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View Full Version : 4e- Eberron Weapons, useful?



Asbestos
2009-06-30, 10:02 PM
Seriously, beyond versatile weapons and two-handed weapons that a small character can use just fine I really don't see anything in there that qualifies as 'superior'. Any thoughts? Am I not giving boomerangs enough slack? Is the ring cutter (or whatever) really not inferior to the spiked shield?

Burley
2009-07-01, 06:55 AM
I've been wondering the same thing. They all look a little not impressive mechanically. I'd be more inclined to say "For Roleplay Value" if they included pictures of some of these weapons... anywhere.
I mean, is the Ring Cutter like a chakram or like a pizza cutter?

Shadow_Elf
2009-07-01, 11:22 AM
I've been wondering the same thing. They all look a little not impressive mechanically. I'd be more inclined to say "For Roleplay Value" if they included pictures of some of these weapons... anywhere.
I mean, is the Ring Cutter like a chakram or like a pizza cutter?

I think it implies that it is more like a pizza cutter, as a chakram is a throwing weapon first and foremost, and this implies some sort of handle it spins through, IIRC (I read this out of a friend's copy of the book, but we all agreed it was a pizza cutter). In my brief glance, however, I was extremely dissapointed. The Drow Long Knife is just... so terrible. Its like a katar, except -1 proficiency, -high crit, +light thrown, and then its a heavy blade. What's up with that? I'm all for throwing heavy blades, but that's just embarrassingly bad!

Burley
2009-07-01, 12:23 PM
i don't remember who exactly said it, but when the 4e Eberron book first came out, a thread went up asking for opinions on it. Somebody on that thread said they had ideas for the Drow Long Knife, but they trailed of into elipses...
Maybe find the thread and ask the nutter who nutted the knifes?

Thajocoth
2009-07-01, 12:36 PM
You know the Dwarven Weapon Training & Eladrin Soldier feats? These weapons are for the Halfling & Drow equivalent. I'm not saying they're as good, but a single feat to get a few superior weapons with a damage bonus is still nice... Even if it's not exactly a Mordenkrad.

Tavenknaughtlin
2009-07-01, 12:59 PM
The Drow Long Knife is exceptional due to it's capability of being a melee weapon, ranged weapon, and implement all in one. Very useful for an Artificer.

Alteran
2009-07-01, 01:44 PM
The Drow Long Knife is just... so terrible. Its like a katar, except -1 proficiency, -high crit, +light thrown, and then its a heavy blade. What's up with that? I'm all for throwing heavy blades, but that's just embarrassingly bad!

You just made me think of something. I think it would work pretty well if it was superior, +2 prof, d8, light thrown, light blade. That would be sort of a cross between a rapier and a dagger for a rogue. I know in my experience (and yours) that rogues sometimes take both of those if they're willing to lose the Rogue Weapon Talent bonus on melee attacks. The attack bonus would suffer, but it might be reasonable to allow it to work with Rogue Weapon Talent. Right now it's light thrown, but a heavy blade. That doesn't make much sense to me, and it means that rogues can't get any use out of it.

Godric
2009-07-01, 01:50 PM
People on the main dnd boards will post and say 'These new epic destinies/paragon paths/magic items/feats/etc aren't anything to write home about".

I see this as a very good thing - what you are getting are things comparable in strength to what's come before, just different. It is a visible effort by the creators to stop power creep in 4e.

Gralamin
2009-07-01, 02:18 PM
I think it implies that it is more like a pizza cutter, as a chakram is a throwing weapon first and foremost, and this implies some sort of handle it spins through, IIRC (I read this out of a friend's copy of the book, but we all agreed it was a pizza cutter). In my brief glance, however, I was extremely dissapointed. The Drow Long Knife is just... so terrible. Its like a katar, except -1 proficiency, -high crit, +light thrown, and then its a heavy blade. What's up with that? I'm all for throwing heavy blades, but that's just embarrassingly bad!

The Drow Long Knife is +3 proficiency. Its Also off-hand.
The Cutting Wheel is +2 1d6 Defensive, Off Hand Light Blade, which makes all around better then the Parrying Dagger.
The Talenta Tangat is the Equivalent of a Tratnyr, trading Heavy thrown for High Crit, and Small character usage.

The Talenta Sharrash is two weapon types (Thus allowing a few more uses then other weapons), as well as High crit and useable by a small character - All Halfling and Gnome's who go two-handed will likely be taking it. It's not great for a medium wielder, but it's not bad.

The Double Scimitar is a bit worse then the Double Flail, but has High Crit.
The Zulaat is about equivalent to the Double Sword.

The Boomerangs, notably, return to your hand after your attack, which usually happens when an item becomes magical and is thrown. Otherwise, they seem mostly more flavorful weapons.

Here's some images for you:

This guy is most likely holding a Cutting wheel:
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/roe_gallery/88247.jpg
Here we have a variety of weapons: The Tangat, Sharrash, Double Scimitar and boomerangs.
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/eb_gallery/82109.jpg

I currently don't know of any images for the Zulaat or Drow Long Knife.

ImperiousLeader
2009-07-01, 02:57 PM
The Drow Long Knife is the only all-in-one weapon for the Artificer aside from the Dagger. With the feat Arcane Implement Proficiency (Heavy Blade), Artificers can use all their powers with a single Drow Long Knife. It's really good for that reason in particular.

The Double Scimitar is fine, but really deserves +3 Prof, I'm hoping a Valenar Elf Feat would grant that.

The Boomerangs are kinda underwhelming, but the Talenta and Xen'Drik weapon feats grant those proficiencies along with better weapons, so while they don't seem to be worth the WP feat, they're an acceptable bonus.

Asbestos
2009-07-01, 04:49 PM
The Cutting Wheel is +2 1d6 Defensive, Off Hand Light Blade, which makes all around better then the Parrying Dagger.


Well, not really, because the Parrying Dagger is still (most importantly) a dagger. Also, what about the Spiked Shield? Its a +2, 1d6, off-hand light blade that is a light shield rather than defensive (+1 AC and Ref rather than just AC)... though... do you need light shield prof AND the weapon prof to use the damn thing properly?

Colmarr
2009-07-01, 05:38 PM
The Double Scimitar is fine, but really deserves +3 Prof, I'm hoping a Valenar Elf Feat would grant that.

If a scimitar is +2 proficiency, why do you think the double scimitar deserves +3?

zerombr
2009-07-01, 05:41 PM
I've been wondering the same thing. They all look a little not impressive mechanically. I'd be more inclined to say "For Roleplay Value" if they included pictures of some of these weapons... anywhere.
I mean, is the Ring Cutter like a chakram or like a pizza cutter?


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/67/Tira-soul3art.png

DSCrankshaw
2009-07-01, 06:55 PM
The fact that the drow long knife is heavy thrown, d6, and +3 makes it superior--and its mostly in the +3. Blades tend to be higher proficiency (+3), and less damage. This does as much damage and has a higher proficiency than a throwing hammer or a handaxe (I'm hoping AV2 will have higher damage throwing hammers and axes--I love my DWT). And, as others have mentioned, it makes an all-in-one weapon, as it can be used to make ranged, melee, or implement attacks for Artificers. Bards too, for that matter, and without the arcane implement proficiency feat, as you can slap the songblade magical enhancement on it. Might be useful for rangers too. Maybe I should consider if for my bard MC ranger. Then take focused expertise (drow longblade) and you have all your implement, ranged, and melee powers covered. The downside is that you don't do as much damage or have as much range as you would carrying a longbow and a longsword, but there needs to be some price for the convenience and reduced feat burden.

ImperiousLeader
2009-07-02, 02:31 PM
If a scimitar is +2 proficiency, why do you think the double scimitar deserves +3?

Scimitar also has 1d8 damage, should the double scimitar? I didn't balance it against the double flail, I was thinking making the Double Scimitar closer to the Double Sword. Which is admittedly on the overpowered side, but that's primarily due to having both the heavy and light blade weapon groups.

Sinfire Titan
2009-07-02, 02:58 PM
Snip

Zuulat and Drow Long Knife are in Secrets of Sarlona and Secrets of Xen'Drik, respectively. That was the original printing, but I don't remember if the Drow Long Knife had art.
Zulaat is the pink one in the middle of this image. (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/sarlona_gallery/102999.jpg)

Burley
2009-07-02, 03:11 PM
Well, not really, because the Parrying Dagger is still (most importantly) a dagger.

Well, not really, because it's not. Unless you houserule that it is. A dagger is the only thing that is a dagger. A Parrying Dagger is a light blade. The only time it counts as a dagger, is for a rogue. And, even then, it is only for the Rogue Weapon Talent class feature.
For your consideration, the foot note for the Parrying Dagger on page 9 of the Adventurer's Vault:

A rogue proficient with this weapon can treat it as a dagger for the purpose of the Rogue Weapon Talent class feature.

Ravens_cry
2009-07-02, 03:23 PM
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/67/Tira-soul3art.png

I am all for rule of cool ,but. . .how do you hold that thing?

Sinfire Titan
2009-07-02, 03:25 PM
I am all for rule of cool ,but. . .how do you hold that thing?

Do you see the handles? Beneath the large spines that stick out?



And I don't mean love handles, no matter how much anyone may want to grab her's.

skywalker
2009-07-02, 04:07 PM
Well, not really, because it's not. Unless you houserule that it is. A dagger is the only thing that is a dagger. A Parrying Dagger is a light blade. The only time it counts as a dagger, is for a rogue. And, even then, it is only for the Rogue Weapon Talent class feature.
For your consideration, the foot note for the Parrying Dagger on page 9 of the Adventurer's Vault:

That's the only time it would be important for it to qualify as a dagger. No other class has any features based solely off of daggers, that I'm aware of.

Asbestos actually made a really good point.

Gralamin
2009-07-02, 04:28 PM
Zuulat and Drow Long Knife are in Secrets of Sarlona and Secrets of Xen'Drik, respectively. That was the original printing, but I don't remember if the Drow Long Knife had art.
Zulaat is the pink one in the middle of this image. (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/sarlona_gallery/102999.jpg)

I Forgot to check Secrets of Sarlona, that should of been obvious, But Notably the Drow Long Knife was statted out in both Races of Eberron (Pg 172) and Secrets of Xen'Drik (Pg 136). Races of Eberron preceds Secrets of Xen'Drik by at least a year, so it wasn't the "original printing" :smallwink:


Well, not really, because the Parrying Dagger is still (most importantly) a dagger.

As stated, its only a dagger for the purposes of Rogue Weapon Talent. Which means, for example, It's not a Monk Weapon.


Also, what about the Spiked Shield? Its a +2, 1d6, off-hand light blade that is a light shield rather than defensive (+1 AC and Ref rather than just AC)... though... do you need light shield prof AND the weapon prof to use the damn thing properly?
I imagine you would. That double restriction makes it unrealistic for many classes, so Cutting wheel is probably a better weapon for them.

Edit:

That's the only time it would be important for it to qualify as a dagger. No other class has any features based solely off of daggers, that I'm aware of.

Asbestos actually made a really good point.

See Above :smalltongue:

skywalker
2009-07-03, 01:37 PM
As stated, its only a dagger for the purposes of Rogue Weapon Talent. Which means, for example, It's not a Monk Weapon.

Edit:


See Above :smalltongue:

I don't read the playtest rules, so I have no idea, but I doubt daggers are as important to monks as they are to rogues.

I could be completely wrong. But I doubt it.

Burley
2009-07-06, 06:42 AM
Also, Skywalker: Sorcerers. Half their feats and are dagger based. If you can have a dagger, or a dagger that gives you a bonus to AC, which would you pick?
This is why Parrying Dagger =/= Dagger.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-07-06, 08:23 AM
I see this as a very good thing - what you are getting are things comparable in strength to what's come before, just different. It is a visible effort by the creators to stop power creep in 4e.

There's a difference between "comparable in strength to what came before, just different" and "so similar to what came before that's it's not different or good enough to be worth any resources." There's only so many times you can shuffle around a +2 proficiency bonus and 1d6 damage before you get things like:


The Drow Long Knife is just... so terrible. Its like a katar, except -1 proficiency, -high crit, +light thrown, and then its a heavy blade. What's up with that? I'm all for throwing heavy blades, but that's just embarrassingly bad!

Yes, there are good aspects (like Drow Long Knife being an all-in-one weapon), but that doesn't excuse things like the boomerang, which get nothing enchanted weapons don't get.

Gralamin
2009-07-06, 04:00 PM
I don't read the playtest rules, so I have no idea, but I doubt daggers are as important to monks as they are to rogues.

I could be completely wrong. But I doubt it.

There are more features that impacts if you take a look for them. Daggermaster, for instance, cannot use Parrying Daggers for its abilities.

koesherbacon
2010-09-19, 11:08 PM
I believe this is my first post here, and I only stumbled on this topic because I was searching for images of the talenta weapons on google images.

Anyway, I didn't see it brought up here before so I figured I'd put in a little observation I just made with the CB. For some, they'll say it's not worth the two feats, but I think adding Weapon Prof Talenta Sharrash and Hafted Defense for any Small character wishing to use his/her weapons to gain a defensive advantage. Add the magic item property Goblin Totem to it, and you've got yourself a pretty sweet set up. Just about every enemy in the game is going to be larger than you are - especially as you advance in levels, so that's an automatic extra enchantment bonus to your damage. Throw in the automatic defensive properties of a light shield and you've got yourself a recipe for both a flavorful character and success in the game! :wink:

NEO|Phyte
2010-09-19, 11:12 PM
The Drow Long Knife is just... so terrible. Its like a katar, except -1 proficiency, -high crit, +light thrown, and then its a heavy blade. What's up with that? I'm all for throwing heavy blades, but that's just embarrassingly bad!

Uh, what? It's got the same +3 prof, and it's HEAVY thrown. Heavy thrown being a nice thing, since it means my Stradin can RBA things half decently when they choose to not be in regular smiting range. Also has the offhand property, meaning if I'm a warforged, I can smuggle one into 'secure' areas as an embedded weapon.

:edit: ohay, look at them post dates.

Vaynor
2010-09-20, 03:18 AM
The Red Towel: Thread necromancy.