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View Full Version : Nerfing ToB (Hear me Out)



Bracket
2009-06-30, 04:55 PM
First before I say anything, I want everyone to know that I know that the classes in Tome of Battle are not overpowered compared to classes like wizard and druid. So I never claimed that. Okay?

Okay, I'm DMing a campaign where the players are a fighter, wizard, barbarian, and warblade. I usually make changes in a game (Giving some more enemies SR, high saves, banning certain spells), so that casters aren't ridiculous in power. I usually only play core, but one of my friends got ToB and is playing the warblade. Since my changes, the wizard is roughly at the same level as the rogue and fighter, but now I'm noticing the warblade is outperforming the rest of the party.

So my question is: Is there any way to make changes to my enemies that would make the warblade perform at the same level as the rest of the party, or changes to the warblade class directly?

Thanks in advance
-Bracket

Animefunkmaster
2009-06-30, 04:57 PM
How is the warblade built? What type of weapons what type of maneuvers?

Bracket
2009-06-30, 05:12 PM
Oh right, I suppose that is relevant :smalltongue:

Basically he took monkey grip from... I forget what (we play mostly core, he has a lot of books though), so he has a 3d6 great axe, and he mostly uses stone dragon maneuvers. They're all level 5 right now.

InkEyes
2009-06-30, 05:15 PM
I'd say you should first try asking your players if they feel overshadowed by the Warblade. Then, offering them more options like expanding their feat/equipment selection beyond whatever they've got. Barbarians are probably right about on level with ToB classes and even well-built fighters aren't terrible compared to them, they just need lots of splatbooks. If you've exhausted all your options, then you might try nerfing, but really it'd be easier to politely ask him to build another fighter or something than digging through ToB and printing out a huge list of banned stances, maneuvers, feats, upping saves and whatnot for a single character in the party.

Again, ask your players first how they feel about their performance levels in comparison to the Warblade. They might be having fun despite not being the top damage-dealers/killing machines in the game.

Edit-

Oh right, I suppose that is relevant :smalltongue:

Basically he took monkey grip from... I forget what (we play mostly core, he has a lot of books though), so he has a 3d6 great axe, and he mostly uses stone dragon maneuvers. They're all level 5 right now.

Monkey Grip is actually a terrible feat because the damage output for it can be exceeded easily with a number of better feats, weapons and spells. If the warblade's only gimmick is dealing lots of damage and soaking it, then you might try putting him in a situation where he can't do either effectively. Flying enemies/ranged attackers are the ToB classes banes, and intelligent enemies will quickly figure out the Warblade is a bad choice to take on in comparison to the squishy wizard.

Sinfire Titan
2009-06-30, 05:17 PM
Oh right, I suppose that is relevant :smalltongue:

Basically he took monkey grip from... I forget what (we play mostly core, he has a lot of books though), so he has a 3d6 great axe, and he mostly uses stone dragon maneuvers. They're all level 5 right now.

There's your problem. He's level 5. Give the party 3 more levels, and you will notice his damage output will lag when he uses maneuvers.

Furthermore, a Wizard cannot be on the same level as a Rogue or a Fighter unless you've banned nearly half of the spells in the PHB. A simple Grease spell negates the fighter's class feature for 1 round/level, and a Blur spell negates the Rogue's Sneak Attack outright. With 2 spells (1st and 2nd level, respectively) the Wizard has the capability of shutting down both the Rogue and the Fighter. One spell if the Rogue didn't put ranks in Balance. This is the proverbial tip of the ice berg.

Yuki Akuma
2009-06-30, 05:17 PM
monkey grip

How on earth is he on par with a Fighter with that feat?

;)

Well, Stone Dragon simply focuses on overwhelming damage - and some defenses. So just send monsters with lots of HP.

Alternatively, he's taking a -2 penalty to attack rolls - make him fight stuff with higher ACs.

Tehnar
2009-06-30, 05:18 PM
The problem with warblades is that they recover their maneuvers in a fairly painless manner. So you could propose a change that it takes 1 full round action (during which they can't do anything else) for their recovery.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-06-30, 05:19 PM
Oh right, I suppose that is relevant :smalltongue:

Basically he took monkey grip from... I forget what (we play mostly core, he has a lot of books though), so he has a 3d6 great axe, and he mostly uses stone dragon maneuvers. They're all level 5 right now.

That doesn't seem too overpowered... in fact, that's about like being an Evoker Wizard... failing to utilize 90% of what you can do.

If Stone Dragon is out-performing a wizard, then most of the party is horridly sub-optimized, and that is the least of their problems...

About the best thing Stone Dragon can do is Shards of Granite to ignore DR and Hardness. Oh, and at end-game content, Tombstone Strike does 2d6 Con damage. But that's when the Wizard is tossing around Sudden Max Time Stop combos.

nysisobli
2009-06-30, 05:23 PM
Im tired of everyone saying the wizard is overpowered. Its only overpowered if you allow almost every sourcebook in existence, my players never have problems like this.

Eldariel
2009-06-30, 05:25 PM
Complete Warrior. And it sounds like he's just dealing a lot of damage. Really, much comes down to how the rest of the party is playing out. If the Fighter is Sword & Boarding/Two-Weapon Fighting, he's going to be comparatively behind. If he's two-handing and has Power Attack, he should be about the same as the Warblade.

Either way, the most natural ways to slightly weaken one-hit wonders (that is, characters that use single attacks as their primary style; next level Fighter will mostly be using full attacks with that iterative of his) is to have opponents with miss chances (Blink Dog, Displacer Beast, casters with access to the appropriate spells, Mirror Images [acquirable from items for melee types too], etc.), relatively high AC or counters against single attacks (such as Wall of Blades [Level 2 Iron Heart maneuver from ToB; use an attack roll as your AC for the next attack - other such things like Baffling Defense [use Sense Motive] exist) and so on.

One big thing to notice is that Warblades lack ranged capabilities (and Stone Dragon Warblade can't even use his maneuvers while flying) so throwing ranged/flying encounters at the PCs (even just a bunch of Goblins/Kobolds/Hobgoblins with bows behind walls/in some towers/such) definitely works out.


But he shouldn't need too much downtreading; he isn't the most powerful kind of Warblade anyways. Just make sure the Fighter gets his due in the feats (that's all a Fighter gets; make sure the ones he gets are decent) and that the Barbarian has a decent stat spread and Rages often (that's all he gets; you should probably suggest him Extra Rage [CWar] on those levels, which allows him to Rage 2 more times per day - Rage is again Barbarian's primary class feature so it needs to be around a lot) and that the Wizard knows what he's doing and you shouldn't really have balance problems.

The Wizard can really be the hardest, 'cause if he likes throwing Fireballs, there's really no way to make him stronger than what he is right now, meaning he might feel diminished if everyone else is doing more damage than he is. However, if he's a team player, it won't trouble him (and indeed, if he tosses Haste to that party, he'll be dealing a Fckton of damage). Really, the biggest problems in ToBbers is that they are "pre-optimized"; that is, you don't need to really do anything and they'll be good, while many other classes can range from "can't beat CR-1 encounter by themselves" to "can beat CR+2 encounter by themselves" depending on how they are built. That seems to be what's going on here; others just aren't built to the level the ToBber is.


nysisobli: Read the Core spell list.

chiasaur11
2009-06-30, 05:28 PM
Im tired of everyone saying the wizard is overpowered. Its only overpowered if you allow almost every sourcebook in existence, my players never have problems like this.

Actually, most wizard arguments focus on core. Where the wizard dominates handily, if he's prepared.

The thing about wizards is, you have to know what you're doing. If you point n blast, then you aren't going to be nearly as broken as a guy who enslaves whole planes through gaping holes in the logic of the rules.

InkEyes
2009-06-30, 05:29 PM
Im tired of everyone saying the wizard is overpowered. Its only overpowered if you allow almost every sourcebook in existence, my players never have problems like this.

Even with only the PHB in play the wizard still has access to absurd spells like timestop, gate, wish and shapechange. The power-level of all the core casters is exacerbated by adding in other sourcebooks, sure, but in some cases it's good; like all the good spells given to the ranger and paladin outside of core. It also depends on the game in question. I'm sure somewhere out there is a DM that loves playing with IotSFV Wizards and Planar Shepherd Druids.

But really, how is this relevant to nerfing ToB?

Keld Denar
2009-06-30, 05:30 PM
Im tired of everyone saying the wizard is overpowered. Its only overpowered if you allow almost every sourcebook in existence, my players never have problems like this.

And here we go again...

Want to have some fun with your Warblade? Give some ToB manuevers to their enemies. You don't even have to give them class levels. You are the DM. That Ogre can use Supreme Blade Parry once per encounter to counter the big Warblade's Ancient Tombstone, or that shifty kobald Countercharges his Warleaders Charge, or whatever.

The biggest part of including ToB in your game as a DM is to learn it. Figure out what some of the offense and defensive abilities are, and incorporate them into your game in minor ways like the above examples. ToB is strongish, and most published content isn't designed to withstand all of it, but fortunately, its also easily addable to existing games. Just like "caster" enemies often get Spell Like Abilities, just tack a couple 1/day or 2/day maneuvers onto any "martial" enemy.


Really, the biggest problems in ToBbers is that they are "pre-optimized"

+1

ZeroNumerous
2009-06-30, 05:31 PM
Im tired of everyone saying the wizard is overpowered. Its only overpowered if you allow almost every sourcebook in existence, my players never have problems like this.

'Cept, you know, a vast swathe of Wizard-centric optimization relies on Core. Shapechange, Grease, Ray of Enfeeblement/Exhaustion..

Doc Roc
2009-06-30, 05:32 PM
Im tired of everyone saying the wizard is overpowered. Its only overpowered if you allow almost every sourcebook in existence, my players never have problems like this.

I.... there was just a cogent explanation of why it's powerful. I don't hear a rejoinder from you.

Nerfing ToB.... Part of it may be that your other players are nova-focused, though I can't quite figure out how your fighter might be. If you're playing core only, and the fighter isn't either mounted or abusing standstill, there's not as much for a fighter to do. You might consider banning it or opening up more sources.

ErrantX
2009-06-30, 05:37 PM
Fighters can learn martial maneuvers and stances with their bonus feats, and anyone can use their advancement feats on those (should they qualify for the level reqs). All in all, I'd suggest loosening the reigns on the wizard and just ban Monkey Grip (a feat I personally detest, YMMV here). If the fighter and rogue are falling behind, well, then perhaps they should consider multiclassing into different classes or prestige classes, or find a different way to contribute more outside of simple combat. The rogue could focus on trapspringing and lock picking, for example. And honestly, a moderately well built fighter can still perform well in a group with a martial adept, especially one with the Dungeoncrasher alternate class feature from Dungeonscape.

You really shouldn't need to do a lot of work to make it even. And as Inkeyes suggested, talk to your other players first. If they're feeling out matched by the warblade, then you should sit down with all of them together and talk about that. Let the fighter reroll as a warblade or a crusader, or let the rogue multiclass a few levels into swordsage. There are lots of options.

2 cents,
-X

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-06-30, 05:38 PM
I.... there was just a cogent explanation of why it's powerful. I don't hear a rejoinder from you.Give him a minute. This forum can be...active.

@The OP: Make sure he's using the rules right. At this point he should have 1 3rd level maneuver(probably Bonecrusher if he's focused on Stone Dragon) and 2 first level stances. If he spent his 5th level bonus feat, he may have a 3rd level stance or 2 3rd level maneuvers. If this is not the case, there's an issue.

Bracket
2009-06-30, 05:40 PM
Wizards are generally very easy to control when you know what all the spells to look out for are. That's why the wizard is being outperformed. Also, none of my players are optimizers. They are smart, and can usually tell when some choices will be better than others, but no they aren't optimizers.

That's why the warblade is ahead right now. (And I had another game that went to level 12 where someone played a swordsage, and that went pretty badly) It mostly the whole manuever after maneuver each turn.

I guess stepping up the AC of enemies is a good idea though. Fighter and Barbarian have higher attack bonus then him, so that could work.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-06-30, 05:40 PM
Question: What level is the party? Tiger Claw does WAY more damage than Stone Dragon, which focuses more on ignoring DR and defending yourself, with some charging around and getting in people's faces.

You think this is bad? Wait until you see what Pouncing Strike + xing mongoose can do to damage output...

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-06-30, 05:46 PM
Wizards are generally very easy to control when you know what all the spells to look out for are. That's why the wizard is being outperformed. Also, none of my players are optimizers. They are smart, and can usually tell when some choices will be better than others, but no they aren't optimizers.It depends a lot on the Wizard. At low levels, you just have to make sure the monsters aren't vulnerable to the Wizard's favorite Save-or-X. But at about this point, you start facing Haste, and soon there will be Black Tentacles. An optimized Enchanter at level 9 or higher will make you never send a humanoid enemy at the party again, and Conjuration wrecks entire campaigns(Teleport).

Sinfire Titan
2009-06-30, 05:47 PM
Im tired of everyone saying the wizard is overpowered. Its only overpowered if you allow almost every sourcebook in existence, my players never have problems like this.

Two Words: Astral Projection.

That's the start of the list pal. You want a longer one? Here:

Grease
Shapechange
Alter Self
Polymorph
Polymorph Any Object
Gate
Time Stop
Solid Fog
Cloudkill
Evard's Black Tentacles
Mordy's Disjunction
Control Undead
Wish
Limited Wish
Glitterdust
Sleep
Color Spray
Forcecage
Contingency
Scry
Teleport

This is a fragment of a Core Wizard's power. The list goes on for another 2 pages. To be honest, this is a list about as focused as a sneeze. I could explain why these spells are overpowered, but it would take pages/hours out of my life and I don't have that kind of time.

These spells alone rape the game balance, and are one of the reasons Wizards are amongst the 6 most powerful classes in the game. When a Fighter is able to bypass the restrictions of physics as a class feature that costs less than 10% of his class levels to use (a 9th level spell slot is less than 10% of a class feature, easily), then you can say Wizards aren't broken. When a Fighter is able to create a demiplane that has a 144,000 to 1 round advantage over the Material Plane, then a Fighter is broken. BTW, that last one uses the SRD only. Doing that as a standard action requires stepping outside of core, but not very far.


Reality is a Wizard's bitch.

Eldariel
2009-06-30, 05:52 PM
Wizards are generally very easy to control when you know what all the spells to look out for are. That's why the wizard is being outperformed. Also, none of my players are optimizers. They are smart, and can usually tell when some choices will be better than others, but no they aren't optimizers.

That's why the warblade is ahead right now. (And I had another game that went to level 12 where someone played a swordsage, and that went pretty badly) It mostly the whole manuever after maneuver each turn.

That's really how it's supposed to work; instead of spamming attacks, adepts spam a variety of maneuvers that have some added bonuses, but generally can't be combined with full attacks and cost you levels to take; this results in other classes having their shtick (Fighter with feats to boost themselves, and Barbarian with Rage).

As for the Wizard, maybe lax up on him a bit if he's being outperformed? I mean, you'd optimally have all 4 about on the same level.


I guess stepping up the AC of enemies is a good idea though. Fighter and Barbarian have higher attack bonus then him, so that could work.

I'll repeat "Ranged/Flying opponents". Fighter and Barbarian both act decently at range given appropriate Composite Longbows and Wizard is naturally strong at range. Warblade, on the other hand, has no real ranged weapon proficiencies and can't use Stone Dragon while flying.

That said, punishing his school choice (which is already weak) is a bit mean, so mayhap just go with the ranged types (behind barricades, in towers, behind trapped areas, etc. armed with bows, shooting spines, breath weapons, spells or whatever) mostly.


And yeah, AC increases and perchance miss chances and one-hit counters (next level they get iteratives which he won't really be using; also Haste gives extra attack ToBbers don't get as much out of) all could serve too. There are just so many ways to go about it.

Shpadoinkle
2009-06-30, 05:54 PM
Of COURSE the warblade is going to outshine the fighter and barbarian, fighters and barbarians suck. The whole point of the warblade is so you can play a melee type who doesn't suck and isn't a DMM cleric.

AslanCross
2009-06-30, 05:59 PM
Im tired of everyone saying the wizard is overpowered. Its only overpowered if you allow almost every sourcebook in existence, my players never have problems like this.

Echoing every previous poster who said most of the nastiest Wizard spells are in core.


Anyway, OP:
-Check if your Warblade is using maneuvers of the appropriate level. While he's a 5th level warblade, he just might be using Warblade 5 maneuvers. It's like a 4th-level wizard using solid fog, a Wizard 4 spell. Warblade 5 maneuvers are only available at class levels 9 onwards. (Stupid level/level confusion.)
-Use monsters with Martial Adept levels. Raise monster HP (use maybe 70-80% of max HP instead of average, which is about 50%). An ogre with 1 level each of Barbarian and Warblade will be a lot tougher to deal with.

Seriously, I see no reason why a Stone Dragon Warblade using Monkey Grip is outperforming a Wizard apart from endurance (since he can refresh his maneuvers all day).

Bracket
2009-06-30, 05:59 PM
Flyers, right!

Also, I'm not trying to start an argument on how powerful wizard is. The thing is he isn't being outperformed by the other two, just the warblade, like the rest of the party. And I was wrong, they're level 6.

Anyway, thanks for the good suggestions; there are a lot of helpful people here.

EDIT: And I understand the rules for ToB. He's legit.

Yuki Akuma
2009-06-30, 06:00 PM
Fighters can learn martial maneuvers and stances with their bonus feats, and anyone can use their advancement feats on those (should they qualify for the level reqs). All in all, I'd suggest loosening the reigns on the wizard and just ban Monkey Grip (a feat I personally detest, YMMV here). If the fighter and rogue are falling behind, well, then perhaps they should consider multiclassing into different classes or prestige classes, or find a different way to contribute more outside of simple combat. The rogue could focus on trapspringing and lock picking, for example. And honestly, a moderately well built fighter can still perform well in a group with a martial adept, especially one with the Dungeoncrasher alternate class feature from Dungeonscape.

You really shouldn't need to do a lot of work to make it even. And as Inkeyes suggested, talk to your other players first. If they're feeling out matched by the warblade, then you should sit down with all of them together and talk about that. Let the fighter reroll as a warblade or a crusader, or let the rogue multiclass a few levels into swordsage. There are lots of options.

2 cents,
-X

...Ban Monkey Grip?!

Why?

Why would you ban Power Attack's retarded little brother and not Power Attack?

Bracket
2009-06-30, 06:04 PM
-Actually I'm confusing myself (again.) He originally had monkey grip, thought it was stupid, and asked if he could swap it for power attack, which I agreed to.

Yuki Akuma
2009-06-30, 06:08 PM
There's plenty wrong with Monkey Grip. It's Power Attack, but worse, and you can't turn it off or alter the penalty to hit/bonus damage.

Sorry, I hate Monkey Grip, but not because it's overpowered. Quite to the contrary in fact.

Bracket
2009-06-30, 06:10 PM
By nothing wrong I meant it wasn't overpowered.

And it turns out doesn't have it like I thought.

Keld Denar
2009-06-30, 06:13 PM
Sorry, I hate Monkey Grip, but not because it's overpowered. Quite to the contrary in fact.

Buster Sword fanboys?

Hmmm, where was that thread will that guy and all those banned people? That was a funny thread.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-06-30, 06:13 PM
One thing to remember is that as soon as everyone hits level 6, the Fighter and Barbarian will be making two attacks per round, while the Warblade will still be using maneuvers that require a standard action and cannot be combined with a full attack. Maybe throw in the Whirling Frenzy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#rageVariantWhirlingFrenzy ) variant to help the Barbarian. Allow the Zhentarim Soldier (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a) substitution levels (adapted or simply scrubbed of flavor) with the Never Outnumbered skill trick in CS to encourage the Fighter to do more than just swing his sword. He could even get the feat Imperious Command from Drow of the Underdark, or Frightful Presence from the Draconomicon, at level 6 to further improve his ability to unnerve his foes.

ErrantX
2009-06-30, 06:15 PM
Personal taste, mainly. I dislike the idea of my players swinging weapons larger than they are unless the game setting calls for it. I always suggest the ban on Monkey Grip.

Just my opinion. That's what we're all here to give, are we not?

-X

Eldariel
2009-06-30, 06:19 PM
Level 6, they have iteratives. Make sure Barbarian and Fighter have relative ease getting their iteratives and things will already be much better. As I mentioned before, this enables using miss chance effects, Mirror Images and the like to great effect for balancing factors as the Warblade with only one attack is more suspectible to these than the Barbarian and the Fighter.

As for the Wizard, much depends really on what's being banned and what isn't. But you could empower him slightly along with the Fighter and the Barbarian to maintain the harmony while ramping the bunch up to the Warblade's level.


And yeah, flyers are a great option. But as I mentioned before, just simple ranged opponents of any type (even landbound ones, as long as they act at ~100' range or so), especially skirmishers (mounted riders doing shoot'n'runs, for example), are excellent means to catch the Warblade out of his comfort zone while enabling the others to still function just fine.

Short version:
-Miss chance-effects
-High AC opponents
-Ranged opponents (especially skirmishers and ones hard to reach through mundane means)
-Flying opponents
-Giving the other 3 slight power buff

All of those should serve to challenge the Warblade more than the other martial types. The Wizard...well, how much he's challenged is entirely up to him, and what's banned.

Thrawn183
2009-06-30, 07:04 PM
Also suggest using haste as a buff spell. At level 6, the warblade will have gotten +1 BAB...and will be using 3rd level maneuvers, while the fighter and barbarian will begetting 3 attacks while hasted. It's kind of sad how much of a doozy level 5 is for DM's when dealing with ToB characters.

NeoVid
2009-06-30, 07:40 PM
I always suggest the ban on Monkey Grip.



Careful... outright banning anything, even a trap feat, will just make players more interested in it. Explaining why it would make their character weaker if they take it is usually a better option.

ErrantX
2009-06-30, 08:24 PM
Careful... outright banning anything, even a trap feat, will just make players more interested in it. Explaining why it would make their character weaker if they take it is usually a better option.

Things that I ban are usually for a good reason, I usually explain that Monkey Grip is a trap feat, but mostly I just don't like it for stylistic purposes. If you want to use the slab of metal, use one your size or have someone cast englarge person on you. I personally also have a marked distaste for the Scout class (because it utterly invalidates playing a non-wildshape ranger AND rogues), as well as the whole changeling race (a race that has zero accountability for anything they do, ever... yeah, Eberron doesn't even miss them; flavor is not damaged without them in the least, I just use doppelgangers!). To each their own.

-X

ericgrau
2009-06-30, 08:47 PM
The problem with warblades is that they recover their maneuvers in a fairly painless manner. So you could propose a change that it takes 1 full round action (during which they can't do anything else) for their recovery.

When I first looked over the warblades they didn't seem that special until I learned about the recharge method. This guy might be on to something.


Im tired of everyone saying the wizard is overpowered. Its only overpowered if you allow almost every sourcebook in existence, my players never have problems like this. (emphasis added)
And then came a million theoretical responses. Honestly this is how it is for most actual gaming groups I hear about and have been in. Maybe you can theoretically break things with certain strategies in certain situations, but rarely does it happen b/c either it doesn't work in practice (e.g., you don't have room on your spell list to prepare every spell for every situation, or he happens to save even on his "weak" save, or etc.) or b/c most players aren't trying to exploit loopholes against the rules' original intent.

Riffington
2009-06-30, 08:56 PM
I personally also have a marked distaste for the Scout class (because it utterly invalidates playing a non-wildshape ranger AND rogues)=
Explain this to me.
How do scouts invalidate rangers or rogues? They seem about equal to me...

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-06-30, 09:04 PM
Explain this to me.
How do scouts invalidate rangers or rogues? They seem about equal to me...

Actually, Scout makes Ranger playable with the feat Swift Hunter. Get Greater Manyshot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#greaterManyshot) and you'll get Skirmish damage on every arrow.

ErrantX
2009-06-30, 09:10 PM
Wizards don't need help in any party, they're already the cream of the crop. Tier 1 classes simply don't have to try to compete; if they have to, then they're doing wrong. Even a poorly played wizard always has options.

My advice to the DM is simply to make sure that the warblade is playing correctly and familiarize yourself to the rules of the ToB. It's an amazing book. If there is still a problem, well, then it is probably less the rules and more the players, sadly.


Explain this to me.
How do scouts invalidate rangers or rogues? They seem about equal to me...

Because they're as good a trapfinder and such as a rogue, they're got more skills than a ranger, a better defining class feature than their racist Power of Hatred stuff or a rogue's sneak attack, overall just better class features than either class, and can be abused more readily. It's like if you took the best of both worlds and added them together without any negatives.


Actually, Scout makes Ranger playable with the feat Swift Hunter. Get Greater Manyshot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#greaterManyshot) and you'll get Skirmish damage on every arrow.

One new base class should never make one old base class playable :P They should be playable out of the box.

-X

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-06-30, 09:14 PM
I personally also have a marked distaste for the Scout class (because it utterly invalidates playing a non-wildshape ranger AND rogues), as well as the whole changeling race (a race that has zero accountability for anything they do, ever... yeah, Eberron doesn't even miss them; flavor is not damaged without them in the least, I just use doppelgangers!). To each their own.Wildshape Ranger made non-Wildshape Rangers invalidated. Scout just made a Ranger with Workable mechanics(not to mention Swift Hunter for the best of both worlds). A Rogue outdamages a Scout almost all the time. I love the class, but it is no more powerful than the Rogue in almost any situation, let alone replacing the whole class.

As for Changeling, to each his own, but remember their signature ability is replaced by a 1,800 GP magic item. Not overpowered. Ban them for flavor purposes I guess, but the race was part of Eberron's(IMHO successful) attempt to have races that actually seem more different than the small mechanical changes between most of the 1 HD humanoids.

shadow_archmagi
2009-06-30, 09:16 PM
I got lazy and stopped reading this thread; I apologize if I'm restating something, but I want to just say this piece of information that is almost certainly entirely pointless but in a surprisingly large number of ToB threads goes unnoticed by the OP.

Manuever levels work like spell levels; a fifth level warblade shouldn't have access to fifth level manuevers any more than your fifth level wizard should be casting Fabricate. There's a table somewhere in there that mentions the specific levels at which new levels of maneuver become available.

Myrmex
2009-06-30, 09:17 PM
Oh right, I suppose that is relevant :smalltongue:

Basically he took monkey grip from... I forget what (we play mostly core, he has a lot of books though), so he has a 3d6 great axe, and he mostly uses stone dragon maneuvers. They're all level 5 right now.

Low levels are the bread and butter of ToB. If you level everyone up rapidly to 10, the warblade should fall behind. He will still be outperforming the fighter, though.

Sinfire Titan
2009-06-30, 09:17 PM
Things that I ban are usually for a good reason, I usually explain that Monkey Grip is a trap feat, but mostly I just don't like it for stylistic purposes. If you want to use the slab of metal, use one your size or have someone cast englarge person on you. I personally also have a marked distaste for the Scout class (because it utterly invalidates playing a non-wildshape ranger AND rogues), as well as the whole changeling race (a race that has zero accountability for anything they do, ever... yeah, Eberron doesn't even miss them; flavor is not damaged without them in the least, I just use doppelgangers!). To each their own.

-X

Scout 4/Ranger 16 with swift Hunter is considered a good build for a Ranger. Rogues get better damage with Sneak Attack, and with Daring Outlaw you can go Rogue 4/Swashbuckler 16 and get full Sneak Attack advancement on a near-Full BAB character. Scout does not invalidate the Rogue, as Skirmish is inherently weaker than Sneak Attack (5d6, 1/round unless you spend a feat on Travel Devotion or 2 feats on Greater Manyshot) and still allows for crit immunity to negate the damage.

Changelings are one of the least broken races there is (sans Warshaper shenanigans, but that's been proven to suck anyway), and True Seeing negates their shapechanging ability outright. Or you can use the Two-Bladed Sword in the DMG that has bane against shapechangers, since Changelings qualify. Also, the race is supposed to be a Rogue-esque race. Its designed with trickery in mind, why shouldn't they be allowed to get away with some things? A clever DM can use Divination spells to apprehend the character 9or just pull a Deus, seeing as the DM is god) if things get out of hand. Its not like Changelings can become invisible. Finally, the race was designed to allow players to play a Doppleganger without taking a -6 hit to their class levels while still being balanced. Rogues can get away with it anyway, seeing as Disguise is a class skill.

Honestly, some of the stuff you've banned makes no sense at all.


Because they're as good a trapfinder and such as a rogue, they're got more skills than a ranger, a better defining class feature than their racist Power of Hatred stuff or a rogue's sneak attack, overall just better class features than either class, and can be abused more readily. It's like if you took the best of both worlds and added them together without any negatives.


Did you even read the class? Skirmish is a nerfed Sneak Attack (not as nerfed as Sudden Strike, but still nerfed). Is it so wrong to let the Scout Skirmish at will? I suppose you nerfed Sneak Attack to 1/round like 4E did too, and banned Iterative attacks so the Fighter sucks.

Call my post a Strawman if you will, but the fact stands that Sneak Attack blows Skirmish out of the water.

ColdSepp
2009-06-30, 09:19 PM
When I first looked over the warblades they didn't seem that special until I learned about the recharge method. This guy might be on to something.


I was under the impression that the Char Ops preferred the Crusaders method over the Warblades? No action vs swift action and melee attack. Not that huge a difference, and both are very strong classes, but that was the impression I got.

Sinfire Titan
2009-06-30, 09:23 PM
I was under the impression that the Char Ops preferred the Crusaders method over the Warblades? No action vs swift action and melee attack. Not that huge a difference, and both are very strong classes, but that was the impression I got.

They are tied, but economy-wise the Crusader's is better. Warblade makes up for the action economy by having more control over what maneuver is readied.

Faleldir
2009-06-30, 09:32 PM
One new base class should never make one old base class playable :P They should be playable out of the box.
Well that's just too bad because Ranger isn't. What kind of logic is that? You're admitting that Ranger sucks, but you hate the one feat that was specifically designed to make Ranger better.

Animefunkmaster
2009-06-30, 09:47 PM
Ok first thing to note for the trap of monkey grip is that lots of dice =/= powerful in all circumstances. Also you have no choice on the penalty (and gives you variable damage that might not even apply), where as the fighter may take power attack and get a good return when he has an advantage to hit (charge, flank, enemy is flatfooted/prone/debuffed or you are using the shocktrooper feat).

Next thing to note, the Warblade doesn't, or rather shouldn't, have all 3rd level maneuvers. At level 5 he has learned his first and only level 3 maneuver, and his stances should be below 3rd level as he didn't have the IL to learn them at the time. Or he has an extra 3rd level stance or maneuver based on his bonus feat.

Your player might not be following the following text quoted from Tome of Battle.

Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even-numbered warblade level after that (6th, 8th, 10th, and so on), you can choose to learn a new maneuver in place of one you already know.
<Snip>
You can swap only a single maneuver at any given level.
<snip>
Unlike with maneuvers, you cannot learn a new stance at higher levels in place of one you already know.


With that granted he has a -2 to hit and damage of 3d6 great sword + 4d6 bone crusher (stone dragon strike) + 1 1/2 str, fort or others get a bonus on confirming criticals. So we are looking at 24.5 + 1.5 str 1/encounter or until refreshed.

Now your caster may have a hard time matching that damage (assuming the warblade has a substantial strength), which is normal for a caster lower than 7ish. But the caster can play with all sorts of things to make enemies lose that doesn't rely on hit points (enlarging the fighter or barbarian is a good way to go. The extra damage from the AoOs alone will out damage his single maneuver). Your rogue should probably be able to keep up, he has two attacks I would imagine and could theoretically get two sneak attacks per round depending on the situation (6d6 + 2 weapon damage + maybe str/poison). The fighter might have some trouble, but then again, when hasn't a fighter had trouble with hp damage? A well built fighter will focus on things that aren't specifically damage (like AoOs, trips, bull rush). The barbarian should be able to get pretty close to the warblade with shear strength, a two hander, and power attack (with assistance from the fighter and a flank).

With that all that said, it seems like he deals a good amount of damage to a single target. My first thought is to throw something at him to reduce his attack bonus more (that -2 to attacks is pretty bad for little in return). Nets come to mind (god I love nets at low level), they are cheap and useful, even without the proficiency your looking at a touch attack vs a pretty reasonable debuff. It hurts your movement, your AC, your to hit (especially those using weapon finesse), and kills your action to get the sucker off. Once netted it opens the door for larger enemies to have there way with him (disarm/grapple/sunder/trip) and generally make his life miserable.

Also more enemies will not only make the combat last longer, but force the warblade to choose who to focus on (granted this is where the wizard fireballs, sleet storms, or worse), which adds more danger if he uses a weak maneuver to try and drop there front line and fails he might be in trouble or if he rushes in and tries to drop what he thinks is the boss only to find he wasted the maneuver on a weakling. Not best to use this strategy in every encounter, but wasting your good maneuver, even for a round, could make things harder for the warblade.

Intelligent enemies who notice the warblades damage ability shouldn't try to take on the warblade alone. Group up and ping some arrows at a distance, let the large creature's AoO try to disarm the warblade as he closes in for melee (again taking advantage of the large bonus to disarm and the warblades penalty to hit). The warblade has a weak will save, and possibly reflex (depending on how he is built) which can be taken advantage of in a number of ways.

How are the other party members built?

ErrantX
2009-06-30, 09:59 PM
Wildshape Ranger made non-Wildshape Rangers invalidated. Scout just made a Ranger with Workable mechanics(not to mention Swift Hunter for the best of both worlds). A Rogue outdamages a Scout almost all the time. I love the class, but it is no more powerful than the Rogue in almost any situation, let alone replacing the whole class.

Touche on that one. I just have a personal distaste for it. I banned it in my current game due to the fact that three people on separate occasions without knowing what my campaign rules were wanted to play changeling scouts. I don't ban it in all games, but I have a distaste for it.


As for Changeling, to each his own, but remember their signature ability is replaced by a 1,800 GP magic item. Not overpowered. Ban them for flavor purposes I guess, but the race was part of Eberron's(IMHO successful) attempt to have races that actually seem more different than the small mechanical changes between most of the 1 HD humanoids.

Indeed. We shall have to agree to disagree on this. It just strikes me that after the Silver Flame got done purging werebeasts, they'd turn on changelings next :P

-X

P.S. Thank you for also not feeling it necessary to insult my intelligence or reading comprehension skills in disagreeing with me. I feel that I should thank you, as it is apparently a rare trait.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-06-30, 10:02 PM
Nope. Doesn't work. You're still getting multiple attacks in a single non-full round action. Even though you're making multiple attack rolls, you still only get to apply precision damage to the first attack.
I believe this rule is in Complete Scoundrel or Adventurer, but I do know it is also in the Rules Compendium (page 42).Read the feat:
...Your precision-based damage applies to each arrow fired...

AmberVael
2009-06-30, 10:03 PM
Read the feat:

Caught me before I deleted my post out of shame when I reread it to make sure. :smallredface:

Edit: it's kinda sad that I can remember a somewhat obscure rule that I personally never end up using, but that I can't even properly remember the feat I just read. :smallyuk:

ashmanonar
2009-06-30, 10:17 PM
There's your problem. He's level 5. Give the party 3 more levels, and you will notice his damage output will lag when he uses maneuvers.

Exactly. Warblades and Crusaders do awesome at the lower levels, before Wizards and other casters start getting their 4th and higher level spells, and enough spells a day to actually do something.

half eaten oreo
2009-06-30, 11:04 PM
I love tome of battle, but it can be a problem if the rest of the party is not optimized. Most of my players are good optimizers(one more munchkin), they optimize for one shots, but for long running campaigns they usually go for interesting and fun over powerful. A few months ago I DM'ed a party that consisted of a mystic theurge, a warmage, a feint rogue (fainting as a move action), a knight and a warblade. The knight was pretty well built for battlefield control, but otherwise the group was not optimized at all. The warblade had to constantly hold back to not outshine the party. He's a good player and everyone had fun (the campaign ended at lvl 15), but I can see why some groups would have a problem with ToB, the classes are very well built and don't require a whole lot of optimization.

Tukka
2009-07-01, 12:22 AM
Next thing to note, the Warblade doesn't, or rather shouldn't, have all 3rd level maneuvers. At level 5 he has learned his first and only level 3 maneuver, and his stances should be below 3rd level as he didn't have the IL to learn them at the time. Or he has an extra 3rd level stance or maneuver based on his bonus feat.
He shouldn't even have a second 3rd level stance or maneuver because the junky Warblade bonus feat list doesn't include Martial Study or Martial Stance. He could conceivably get one of those martial adept items that gives you extra maneuvers, but they are pretty expensive for a level 5 character.

Jesse Drake
2009-07-01, 12:45 AM
My first encounter with the book was during the red hand (at the time a bi-weekly schedule)... The party was 2 Healers (so suffice to say the ghost lord died early), a wizard, the arabian themed wizard like class from Dragon Compendium, can't rembember right now, myself, a fighter and a swordsage. The swordsage, who came in at a later time and had no good backstory, totally upstage me, a mighty dragon slayer wearing dragon armor and using flight to take care of his foes (Spent a good part of my level 8 gold on potions of flight... Yes, our party died halfway through, all but the wizard), and until he joined in, I was getting some good action, tearing through dragonspawn and such with ease... Then both the wizard and I got angry when the little fire sword guy, who also happened to have played before but omitted that until afterwards, came in and started using all sorts of fireball/sword swinging moves, making us both obsolete... So we decided I'd get charmed, with my terrible will saves (I was infamous for them), and challenged the guy one on one... I could fly, now with wings of flying, and had full opportunity to kill him... when his girlfriend, who joined in as a second healer (while useful just devalued our efforts) decided to fix my condition... Just thought I'd share my fury over the swordsage here.

ex cathedra
2009-07-01, 01:16 AM
Sorry if this offends you, but that seems really immature. Perhaps I don't understand the situation fully.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-07-01, 01:24 AM
My first encounter with the book was during the red hand (at the time a bi-weekly schedule)... The party was 2 Healers (so suffice to say the ghost lord died early), a wizard, the arabian themed wizard like class from Dragon Compendium, can't rembember right now, myself, a fighter and a swordsage. The swordsage, who came in at a later time and had no good backstory, totally upstage me, a mighty dragon slayer wearing dragon armor and using flight to take care of his foes (Spent a good part of my level 8 gold on potions of flight... Yes, our party died halfway through, all but the wizard), and until he joined in, I was getting some good action, tearing through dragonspawn and such with ease... Then both the wizard and I got angry when the little fire sword guy, who also happened to have played before but omitted that until afterwards, came in and started using all sorts of fireball/sword swinging moves, making us both obsolete... So we decided I'd get charmed, with my terrible will saves (I was infamous for them), and challenged the guy one on one... I could fly, now with wings of flying, and had full opportunity to kill him... when his girlfriend, who joined in as a second healer (while useful just devalued our efforts) decided to fix my condition... Just thought I'd share my fury over the swordsage here.

Sounds like he was using a lot of Desert wind with a stance that grants Wind Walking. Rather sub-optimal way to build one, actually. Tiger Claw would have been dishing out MUCH more damage. Besides, shoudln't at least some of the dragonspawn been immune to fire?

The problem here wasn't the class, but the player, who sounds like a jerk.

Jesse Drake
2009-07-01, 01:26 AM
It wasn't a spur of the moment thing, he had been bothering a few of us players for a while, we were playing to have fun and enjoy, and he was playing to win. We didn't like him ruining the fun of the game with his foreknowledge of the game and scrutinous use of technicalities to beat the game... I just don't think it's cool for a grown person to come into a game just to play a robotic shell of a good character with no intention of having fun. I play D&D to role play out interesting characters, and he got in the way of it. And I agree, the player was the problem.

quick_comment
2009-07-01, 01:27 AM
It wasn't a spur of the moment thing, he had been bothering a few of us players for a while, we were playing to have fun and enjoy, and he was playing to win. We didn't like him ruining the fun of the game with his foreknowledge of the game and scrutinous use of technicalities to beat the game... I just don't think it's cool for a grown person to come into a game just to play a robotic shell of a good character with no intention of having fun. I play D&D to role play out interesting characters, and he got in the way of it. And I agree, the player was the problem.

So yeah, you are immature.

ex cathedra
2009-07-01, 01:42 AM
I don't see how knowing the game mechanics makes him a worse player, or how it's something to shun him for. Anyways, playing a desert wind swordsage really isn't over-optimizing, in the first place. And trying to kill his character for it? That seems.. terrible.

quick_comment
2009-07-01, 01:44 AM
[b]totally upstage me, a mighty dragon slayer wearing dragon armor and using flight to take care of his foes

This is the main thing I have issue with (other than your atrocious punctuation). You sound like a munchkin.

That and the fact that his character is one of the worst (mechanically speaking) things you can build out of ToB.

Tukka
2009-07-01, 01:49 AM
I don't see how knowing the game mechanics makes him a worse player, or how it's something to shun him for. Anyways, playing a desert wind swordsage really isn't over-optimizing, in the first place. And trying to kill his character for it? That seems.. terrible.
I think part of the complaint was that he was using his knowledge of a published adventure to dominate encounters, when he told the group he'd never had any exposure to the adventure they were playing. If that is the case, I can understand some of the frustration.

Still, I agree that it doesn't sound like they chose the best or most mature means of dealing with the problem. If someone doesn't share your idea of what makes the game fun (and everyone is entitled to their different play style and preferences) then talk it out, and if that doesn't work, don't play with him.

And it seems to me that it wouldn't have been that difficult for the DM to adjust for what was going on, if he was aware of the situation. If the character that's dominating the encounters heavily relies on mobility and fire-based attacks ... give the monsters things that hinder mobility and give them fire resistance of some form. As for the meta-gaming, that can be addressed by deviating from the published material in some choice ways.

Kaiyanwang
2009-07-01, 02:18 AM
OP, maybe it could be trivial.. but..

The wizard will grow in power soon, levelling up.

I don't know ToB so much, but if you ask the Warblade take some White Raven maneuvers, could this work? This could make a PC that dishes out damage in fight and help other meleers.

I ask to those more found with the book.. could this work?

More, can I ask how Barbarian and Fighter are built?

Starbuck_II
2009-07-01, 09:36 AM
This is the main thing I have issue with (other than your atrocious punctuation). You sound like a munchkin.

That and the fact that his character is one of the worst (mechanically speaking) things you can build out of ToB.

If he sucks mechanically, can a munchkin he be?

Sounds like a blue "red color". Kinda exclusive.

Keld Denar
2009-07-01, 10:02 AM
A munchkin is more classically defined as a person who cheats or relies on DM caveat/favoratism to accomplish exceptional feats. A munchkin may add Bane: Dragons to his sword 9 times (against the rules), and then brags about how he can slay a dragon in 1 shot because that sounds cool. Mechanically and practically, its not good, but it does sound good. Or a munchkin would get a DM to approve adding an uber template of goodness with no impact to his ECL in an effort to upstage everyone (I roleplay my character as descended from a dragon, I should get the 1/2 dragon template for free, even though no one else is getting free LA).

Munchkins don't have to have an amazing grasp on the rules, they just gloss over them. That is why calling someone a munchkin is so bad. Its akin to calling someone a cheater, only worse. I honestly don't think anyone in this thread is worthy of that kind of insult. And anyway, calling someone a munchkin is frowned upon here because its inflamatory.

Jesse Drake
2009-07-01, 12:19 PM
I admit I took the low road, and my paragraphs tend to go on and on in a block like manner, and I use a lot of commas. However, I do not believe myself to be a munchkin. I wasted two feats for exotic weapons (what kinda dragon slayer wouldn't take the five dragon head maces and use them all in battle via quickdraw), and all my class abilities were only effective against dragons. (I went the Unearthed Arcana Scion of Battle) And I also took ranks in Perform: Weapon Drill, so after each battle I did an impressive sword trick.

Riffington
2009-07-01, 08:04 PM
Ranger, when it came out, didn't suck (except compared to real casters). Assuming that favored enemy will cover a decent number of the foes in your campaign (in a ranger's best case, humans would be 90% of the foes; in a worst case, you're playing alice in wonderland), they did decent damage prior to the explosion of damaging feats. And given that decent extra damage, both 2-handed fighting and archery were reasonable feat paths.
So they had superb skills (6+int+bonus from favored enemy), full-BAB, and feats to rival a fighter's, at least at low-mid levels.
But then fighters got better feats like Leap Attack that didn't synergize with the ranger schools of fighting, rogues got more consistent sneak attack damage, etc. The feats help rangers much less, and make their set feats worth less in comparison. Still, a ranger2/rogueX can do much more damage than a scout.

re:munchkin.
A munchkin may or may not cheat. It's someone who seeks personal power at the cost of others' fun, realism, and/or roleplaying. I don't think either of the players necessarily sounds like a munchkin.

Eldritch_Ent
2009-07-01, 08:41 PM
add Bane: Dragons to his sword 9 times (against the rules), and then brags about how he can slay a dragon in 1 shot because that sounds cool.

Actually, that sounds like a fun character for a one shot. A total braggart who actually is phenominal at what he's bragging about, but completely useless on everything else.