Why use Comoner over Humanoid HD?

[Kobold-Bard]

Wouldn't it make more sense for nameless NPC's etc. to just take Humanoid Racial Hit Dice? Better than Commoner in every conceivable way, but not good enough to be considered a threat to PC's, which is basically the Commoner's shtick.

I understand the use for the other NPC classes, but noticing this has made Commoner seem completely pointless, even as a method for giving recognisable stats to the masses.

[BobVosh]

Just remember that if you do that, commoners from another plane are gods in comparison. D10, 8+int skills with a great list, and all good saves. I would totally have a high enough level cleric/wizard cast plane shift for my baby's delivery. Or conception. Not really clear how it works, tbh. Just want to score native outsider to another plane.

[Kobold-Bard]

Just remember that if you do that, commoners from another plane are gods in comparison. D10, 8+int skills with a great list, and all good saves. I would totally have a high enough level cleric/wizard cast plane shift for my baby's delivery. Or conception. Not really clear how it works, tbh. Just want to score native outsider to another plane.

Damn, I did not think this through. Wow.

Sorry for wasting Forum space.

[BobVosh]

Damn, I did not think this through. Wow.

Sorry for wasting Forum space.

Noone quite understands why space bums are better than fine upstanding working class/mayor types on our planet. Its easy to try to forget that.

Although it would be hilarious to pull that on your players. Say you will switch commoner levels with the appropiate HD. Warn them they are entering a high level town, but still all HD. If they mess up they are facing an incrediably dangerous mob using the DMG 2 rules.

Mention sometime that there is a teleportation circle to the Positive Energy plane. (heals automatically all damage from pregnancy!) Make it a horrible seeming ritual involved where they cut themselves and lose HP in various cult type ways before going through the mystic circle.(so they don't have death by awesome) If done right you can have fun with this.

[Jayngfet]

Why shouldn't commoners on another plane get better HD? It's still more of leess no real threat to the PC's if some 1hd outsider farmer gets pissy. And you've got to remember that these are celestials and fiends we're talking about, so powerful even the worst non druid spellcaster often feels the need to fling between universes.

[BobVosh]

Why shouldn't commoners on another plane get better HD? It's still more of leess no real threat to the PC's if some 1hd outsider farmer gets pissy. And you've got to remember that these are celestials and fiends we're talking about, so powerful even the worst non druid spellcaster often feels the need to fling between universes.

Many many planes that aren't Abyss/Celestia/whereever.

Not that it really makes sense, as Eberronian is an outsider to a Greyhawker. But there you have it.

Also don't forget a level 21 commoner is completely possible with DMG's build-a-city. If it is outsiders HD, with a proper epic feat, he is a serious threat.

[Zaq]

This is a common misconception. Outsider does not mean "native to another plane." (That's what the [Extraplanar] subtype is for.) Outsider means "partially or fully composed of the essence of a particular plane." So two humans having a baby won't make it stop being humanoid, no matter where it's conceived, brought to term, or born. At least not without serious let's-combine-owls-with-bears magical shenanigans.

[Coidzor]

Good for the DM to have options like that.

[Jayngfet]

Many many planes that aren't Abyss/Celestia/whereever.

Not that it really makes sense, as Eberronian is an outsider to a Greyhawker. But there you have it.

Also don't forget a level 21 commoner is completely possible with DMG's build-a-city. If it is outsiders HD, with a proper epic feat, he is a serious threat.

Of course one wonders what the outsider is doing at level 21 without picking up a PC class, since he's apparently fourght enough people to staff a large army, many of the people in which could tear apart villages single handedly.

[Irreverent Fool]

Wouldn't it make more sense for nameless NPC's etc. to just take Humanoid Racial Hit Dice? Better than Commoner in every conceivable way, but not good enough to be considered a threat to PC's, which is basically the Commoner's shtick.

I understand the use for the other NPC classes, but noticing this has made Commoner seem completely pointless, even as a method for giving recognisable stats to the masses.

It would make more sense for fighters to take levels in wizard too. :smallwink:
The thing is, commoners are normal people who get torn apart by creatures such as Gnolls (which have humanoid levels). They are people who are used to being protected by their society. Humanoid levels seem to represent a creature in more of a 'state of nature'. So your hermit, lumberjack, or mountain man may have humanoid levels, but the guys who plow fields or offer to carry your stuff near the docks probably don't.

That's my take on it, anyhow.

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[The Rose Dragon]

Racial hit dice cannot be taken unless you actually have racial hit dice in the first place.

So, humans can no more gain levels in Humanoid than Aasimar can gain levels in Outsider.

[Yuki Akuma]

Racial hit dice measure the basic "power level" of a creature. Gnolls are far superior to humans in every way, so they get more hit dice.

Humans, being the creature type everything else is extrapolated from, only have one racial hit die. A humanoid with one racial hit die always replaces it with a class level when he becomes an adult.

So a child might have, say, 1/3 of a Humanoid RHD, but when he grows up he'll swap it out for a level of Commoner. Or Fighter, or whatever.

[MickJay]

Of course one wonders what the outsider is doing at level 21 without picking up a PC class, since he's apparently fourght enough people to staff a large army, many of the people in which could tear apart villages single handedly.

...or he's just the best baker in the world.

[KillianHawkeye]

Because Humanoids always (or almost always) advance by character level, not by Hit Dice. It's as simple as that.

To explain a bit, racial Hit Dice usually show how powerful a basic version of a creature is. The average creature with RHD like a Gnoll or an Ogre is just naturally tougher than a Human whose HD is based on only class and level. But even Gnolls advance by class instead of Hit Dice, because they aren't getting inherently tougher as a creature, they are training and gaining new skills and abilities.

On the other hand, creatures which do advance by Hit Dice are usually hardcore monsters, like dragons, who actually do just get tougher and tougher as monsters. It's because they have some natural abilities that are actually worth improving on so that they don't need to study or train to advance. Whereas Humanoids don't have any useful natural abilities, so they advance by training into class levels.


To sum up, racial Hit Dice and Commoner class levels represent different things. It probably wouldn't be game-breaking to swap them, but it's not particularly necessary since Commoners aren't supposed to get into fights. After all, it's not like those uppity farmers are too worried about CharOp. :smallwink:

[warmachine]

I always thought modelling a fundamental aspect correctly makes the rest of the design intuitive and elegant and features can be added without collapsing into a swamp of rules patches and exceptions. Multiclassing and prestige classes can automatically and cleanly mesh with future classes. But then we have skill points and HP differing at 1st level, making a Fighter 1/Rogue 1 different from a Rogue 1/Fighter 1. The Warrior class does the same job as Fighter but is worse in every way. And, in this case, the Commoner class is worse than any PC class in every way.

This suggests a fundamental mistake. Now, characters get more skill points at 1st level so their class skills have a significant edge over their untrained colleagues, HP differs at 1st level so one hit doesn't knock them down and NPC classes suck so the PCs are heroic. However, capability, including skills and HP, roughly depends on level.

The mistake is to use class to describe the superiority of PCs, not level. Class should merely describe the types of capability. Making PCs start at 3rd level means the 4x skill points at 1st level can be dropped without class skills sucking, 3 HD means they're less fragile and a 2HD advantage explains why the NPCs are running to the heroes for help. The Warrior class can be dumped, making guards 1st level Fighters but still inferior to the PCs.

The Commoner class can have d6 Hit Dice, good Fort save, 4+INT skill points/level and Skill Focus (Craft) and Skill Focus (Profession) class features, making them not suck in every way and really good at making things. Players do not feel belittled by the aged, 3rd level Commoner who can thrash them at basketweaving. Commoner would even be a viable class choice if, for some reason, basketweaving was useful in a campaign.

[J.Gellert]

Just remember that if you do that, commoners from another plane are gods in comparison. D10, 8+int skills with a great list, and all good saves. I would totally have a high enough level cleric/wizard cast plane shift for my baby's delivery. Or conception. Not really clear how it works, tbh. Just want to score native outsider to another plane.

Isn't how that it works?

I mean, it worked for Superman... He couldn't possibly have gained class levels before leaving Crypton. :smallcool:

[Mando Knight]

Isn't how that it works?
Ah, no? A human born in the Positive Energy Plane is still a human...

I mean, it worked for Superman... He couldn't possibly have gained class levels before leaving Crypton. :smallcool:
He's not Human. He's Outsider (Native) because he's a Kryptonian.

[The Glyphstone]

Technically, as Zaq mentioned above, he's a Humanoid with the [Extraterrestrial] and [Kryptonian] subtypes.

[Indon]

If only humans had the ability to advance by RHD.

Unfortunately, humans are one of those races capable only of advancing by character class.

Really, if you're going to ask why pick commoner, the obvious alternative would be Expert (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/npcClasses/expert.htm). Why be a commoner farmer when you could be an Expert and just pick whatever your profession would be as one of your ten class skills?

Then pick nine other things you're interested in and be awesome at them, too.

[Random832]

And anyway, Superman doesn't have a large number of hit points, he just has DR 9001/Magic when he has recently been exposed to sunlight (disabled by presence of Kryptonite)

[The Glyphstone]

Exactly - the [Kryptonian] subtype imparts a large number of bonuses, including extremely high DR and very substantial Strength and Dexterity modifiers, when exposed to the light of a yellow sun. Also, another creature with the subtype can bypass the immunities granted by it, similar to how creatures with inherent DR ignore that type of DR for their attacks.

[Teron]

similar to how creatures with inherent DR ignore that type of DR for their attacks.
Why does everyone think that? It's only true for DR x/magic.

[J.Gellert]

Don't think about it too hard :smalltongue: I was just pointing out how you apparently grow in strength when you leave your home plane (Commoner on Crypton -> God on Earth). Of course Superman isn't just an outsider.

[Thurbane]

Not precisely racial HD, but they could take 3 levels of Human Paragon.

[ericgrau]

Advancement by HD represents a creature getting bigger and badder. It's more common for animal advancement. Outside of some flukes like a certain wrestler ("stop it I mean it / does anybody have a peanut?"), it doesn't really happen with humans.

[Bayar]

I always thought modelling a fundamental aspect correctly makes the rest of the design intuitive and elegant and features can be added without collapsing into a swamp of rules patches and exceptions. Multiclassing and prestige classes can automatically and cleanly mesh with future classes. But then we have skill points and HP differing at 1st level, making a Fighter 1/Rogue 1 different from a Rogue 1/Fighter 1. The Warrior class does the same job as Fighter but is worse in every way. And, in this case, the Commoner class is worse than any PC class in every way.

This suggests a fundamental mistake. Now, characters get more skill points at 1st level so their class skills have a significant edge over their untrained colleagues, HP differs at 1st level so one hit doesn't knock them down and NPC classes suck so the PCs are heroic. However, capability, including skills and HP, roughly depends on level.

The mistake is to use class to describe the superiority of PCs, not level. Class should merely describe the types of capability. Making PCs start at 3rd level means the 4x skill points at 1st level can be dropped without class skills sucking, 3 HD means they're less fragile and a 2HD advantage explains why the NPCs are running to the heroes for help. The Warrior class can be dumped, making guards 1st level Fighters but still inferior to the PCs.

The Commoner class can have d6 Hit Dice, good Fort save, 4+INT skill points/level and Skill Focus (Craft) and Skill Focus (Profession) class features, making them not suck in every way and really good at making things. Players do not feel belittled by the aged, 3rd level Commoner who can thrash them at basketweaving. Commoner would even be a viable class choice if, for some reason, basketweaving was useful in a campaign.

Read up the basketweaver handbook over at the CharOP boards. Drunken masters dual wielding oversized baskets are awesome.

[The Rose Dragon]

Why does everyone think that? It's only true for DR x/magic.

3rd Edition rules. Where there was no DR -/magic, but instead there was DR-/+(number). Anything with DR could overcome lesser DR with their natural weapons (which included smaller numbers and any exotic materials).

[Indon]

Why does everyone think that? It's only true for DR x/magic.

And alignment DR as well, I thought.

[The Rose Dragon]

And alignment DR as well, I thought.

Yes, it makes perfect sense that a devil's claws act as Good-aligned weapons for purposes of overcoming damage reduction.

Obviously. :smalltongue:

[Indon]

Yes, it makes perfect sense that a devil's claws act as Good-aligned weapons for purposes of overcoming damage reduction.

Obviously. :smalltongue:

Of course.

But seriously, I was referring to the ability of devils to overcome DR/evil. I was indeed surprised to learn that alignment DR penetration was actually slightly easier to get than that:


A creature with an alignment subtype (chaotic, evil, good, or lawful) can overcome this type of damage reduction with its natural weapons and weapons it wields as if the weapons or natural weapons had an alignment (or alignments) that match the subtype(s) of the creature.

I thought that only devils that had DR overcame DR/Evil, turns out they all can.

And as it turns out, it applies to DR/Magic and DR/Epic.

[SoD]

Of course one wonders what the outsider is doing at level 21 without picking up a PC class, since he's apparently fourght enough people to staff a large army, many of the people in which could tear apart villages single handedly.

Since when? He's just an elven commoner, who lived for a very long time and got lots of roleplaying XP. NPC's living their day to day life slowly gather up XP purely by being themselves...

[Irreverent Fool]

Since when? He's just an elven commoner, who lived for a very long time and got lots of roleplaying XP. NPC's living their day to day life slowly gather up XP purely by being themselves...

I find that ridiculous. I see no reason that a character cannot go through life without gaining any levels. Being an exceptional baker should not grant you a base attack bonus and more hp. (Which is why I love the Economicon (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=9483527&postcount=5).)

obnoxious
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[Sstoopidtallkid]

Yes, it makes perfect sense that a devil's claws act as Good-aligned weapons for purposes of overcoming damage reduction.

Obviously. :smalltongue:It's better than the alternative, where the blood war is being fought by an infinite and a NI army, both of whose basic troops cannot actually do anything to one another.

[The Rose Dragon]

It's better than the alternative, where the blood war is being fought by an infinite and a NI army, both of whose basic troops cannot actually do anything to one another.

That sounds like a perfect explanation for why the damn thing hasn't ended for centuries, actually.

[Devils_Advocate]

:smallconfused: Demon's and devils' weapons are Evil-aligned, not Good-aligned. They work against DR/Evil, not DR/Good; their alignment subtype helps them against celestials, not against other fiends.

[The Rose Dragon]

:smallconfused: Demon's and devils' weapons are Evil-aligned, not Good-aligned. They work against DR/Evil, not DR/Good; their alignment subtype helps them against celestials, not against other fiends.

That's what I'm saying!

[Random832]

One assumes that for fighting demons, devils use cold iron weapons (and vice versa / silver)

[Sstoopidtallkid]

:smallconfused: Demon's and devils' weapons are Evil-aligned, not Good-aligned. They work against DR/Evil, not DR/Good; their alignment subtype helps them against celestials, not against other fiends.I know. But as-written, the Devils are fielding an army of Lemures that deal 0 damage to the weakest devils on anything short of a crit. That's not right, either.