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GreatWyrmGold
2009-06-30, 07:43 PM
Which takes the world, so to speak?
I'm wondering what you think would happen in the following circumstance?

1.)
In a Dark Ages, no magic, otherwise standard D&D world, roughly modern technology comes into use at the same time D&D-esque magic does (think alien intervention/Shadowrun).
2.)
In a modernish world, D&D-type magic comes suddenly in (think Shadowrun).
3.)
In a Dark Ages, otherwise standard D&D world, modern-ish technology suddenly comes into use (think alien intervention).

playswithfire
2009-06-30, 08:04 PM
Best guesses:

1.)
In a Dark Ages, no magic, otherwise standard D&D world, roughly modern technology comes into use at the same time D&D-esque magic does (think alien intervention/Shadowrun).
Best case scenario, you end up with some interesting hybrid stuff: power plants run by fireballs, etc. I'm not sure which one wins if they end up fighting each other, as the two technologies are generally designed to fight within themselves rather than against each other. The "rules" get weird.

2.)
In a modernish world, D&D-type magic comes suddenly in (think Shadowrun).
Most likely something like the X-Men universe replacing mutancy with magic.

3.)
In a Dark Ages, otherwise standard D&D world, modern-ish technology suddenly comes into use (think alien intervention).[/QUOTE]
Magic crushes tech in its infancy or directs tech into less threatening pursuits.

Magicus
2009-06-30, 08:12 PM
Hm... An interesting question. I'd say that it would really depend on what type of magic we're talking about. If you mean a conception where "magic is based on physical laws and is a kind of/sort of science", then I'd say that they would be somewhat equal, but magic would have a definite edge, because a) it can generally do more things than modern technology, and b) it usually requires fewer resources. If magic is different (possibly more "magical" than naturalistic, or perhaps weaker and more taxing, as in Shadowrun), of course, the situation changes dramatically.

1. In this case, I think magic would definitely win out, simply because it takes less of a scientific mindset to grasp the concept of "Say these words and throw this powder, and things go boom" than it does to grasp higher science. Even if they somehow had the raw knowledge to pull off modern technology, they probably wouldn't have a good enough grasp of the empirical mindset to utilize it to the fullest, and would probably be more drawn to magic anyway.
2. Again, magic probably wins, although they would end up more equal, I'd guess. Most people would probably be attracted to magic over technology as an easy route to power, especially if it's as consequence-free as D&D magic, and they'd already have the proper way of thinking to make use of it even if it were a scientific kind of magic. This would probably lead to stagnation in the technological arena for a good long while, but I don't think even magic is enough to make us turn our backs on warm showers and television, so we wouldn't ever really abandon technology.
3. This one is the most interesting. I think, once again, that magic would probably remain the chief means to power, mostly for the reasons I gave for number 1 above. But I don't think that technology would be too far behind, especially with all those high-Int, study-minded Wizards jumping on the bandwagon. Technology would probably become the purview of the elite, but would eventually spread, albeit slowly, to the rest of the populace. Definitely in the realm of warfare, as every civilized mook army becomes a decent threat to Wizards with grenades and heavy artillery... At least until they start coming up with spells to counter those. But that's a tangent for another day.
I don't even want to think about what happens when Wizards and scientists start incorporating D&D-style magic and modern technology into some sort of crazy, monstrous, world-destroying hybrid... But then again, maybe I do. :smallwink:

Hat-Trick
2009-06-30, 08:26 PM
In all cases, you'd have full plate become obsolete due to the sheer power of the gun just punching through it, warriors would be trained in the art of gunmanship because they're easier to wield and more deadly than most medieval weapons, and Solid Cloud becomes less effective due to a "More Dakka (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MoreDakka)" mentality. Wizards would start carrying around a glock for a nice alternative to magic, rogues have silencers, and rangers become Jagers.

Suzuro
2009-06-30, 08:47 PM
I'd have to disagree with people here, I'd think that technology wins. It's the same reason why bows and arrows were replaced with guns: They're easier to use and train in.

Which would you rather have? Spend years and years learning how to properly say these words, with this substance, oh, and you have to study this book every night.

OR

Pull this pin and throw.

Fireball and a grenade are eerily similar when it comes to blowing drek up.


-Suzuro

NecroRebel
2009-06-30, 09:16 PM
I'm agreed with Suzuro for the most part; the ease-of-use of technology, and the supposed relative dearth of mages of any sort in most D&D settings (except perhaps Tippyverses et al) means that the mass-production of powerful weapons and devices by the tech side of any conflict will win out over the fewer and individually more effective mages.

Do note that I dislike the terms "technology and magic" to represent some sort of dualism. Magic is technology; that is, magic is practically-applied knowledge. Saying "technology vs. magic" is fairly nonsensical. Now, if we clarify physical technologies (that is, practically-applied knowledge of physical processes) versus magic, or magic technologies (practically-applied knowledge of magical processes), we get something that is what you meant, but is more accurate :smalltongue:

So, in case 1, physics ultimately becomes more used, though magic doesn't ever fully die out simply because there are things that can be done more easily via magical than physical technologies.

In case 2, I would actually guess that magic would be embraced and integrated wholeheartedly as a new science. It may tend to invalidate some former theories, but that's nothing new in science as a whole. One might even go so far as to say that science is the practice of attempting to prove theories wrong, so that matters little. Shortly after its appearance, magic is cataloged as thoroughly as it can be and will be examined more as time passes, and shortly after that practical applications will be released. Neither physical nor magical technologies, under this model, are truly neglected.

In case 3, again, physics becomes more used, for the same reasons given.

Pie Guy
2009-06-30, 10:26 PM
Assuming a straight-up fight:

1:When the wizards are learning cantrips, the techies are shooting them from space with lasers, as well as carpet bombing. Advantage:Technology

2: See above.

3: Timestop, delayed blast fireball, delayed blast fireball, delayed blast fireball, climactic explosion. Advantage: Magic

Kiren
2009-06-30, 11:45 PM
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
- Arthur C. Clark

Number 1: If magic and technology come in at the same time, both will be utilized at the same time, with no previous knowledge of magic or advanced technology, to learn of its uses would in both cases be accidental and likely in a similar time span then the other. Edit: Accidents common, from that point on either could be shunned/accepted, an industrial revolution of magic and/or technology.

Number 2: If magic came into a modern setting, the result would most likely be a second Industrial revolution, from trial and error. For a couple of years accidents will be common, certain groups will refer to magic usage as devil worship and evil. Eventually magic will be integrated with technology.

Number 3: If technology suddenly introduces itself to a DnD standard setting, discoveries will come from trial and error, accidents common, if harnessed there would possibly be a industrial revolution like our own if era-correct intellectuals could recreate the technology, certain groups may resent technology and shun its usage, eventually it will come down to which group is bigger, in the case that technology is completely shunned, this may continue for a long period of time until a period of enlightenment where said technology is rediscovered or reintroduced.

Trizap
2009-07-01, 12:23 AM
why Magic VS. Tech man?!? who would ever say that Tech and Magic would fight man?!

I mean look at it this way: both wizards and scientists are super-intelligent, if they ever met, they would probably hug each other and accept each other into their ranks and start comparing rules and formulas of how the universe works and start figuring out how their both of their theories could be correct or something, share their knowledge to make progress even faster until they reach godhood or something like that........probably make utopia together.

Trizap for Arcane-Scientific Peace!

Trizap
2009-07-01, 12:24 AM
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
- Arthur C. Clark

Number 1: If magic and technology come in at the same time, both will be utilized at the same time, with no previous knowledge of magic or advanced technology, to learn of its uses would in both cases be accidental and likely in a similar time span then the other. Edit: Accidents common, from that point on either could be shunned/accepted, an industrial revolution of magic and/or technology.

Number 2: If magic came into a modern setting, the result would most likely be a second Industrial revolution, from trial and error. For a couple of years accidents will be common, certain groups will refer to magic usage as devil worship and evil. Eventually magic will be integrated with technology.

Number 3: If technology suddenly introduces itself to a DnD standard setting, discoveries will come from trial and error, accidents common, if harnessed there would possibly be a industrial revolution like our own if era-correct intellectuals could recreate the technology, certain groups may resent technology and shun its usage, eventually it will come down to which group is bigger, in the case that technology is completely shunned, this may continue for a long period of time until a period of enlightenment where said technology is rediscovered or reintroduced.

I agree with all of this, very rational, and most probable.

Jayngfet
2009-07-01, 12:41 AM
The problem with this is we're assuming everyone has access to mid/high level magic, as well as really good tech. The average spellcaster is going to have burning hands as his base damaging attack, or perhaps magic missile. Meanwhile everyone's got a revolver and some bullets, as well as perhaps spending a feat or two using it.

In a duel between a fighter using a six shooter with one clip of bullets and a wizard who can cast magic missile/burning hands twice the fighter winds, because unless he rolls REALLY low on HD or is forced into close combat he can take a couple of 1d4+1 magic missiles, and shoot him for a 3d6 damage hit from VERY far away. Meaning unless he misses all six shots or rolls all ones on the 18d6 damage in that hit dice he's going to win VERY quickly.

If we get to high level magic and more advanced tech it becomes more interesting. The two opponents will be scrying and using cameras in orbit to locate each other from half a world away and having missile silo's and ninth level spells and orbital lasers and teleports, it all comes down to who finds who first since the tech guy can nuke him from a continent away, but he can greater teleport in and fire from 400 feet away and fireball him.

averagejoe
2009-07-01, 12:49 AM
why Magic VS. Tech man?!? who would ever say that Tech and Magic would fight man?!

I mean look at it this way: both wizards and scientists are super-intelligent, if they ever met, they would probably hug each other and accept each other into their ranks and start comparing rules and formulas of how the universe works and start figuring out how their both of their theories could be correct or something, share their knowledge to make progress even faster until they reach godhood or something like that........probably make utopia together.

Trizap for Arcane-Scientific Peace!

Yeah, you can get all sorts of neat stuff when putting the two together; you could probably build perpetual motion machines so long as you have a guy whose job it is to cast Flame Wall all day, or something. The implications really are quite staggering.

quick_comment
2009-07-01, 01:09 AM
Wizards have the highest int of all classes. They would be the ones inventing the technology. It would be indistinguishable from magic. Microwave ovens would be working on the same principles as Horrid Wilting.

HamsterOfTheGod
2009-07-01, 05:06 AM
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. -- Arthur C. Clarke

Any sufficiently ubiquotous magic is indistinguishable from technology. -- Hong Ooi

Bayar
2009-07-01, 05:27 AM
Http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1173555 - magic IS technology.

Coidzor
2009-07-01, 05:46 AM
Yeah, you can get all sorts of neat stuff when putting the two together; you could probably build perpetual motion machines so long as you have a guy whose job it is to cast Flame Wall all day, or something. The implications really are quite staggering.

Or a permanencied one... mmm, infinite steam... Or hell, decanters of endless water set to the geyser setting or whatever spinning turbines and then feeding into a reservoir or forming the headwaters of a river/stream. Hydro electric power and irrigation in even the driest of deserts.

Gralamin
2009-07-01, 05:54 AM
Or a permanencied one... mmm, infinite steam... Or hell, decanters of endless water set to the geyser setting or whatever spinning turbines and then feeding into a reservoir or forming the headwaters of a river/stream. Hydro electric power and irrigation in even the driest of deserts.

Now all we need is a way of curing Global warming. Which makes me wonder: Can anyone find a way to have magic reduce the CO2 in the air and thus get rid of global warming? Note that temporary measures like some way of cooling down the planet doesn't really solve the problem.

Coidzor
2009-07-01, 05:58 AM
Now all we need is a way of curing Global warming. Which makes me wonder: Can anyone find a way to have magic reduce the CO2 in the air and thus get rid of global warming? Note that temporary measures like some way of cooling down the planet doesn't really solve the problem.

Closest thing that I can think of is to open up to the plane of air over major sources of CO2 pollution. Since I don't think you can open up stable rifts to the astral plane and be done with it. Nor would you really want to. Air... most you've gotta worry about is a dumb bird getting stuck in the turbines or what have you... Unless you're dumb enough to open the portal in some Djinn's garden or sommat.

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-07-01, 06:01 AM
Low level magic vs low-power tech:
We're talking about 3rd level and lower spells vs man-portable tech. They are pretty even at this level but magic is potentially more dangerous with the right tactics while tech has higher destructive capabilities.
Magic Advantages:
Casting a spell costs usually nothing except time to rest while tech always costs money to run.
Spells, unlike most tech, can have more than offencive abilities. A fighter fighting a blaster mage might or might not win. An invisible mage that mage-hands the other guy's grenade pins? Someone casting protection from bullets? A mage charming the fighter or putting him to sleep?
Spells are much more reliable than guns-they never malfunction, can't be stolen or broken and the other guy never knows you have them; they can't be detected via tech.
Spells can be tailored to protect you from guns; protection from bullets, lesser ironguard, heat metal (on the other guy's grenade!), machine invisibility, shutdown.
Tech advantages:
Tech can be learned faster than magic-provided you have the money for it.
Tech deals more damage and at (usually) longer range.
Tech can be mass-produced, unlike magic.

Mid-level magic vs mid-power tech:
We're talking about 4th-6th level spells vs up to the heaviest ground weaponry. In this level, things become ugly; the techies can't kill mid-level mages but they don't have to-they have the numbers to take losses while using scorched earth tactics on the enemy country. The end depends entirely on if the mages are ruthless enough to ignore invading armies and start teleport+cloudkill+create undead+call demon tactics behind enemy lines. If they aren't ruthless enough, they lose. If they are, both sides will eventually be destroyed.
Magic advantages:
A plethora of weird and sometimes unblockable effects. A single mage with greater invisibility, some disintegrate, resist fire, ironguard, metal melt, heat metal and summon spells could take on most ground armies; disintegrate and metal melt destroy a tank outright. Heat metal on any metallic container of explosives or fuel is fun-virtually all tech weapons are such. Summoning incorporeal stuff (especially undead) is a nightmare for the opposition. Resist Fire would protect you from the heat of explosions while Ironguard or Starmantle render any modern projectile weapons utterly useless. And you teleport away when you feel like you've done enough damage.
Tech advantages:
Tech has a tremendous advantage in numbers. A country can field only a few dozen or so mid-level mages while it can field thousands of tanks and artillery and hundreds of thousands of troops.

High-level magic vs high-level tech:
Despite the tremedous devastation power of tech at this level-ICBM with nukes or biological warfare come to mind-magic wins. A high-level mage can use Demand to influence enemy leaders from a continent away or scry-and-blast any government building in twenty seconds. He can make safehouses and eventually safe lands for thousands of people by ushering them through Gates to a safe plane and can annihilate a city simply by Gating a powerful enough outsider that is immune to nonmagical attacks.
Once the fight starts though, the planet will lose even if the mage wins. Of course, the mage can put himself and his friends/family in temporal stasis under a contingent unbinding with a timer of ten thousand years in the future. The radiation will have abated by then and he can start the human race anew.

GreatWyrmGold
2009-07-03, 08:11 AM
I'm not sure which one wins if they end up fighting each other...

Note to self: Don't assume that others understand your shorthand just because you do.
I meant, will one 'replace" the other (think of the telephone replacing the telegraph.)

Lamech
2009-07-03, 09:34 AM
Note to self: Don't assume that others understand your shorthand just because you do.
I meant, will one 'replace" the other (think of the telephone replacing the telegraph.) They won't replace each other. Tech is easy to see the average person has a much higher standard of living with tech than magic. Unless magic decides to turn ludite it won't get rid of tech. Magic would also stick around, it can do things like reverse gravity, which would power massive turbines. It can teleport. Contact outer plane has amazing research applications. Reincarnate can extend life spans forever. Technology is esentially looking at the natural world and figuring out how one can use it. Magic would be embraced so tech would never eliminate magic. Asking if which one will replace the other is like asking if anti-virals would one day replace antibiotics.

RagnaroksChosen
2009-07-03, 12:02 PM
I think magic would win in all these spots. As the definetion of magic is the ability to break the natural laws.

Also got to factor in Divine magic....


Think of Jyhadists with Divine spells? Even with our guns i think it would make some interesting battles with rockets colliding with gated in celestials...

I have a feeling things would evolve into something similar to Warhammer 40k...

Corwin Weber
2009-07-03, 08:03 PM
Alchemy and magical item creation meet the Industrial Revolution. Healing and Cure Disease potions at least get churned out on a production line, making them ubiquitous. Same with minor magical items. (Rings of Prestidigitation, Rings of Invisibility, Rings of Protection, etc.)

Wizards and Sorcerors also discover that there's no chance of spell failure while wearing kevlar. They also discover that even something as light and easily controlled as a .38 snub nose is lethal at close range.

Neither magic nor technology would replace the other. Both would replace plate wearing sword swinging meatshields.

Quietus
2009-07-03, 08:22 PM
And through it all, the Mennonites/Amish will remain blissfully apart from both.

sonofzeal
2009-07-03, 08:57 PM
1.)
In a Dark Ages, no magic, otherwise standard D&D world, roughly modern technology comes into use at the same time D&D-esque magic does (think alien intervention/Shadowrun).
The two forces loath eachother. Natural rivals, they fall at eachothers throats and a bloody war ensues. Magic is potentially more powerful, but tech can put a gun in anyone's hands. A few brave souls try to wield both, and tend to have short but exciting lives that lend themselves well to heroic fiction.

2.)
In a modernish world, D&D-type magic comes suddenly in (think Shadowrun).
Magic wins. More precisely, magic users cheat like crazy, completely undermine the system and exploit it ruthlessly. By the time everyone else catches on it's too late, and the new mageocracy rules with an ironskin fist. They (the high mages, something between CEOs and tyrants) may even go so far as to outlaw tech, to help preserve their dominance, and then go about bickering between eachother with the mundanes caught in the middle.

3.)
In a Dark Ages, otherwise standard D&D world, modern-ish technology suddenly comes into use (think alien intervention).
Tech springing up in mage-land? I think it integrates seamlessly, accepted by the population and rulers as just a new sort of magic, with boomsticks instead of wands and laptops instead of seeing stones. Technomancers come to power alongside the mages, and both believe their own path is superior but treat the other with begrudging respect.

GreatWyrmGold
2009-07-04, 10:41 AM
1.)
In a Dark Ages, no magic, otherwise standard D&D world, roughly modern technology comes into use at the same time D&D-esque magic does (think alien intervention/Shadowrun).
The two forces loath eachother. Natural rivals, they fall at eachothers throats and a bloody war ensues. Magic is potentially more powerful, but tech can put a gun in anyone's hands. A few brave souls try to wield both, and tend to have short but exciting lives that lend themselves well to heroic fiction.
Why a war?
Plus, magic+tech=great D&D character...I might have to make a campaign out of this...somehow...


2.)
In a modernish world, D&D-type magic comes suddenly in (think Shadowrun).
Magic wins. More precisely, magic users cheat like crazy, completely undermine the system and exploit it ruthlessly. By the time everyone else catches on it's too late, and the new mageocracy rules with an ironskin fist. They (the high mages, something between CEOs and tyrants) may even go so far as to outlaw tech, to help preserve their dominance, and then go about bickering between eachother with the mundanes caught in the middle.
I can definatly see mages doing that. :smalltongue:


3.)
In a Dark Ages, otherwise standard D&D world, modern-ish technology suddenly comes into use (think alien intervention).
Tech springing up in mage-land? I think it integrates seamlessly, accepted by the population and rulers as just a new sort of magic, with boomsticks instead of wands and laptops instead of seeing stones. Technomancers come to power alongside the mages, and both believe their own path is superior but treat the other with begrudging respect.
Cool. Hmm...technomancer base class...I think that's viable.















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