PDA

View Full Version : Gnomes and Halflings



Weimann
2009-06-30, 08:14 AM
I just rolled me first DnD character. I was supposed to play a short adventure over MSN, but it got delayed and then summer attacked. Therefore, I have some more time to consider the stats, and I have a few questions about race in particular.

Here are the stats of my character:Character Name: Wanda Edgeflower
Gender: Female
Age: 21 (Adult)
Height: 2' 8'' (81.28 cm)
Weight: 25 lbs (~12 kg)
Race: Halfling
Size: Small
Class and level: Bard 1
Alignment: Chaotic Good
Religion/Patron Deity: Fahrlanghn

Strength: 9 (-1)
Dexterity: 15 (+2)
Constitution: 8 (-1)
Intelligence: 15 (+2)
Wisdom: 8 (-1)
Charisma: 17 (+3)

Feats:
Extra Music: 4 more uses of Bardic Music per day.

Known Spells:
Dancing Lights
Ghost Sound
Prestidigitation
Detect Magic

SKills:
Diplomacy (Cha): 7 (4+3+3)
Bluff (Cha): 7 (4+3+0)
Perform (string instrument) (Cha): 7 (4+3+0)
Gather Information (Cha): 7 (4+3+0)
Use Magic Device (Cha): 7 (4+3+0)
Sleight of Hand* (Dex): 6 (4+2+0)
Spellcraft (Int): 6 (4+2+0)
Move Silently* (Dex): 6 (2+2+2)
Hide* (Dex): 6 (0+2+4)
Climb* (Str): 1 (0-1+2)
Jump* (Str): 1 (0-1+2)
Listen (Wis): 1 (0-1+2)

* = Affected by Armor Check Penalty (0)

Saves:
Fortitude: 0 (0-1+0+1+0)
Reflex: 5 (2+2+0+1+0)
Will: 2 (2-1+0+1+0) (+2 to morale saves vs Fear)

Equipment:Weapons:

Unarmed Strike:
Attack Bonus: 0 Damage: 1d2-1 Critical: x2
Type: Bludgeoning
Range: Melee Weight: 0 lb
Note: Deals nonleathal damage.

Short Sword:
Attack Bonus: 0 Damage: 1d4-1 Critical: 19-20/x2
Type: Piercing
Range: Melee Weight: 1 lb
Note: Hangs in her belt.

Dagger:
Attack Bonus: 0 Damage: 1d3-1 Critical: 19-20/x2
Type: Piercing or slashing
Range: Melee/10 feet Weight: 0.5 lb
Note: +2 on Sleight of Hand checks to hide dagger on your person. Hidden in her right boot.

Whip:
Attack Bonus: 0 Damage: 1d2-1 Critical: x2
Type: Slashing
Range: Special Weight: 1 lb
Note: 15 foot reach weapon. May attack targets in melee range as well. Deals non-leathal damage.
No damage against body armour (of +1 or greater) or natural armour (of +3 or greater).
May be used in a trip attack. Hangs in her belt.

Darts:
Attack Bonus: +4 Damage: 1d2-1 Critical: x2
Type: Piercing
Range: 20 feet Weight: 0.25 lb (total weight: 10*(0.25) = 2.5 lbs)
Ammo: 10/10
Note: Kept in an easily accessible pocket on her backpack.

Sling:
Attack Bonus: +4 Damage: 1d3-1 Critical: x2
Type: Bludgeoning
Range: 20 feet Weight: 0 lb
Ammo: 10/10 (Weight: 2.5 lbs/10 bullets)
Note: The sling hangs on her backpack. The bullets are in a bullet pouch in her belt.

Armour:

Leather: +1 to Armour Class
Armour Check penalty: 0
Max Dexterity bonus: +6, Weight: 7.5 lbs

Other equipment:

Backpack:
Weight: 0.5 lb

Trail Rations
Amount: 1 day
Weight: 0.25 lb

Traveller's Outfit
Weight: 1.25 lbs

Entertainer's Outfit (pretty clothes)
Weight: 0.5 lb

Lute
Weight: 0.75 lb

Spell Component Pouch
Weight: 2 lbs

Small Steel Mirror
Weight: 0.5 lb

Bedroll
Weight: 1.25 lbs

Antitoxin
Amount: 2 vials
Weight: 0 lb
Note: +5 alchemical bonus to Fortitude saves against poison for 1 hour.

Money: 5 gp 8 spCarrying Capacity:
Light load: Less than or equal to 22.5 lbs
Medium load: 23 - 45 lbs
Heavy load: 45.5 - 67.5 lbs
Current load: 22.0 lbsI have an idea that Wanda is a curious person with people skills (Diplomacy, Bluff and Gather Information), the sneaky department (Hide, Move Silently and Sleight of Hand) and have a passion for music, entertainment and enjoying herself. She's curious and generally optimistic, but may be vain and attention seeking. She likes gems and jewelry and pretty clothes, but most of all she cherishes her freedom of thought and chance to do whatever she pleases. She's a seeker, a wanderer.

Now... I put her race as halfling, because I wanted her to be, well, short. However, I am not really clear on the difference between a halfling and a gnome other than the pure stats. The stats of the halfling is better than the gnome, but it'd be nice to know what differences the general gnome and the general halfling.

Any help is appreciated :)

Yuki Akuma
2009-06-30, 08:18 AM
...Okay.

So what are the questions?

Reaper_Monkey
2009-06-30, 08:19 AM
Okay... what are those questions then? Or are you just looking for optimisation of your current character via race?

Weimann
2009-06-30, 08:25 AM
Ah, pardon. The computer I'm at have a tendency to go back one page at random, thereby clearing my posting window. I posted the stats first and edited in the rest afterwards. It's all there now :)

Yuki Akuma
2009-06-30, 08:31 AM
Um. Well.

Culturally, Halflings are nomadic and personable, whereas Gnomes have permanent settlements and tend to be rather shy.

Gnomes are more innately magical than Halflings - in fact they're the most innately magical standard race. They're also sturdier than Halflings, and a little bit taller. Gnomes are inquisitive, and good craftsmen generally.

Halflings, meanwhile, are quicker than Gnomes, and are much more physically inclined. They do very well at ranged combat, especially with thrown weapons and slings. They're also 'luckier' than the other standard races.

Reaper_Monkey
2009-06-30, 08:34 AM
However, I am not really clear on the difference between a halfling and a gnome other than the pure stats. The stats of the halfling is better than the gnome, but it'd be nice to know what differences the general gnome and the general halfling.

Brief general personality differences, as that seems to be what your asking for (fluff rather than mechanics).

Gnomes adore animals, beautiful gems, and jokes of all kinds. Members of this race have a great sense of humor, and while they love puns, jokes, and games, they relish tricks—the more intricate the better. They apply the same dedication to more practical arts, such as engineering, as they do to their pranks. Gnomes are inquisitive. They love to find things out by personal experience. At times they’re even reckless. Their curiosity makes them skilled engineers, since they are always trying new ways to build things. Sometimes a gnome pulls a prank just to see how the people involved will react.

Halflings prefer trouble to boredom. They are notoriously curious. Relying on their ability to survive or escape danger, they demonstrate a daring that many larger people can’t match. Halflings clans are nomadic, wandering wherever circumstance and curiosity take them. Halflings enjoy wealth and the pleasure it can bring, and they tend to spend gold as quickly as they acquire it. Halflings are also famous collectors. While more orthodox halflings may collect weapons, books, or jewelry, some collect such objects as the hides of wild beasts—or even the beasts themselves. Wealthy halflings sometimes commission adventurers to retrieve exotic items to complete their collections.

bosssmiley
2009-06-30, 08:43 AM
Now... I put her race as halfling, because I wanted her to be, well, short. However, I am not really clear on the difference between a halfling and a gnome other than the pure stats. The stats of the halfling is better than the gnome, but it'd be nice to know what differences the general gnome and the general halfling.

Any help is appreciated :)

Halflings: Hobbits from LOTR, or midget versions of the Pikeys from Snatch (as your DM prefers). Bonuses to Saves.
Gnomes: David the Gnome or the Bobobobs, only a bit taller. Talk to badgers, couple of low-power illusion abilities.

The two races of burrow-dwelling vermin really aren't all that different (mechanically, thematically or in recommended classes - rogues + casters); that's why 4E dumped the gnome as a Core race.

The Gilded Duke
2009-06-30, 10:37 AM
Halflings are dinosaur riding cowboys and mobsters.
Gnomes are knowledge loving fascists with secret police.

ericgrau
2009-06-30, 11:10 AM
Make sure you read the skill rules so you know what to do with all those skills. It may help to look at the DCs, figure out what you want to do, and pick enough skill ranks to succeed on the DCs that you want. Remember there are no natural 1's or natural 20's on skill checks. Many allow taking 10's on your rolls (instead of rolling) as long as you're not threatened or distracted. Typically that means outside of combat, which is when you use most of your skills anyway. Since you're a level 1 character, it may be hard to do everything right now. But you can try to get the basic DCs and go for the better ones in the future. If you can't make a DC at all, it might be better to leave 1 or no ranks in a skill and get that skill later. For example if a DC is 15 and you know you can always do it when you're not threatened (so you take a 10 instead of rolling), you might only want a +5 in that skill until you can succeed at higher DCs.

Weimann
2009-06-30, 11:24 AM
Thanks for your comments :)

I forgot to mention something rather important in my character description; she's supposed to have a fasination with magic. When she cast her first spell she was overwhelmed and for a period was completely obsessed with reading all there was about magic and magical creatures (I'm looking for a good way to get Knowlege (Arcana) in there).

From what I read, she might fit better as a halfling, since gnomes seem to be more wellversed in magic and have it come natural to them. Other than that, she seems a mix of both races, but based on what I read here, I think I'm keeping the halfling race. It generally has better stats,a nd would fit more with her fasination with the arcane arts.

riddles
2009-06-30, 12:16 PM
for god's sake man, get some constitution!

Devils_Advocate
2009-06-30, 05:36 PM
Speaking of typical members of both races and in contrast to humans...

Halflings love to play. Gnomes love to work. They're both short, cheerful, curious, and energetic, but the gnomes are geeks about it, whereas the halflings are more interested in outdoor physical activities. Gnomes want to learn about stuff in order to increase their understanding of the world and accomplish things in the long term. Halflings want to learn about things because they're interesting. They're drawn less to overarching abstract principles governing the multiverse and more to shiny objects.

Gnomes can be very social, but mostly with other gnomes. This is because other people generally don't know what the heck they're talking about. They'll engage in odd verbal behavior that only other gnomes really understand, like making an offhand mention of "the violence inherent in the system" and then laughing like this is a very funny joke. Gnomes also love puns, the more plausibly they could crop up in a normal conversation the better: To them, the joke is how ridiculously ambiguous Common (or some other language) is. The Gnome tongue tends to be fairly precise and generally speaking doesn't really allow for one phrase to have divergent meanings

Your character sounds more like a typical halfling than a typical gnome. She also sounds more Chaotic Neutral than Chaotic Good. (Good alignment suggests commitment to helping others. Devotion to one's personal enjoyment suggests Neutral alignment.)

herrhauptmann
2009-06-30, 05:59 PM
Did you use point buy?
Unless you're planning to be a petty thief as well, I recommend losing the sleight of hand, and dropping your int by 2. This way you can raise your Con by 2.
Lower Str and Dex by 1 each as well so that you can raise your Con by another 2. This will give you a bonus to your fort saves.

Your Cha is your top stat, keep that nice and high. But after that, select 1 stat to be almost as high. Then start assigning points to keep your stats evened out. You don't want stat penalties to your saves, especially at low level when you don't have any method to raise your weak saves up above 0.

Since you're trying to do so much with your skills, have you considered being a dual class 1st level character? Rules are in the Unearthed Arcana (or DMG, haven't read them in so long), you'll basically have most of the benefits of 1 of your classes, and a little of the benefits of your other class. At second level, you become a normal dual classed character (1 level in each).

Used this in a 1shot game several years ago. The paladin was trying to figure out why I was so good at fighting, AND had sneak attack.

Gnorman
2009-07-01, 04:30 AM
Easy answer:

Gnomes are awesome. Halflings are not.

Hard answer:

Gnomes are both practical people and practical jokers. They believe in things like art, literature, music, and haute culture. They are innately magical (as mentioned) but mainly put those talents towards illusory or deceitful ends. They are both the most preternaturally curious race and the most likely to pursue academic and trivial knowledge as a true profession. They make fantastic wizards, bards, and beguilers, as their inborn hardiness and magical nature lend themselves excellently to the roles. Gnomes are pranksters, swindlers, and thieves, but they have the good sense to convince other races that they are harmless, benign, or relatively well-meaning.

Halflings are kleptomaniac, pseudo-psychotic bunglers and burglars, with a bent towards larceny and petty theft. They are often fat and happy, with a marked weakness for luxury in both comestibles and quarters. The ideal halfling life is one of laziness and gluttony. Occasionally they ride dinosaurs.

Shouldn't be too hard to pick one. Gnomes are truly paragons, champions among their lessers. Halflings are sinful, indulgent little bastards.

Weimann
2009-07-01, 08:00 AM
Your character sounds more like a typical halfling than a typical gnome. She also sounds more Chaotic Neutral than Chaotic Good. (Good alignment suggests commitment to helping others. Devotion to one's personal enjoyment suggests Neutral alignment.)Good point. Alignment is something I gave a lot of thought to, and I did waver between Chaotic Good, Chaotic Neutral and True Neutral. She is commited to her own enjoyment, but it's not certain she'd abandon her friends just because she found something funnier to do. She might, but than again, she might not. It's still under evaluation, but in the end, I see alignment more as a guideline for me to work by to my best capacity and interpretation rather than a stat.
Did you use point buy?I didn't use point buy. Rather, I rolled 4d6, discarded the lowest, summed the remaining and repeated 6 times over, not in order, as described in the PHB. I did start out with a maxed money roll, however.

As for my character build, I know it's not optimal, but I kind of like it as it is. She's supposed to be a weak character: she has a penalty to her weapon damage, she has a low hit point total and she is bad at running for long. She's definately not supposed to be a brawler, mainly because I find great enjoyment in playing cowardly types :P I want her to require saving from time to time, so to speak.

Then again, her strengths would be her people skills, her spell casting and knowledge about spells, and her thiefly ways (in that order). In fact, I'm considering dropping Spellcraft for Knowledge (Arcana), partly because it's make more sense if she learnt Arcana from a book, rather than the seemingly pretty abstract art of Spellcraft, and also because the PrC Seeker of the Song requires 13 ranks in Knowledge (Arcana).
Gnomes are truly paragons, champions among their lessers. Halflings are sinful, indulgent little bastards.Sinful, indulgent, bastard. You sold me, halfling it is.

Devils_Advocate
2009-07-01, 02:04 PM
Notes on character sheet:

Your Diplomacy should be 7 (4+3+0), not 7 (4+3+3), not that it makes a difference. I'm guessing you thought that Move Silently is cross-class for Bards? Well, it isn't, so you still have 2 unassigned skill points. Leather armor give +2 to AC, not +1. I'll also note, in case you didn't already know, that the weight of clothes you're wearing doesn't add to your encumbrance.

Assuming that you've already applied racial modifiers to stats, you might want to consider swapping Strength and Constitution to give Wanda a Str of 6 and a Con of 11. Strength is a viable dump stat for a Bard, but Con isn't a particularly viable dump stat for anyone.

I wouldn't recommend losing Spellcraft for Knowledge (arcana) unless there's another caster in the party. Anyway, you have 2 skill points left, which is enough to be trained in both skills even if you max one out. Being trained in both will probably be useful.

You might want to consider choosing Perform (singing) instead of Perform (string instrument); singing is a popular music choice since it keeps your hands free and you don't need to carry any particular instrument. Then you can just use the summon instrument cantrip to get any instrument you need if there's ever a call to play one. (Like Swim, the Perform skill is inexplicably not restricted by lack of training.)


Good point. Alignment is something I gave a lot of thought to, and I did waver between Chaotic Good, Chaotic Neutral and True Neutral. She is commited to her own enjoyment, but it's not certain she'd abandon her friends just because she found something funnier to do. She might, but than again, she might not.
That's, um... not Good. Like, at all. "Neutral people are committed to others by personal relationships." Good indicates kindness towards strangers more than towards friends. Feeding the hungry, protecting the defenseless, healing the injured, stuff like that. This isn't any less true for Chaotic characters. It may have been that way in AD&D, but for 3E they rightly decided that that was dumb. In d20, a Chaotic Good character is typically concerned with liberating others.

Really, Good isn't the alignment that you're supposed to make your character. I think that they made this as clear as possible in the PHB, where every non-Evil alignment is "the best alignment you can be". So, you don't have to come up with phony justifications for saying that a character is Good. You're allowed -- and supposed -- to admit that she's Neutral. Really! It's OK! :smallsmile:

Weimann
2009-07-01, 02:55 PM
That's, um... not Good. Like, at all. "Neutral people are committed to others by personal relationships." Good indicates kindness towards strangers more than towards friends. Feeding the hungry, protecting the defenseless, healing the injured, stuff like that. This isn't any less true for Chaotic characters. It may have been that way in AD&D, but for 3E they rightly decided that that was dumb. In d20, a Chaotic Good character is typically concerned with liberating others.Again, good point :P I suppose she is rather Neutral in that respect. Chaotic Neutral would probably fit her better.

I've made some of the changes you sugessted there. Her waepon damage was already abysmal, so one lesser didn't make any difference in most cases. The carrying capacity needs to be recalculated, but I'll do that later. Since I'm at a public computer now, I'll just save it here in this spoiler right here.Character Name: Wanda Edgeflower
Gender: Female
Age: 21 (Adult)
Height: 2' 8'' (81.28 cm)
Weight: 25 lbs (~12 kg)
Race: Halfling
Size: Small
Class and level: Bard 1
Alignment: Chaotic Neutral
Religion/Patron Deity: Fahrlanghn

Strength: 6 (-2)
Dexterity: 15 (+2)
Constitution: 11 (0)
Intelligence: 15 (+2)
Wisdom: 8 (-1)
Charisma: 17 (+3)

Feats:
Extra Music: 4 more uses of Bardic Music per day.

Known Spells:
Dancing Lights
Ghost Sound
Prestidigitation
Detect Magic

SKills:
Perform (Sing) (Cha): 7 (4+3+0)
Diplomacy (Cha): 7 (4+3+0)
Bluff (Cha): 7 (4+3+0)
Gather Information (Cha): 7 (4+3+0)
Use Magic Device (Cha): 7 (4+3+0)
Sleight of Hand* (Dex): 6 (4+2+0)
Move Silently* (Dex): 6 (2+2+2)
Hide* (Dex): 6 (0+2+4)
Spellcraft (Int): 5 (3+2+0)
Knowledge (Arcana) (Int): 5 (3+2+0)
Listen (Wis): 1 (0-1+2)
Climb* (Str): 0 (0-2+2)
Jump* (Str): 0 (0-2+2)


* = Affected by Armor Check Penalty (0)

Saves:
Fortitude: 1 (0+0+0+1+0)
Reflex: 5 (2+2+0+1+0)
Will: 2 (2-1+0+1+0)
(+2 to morale saves vs Fear)

Equipment:Weapons:

Unarmed Strike:
Attack Bonus: 0 Damage: 1d2-2 Critical: x2
Type: Bludgeoning
Range: Melee Weight: 0 lb
Note: Deals nonleathal damage.

Short Sword:
Attack Bonus: 0 Damage: 1d4-2 Critical: 19-20/x2
Type: Piercing
Range: Melee Weight: 1 lb
Note: Hangs in her belt.

Dagger:
Attack Bonus: 0 Damage: 1d3-2 Critical: 19-20/x2
Type: Piercing or slashing
Range: Melee/10 feet Weight: 0.5 lb
Note: +2 on Sleight of Hand checks to hide dagger on your person. Hidden in her right boot.

Whip:
Attack Bonus: 0 Damage: 1d2-1 Critical: x2
Type: Slashing
Range: Special Weight: 1 lb
Note: 15 foot reach weapon. May attack targets in melee range as well. Deals non-leathal damage.
No damage against body armour (of +1 or greater) or natural armour (of +3 or greater).
May be used in a trip attack. Hangs in her belt.

Darts:
Attack Bonus: +4 Damage: 1d2-2 Critical: x2
Type: Piercing
Range: 20 feet Weight: 0.25 lb (total weight: 10*(0.25) = 2.5 lbs)
Ammo: 10/10
Note: Kept in an easily accessible pocket on her backpack.

Sling:
Attack Bonus: +4 Damage: 1d3-2 Critical: x2
Type: Bludgeoning
Range: 20 feet Weight: 0 lb
Ammo: 10/10 (Weight: 2.5 lbs/10 bullets)
Note: The sling hangs on her backpack. The bullets are in a bullet pouch in her belt.

Armour:

Leather: +2 to Armour Class
Armour Check penalty: 0
Max Dexterity bonus: +6, Weight: 7.5 lbs

Other equipment:

Backpack:
Weight: 0.5 lb

Trail Rations
Amount: 1 day
Weight: 0.25 lb

Traveller's Outfit
Weight: 1.25 lbs

Entertainer's Outfit (pretty clothes)
Weight: 0.5 lb

Lute
Weight: 0.75 lb

Spell Component Pouch
Weight: 2 lbs

Small Steel Mirror
Weight: 0.5 lb

Bedroll
Weight: 1.25 lbs

Antitoxin
Amount: 2 vials
Weight: 0 lb
Note: +5 alchemical bonus to Fortitude saves against poison for 1 hour.

Money: 5 gp 8 sp

Carrying Capacity:
Light load: Less than or equal to 22.5 lbs
Medium load: 23 - 45 lbs
Heavy load: 45.5 - 67.5 lbs
Current load: 22.0 lbs

Theolotus
2009-07-01, 05:04 PM
Halflings: Hobbits from LOTR, or midget versions of the Pikeys from Snatch (as your DM prefers). Bonuses to Saves.
Gnomes: David the Gnome or the Bobobobs, only a bit taller. Talk to badgers, couple of low-power illusion abilities.

The two races of burrow-dwelling vermin really aren't all that different (mechanically, thematically or in recommended classes - rogues + casters); that's why 4E dumped the gnome as a Core race.

I have to disagree whole heartedly. Granted, the difference between the races was mostly flavor. This does not mean they "aren't all that different". the same broad strokes could be applied to the differences between Islam and christianity, or Buddists and Hindu.

Similar ideas do not meant they are interchangable.

Mo_the_Hawked
2009-07-01, 06:13 PM
Easy answer:

Gnomes are awesome. Halflings are not.

I believe you have that backwords...:smalltongue:

Halfings have gotten a bad rep, they all arn't theives. They just excel at it.

Gnomes are annoying, with the constant practical jokes, the badger talking, the crappy illiusons and that gnome funk they got.

Haven
2009-07-01, 06:19 PM
Gnomes came up with giant space hamster wheels as an alternative to spelljamming helms for space travel.

Halflings...have hairy feet.

Just a thought.