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Jack Zander
2009-07-01, 12:10 AM
I just thought of a new way to treat multiclassing, but I'd like to know if you guys think it's balanced or not.

You level up as normal in a single class, but when you wish to take a second class, instead of waiting for several thousand XP to learn the basics of being a fighter, rogue, etc. you only pay 1,000 XP for your first level, as if you have two (or more) separate XP charts (one for every class).
Instead of gaining the bonuses of each class, you are treated as a gestalt character. Your BAB and Base Saves only increase if they are better than what your other class(es) would give you, but you gain all of the class abilities as normal. Your HPs/skills/skill points are determined from the classes that give you the highest Hit Dice first.
Your character level is equal to your total amount of XP, however, your Hit Dice may not be.
You gain character level dependent bonuses (such as feats and ability point increases) as per your total XP.

This makes multiclassing for certain character concepts a little more balanced (monk/paladin) but is easily able to break the game with cheaty-face multiclassing combos. Aside from that issue (which is really a DM/player issue), is there anything that would be unbalancing with treating multiclassing this way?

Eloel
2009-07-01, 12:29 AM
WAY too easy to break. Fighter 1/Monk 1/Ranger 1 gives you MANY feats, for 3k XP, and that's only a single level spent for like 4 feats, easily worth the trade.

Cedrass
2009-07-01, 12:47 AM
^ This, but if you talk to your players (assuming none of them is a jackass that might(has) already ruin(ed) a game) and tell them you want to try this out to allow for more unique characters, it could be fun.

Might steal your idea someday, when my actual campaign stops.

Draz74
2009-07-01, 01:06 AM
WAY too easy to break. Fighter 1/Monk 1/Ranger 1 gives you MANY feats, for 3k XP, and that's only a single level spent for like 4 feats, easily worth the trade.

But wait, you're still a (Gestalt) Level 1 Character, when your party is up to Level 3. Essentially you've already picked up a +2 LA. So ... maybe it's not so bad after all.

Myrmex
2009-07-01, 01:41 AM
An interesting concept! I've thought about implementing this, myself. I think it might extend the sweet spot of 3.5 D&D, but let them take on tougher encounters.



WAY too easy to break. Fighter 1/Monk 1/Ranger 1 gives you MANY feats, for 3k XP, and that's only a single level spent for like 4 feats, easily worth the trade.

Except you only have 10 HP, and will get wiped out fairly easy by spells like sleep or color spray. You also only have one BAB, and your saves, while all good, are still low.

While you may have a bunch of feats, they aren't particularly flashy. Your team mates will have spells like glitterdust, invisibility, or web, or 2d6 sneak attack damage, or, well, you get the idea.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-07-01, 02:26 AM
That works almost exactly like 2e multiclassing and dual-classing, though that system had little freedom of where to 'spend' your XP once you'd made the choice of what classes to take.

Reaper_Monkey
2009-07-01, 04:35 AM
I'd have a small bonus on the XP required for each additional multiclass you were taking, say XP required x (number of classes - 1)/10

This makes the the first multiclass 10% more expensive, and the second 20% more expensive again, thus stopping people having a bit of everything.

Also, I'd like to point out the problem with having characters "behind" on ECL, as they gain XP faster anyway. Also, if they're lower levels they would get equivalent encounters to a power threshold they no longer adhere to. Therefore you should count their ECL as their ECL for a character for their XP, rather than their actual "level".

The other thing I foresee as a clever cheat of this system is if I use a full BAB build (say fighter, the feats are fun in gestalt anyway), and use it along side a 3/4 or even half BAB build to shunt its actual BAB up.

You end up with a much more powerful character using this trick, even if its not used that much (a few thousand xp for a full BAB instead of a 3/4 is a huge difference, which would hardly dent you xp at the higher levels).

This could also be used with saves, as first levels of good saves are 2, and would always add a +1 save regardless of what else you were leveling as.

The easy way to fix this is to say that the levels always count as being in the level 1 slot so they don't stack with later levels with out actually leveling up to them.

All in all, its an interesting approach to the problem... I personally use the "defenestrate the rule and anyone who tries to now take advantage of the lack of it", which works perfectly actually.

Myrmex
2009-07-01, 11:35 AM
I'd have a small bonus on the XP required for each additional multiclass you were taking, say XP required x (number of classes - 1)/10

This makes the the first multiclass 10% more expensive, and the second 20% more expensive again, thus stopping people having a bit of everything.

Also, I'd like to point out the problem with having characters "behind" on ECL, as they gain XP faster anyway. Also, if they're lower levels they would get equivalent encounters to a power threshold they no longer adhere to. Therefore you should count their ECL as their ECL for a character for their XP, rather than their actual "level".

The other thing I foresee as a clever cheat of this system is if I use a full BAB build (say fighter, the feats are fun in gestalt anyway), and use it along side a 3/4 or even half BAB build to shunt its actual BAB up.

You end up with a much more powerful character using this trick, even if its not used that much (a few thousand xp for a full BAB instead of a 3/4 is a huge difference, which would hardly dent you xp at the higher levels).

This could also be used with saves, as first levels of good saves are 2, and would always add a +1 save regardless of what else you were leveling as.

The easy way to fix this is to say that the levels always count as being in the level 1 slot so they don't stack with later levels with out actually leveling up to them.

All in all, its an interesting approach to the problem... I personally use the "defenestrate the rule and anyone who tries to now take advantage of the lack of it", which works perfectly actually.

If you're really concerned about things that don't do anything, like BAB, then just use fractional BAB and saves.

Indon
2009-07-01, 11:39 AM
Senior Vorpal Kickasso approves of this houserule.

This isn't a balance complaint, but a complexity one: Say you're a Bard 3 and you take Fighter 1. Okay, so your maxed-out d6 HD is replaced, per gestalt rules, with a maxed-out d10 HD: you gain 4 hp. Now, what do you do if you subsequently take Fighter 2? How do you replace a non-maxed D6 HD with a non-maxed D10 HD?

SilverClawShift
2009-07-01, 11:42 AM
I have to say, this does seem like a lot more hassle than it would ever be worth implementing. It's actually a very clever idea, but it's a clever idea with so many questions raised, so much convuluted bookwork...

My group doesn't even use multiclassing XP penalties. Your penalty for being multiclassed is not gaining the new level in whatever class you were in :smalltongue:

Devils_Advocate
2009-07-01, 02:40 PM
How do you replace a non-maxed D6 HD with a non-maxed D10 HD?
Add two hit points.

Indon
2009-07-01, 03:22 PM
Add two hit points.

1D6+2 averages out to the same as 1d10, but is not a d10.

It is a viable solution to the problem, though. I was just wondering what the OP had in mind.

only1doug
2009-07-01, 03:51 PM
1D6+2 averages out to the same as 1d10, but is not a d10.

It is a viable solution to the problem, though. I was just wondering what the OP had in mind.

I'd use a D5-1 to upgrade from D6 to D10. (roll 1D10, a result of 1-2=0, 3-4=1, 5-6=2, 7-8=3, 9-10=4) this gives access to the full range of increased results with an equal chance of no increase.


statistically d6+d5-1 has 30 possible results
1-0=1
1-1=2
1-2=3
1-3=4
1-4=5
2-0=2
2-1=3
2-2=4
2-3=5
2-4=6
3-0=3
3-1=4
3-2=5
3-3=6
3-4=7
4-0=4
4-1=5
4-2=6
4-3=7
4-4=8
5-0=5
5-1=6
5-2=7
5-3=8
5-4=9
6-0=6
6-1=7
6-2=8
6-3=9
6-4=10

1's 1/30
2's 2/30
3's 3/30
4's 4/30
5's 5/30
6's 5/30
7's 4/30
8's 3/30
9's 2/30
10's 1/30

this method obviously has less chance of generating either a max or a min result but does give fair access to all potential increases if the D6 has already been rolled.

Jack Zander
2009-07-01, 04:08 PM
I like everything people have said so far but I can't reply in full right now. I will answer this though:


1D6+2 averages out to the same as 1d10, but is not a d10.

It is a viable solution to the problem, though. I was just wondering what the OP had in mind.

That's what I had in mind, but my group also takes the average rolls so there was no question in my mind when I first thought of it. For group that prefer to roll their stats, I would give them a reroll with the higher Hit Die, and take the higher of the two (so leveling never takes XP away).

It seems there are some kinks, but I bet they could be worked out easily enough if we thought about them.

Choco
2009-07-01, 04:14 PM
I have to say, this does seem like a lot more hassle than it would ever be worth implementing. It's actually a very clever idea, but it's a clever idea with so many questions raised, so much convuluted bookwork...

My group doesn't even use multiclassing XP penalties. Your penalty for being multiclassed is not gaining the new level in whatever class you were in :smalltongue:

Yeah, what she said...

Multiclassing penalties: one of the many things my group has ditched in favor of more fun, more badassery, and less bookkeeping...

Gnaeus
2009-07-01, 04:20 PM
Interesting. I think it would be too easy to break. Any optimized character could easily pick up the key abilities of other classes without falling behind significantly.

For example, a neutral druid 5 could take Monk 1 (Wis to AC), Cloistered Cleric 1 (turn attempts for Divine Metamagic, Knowledge devotion, 2 domains), and Dread Necromancer 1 (Rebuke attempts for Divine Metamagic) all for less than the cost of Druid 6. Is that really something you want?

AslanCross
2009-07-01, 04:27 PM
Sounds reasonable, since picking up the basics of a class shouldn't be that hard. On the other hand, you're shelving all off your current training and trying to think in another paradigm, so it might not be as easy as one might think.

I do think it might get quite complicated, especially for the purposes of encounter balance between characters that multiclass and those that don't. Finally, some classes multiclass better than others. ToB classes, for example, count half the previous class levels as initiator levels as well, so a Fighter 4/Warblade 1 can qualify immediately for Maneuvers of the second tier.

The following are multiclass house rules I'd implement:
1. Throw out the silly favored class and multiclass penalty rules.
2. If you have levels in a 1/2 or 3/4 BAB class and you take a level in another 3/4 BAB class, your BAB advances as if you had taken another level in your previous class, instead of just giving you +0 BAB.

Draz74
2009-07-01, 05:05 PM
Interesting. I think it would be too easy to break. Any optimized character could easily pick up the key abilities of other classes without falling behind significantly.

For example, a neutral druid 5 could take Monk 1 (Wis to AC), Cloistered Cleric 1 (turn attempts for Divine Metamagic, Knowledge devotion, 2 domains), and Dread Necromancer 1 (Rebuke attempts for Divine Metamagic) all for less than the cost of Druid 6. Is that really something you want?

That's a good argument in favor of the Cumulative +10% XP costs someone else recommended.

Gnaeus
2009-07-01, 05:45 PM
Even with +10% per class, those 3 classes at level 1 are still cheaper than Druid 6 (1100+1200+1300=3600 vs. 5000) AND they don't slow his leveling in the primary class.

erikun
2009-07-01, 06:50 PM
I don't think this fixes the problems you're trying to fix, while it makes the problems you're trying to avoid worse.

Consider the Ranger 2/Fighter 1/Psychic Warrior 1/CW Samurai 1. They are effectively a 2nd level character, and have the same XP as a normal 3rd level - so they've basically traded one level for 3 feats (and a few psionic powers). This "drawback" only gets less at higher levels, as the 3000 XP isn't as noticable at level 10. Heck, you could have Ranger 19/Fighter 2/Psychic Warrior 2/CW Samurai 2/Rogue 2/Barbarian 2/Paladin 2/Bard 1 and have the same XP total as a 20th level character.

On the other hand, while Fighter 5/Wizard 5 might be roughly equal to a 7th level character, a Fighter 15/Wizard 14 really isn't anywhere near a 20th level character.

Gnaeus
2009-07-01, 08:24 PM
Another question is how it affects prestige classes.

1. I assume prestige classes will count as levels of your highest level class?

2. You will be able to enter many classes much earlier (in terms of xp).

3. Many prestige classes are "balanced" through the difficulty in entering them.

For example, Druid 4/Wizard 3/Arcane hierophant 10/MTheurge3 is balanced against Druid 20 because the Hierophant is always 3 levels behind the druid in spell levels, and only catches up at level 20. Under this rule, the same build at level 20 comes to Druid 4(Wizard 3)/AH 10/MT5. Thats 19 level druid casting, 18 level Wizard casting, and only 1 spell level behind the Druid 20 throughout the level progression. MUCH stronger character.

Jack Zander
2009-07-01, 09:17 PM
Consider the Ranger 2/Fighter 1/Psychic Warrior 1/CW Samurai 1. They are effectively a 2nd level character, and have the same XP as a normal 3rd level - so they've basically traded one level for 3 feats (and a few psionic powers). This "drawback" only gets less at higher levels, as the 3000 XP isn't as noticable at level 10. Heck, you could have Ranger 19/Fighter 2/Psychic Warrior 2/CW Samurai 2/Rogue 2/Barbarian 2/Paladin 2/Bard 1 and have the same XP total as a 20th level character.

Compare those two builds to a straight wizard of equal xp and I think melee characters are now a little more viable as they have more options.

However, some have pointed out that casters are easier to break. As far as prestige classes go, I think I would just ban any prestige classes with dual progression (just like in the gestalt rules).


2. If you have levels in a 1/2 or 3/4 BAB class and you take a level in another 3/4 BAB class, your BAB advances as if you had taken another level in your previous class, instead of just giving you +0 BAB.

But then a rogue 2, bard 1, cleric 1, (3,000 xp) has a higher BAB than a rogue 3. Although, you are giving up more HP and skill points so it may work out to be balanced.

This does seem like a lot of bookeeping if you make extra difficult characters, but I bet there is an easy way to figure out the more complicated aspects such as skill points.

At absolute worst, I think the only balancing factor that is needed are players that don't wish to break the game, but rather make interesting characters that were severely under-optimized before.

Dublock
2009-07-02, 12:13 AM
honestly my first thought about that was "Ok, so what happens if someone wants to craft an item if levels are based on exp?" Although I know many DMs have a house rule about that already :p

love the idea though

Myrmex
2009-07-02, 04:11 AM
I don't think this fixes the problems you're trying to fix, while it makes the problems you're trying to avoid worse.

Consider the Ranger 2/Fighter 1/Psychic Warrior 1/CW Samurai 1. They are effectively a 2nd level character, and have the same XP as a normal 3rd level - so they've basically traded one level for 3 feats (and a few psionic powers). This "drawback" only gets less at higher levels, as the 3000 XP isn't as noticable at level 10. Heck, you could have Ranger 19/Fighter 2/Psychic Warrior 2/CW Samurai 2/Rogue 2/Barbarian 2/Paladin 2/Bard 1 and have the same XP total as a 20th level character.

On the other hand, while Fighter 5/Wizard 5 might be roughly equal to a 7th level character, a Fighter 15/Wizard 14 really isn't anywhere near a 20th level character.

Yeah, I don't see any of those examples being the sort of problem a Druid6/monk1/cloistered cleric 1/dread necro 1 would be.

Indon
2009-07-02, 06:53 AM
Yeah, I don't see any of those examples being the sort of problem a Druid6/monk1/cloistered cleric 1/dread necro 1 would be.

Well, you have to compare them to the alternatives.

In that case, Druid 7.

Gnaeus
2009-07-02, 08:30 AM
Yeah, I'll take the Druid 6/DN1/CC1/Mnk1 over druid 7 any day

Persistant Bite of the Werewolf, Persistant Thornskin (or Infestation of maggots, or Quillfire, or swift fly) Improved Grapple, Knowledge devotion, and wisdom + to AC is a great trade for 2 4th level spells. I also get a better reflex save, 2 domains (chosen for their abilities) and about 8 extra first level spells. And at 3600 exp behind, I'll get level 7 long before you get level 8.

Some things are worth even a druid level.

Eldariel
2009-07-02, 08:42 AM
Yeah, I'll take the Druid 6/DN1/CC1/Mnk1 over druid 7 any day

Persistant Bite of the Werewolf, Persistant Thornskin (or Infestation of maggots, or Quillfire, or swift fly) Improved Grapple, Knowledge devotion, and wisdom + to AC is a great trade for 2 4th level spells. I also get a better reflex save, 2 domains (chosen for their abilities) and about 8 extra first level spells. And at 3600 exp behind, I'll get level 7 long before you get level 8.

Some things are worth even a druid level.

To get all that, you also need to burn feats. A straight Druid 7 could have e.g. Greenbound Summoning + Ashbound + Augment Summoning over you, and in one level he'll have far superior Wildshapes in Large Wildshape. It's a tradeoff; I'm not sure which would win on an arena to be honest. Note that you don't have extra HD so your Wildshape is more limited in that sense too. You've got a lot, but you're giving up a lot too.

Gnaeus
2009-07-02, 09:26 AM
To get all that, you also need to burn feats. A straight Druid 7 could have e.g. Greenbound Summoning + Ashbound + Augment Summoning over you, and in one level he'll have far superior Wildshapes in Large Wildshape. It's a tradeoff; I'm not sure which would win on an arena to be honest. Note that you don't have extra HD so your Wildshape is more limited in that sense too. You've got a lot, but you're giving up a lot too.

Monk 1/Druid 19 isn't a bad build. This just gives it freebies. You seriously think that the augment summoning tree is going to be better than persist DMM with 2 classes full of turn/rebuke attempts? How many feats am I really burning? Did I take planning and Undeath domains for free extend spell and + 8 more turning attempts (or luck for a save reroll and Law devotion for better AC or to hit)? And remember, an arena isn't always the best test for broken. You need to burn high level spells for every fight you hope to win with summonings, and you need an entire round + to do it. Persist brokenness lasts all day, every fight, even if I am surprised.

Or I could go the feat starved route and take Quicken DMM instead. I never heard anyone try to argue that DMM was a less than optimal use of feats before, and its better for this kind of rule than basic cleric, because the druid isn't giving up as much by having a high charisma.

Sure, in 1 level you will have the superior large wildshape. You still can't beat me in a grapple, (improved grapple, +6 str Persistant Bite of the Wereboar). He probably can't hit me (+4 AC wisdom, +6 NA Persistant BotWearboar). And don't forget that my pet shares my buffs. And I'm not even a full level behind. Shall we make it a full level and throw in Crusader 1, for some stances and second level strikes?

And the farther up we go, the less behind in xp I will get. By level 10 I am only 1/2 level behind the straight druid again.

Jack Zander
2009-07-02, 10:06 AM
Yeah, like I said, it's easy to make a completely broken caster with this. Aside from that, are there any other glaring issues? I'm pretty sure I'll be able to say to my players, "hey, don't try to break the game with this," and it'd all work out fine, as long as there isn't anything we overlooked.

I could see a useful monk 10/paladin 4/fighter 2 or a sorcerer 5/Dragon Disciple 10 or even simple things like a rogue x/ bard x.

Gnaeus
2009-07-02, 10:31 AM
I just thought of a new way to treat multiclassing, but I'd like to know if you guys think it's balanced or not.

This makes multiclassing for certain character concepts a little more balanced (monk/paladin) but is easily able to break the game with cheaty-face multiclassing combos. Aside from that issue (which is really a DM/player issue), is there anything that would be unbalancing with treating multiclassing this way?

Yeah, like I said, it's easy to make a completely broken caster with this. Aside from that, are there any other glaring issues? I'm pretty sure I'll be able to say to my players, "hey, don't try to break the game with this," and it'd all work out fine, as long as there isn't anything we overlooked.

So, you recognize that it is easy to make broken characters with it, and you want to know if it is balanced? Of course it isn't balanced. Its broken.

Any broken thing can be acceptable in play if the players choose not to abuse it. Shapechange, Planar shepherd, anything can be acceptable in a game if the players and the DM agree on what level to play it at. Doesn't mean its balanced, only that it works in that game.

I think you should give more thought to what constitutes "cheaty-face multiclassing combos". There is nothing "cheaty" with adding cleric and monk to druid under the rules you gave. Your problem will come when your fighter has half a dozen classes under his belt and your Wizard wants to add something and its suddenly broken. Honestly, I can't think of any class that wouldn't benefit from a 1 level cleric dip for 1000 xp.

Jack Zander
2009-07-02, 11:55 AM
So, you recognize that it is easy to make broken characters with it, and you want to know if it is balanced? Of course it isn't balanced. Its broken.

I want to know if it's still balanced after removing the broken things.


I think you should give more thought to what constitutes "cheaty-face multiclassing combos". There is nothing "cheaty" with adding cleric and monk to druid under the rules you gave. Your problem will come when your fighter has half a dozen classes under his belt and your Wizard wants to add something and its suddenly broken. Honestly, I can't think of any class that wouldn't benefit from a 1 level cleric dip for 1000 xp.

I would actually argue that a 1-level dip in cleric as you described isn't a fault of the cleric class, but of persistent DMM cheese. Without that, does every class benefit from a one-level dip in cleric still?

I never said that a druid/cleric/monk was broken. Compare that to a straight druid and I still think it's balanced. What I said was broken was any dual progression prestige class. You've pointed out that DMM cheese is broken as well, but that's true for any game with or without these rules.

A wizard 10/fighter 4 would be a perfectly viable character that would be otherwise much more difficult to pull off.

Let's try to be a little less snappy, kay? :smallwink:

woodenbandman
2009-07-02, 01:06 PM
This could work if you made them XP costs similar to LA buyback, but make them the cost of gaining a new level, and further make there be a minimum level you have to achieve to begin using it. If you're level 15, there's no real reason you should'n pay 15000 XP to gain a level of another class but be treated as level 15 still. Maybe make the cost (cost to gain a new level/2), minimum 2000.

Jack Zander
2009-07-02, 02:13 PM
So, no multiclassing until level (3? 5?) with increased xp requirements based on level. Sounds reasonable.

Gnaeus
2009-07-02, 02:34 PM
I want to know if it's still balanced after removing the broken things.

Removing the broken things is going to be hard. My mind snaps to druid, because it is one of the game's easiest classes to abuse. There are lots of others.


I would actually argue that a 1-level dip in cleric as you described isn't a fault of the cleric class, but of persistent DMM cheese. Without that, does every class benefit from a one-level dip in cleric still?

Pretty much yes. Maybe not paladin. Cleric 1 gives 2 feats (if you pick domains well), heavy armor use, opens up one of the largest spell lists in the game for use in spell trigger items, gives a couple of low level but useful spells, and turn abilities that can power a number of feats, not just DMM (although DMM is probably the best). 1 level cleric dip is so useful that one guy wrote a handbook for it on brilliantgameologists http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2773.0


I never said that a druid/cleric/monk was broken. Compare that to a straight druid and I still think it's balanced. What I said was broken was any dual progression prestige class. You've pointed out that DMM cheese is broken as well, but that's true for any game with or without these rules.

I think that if one was in your game you would find otherwise. If DMM were banned, the Dread Necro dip would go, and cleric wouldn't be nearly as busted. Under normal rules, taking 1 level of Monk with a full druid progression is balanced (in the sense that Monk 1/Druid 19 is probably the single best monk build in the game. It sometimes lags behind full druid, but blows almost everything else out of the water). By shifting the xp table in that way you are either giving the druid the abilities of the monk practically for free, or you are giving the player who would otherwise be playing a druid/monk a bunch of free class abilities without losing another class level.

Without DMM, at ECL 7, Druid 6/Monk 1/Sorcerer 1/cleric 1/Crusader 1 would also be very strong, or swap one of the last 2 out for Dragon Shaman 1 to save some wear on your wand of lesser vigor and give some free party buffs. And by the time he is level 14, he is only 1/2 level behind.


A wizard 10/fighter 4 would be a perfectly viable character that would be otherwise much more difficult to pull off.

Yes. Normally, that character would be Wizard 10/Fighter 1. A good start for a gish build, very playable (ignoring prestige classes for simplicity). I have played a fighter 1/Wizard X build and it can be quite strong. Wizard 10/Fighter 4 under your system just gives the wizard gish 2 extra feats, for which he thanks you, but which he can beat all the mundane classes without all the same. Wizard 10/Monk 1/Swashbuckler 3 with Kung Fu Genius is less xp, and adds its intelligence to its AC and damage. Swap Swashbuckler for Duskblade and you are channeling touch spells through your weapon attacks.

Paladin 2/Sorcerer 9 would be same level 11. Another fully acceptable gish build (ignoring prestige classes again), not as mean as the fighter wizard, but Cha to saves makes it arguably more survivable. Under your system, that build at less xp could be Sorcerer 10, Paladin 2, Monk 2 with Acetic Mage. Same character, + 5th level spells and Cha to AC.

Wizard 3/Cleric 3/Geomancer 5 is also level 11 normal rules, and is almost too pathetic to play. Wizard 5/Cleric 3 /Geomancer 5 I think is level 11 under your rules (not sure exactly how you mean to treat prestige classes). Casts spells like a 10th level wizard wearing plate mail with some extra class features.

The more martial caster prestige classes like abjurant champion and spellsword will also be much easier to qualify for, and available at earlier levels.

It looks balanced when you are talking about mundane melee builds because those builds need help to equal the casters. But casters, especially casters who melee, can use the same tricks just as well. I like playing full casters, and gishes, and I can tell you that this kind of help is not something that they need.


Let's try to be a little less snappy, kay? :smallwink:

I apologise.

Gnaeus
2009-07-02, 03:26 PM
This could work if you made them XP costs similar to LA buyback, but make them the cost of gaining a new level, and further make there be a minimum level you have to achieve to begin using it. If you're level 15, there's no real reason you should'n pay 15000 XP to gain a level of another class but be treated as level 15 still. Maybe make the cost (cost to gain a new level/2), minimum 2000.

I think that would help. Essentially you would be giving up 1/2 of a class level for each outside class level? Its still friendly to gish builds, but its less of a freebie.

Chronos
2009-07-02, 06:49 PM
I really don't understand why people would want to change the 3.x multiclassing rules. After at least dozens of attempts made by many people in many games, they finally managed to come up with something that's sensible, easy to use, and works, and people want to go back to the headaches of all the other methods?

My personal sanity test for evaluating a multiclassing system: Take a nice simple class, like Fighter. Now imagine another class, call it Fighter-Prime, that's exactly the same as Fighter, but counts as a different class. Pick some amount of XP and compare a Fighter/Fighter-Prime with that XP, versus a straight Fighter. In most systems, you'll find that the multiclass has some bizarre combination of bonuses and penalties compared to the straight Fighter (say, very high attack bonus but very low HP, or some such). In 3.x, the multiclass Fighter will end up with one extra feat and a little higher Fort save, but is otherwise pretty much identical to the straight one.

Jack Zander
2009-07-02, 11:24 PM
My personal sanity test for evaluating a multiclassing system: Take a nice simple class, like Fighter. Now imagine another class, call it Fighter-Prime, that's exactly the same as Fighter, but counts as a different class. Pick some amount of XP and compare a Fighter/Fighter-Prime with that XP, versus a straight Fighter. In most systems, you'll find that the multiclass has some bizarre combination of bonuses and penalties compared to the straight Fighter (say, very high attack bonus but very low HP, or some such). In 3.x, the multiclass Fighter will end up with one extra feat and a little higher Fort save, but is otherwise pretty much identical to the straight one.

But a cleric/cleric would not be identical to a straight cleric.

Dante & Vergil
2009-08-21, 02:42 PM
Aah! Necromancy! (It's kinda my thing.:smallwink:)
Anyway, I think that if this was used with monster progressions only (probably racial HD and level adjustments in general should be included), I think that it might be worth playing the monster classes in savage species.
What do you guys think?

erikun
2009-08-21, 07:34 PM
I think that making your own thread would have been better than Necroing this one. :smalltongue:

As for applying the system to Racial HD/Level Adjustment, I suppose it could work. For example, a first level Ogre Fighter is normally ECL 7, with 4 RHD, +2 LA, and 1 Fighter.

So what you're suggesting is that basically the Ogre Fighter would be ECL 6, with 4 RHD + 2 LA//Fighter 1? And they would need 1000 exp to hit Fighter 2?

You'll need to consider what happens as they level up, how you'd determine HD, and so on. Your suggestion would have an Ogre Fighter 6 with (effectively) 30,000 exp, which others just entered level 8. I'm not quite sure, but I think that's a bit too cheap for all the benefits an Ogre grants you to melee.

It really doesn't work with something like a Rakshasa (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/rakshasa.htm), which already casts spells as a Sorcerer. A 7th level Rakshasa Sorcerer would be a 14th level caster, but a 7 RHD + 7 LA//Sorcerer 14 Rakshasa would be a 21st level caster, for only 182,000 exp (level 19).

Reguardless, if you want to discuss further, let's more to another thread. :smallsmile:

rogueboy
2009-08-21, 10:58 PM
You level up as normal in a single class, but when you wish to take a second class, instead of waiting for several thousand XP to learn the basics of being a fighter, rogue, etc. you only pay 1,000 XP for your first level, as if you have two (or more) separate XP charts (one for every class).
Instead of gaining the bonuses of each class, you are treated as a gestalt character. Your BAB and Base Saves only increase if they are better than what your other class(es) would give you, but you gain all of the class abilities as normal. Your HPs/skills/skill points are determined from the classes that give you the highest Hit Dice first.
Your character level is equal to your total amount of XP, however, your Hit Dice may not be.
You gain character level dependent bonuses (such as feats and ability point increases) as per your total XP.

This makes multiclassing for certain character concepts a little more balanced (monk/paladin) but is easily able to break the game with cheaty-face multiclassing combos. Aside from that issue (which is really a DM/player issue), is there anything that would be unbalancing with treating multiclassing this way?

When I read this, it made me think of the zero-leveling system (see below) that my group used in our last game. It worked very well for providing an increase in customization and choices, without increasing power excessively. Also, as nice as it was to have a few extra choices, losing out on the increase in HD, BAB, saves, abilities, and other level-based goodies made it a tough choice every time we wanted to pick up an extra class. As a side note, we had 3 players in the group, so we were primarily looking for a method to provide ourselves with healing without anyone having to be the dedicated healer for the group.

Zero-Leveling:
Before beginning the description, I would like to mention that I did not write any of this. This is paraphrased from a post on these forums, though I am unable to give proper credit because I do not have the author noted and the link no longer works. If you know who posted this previously, please let me know so I can credit them properly. In their post, they have a similar disclaimer, stating that zero-leveling is "an optional gestalting system originally created by Aelyrinth of the Monte Cook boards. The threads which originally held this information dissapeared in the ezCrash." They also note that "I do not claim creation of any part of this. It is entirely the creation of Aelyrinth. I am merely paraphrasing the rules from memory." I am subsequently paraphrasing their post in an attempt to clarify things.

This assumes treatment of leveling as purchasing levels with your XP rather than reaching a preset XP total. As an example (from 3.5), it would cost 3,000 XP to gain level 4 once you were level 3.

You may "zero-level" in any number of classes, but the number of levels you may have in anything other than your primary class is limited to 1 zero-level (in a given class) per level in your primary progression. Buying a zero-level costs the same as it would to gain your next primary level. Each class you zero-level in is gestalted against all other classes you have at an equal level. For example, a level 3 character could only have 1 zero-level in each zero-leveled class, but could have zero-levels in as many classes as they want. Once they reach level 4 (by spending 3,000 XP to increase their primary progression), they could then increase their zero-levels at the cost of 4,000 XP for each zero-leveled class. As you buy your second level in a zero-leveled class, compare the benefits of that class to any other class you level 2 in and apply standard gestalt rules.

Prestige classes are also fair game for zero-leveling in, but face an additional restriction: your limit is equal to (character level - 10)/2. This means that level 12 is the lowest level you can zero-level a PrC at, and you are limited to 5 levels of each PrC at level 20. These levels are compared against levels 11-15 for purposes of the gestalt benefits. You can also zero-level base classes at this elevated level (in order to get full BAB through 15th as a caster, for example), but you are forever restricted by these restrictions for that class.

Once you have taken a zero-level in a class, you are no longer eligible to add that to your primary progression, and vice versa.

Benefits of zero-leveling: Compare each zero-level to the appropriate primary progression (1-10 or 11-15, as explained above) and increase things as normally done for gestalt characters. An exception is made for skill points: you gain the standard skill points for a class you zero-level in, regardless of your other classes (for example, adding Bard gives you 6+Int skill points, regardless of whether you are primarily a Fighter or a Rogue). Additionally, gaining a 4th or 8th level in a specific zero-leveled class grants you an additional feat (as normally gained at 3rd, 6th, etc). Ability boosts are gained at 5th and 10th in a specific class.

The poster on these forums stated, and I will quote them because this is still true: "My description is probably pretty confusing, and I apologize for that. It's actually extraordinarily simple once you actually start working with it." If you have questions about how it works, or how it worked for us, please feel free to ask and I'll do my best to answer.