[3.5] Who needs lichdom

[Irreverent Fool]

I was going through my Dragon magazines and came across a spell called Putrefaction in DR #300 p.56. This spell kills the target and animates its corpse as a zombie under the caster's command. It ALSO animates the soul as a ghost under the caster's command. It's a 9th-level corrupt spell, which means any sufficiently evil spellcaster who prepares spells can prepare and cast it.

I don't see anything here stopping a character from casting the spell on himself in order to become a ghost.

An arcane spellcaster is far better served by becoming a ghost than a liche. There's no phylactery to protect and you come back in an average of 5 days as opposed to a liche's average of 5.5! Another great thing? Double your equipment! When a ghost forms, he gains ethereal copies of every thing he possessed in life, but the physical objects remain! As if becoming a ghost wasn't enough, you have a physical representative you can boss around in the material world. Granted, it's just a regular zombie. But at least you have someone to move your stuff around without having to worry about manifesting!

So tell me, why would anyone go through the trouble of becoming a liche?

obnoxious
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[Indon]

Hmm... well, for a Sorceror, Ghost may well be better - while the Lich increases each caster stat by 2, Ghost increases Cha by 4.

Otherwise, Liches gain immunity to two elements, and polymorph and mind-affecting attacks. Also, Liches gain marginally better racial skill bonuses.

Also, you'd need to be a level 15 ghost to be able to guarantee your return using the DC 16 level check - the phylactery of a lich functions at any level.

[JeenLeen]

Liches have turn resistance. Also, if you factor LA into the calculations, Ghosts are +5, IIRC, with no turn resistance, and thus very suspectible to turning compared to liches.

But, overall, I could see being incorporeal and not dependent on a phylactery to be a good defense. It makes it hard to obtain new magical items, I suppose.

[Vexxation]

Also, you'd need to be a level 15 ghost to be able to guarantee your return using the DC 16 level check - the phylactery of a lich functions at any level.

Not a problem; It's a ninth-level spell. I'd like to see a caster below 15 manage to hit himself with it.

[Indon]

Not a problem; It's a ninth-level spell. I'd like to see a caster below 15 manage to hit himself with it.

I'm sure you could Xanatos Roulette an arrangement where another spellcaster zaps you with it right before he dies.

But anyway, that just helps to cement that particular point - Lich is availible before ghosthood becomes an option.

[Xenogears]

I'm sure you could Xanatos Roulette an arrangement where another spellcaster zaps you with it right before he dies.

But anyway, that just helps to cement that particular point - Lich is availible before ghosthood becomes an option.

But aren't liches all about the long haul anyways? So anyone with the mindset to become a lich wouldn't mind waiting a little longer to get a better body. And even if the ghost form isn't as good from a players perspective (due to LA) its probably a better option to a character in the world.

[Indon]

But aren't liches all about the long haul anyways? So anyone with the mindset to become a lich wouldn't mind waiting a little longer to get a better body. And even if the ghost form isn't as good from a players perspective (due to LA) its probably a better option to a character in the world.

Well, they're about avoiding death by old age. A wizard - at least, an NPC wizard - may or may not get to level 17 before that threatens them.

Edit: Oh, and Liches apparently don't lose existing special abilities, I dunno about ghosts but spellcasters in odd races might find that a factor.

[Irreverent Fool]

Hmm... well, for a Sorceror, Ghost may well be better - while the Lich increases each caster stat by 2, Ghost increases Cha by 4.

Otherwise, Liches gain immunity to two elements, and polymorph and mind-affecting attacks. Also, Liches gain marginally better racial skill bonuses.

Also, you'd need to be a level 15 ghost to be able to guarantee your return using the DC 16 level check - the phylactery of a lich functions at any level.

Unfortunately a Sorcerer can't prepare the spell. Corrupt spells can only be prepared by a character who can... well, prepare spells. Though a scroll of a 9th-level spell only costs 3,825g.

Ghosts are immune to many things due to their undead type. Additionally, they have the incoproreal advantages.


Liches have turn resistance. Also, if you factor LA into the calculations, Ghosts are +5, IIRC, with no turn resistance, and thus very suspectible to turning compared to liches.

But, overall, I could see being incorporeal and not dependent on a phylactery to be a good defense. It makes it hard to obtain new magical items, I suppose.

Ghosts have +4 turn resistance and only 1 more LA than a liche. Though it's very true that every LA counts.

I guess earlier access it the only reason to become a liche? Who knew!

obnoxious
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[hamishspence]

Which can be gained by one feat: Arcane Spell Preparation.

[dr.cello]

I only became a lich because I thought it said 'lichen' and I was really stoked about hanging out on trees and photosynthesizing.

Imagine my disappointment.

[Irreverent Fool]

Which can be gained by one feat: Arcane Spell Preparation.

A feat slot is a small price to pay for immortality!


I only became a lich because I thought it said 'lichen' and I was really stoked about hanging out on trees and photosynthesizing.

Imagine my disappointment.

I had the same problem with lycanthropes .

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[Indon]

Oh, also, the Lich's paralyzing touch is actually pretty potent.

[Irreverent Fool]

Oh, also, the Lich's paralyzing touch is actually pretty potent.

Frightful Moan and Malevolence aren't too shabby though.

obnoxious
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[Keld Denar]

It wouldn't be very hard for a caster to make the CL check needed to us a scroll as early as level 11 or so, around the time lichdom even becomes possible (ignoring WBL completely).

Buying a 9th level scroll is certainly much much MUCH cheaper than the rites required to become a Lich.

[dr.cello]

I feel like being incorporeal would be a bit of a disadvantage after a while. Especially since apparently if someone loots your body and takes the items you were carrying, you lose the ethereal version thereof.

I'd hate to be the ghost with all these awesome magic items that suddenly loses his powers when some random graverobbers take all my stuff and run off.

[kme]

Hm, if a ghost plane shifts back to material plane it seems he would be corporeal. I wonder what happens when he finds his original equipment while he is still carrying the copies on himself :smallcool:.

[Claudius Maximus]

Do ghosts always need to have a reason to exist? The SRD says that the only way to kill a ghost for sure is to "set right whatever prevents it from resting in peace". What would need to be done for an artificially created ghost?

[Wabbajack]

He wants to get revenge on his murderer?

[PId6]

He wants to get revenge on his murderer?
Which in this case, would be... himself...

[Rhawin]

Well the spell says that after the 'victim' dies, a Wish or Miracle can reverse its effects, so anyone who could discover what effect 'created' the ghost and has access to either spell can return you to a mortal state.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Ghosts are immune to many things due to their undead type. Additionally, they have the incoproreal advantages.
...So do liches.


Ghosts have +4 turn resistance and only 1 more LA than a liche. Though it's very true that every LA counts.
Two more. And every LA counting is doubled for spellcasters.


I guess earlier access it the only reason to become a liche? Who knew!

obnoxious
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Well, being able to affect the Material Plane 100% of the time is another bonus...

[Doc Roc]

I'm sure you could Xanatos Roulette an arrangement where another spellcaster zaps you with it right before he dies.

But anyway, that just helps to cement that particular point - Lich is availible before ghosthood becomes an option.

Dread necro 5/ Ur Priest 9
L14, 9th level divine spells. Allows me to do corrupts of 9th level. :: shrug :: whatever. It's dragon magazine content, which practically screams that it will be poorly written and poorly conceived.


...So do liches.


Liches are NOT incorporeal....

Where are you getting that LA counts double for casters?

[PId6]

...So do liches.

Two more. And every LA counting is doubled for spellcasters.

Well, being able to affect the Material Plane 100% of the time is another bonus...
Incorporeal is a pretty big advantage, and telekinesis at-will makes up for the disadvantages. Whenever threatened, ghosts can just demanifest back into the ethereal realm, making them pretty much invulnerable from almost everything, giving them the perfect getaway. And besides, a ghost always reappears 2d4 days after it's destroyed unless its reason for being a ghost is satisfied, so if their reason is to destroy all life, they're effectively immortal without having to worry about phylacteries.

[Teln]

I feel like being incorporeal would be a bit of a disadvantage after a while. Especially since apparently if someone loots your body and takes the items you were carrying, you lose the ethereal version thereof.

I'd hate to be the ghost with all these awesome magic items that suddenly loses his powers when some random graverobbers take all my stuff and run off.

Don't forget about the fact that Putrefaction turns the body of the target into a zombie. Under the caster's command.

[Zaq]

Where are you getting that LA counts double for casters?

It doesn't count double in the sense of "Template X costs 2 LA, or 4 for casters." It simply hurts double. Thou Shalt Not Lose Caster Levels and all that good stuff.

Anyway, my guess is that anyone who's willing to embrace undeath is probably terrified of dying for real (or at the very least justifiably paranoid about it), and it seems to me that they would feel like they have more control over their destiny when they get to make, enchant, and hide/defend their phylactery with their own power, rather than hoping that no one finds out their "reason for continued existence."

It might also be a style thing. Who among us can REALLY understand the motivations of a creature with incredible arcane power, inconceivably high mental stats, and the promise of potentially very real immortality?