guess Clerics and Paladins kinda need to pick a single primary stat to focus on because they need to focus on either an implement or a weapon. Ditto for Rangers who pick either Str or Dex because they don't think they'll be able to afford both a high-quality magic melee weapon and bow at higher levels. But that's not an inherent problem with V-frame class design. Future V-classes wouldn't have to have the weapon/implement split.

Without that split, wouldn't it be perfectly reasonable for the Ranger to focus on Strength and Dexterity, and just either avoid Wisdom-dependent Powers, or just accept that they'll only get a +3 bonus or something from their wisdom? And do StarLocks really cry if they have to focus on both CON and CHA, and only get a small bonus from their powers that have INT-based side effects?

[erikun]

Some do. For example, STR-Paladins frequently focus on STR/CHA, so that their Divine Challange is actually meaningful.

On the other hand, having a low WIS (and never boosting it) keeps some of his class features weak, such as only having 1-2 used of Lay on Hands for his entire career. Other attacks, such as Fearsome Smite/Radiant Smite, are rather unimpressive with a WIS 12. Heck, most Paladins are better with powers from the Cleric (Consecrated Ground) or Sorcerer (Platinum Scales) than with their own powers, if they have low WIS.

Warlocks would basically have no added effects with INT 10, and they don't have the heavy armor to make up for the otherwise low AC bonus from their stats. While the V-Frame looks like a good idea initially, it doesn't seem to work very well in practice.

[Draz74]

Well, just because a stat isn't one of the two you boost every few levels doesn't mean you can't have it decently high, i.e. by starting out with it at at least 14. Though I can see why, in the long run, the Warlock who doesn't boost INT would have a problem with AC.

[Kletian999]

Well, just because a stat isn't one of the two you boost every few levels doesn't mean you can't have it decently high, i.e. by starting out with it at at least 14. Though I can see why, in the long run, the Warlock who doesn't boost INT would have a problem with AC.

The difference between pushing or reducing defenses by 2 compared to 8 is pretty large.

[Draz74]

The difference between pushing or reducing defenses by 2 compared to 8 is pretty large.

Huh? I don't understand what this is responding to. I already acknowledged that StarLocks can have trouble with V-frame builds because they need to keep up their AC somehow ...

[Kletian999]

Huh? I don't understand what this is responding to. I already acknowledged that StarLocks can have trouble with V-frame builds because they need to keep up their AC somehow ...

I'm saying it's more than just AC, it's having many power have little to no secondary effects.