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HMS Invincible
2009-06-30, 11:27 PM
When a party first meets an encounter such as a group of bandits, how obvious should the leader, minions, and normal people be? Would it be metagaming to ask what class I think they are or if I can pick out minions? Or do you guys keep it a mystery and chuckle when they waste their encounter power on a minion?

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-06-30, 11:33 PM
There should be indicators. If one NPC is a leader, he should be calling orders, with better gear, or actively protected by the others. A Striker or Tank ought to be built better for combat than the minions, and should again have better(or at least different) gear. Minions are mooks. They're generic, there should be several of them, all basically interchangable. Anyone with different stats should have that reflected in some way. Not necessarily obvious, but the PCs should be able to tell.

RTGoodman
2009-06-30, 11:33 PM
It should always be obvious which monsters are minions, which are solos, and so forth. That said, you don't have to flat-out say it.

A group of kobold minions might be "a rag-tag cluster of small reptilians with crude spears and battered shields." The Elite dragonwrought kobold warrior is "a muscular reptilian creature with thicker scales, a well-forged blade, and a heavy dragon-scale shield, who orders the others around." Just change your descriptions a bit, and it should be fine.

BobVosh
2009-06-30, 11:49 PM
Its a bit of a tradition at my table to use stormtroopers minis as minions. (one goblin fight was huge, with 30 of the buggers. What else was so prolific as stormtroopers?)

Basically we use minions are obvious, and solos are as well. Go off a discription for the rest.

BillyJimBoBob
2009-07-02, 12:46 PM
When a party first meets an encounter such as a group of bandits, how obvious should the leader, minions, and normal people be? Would it be metagaming to ask what class I think they are or if I can pick out minions? Or do you guys keep it a mystery and chuckle when they waste their encounter power on a minion?It would be meta-gaming. For that reason I scrambled up the described equipment for the kobolds in KotS, so that the players couldn't ever say something like "That one has a spear, hit it with an at-will and it'll die," or "That one has a shield and a sword, it's a dragon warrior so it'll take a few hits to go down."

The mechanic of minions is a good one, but only if it isn't used to facilitate meta-game decisions. It's fine to have an opponent who drops in a single blow, but it's lame if you know that any given opponent will drop with a single blow. It is realistic to finish some foes quickly while having to trade blows with some others before defeating them, but it destroys verisimilitude if you can look at a group of foes and point out the ones who will go down quickly.

The slingers and priests are quickly identified by their first attack action, of course, and there's nothing wrong with that. And using descriptive text to lend narrative weight and suspense to a mini-boss fight such as with Ironthingy is fine, too. But for more rank and file type foes there is nothing gained by identifying the minions to the players.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-07-02, 12:54 PM
It would be meta-gaming. For that reason I scrambled up the described equipment for the kobolds in KotS, so that the players couldn't ever say something like "That one has a spear, hit it with an at-will and it'll die," or "That one has a shield and a sword, it's a dragon warrior so it'll take a few hits to go down."

The mechanic of minions is a good one, but only if it isn't used to facilitate meta-game decisions. It's fine to have an opponent who drops in a single blow, but it's lame if you know that any given opponent will drop with a single blow. It is realistic to finish some foes quickly while having to trade blows with some others before defeating them, but it destroys verisimilitude if you can look at a group of foes and point out the ones who will go down quickly.

The slingers and priests are quickly identified by their first attack action, of course, and there's nothing wrong with that. And using descriptive text to lend narrative weight and suspense to a mini-boss fight such as with Ironthingy is fine, too. But for more rank and file type foes there is nothing gained by identifying the minions to the players.The point of the minion mechanic is to represent mooks, the nameless faceless enemies that heroes can mow down with little trouble. If an enemy isn't a mook, there should be some indication of it IMHO.

Kurald Galain
2009-07-02, 01:00 PM
When a party first meets an encounter such as a group of bandits, how obvious should the leader, minions, and normal people be?
Interesting question. Some players (and DMs) around here swear that the game is unbalanced unless you tell in advance what the minions are; others (including me) disagree and prefer the mystery. Of course, on the grid, minions tend to be represented by counters or candy, since most DMs lack 10+ of the same miniatures to represent them clearly.

Some players also claim that you can essentially know a creature's stat block given a halfway-decent knowledge check. For what it's worth, the overall design of 4E is to give the players all the information as they want (barring e.g. invisible monsters), so that they can make informed decisions.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-07-02, 01:08 PM
Interesting question. Some players (and DMs) around here swear that the game is unbalanced unless you tell in advance what the minions are; others (including me) disagree and prefer the mystery. Of course, on the grid, minions tend to be represented by counters or candy, since most DMs lack 10+ of the same miniatures to represent them clearly.

Some players also claim that you can essentially know a creature's stat block given a halfway-decent knowledge check. For what it's worth, the overall design of 4E is to give the players all the information as they want (barring e.g. invisible monsters), so that they can make informed decisions.I'm not saying give them the stats, or saying 'there's a bunch of minions and a caster', just giving an indication. For example:
As you come out of the woods, you see your path blocked by a veritable mountain of an orc. After a few seconds, you notice that there's more orcs than just the one, though none as big, arrayed behind him. Roll perception...you also spot an orc off in the trees to the east with a longbow and 2 arrows held to the string.

Tank, minions, and a ranged striker. Nothing metagamey, but the players can tell appx what the enemies will be capable of, just like their characters would be able to.

Ninetail
2009-07-03, 01:05 AM
When a party first meets an encounter such as a group of bandits, how obvious should the leader, minions, and normal people be?

Matter of taste.

I usually try to give an indication in my description. I very rarely come out and say "this is a minion." However, I also don't present minions as grave and serious threats. They tend to be obviously weaker-looking in some way -- scrawny, poor gear, or 'obsolete' (a group of ogres when the party is paragon level, for instance). Players can generally pick out which enemies are minions, which is more or less how I think it should go.


Would it be metagaming to ask what class I think they are or if I can pick out minions?

The first is definitely metagaming. Your character has no concept of a class, after all.

The second is phrased in a metagame-y way, but it isn't necessarily metagaming. If you were to ask, instead, "Which of these enemies does my character think are weakest?"... well, I'd be fine with that. There might be cases where it wouldn't work -- things you've never even heard of before, or some manner of illusion or other misinformation at work -- but in general, you're an experienced adventurer, your judgement in the matter should be pretty good. Especially with the right trained skills.

Kyeudo
2009-07-03, 01:14 AM
Whichever you choose, make sure it swings both ways. If your party can't immediately pick out the defender in chain mail from the striker in chain mail, them opponents shouldn't be able to do so either.