Another Belkar Thread (Heavy speculation inside, Giant go away)

[Morquard]

Ok, I know there are a couple of Belkar threads out there, but I haven't seen this theory yet.

I thought about it, and I think there's the possibility that Belkar is not going to die. At all. He's not turning into an undead, or a table, or an acid-breathing-shark either.

Yes, the Oracle's prediction was very definite, and if he was telling the truth, I don't believe there's any way out of it.

However here's my theory and I'm trying to make my points clear, so forgive me for the long post :)

- Most people seem to assume that the Oracle's green speech bubble means he's in prophecy mode, and is telling the absolute truth. Is it? Maybe the green bubble is something else.
Maybe the memory charm is built to delete your memory about everything except the green bubbles.
The oracle can turn green speech on and off at will, but usually only uses it for a predictions.
So far it seems like he's in some sort of trance mode, and when in green-speech-mode talks prophecy. But that might just be a play to impress people and make them believe that crap. He already knows everything, and for a prophecy he just tells them the future in green-bubbles.
(There's no real proof for this, but also no proof against it either. I think its quite possible)
(Except that he looks into the future to see Haley's translated speechbubbles in the book version, without ever going into trancemode... so he might very well be able to see the future always)

- It's in the oracle's own interesst that the Order succeeds, since he'd be undone just as well as all other living things. Also Tiamat (his dragon godess) (slight SOD spoiler) may be an evil godess, but also denied the knowledge of the Snarl to the Dark One. She'd be on the loosing end if the Dark One's Plan succeeds. And if it fails and the world gets remade, she'd have less power as well, since a whole bunch of new gods would want a go at the new world. So its in Tiamats interesst as well that Team evil looses and the gates are sealed again

- That leaves the question, why is the oracle such an ass to the order?
He knew Roy would dangle him out of the window if he gives him a stupid answer, but yet he did. His "convienently having the right object in his robe" ability could most likely have given him something to defend against a low level fighter and cleric. Or have a couple of guards on standby. But he didn't.
He knew that Belkar would stab him, if he keeps provoking him (I mean he had the rezz incoming, so he knew). I thought for a long time he was trying to weasle out of that by making Belkar believe those ridicilous theories. But face it they were stupid, you don't need a Wisdom of 20 to realise that, even the table Belkar was once compared to would realise that. But yet he still did, and got killed.
Why?
Maybe because he knows these things have to happen in order for the greater plan to work (not the Dark One's plan).
I think it was Matrix "I didn't tell you the truth, I told you what you needed to hear".
He had to get Belkar mad and kill him. As a result his Mark of Justice went off, and transformed Belkar. Might be a ploy so far, but who knows, it might stick. Or just that he's playing it is enough.

- Maybe the transformed Belkar is needed to stop the Snarl.
Or any Belkar.
The triggering of the Mark may not have been so that he would be transformed, but so the cleric of Loki removes it from him. Lets see what would have happened if Belkar had not killed the oracle:
Celia would still have dragged Roy's body to Greysky City and he'd ended as a golem. They'd been attacked by the Thiefs Guild. But oops. Mark of Justice... Belkar can't unleash death on the guild. Yes, the cleric could remove it from Belkar as well before it goes off I guess. But he wouldn't even know about it, he was called there for the Sending spell, and not to look after the sick halfling.
So he starts killing when cornered, having nothing to loose, and gets hit by the Mark. Thiefs slaughter him even while the giant illusionary head of Lord Shojo is talking to him. Boozak and Crystal kill Haley and Celia. Game over.
Noone knows now where Roy is, so he can't get rezzed either.

- Also if he wants teh Order to succeed, why sic the ABD on V, especially if it results in the death of a ****load of Dragons, which Tiamat might not like.
Maybe again, it needed to happen. V had to make that deal, to learn his lesson of modesty and that ultimate arcane power isn't everything.
Or maybe a certain different ABD had to be removed from the picture, maybe someone guarding the gate or so. The only way to do that was Familicide.
As horrible as it is, Tiamat might have seen it as the only possibility, and figured sacrificing that many dragons for it was worth it.


But all this doesn't explain why he would lie about Belkar's death to Roy though.
Maybe he knows that Roy will kick Belkar from the group, once he's back from the dead, because he thinks Belkar has become too much of a liability and doesn't trust his change.
That would either result in Belkar missing from the Order (obviously) and they therefore failing.
Or even worse, Belkar is pissed and joins forces with Xykon, and they loose because of that.

So he tells him, in a fake speech bubble that Belkar is going to die soon.

Now Roy keeps Belkar around, because he thinks the problem will soon be resolved on its own.

So again, the oracle wasn't telling Roy the truth, but simply what he needed to hear to accomplish the greater mission.

[Tijne]

Oddly enough, this makes a lot of sense to me.

I've always though it a little strange that the Oracle is able to apparently forsee everything... but only choses to react to some of it... Maybe he's not "all-knowing", but he certainly does seem to do enough 'looking-into-the-future' to know things like.. when a client will be arriving.. or when his next death will occour. So, it bugs me a little that the Oracle 'wasn't aware' of Roy getting past the memory charm, too. :x But that's probably just me..




I think Rich stated somewhere the the halfing was definitely going to die? .. or if he didn't, the Oracle did say out of comic to us that it was a comic year. No reason for him to lie to -us-. ^_^

[DarthCyberWolf]

Plus he didn’t "identify the recipient unambiguously" when he told that to Roy.

[petersohn]

Is it just me or this speculation really feels like a big conspiracy theory? Not that it hurts as a speculation.

I think that there is some kind of catch, but I don't think it's that grand of a plan from the kobold.

[Morquard]

So, it bugs me a little that the Oracle 'wasn't aware' of Roy getting past the memory charm, too. :x But that's probably just me..

I think he was aware, just didn't care and wanted to give Roy the impression of having outsmarted him.


Is it just me or this speculation really feels like a big conspiracy theory? Not that it hurts as a speculation.

I think that there is some kind of catch, but I don't think it's that grand of a plan from the kobold.Well I do admit its somewhat of a stretch, but the Oracle from Matrix (who was also just called "the oracle". Coincidence? :) ) did the same. "No Neo, you're not the One", even though she knew he was. He had to raise to that on his own, not because some Oracle told him.

Oh and I never said (if it sounded like it, then I didn't want to say it) that it is the Oracle's big master plan. The Oracle might just be a tool for Tiamat like Redcloak is for the Dark One.

[Cracklord]

I think he was aware, just didn't care and wanted to give Roy the impression of having outsmarted him.

Well I do admit its somewhat of a stretch, but the Oracle from Matrix (who was also just called "the oracle". Coincidence? :) ) did the same. "No Neo, you're not the One", even though she knew he was. He had to raise to that on his own, not because some Oracle told him.

Oh and I never said (if it sounded like it, then I didn't want to say it) that it is the Oracle's big master plan. The Oracle might just be a tool for Tiamat like Redcloak is for the Dark One.

She didn't say that. She said "Sorry kid, maybe in the next life."
Then Agent Smith shot him, and when he got up he was stopping bullets. If you're going to cite irrelevant sources, do it properly.

[Jaltum]

I think the green bubble is a legit prophecy; anything else would be a copout from the Giant.

The rest of this makes a good amount of sense; the Oracle is providing information in a way that ultimately benefits the Order from his semi-omniscient point of view.

I think the death of Belkar (and Roy, and the things V has suffered) might explain why he hasn't been more openly cooperative. They a) might not trust him if he wasn't so clearly grudging about it and b) they might not be willing (or able) to do what they have to do if they go into with their eyes wide open.

[Morquard]

they might not be willing (or able) to do what they have to do if they go into with their eyes wide open.
That might be a reason.
Lots of people have the "screw fate" attitude I think. Meaning if you tell them "XY is going to happen", they do anything in their power to stop it. Especially if its something bad.
most of the Order strikes me as people who'd do that.

Durkon would probably willingly accept it, but certainly not Haley.

As for the Matrix-comment: Alright, it was quoted wrong, sorry. You're quote is slightly off too, but it doesn't really matter, since what I was trying to say with it, still holds true.

[Hacktor]

oh... i never thought about it that way .. the reason he told roy belkar was going to die was so he would not kick out Belkar [as he's needed for something bigger]... great piece of deduction there :D

I have to say i love the way the giant writes these.

[73 Bits of Lint]

Except that, if the oracle had a reputation for flubbing people's prophecies, adventurers would eventually figure that out and quit visiting him. The Oracle is an annoying little turd, very expensive, and a pain to visit.

The only way I can see Belkar surviving is if V really has drawn the wrath of Tiamat onto the party, and the way that they get out from under that problem somehow also results in Tiamat being unable to "see" Belkar. So Tiamat thinks Belkar is dead and she tells the Oracle that he is, but the halfling keeps on living in secret from a diety. No, it isn't very likely, but most theories about how Belkar will live/become undead/become a tree/whatever are pretty far-fetched too.

[Morquard]

I'm not saying this one's not far fetched or anything.
Just saying he doesn't HAVE to die, and it would could be absolutely logically explained why not.

And where did I say the oracle does flub people's prophecies? No, usually it tells them something at least close enough to the truth that most people believ it worked.

Most prophecies become only "obvious" in retrospect. Guess its why most people either believe their prophecy will still come true or has already happened.

[Moriarty]

if the oracle would be trying to help them with their quest, why being rude to them while not speeking "green"? the only one who will remember the non green parts is the oracle himself so there is no reason to being rude to the order

[Zanaril]

if the oracle would be trying to help them with their quest, why being rude to them while not speeking "green"? the only one who will remember the non green parts is the oracle himself so there is no reason to being rude to the order

For teh lulz. He does remember what they did to him, what one of them was going to do to him, and (probably) what one of them was going to do to a quater of all the black dragons on the planet. Also becuase they're disgusting mammals.

[Moriarty]

For teh lulz. He does remember what they did to him, what one of them was going to do to him, and (probably) what one of them was going to do to a quater of all the black dragons on the planet. Also becuase they're disgusting mammals.

but they do these things because the oracles actions, so how can he be mad about it when he's the one who decided it would go that way?

if we follow the OP's theory, the oracle decided to be killed to activate Belkars curse (which doesn't really fits with his behaviour in "normal text")

[Tenebrais]

Your concept of the Oracle makes sense, but I still think Belkar's going to die. It could be that he needs to be sacrificed (or sacrifice himself ) to allow the Order to succeed - something they would not do to one of their own, even Belkar, without knowing he had to die anyway.

[EmeraldPhoenix]

That is so...convaluted. It's unimaginably insane and J K-Rowling-weasle-esque.

...I LOVE IT.

[Optimystik]

Forgive me, but I consider this particular epileptic tree in need of some pruning.

Oracle-speech and the validity thereof, I won't go into; I can't prove a negative (i.e. that he is incapable of using green speech for non-prophecies.) For the rest, you and I differ on one key assumption: I don't think the Oracle is 100%, infallibly omniscient. Your Xanatos Gambit theory hinges on the Oracle being aware of too many consequences and permutations for credibility's sake.


- It's in the oracle's own interesst that the Order succeeds, since he'd be undone just as well as all other living things. Also Tiamat (his dragon godess) (slight SOD spoiler) may be an evil godess, but also denied the knowledge of the Snarl to the Dark One. She'd be on the loosing end if the Dark One's Plan succeeds. And if it fails and the world gets remade, she'd have less power as well, since a whole bunch of new gods would want a go at the new world. So its in Tiamats interesst as well that Team evil looses and the gates are sealed again

SoD
Tiamat and Rat told the DO the Snarl wasn't something he'd want to mess around with. It read to me more along the lines of being forced to live with something you'd rather not think about, and so not being willing to expound on it, rather than a conscious effort to keep a colleague in the dark. I also fail to see how Tiamat would "lose" if the Dark One's plan succeeds; she defended his entry into the pantheon in the first place, why would she be against his people getting a bigger share of the pie? ESPECIALLY since that pie would likely come from the humans, elves and other goody races?


That leaves the question, why is the oracle such an ass to the order?
He knew Roy would dangle him out of the window if he gives him a stupid answer, but yet he did. His "convienently having the right object in his robe" ability could most likely have given him something to defend against a low level fighter and cleric. Or have a couple of guards on standby. But he didn't.

We don't know that he knew that. He doesn't appear to know EVERYthing. So far, it seems Roy has pulled a fast one on him concerning the memory charm; in addition, he "always gets interrupted during bathtime." I just don't see him as the sort of Xanatos-caliber genius that you do.


He knew that Belkar would stab him, if he keeps provoking him (I mean he had the rezz incoming, so he knew). I thought for a long time he was trying to weasle out of that by making Belkar believe those ridicilous theories. But face it they were stupid, you don't need a Wisdom of 20 to realise that, even the table Belkar was once compared to would realise that. But yet he still did, and got killed.
Why?
Maybe because he knows these things have to happen in order for the greater plan to work (not the Dark One's plan).
I think it was Matrix "I didn't tell you the truth, I told you what you needed to hear".
He had to get Belkar mad and kill him. As a result his Mark of Justice went off, and transformed Belkar. Might be a ploy so far, but who knows, it might stick. Or just that he's playing it is enough.
- Maybe the transformed Belkar is needed to stop the Snarl.
Or any Belkar.
The triggering of the Mark may not have been so that he would be transformed, but so the cleric of Loki removes it from him. Lets see what would have happened if Belkar had not killed the oracle:
Celia would still have dragged Roy's body to Greysky City and he'd ended as a golem. They'd been attacked by the Thiefs Guild. But oops. Mark of Justice... Belkar can't unleash death on the guild. Yes, the cleric could remove it from Belkar as well before it goes off I guess. But he wouldn't even know about it, he was called there for the Sending spell, and not to look after the sick halfling.
So he starts killing when cornered, having nothing to loose, and gets hit by the Mark. Thiefs slaughter him even while the giant illusionary head of Lord Shojo is talking to him. Boozak and Crystal kill Haley and Celia. Game over.
Noone knows now where Roy is, so he can't get rezzed either.


This part is quite plausible - to a point. But merely knowing that Belkar's Mark would get set off isn't the same as knowing that he would experience the epiphany necessary to progress beyond 1-dimensionality.

In addition, your version of events hinges on a key assumption; that, had Belkar not been sick, everything - Celia taking Roy's body to Grubwiggler, being forced to leave it behind, Grub alerting the Guild, etc. - would have still unfolded as it did. I don't see it happening that way. For one, non-sick Belkar would have been free to help Celia attack golems without violating his Mark; they thus would have been able to escape with Roy's corpse even if he had let the airhead hand it over to begin with. Second, Cole was called to resurrect Roy, not cure Belkar. He has a scroll of resurrection, and with Roy's body it would have been cast and done with, no need for a sending. Even if Pete went on to alert the Guild, Roy would have chopped them to flinders even with Belkar unable to inflict lethal damage.

Finally, why would the Oracle - someone who you yourself admitted to hating Belkar so completely - want to set in motion a chain of events that would lead to the halfling becoming ten times as dangerous as he was before? I find it much more plausible that he simply knew that Belkar's Mark would be activated... and that's it. In other words, he didn't know that Belkar would be able to overcome the effect and be even stronger.


- Also if he wants teh Order to succeed, why sic the ABD on V, especially if it results in the death of a ****load of Dragons, which Tiamat might not like.
Maybe again, it needed to happen. V had to make that deal, to learn his lesson of modesty and that ultimate arcane power isn't everything.
Or maybe a certain different ABD had to be removed from the picture, maybe someone guarding the gate or so. The only way to do that was Familicide.
As horrible as it is, Tiamat might have seen it as the only possibility, and figured sacrificing that many dragons for it was worth it.

I consider Familicide quite incidental to V's lesson. It was attacking Xykon, not murdering dragons, that taught V how inadequate his power really was. As far as I'm concerned, Familicide benefited no one but the Fiends, and the idea that Tiamat would sanction it is just nuts.


But all this doesn't explain why he would lie about Belkar's death to Roy though.
Maybe he knows that Roy will kick Belkar from the group, once he's back from the dead, because he thinks Belkar has become too much of a liability and doesn't trust his change.
That would either result in Belkar missing from the Order (obviously) and they therefore failing.
Or even worse, Belkar is pissed and joins forces with Xykon, and they loose because of that.

So he tells him, in a fake speech bubble that Belkar is going to die soon.

Now Roy keeps Belkar around, because he thinks the problem will soon be resolved on its own.

So again, the oracle wasn't telling Roy the truth, but simply what he needed to hear to accomplish the greater mission.

Your conclusion is especially unbelievable. Even without the certainty of Belkar's death looming ahead, I doubt Roy would eject Belkar from the group unless he did something particularly heinous in the near future - he still owes him for saving Haley and especially Celia. If Belkar were to commit some senselessly vile act, he would be just as likely to be kicked out now as he would be if his upcoming death were unknown. So the "Matrix theory" of influencing Roy's decision-making with a false prophecy doesn't hold water to me. It's much simpler that the prophecy is true, particularly since it's been repeated so many times AND given green-speech treatment.

[GreatWyrmGold]

I think that the Oracle didn't do anything about his death 'cause he COULDN'T. If the future is set in stone, he'd get stabbed. On the other hand, if the future wasn't, a time paradox would have probably occured.

I'm getting off topic. Sorry.

Anyhow, it's an interesing theory, but if the Oracle's victims customers remember that an answer was wrong, they'd spread the word, and the Oracle would go back to whatever job he had before his oracular powers appeared.
It'd need to be one darn important cause for the Oracle to agree to risk going into poverty over it.

[Morgan Wick]

If the Oracle made up the Belkar-dies prophecy to keep him in the group, why did he also give the same prophecy the first in-strip time the OOTS visits him, when no one remembers it?

[sebmojo]

Just a quick point about the Matrix reference - the Oracle in that movie never said Neo wasn't the One. She said "... but you know what I'm going to tell you, don't you?". It's Neo who says 'I'm not the One".

In a movie series that is ultimately about the power of choice and the odd, illusory nature of free will, IMO that's a very important distinction.

Back to the thread, I think the kobold Oracle is a fascinating character, but I think it would be dreadfully cheap of Rich to set him up as being Always Right then giving him the ability to lie. I think he tells people things because he knows that what he was always going to tell them. Would be a weird life, neh?