Belkar Is like Darth Vader

[Vaarsuvius4181]

Belkar will be "killed" much as anakin was "killed". It was not completely honest, but the oracle can look into the future to know how much of an ass he was to him, right?

[Ancalagon]

Darth Vader surely is not close to Chaotic Evil. He's not like Belkar, really... no.

He's not into whores, or violence for violence sake, he's not about lies, he's a great leader and... simply no. ;)

[Vaarsuvius4181]

Well not that part, but the idea of his "death"

[Vaarsuvius4181]

Or maybe he will become a lich!! :)

[marquiz]

*cough* as much as I love star wars, and (post? pre?) Darth Vader in particular, I am compelled to disagree with Vader not being CE.

Participating in murder of underage members of multiple species so he would not have any problems in the future with Galactic Domination. (Two men, one vote, anything else goes)

About lies, "I am altering the deal, pray that I do not alter it any further"

About great leadership, well, I have yet to see him gain a tactical victory on his own, not to mention killing officers and repacing them with whoever on the vid-screen at the time, for some reason, seems to me just creating more excuses to cause incompetency.

Well about whores... I dont remember Belkar with one either (except for some mentioned details), except for V and that white-dressed-dark-skinned-curly-haired-bard-what-was-her-name, and... please... simply dont get me started on Amidala...

Also they both prod bantha rear when using two weapons.

Methinks the only difference between two of them is Belkar doesnt wear black, and doesnt whine (with and without the respirator).

[Gamerlord]

Darth Vader is LE, Belkar is CE

Simple as that.

[Ancalagon]

And he is pretty large, while Belkar is more small.

Vader murders, but not for no apparent reason (as Belkar). About the whores... buy Origin of PCs.

The only thing they really have in common is that they are evil.

[petersohn]

DV is more like Nale.

About Belkar's death, I don't know. "Undying" seems to be a more feasible alternative.

[Poppy Appletree]

DV is more like Nale.

You're right, he does always set himself up for failure. :smallwink:

[Ron Miel]

The OP isn't comparing their personalities. He's making a prediction about Belkar's death, that it will be like Anakin's "death." That is, he won't realy die, but will be reborn as a new person.

[The Pilgrim]

Darth Vader is LE, Belkar is CE

Simple as that.

In addition to everything that has already been said by marquiz (most notably the "I am altering the deal, pray that I do not alter it any further" quote, that pretty much settles the issue), I have to add:

"Luke, you can destroy the Emperor. He has foreseen this. It is your destiny. Join me, and together we can rule the galaxy as father and son"

Betraying your Liege and taking over his position.

Totally Lawful.

Sure.

[Tenebrais]

In addition to everything that has already been said by marquiz (most notably the "I am altering the deal, pray that I do not alter it any further" quote, that pretty much settles the issue), I have to add:

"Luke, you can destroy the Emperor. He has foreseen this. It is your destiny. Join me, and together we can rule the galaxy as father and son"

Betraying your Liege and taking over his position.

Totally Lawful.

Sure.

I'd have put that down to the "evil" part of Lawful Evil. Note that it is tradition among the Sith for the apprentice to destroy the master.

[Timberboar]

I'd have put that down to the "evil" part of Lawful Evil. Note that it is tradition among the Sith for the apprentice to destroy the master.

And (to spell it out) following tradition is entirely lawful. :)

And who says altering a deal is non-lawful? Re-negotiations of contracts keep many lawyers fed.

[Red XIV]

I'd have put that down to the "evil" part of Lawful Evil. Note that it is tradition among the Sith for the apprentice to destroy the master.
Yes, it's not just something that's expected, it's a requirement for the apprentice to kill the master and take over once they're capable of doing so. When he tried to recruit Luke to help him overthrow his master (after which Vader would be the master and Luke the apprentice), he was doing exactly what every Sith apprentice is meant to do.

[derfenrirwolv]

Betraying your Liege and taking over his position.

Totally Lawful.

i think overthrowing your liege when he's too old and weak to rule any more is pretty much in the lawful evil code of conduct.

If you can successfully overthrow him, then he's obviously too old and weak to rule any more

[Kish]

Belkar is indeed like Darth Vader: He's going to be dead and gone forever by the time the end-credits roll.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

[multilis]

Yes, Belkar will die a good man just like Darth Vader.

Wisdom of owl brings out his good side, and as he lvls he becomes wiser, it is only a matter of time.

[Da Pwnzlord]

Isn't Neutral Evil an option for Vader??? :smalltongue::smallwink:

[Murdim]

Wisdom of owl brings out his good side, and as he lvls he becomes wiser, it is only a matter of time.Methinks Belkar puts every stat increase he gets in Strength, and isn't interested at all in Wisdom-raising items. Maybe if someone forces him to read a Tome of Understanding...


Isn't Neutral Evil an option for Vader??? :smalltongue::smallwink:Emperor Palpatine would be a better applicant.

[FeAnPi]

Simply, Darth Vader is NOT a D&D character; thus, he does not obey to D&D's alignments' system. He is corrupted by the Dark Side, a corruption that spread from too much love and the refusal of loved ones' death. More like a Darth Vaarsavius than a Belkar, as I see it.

[Bibliomancer]

Or maybe he will become a lich!! :)

It would be very interesting to see Belkar pull off Vader's trademark wheeze without any lungs. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0097.html)

[Murdim]

Another argument for Neutral Evil Palpy :

:vaarsuvius: : My power... EXCEEDS yours !!
http://images.gamers.fr/avatars/Cinema/palpatine.gif : Powerrrrr, unlimited POWERRRRRR !!!

Quite a resemblance, don't you find ?

[hamishspence]

Main reason for Vader beig LE rather than NE is his motives. Right from Episode 2 his concrn seems to be Order over Democracy, his lure to Luke is "Together we can end this destructive conflict and bring order to the galaxy" etc.

His deceptiveness is a bit odd for LE, but he doesn't have to be perfectly Lawful, only Lawful enough.

Darth Krayt said something similar "democracy is inherently chaotic- the only way to maintain order is the rule of one strong man"

[Haven]

Of course! And Belkar will "draw his last breath" because he'll have machines to do it for him! He won't be able to enjoy cake because he won't be able to fit it through his mask! And he shouldn't worry about his IRA because...Darth Vader never retires?

Also, the Oracle saying that Belkar will die is totally like Obi-Wan lying to Luke.

If I can present a slightly altered scenario, perhaps what the prophecy means is that:

Belkar will DIE.

And be DEAD.

Because something is going to KILL him.

And you can't enjoy cake when you're NOT ALIVE. Nor do you breathe when you're in a COFFIN, and NON ANIMATED CORPSES have no use for RETIREMENT DOLLARS.

Pretty unlikely, I know, but still.

[The Blackbird]

Belkar is indeed like Darth Vader: He's going to be dead and gone forever by the time the end-credits roll.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

This, and the post above, win.

Belkar will die, it will probably be a super dramatic super cool death too, but why would the Oracle tell Roy that prediction if he knew Belkar was NOT going to die? He'd be really niffed about Belkar just killing him, and getting away with it because he will become a lich or something. No, it'd be a stretch to say the Oracle just wanted to make Roy think Belkar would die for *Insert bad reason here*.

[Snake-Aes]

Simply, Darth Vader is NOT a D&D character; thus, he does not obey to D&D's alignments' system. He is corrupted by the Dark Side, a corruption that spread from too much love and the refusal of loved ones' death. More like a Darth Vaarsavius than a Belkar, as I see it.

All Star Wars games based on d&d, using the alignment system, portrays the Jedi and Sith as lawful, the difference being the good-evil axis(tempted jedi are lawful neutral, usually).

Anyway.
On Vader's Alignment: He's evil, he rules, he obeys his master for as long as his master outsmarts him, he's a Sith. Lawful.
Betraying is not Chaotic, it's Evil.


Now back to Belkar.

The oracle didn't say "die", he said "Draw his last breath". for all we know, he doesn't even have to really die, as half-assed as that could be(or not). Undead Belkar would fulfill the prophecy, as would half-golem Belkar. And Dead Belkar, of course.

[Cracklord]

Dath Vader is a monster who has been made such by the manipulations of one man, who agonises about his own darkness. Belkar is a small scale thug.
And Belkart will die for good. Accept it.

[The Pilgrim]

I'd have put that down to the "evil" part of Lawful Evil. Note that it is tradition among the Sith for the apprentice to destroy the master.


And (to spell it out) following tradition is entirely lawful. :)


Yes, it's not just something that's expected, it's a requirement for the apprentice to kill the master and take over once they're capable of doing so. When he tried to recruit Luke to help him overthrow his master (after which Vader would be the master and Luke the apprentice), he was doing exactly what every Sith apprentice is meant to do.

I don't know if you are speaking seriously or not, after all those "Belkar is not CE" discussions where the Belkster defendants do it just for fun. But anyway, here's your answer. :smallbiggrin:

Your argument is like saying that all Chaotic characters are Lawful instead because, after all, following the chaotic "code of conduct" means being Lawful. Like saying "Robin Hood is Lawful because he does exactly what it's expected from a Lovable Rogue".

Yeah, sure.

Being Chaotic Evil means doing as you damn like and giving up to all your desires without any restraint or control, from rules, moral or ethical code whatsoever.

And that is pretty much what following the Dark Side means.

[The Pilgrim]

Main reason for Vader beig LE rather than NE is his motives. Right from Episode 2 his concrn seems to be Order over Democracy, his lure to Luke is "Together we can end this destructive conflict and bring order to the galaxy" etc.

His deceptiveness is a bit odd for LE, but he doesn't have to be perfectly Lawful, only Lawful enough.

Darth Krayt said something similar "democracy is inherently chaotic- the only way to maintain order is the rule of one strong man"

Well, since Anakin turned to the Dark Side just for saving his significant other... following your logic that means that Vader was not Evil, but Good? :smallbiggrin:

[Mitth'raw'nuruo]

The SITH most likely were not Lawful. Most likely they ran the full gambit of lawful to chaotic.

Sith Lords were Lawful

Dark Jedi could be Lawful or chaotic or neutral.

Human (or others) who later followed Sith teaching could be lawful to chaotic.

Dark Lords of the Sith would be lawful.

Never forget that:
1 the Sith were a race.
2 Dark Jedi are not always fallowers of Sith teachings (The Emperor was only a very powerful dark jedi - Vader was The Dark Lord of the Sith)
3. At the time of the movies, there could only be one Dark Lord of the Sith

[The Pilgrim]

Anyway.
On Vader's Alignment: He's evil, he rules, he obeys his master for as long as his master outsmarts him, he's a Sith. Lawful.
Betraying is not Chaotic, it's Evil.

So, since Belkar only obeys Roy for as long as Roy can outsmart him... does that mean Belkar is LE? :smalltongue:

[Mitth'raw'nuruo]

The Pilgrim

Vader ALSO had a deal with Bobba Fett. Who was far more important to the Empire then Calrissian who had a well known criminal record. Fett's deal was also written as a contract to arrest Solo and the others. Fett was the reason Vader was able to use the rest of the rebel terrorists as bait to lure in Skywaker.

Vader wanted Calrissian's corroperation without having to kill him, or declare martial law on Cloud City which would have lead to violence and civilian deaths. This is lawful. It is also the act of a responsible leader.

[The Pilgrim]

The Pilgrim

Vader ALSO had a deal with Bobba Fett. Who was far more important to the Empire then Calrissian who had a well known criminal record. Fett's deal was also written as a contract to arrest Solo and the others. Fett was the reason Vader was able to use the rest of the rebel terrorists as bait to lure in Skywaker.

And he also shown to be full willing to break that contract, too. He used the carbon freezing facility on Han Solo, risking Bobba's prize (being able to bring Han Solo alive to Jabba the Hut) to be damaged. Of course Vader promised Bobba a compensation should Han Solo had died. But no compensation would have been enough for such a stain in the record of a proud bounty hunter like Bobba.


Vader wanted Calrissian's corroperation without having to kill him, or declare martial law on Cloud City which would have lead to violence and civilian deaths. This is lawful. It is also the act of a responsible leader.

I don't agree.

Governor Tarkin was the Lawful one. He was the responsible one. Proven by the following facts:
- The destruction of Alderaan. He rids the Empire from a bunch of terrorist collaborators and uses it as a derrent to prevent other people from helping the so called "rebellion". A sensible way to save innocent lives.
- He prevented Vader from killing valuable officers just for anger, thus preventing him from weakening the Imperial Chain of command.
- He could have destroyed Yavin and then the Moon, as opposite to just wait until the rebel base was on sight and lend the rebels enough time to play their gambit. But that could have put the integrity Imperials into danger, and since he didn't knew the Death Star had a flaw and the rebels knew it and how to exploit it, he just waited.
- "We have analyzed the Rebel attack, and there is a slight danger... shall I have your ship standing by?" But of course Tarkin refused and put fulfilling his duty before his personal safety.

Vader was portaited in Ep.IV as contrast to Tarkin. The chaotic hound who is restrained by the lawful master holding the chain. Once Tarkin is dead and the hound breaks free, Vader's actions in Ep.V are the opposite to Tarkin.

- Where Tarkin used every opportunity to punish terrorist collaborators and preventing people from turning to the "Rebellion", Vader didn't care to terrorize imperial citizens ("I alter the deal", "It would be unfortunate if I had to leave a garrison here") thus alineating them from the Imperial Cause. Lando, first supportive to the Empire, is turned to the terrorist cause as a result.
- Where Tarkin understood the value of trained officers and stood for the integrity of the Imperial chain of command, Vader killed valuable officers just to please his anger.
- Where Tarkin cared for the safety of the Imperial assets, Vader put them into danger for trivial motives ("asteroids don't concern me"... Bobba was already after the terrorist's tail, no need to risk Star Destroyers into an asteroid field)
- Where Tarkin commanded from the front, and paid with his life for that, Vader commanded from a safe position (the assault on Hoth is led by Veers, while Vader sitted comfortably in his Star Destroyer).

So, please, don't spit on the memory of the true heroes of the Empire by saying that the doublecrosser formerly known as Darth Vader was a responsible leader.

[Cracklord]

Belkar will DIE.

And be DEAD.

Because something is going to KILL him.

And you can't enjoy cake when you're NOT ALIVE. Nor do you breathe when you're in a COFFIN, and NON ANIMATED CORPSES have no use for RETIREMENT DOLLARS.

That's crazy talk.







You completley missed out "He's not long for this world."

[Duaneyo1]

Vader didn't lead from the front? In episode IV he was in a Tie fighter shooting down the rebels who were attacking the Death Star. He also landed on Hoth, him and the storm troopers just blast their way into the hanger as the Falcon escapes. I am sure he didn't scrub the head, but he did see action. Also, I agree that he is lawful EVIL.

[Nimrod's Son]

Vader was portaited in Ep.IV as contrast to Tarkin. The chaotic hound who is restrained by the lawful master holding the chain. Once Tarkin is dead and the hound breaks free, Vader's actions in Ep.V are the opposite to Tarkin.
Except Tarkin wasn't Vader's master. Tarkin only had authority aboard the Death Star; whenever Vader wasn't on the Death Star, Tarkin had absolutely zero influence over him.

So in fairness, it was really rather lawful of Vader to respect Tarkin's wishes while aboard the Death Star. Since he only answers to the Emperor, he could have throttled the life out of Tarkin and then lied and said it was necessary.

[Red XIV]

Well, since Anakin turned to the Dark Side just for saving his significant other... following your logic that means that Vader was not Evil, but Good? :smallbiggrin:
Good does not have a monopoly on the ability to love.

[Zevox]

(The Emperor was only a very powerful dark jedi - Vader was The Dark Lord of the Sith)
Er, no. The Emperor was a Sith - Darth Sidious, the most successful (and possibly the most powerful) of Darth Bane's successors under the Rule of Two branch of the Sith Order. Vader was his apprentice. Both were called "Dark Lords of the Sith," but the Emperor was the master, not Vader.

Zevox

[Nimrod's Son]

Aye. "Dark Jedi" is an entirely EU construct, and a particularly lame one at that.

[Zevox]

Aye. "Dark Jedi" is an entirely EU construct, and a particularly lame one at that.
I'd disagree - it seems only logical that there would be force users who use the "dark side" other than just the Sith, particularly after the Rule of Two was implemented. There are a lot of force-sensitives out there - stands to reason that some beings other than the Jedi and the Sith would learn how to use it. Plus there's always Jedi who start using the "dark side" but don't become Sith, again, particularly after the Rule of Two limited the Sith to only two members.

Of course, I tend to prefer EU ideas over the simplistic views seen in the movies - such as preferring Vergere's explanation that the Force has no light or dark sides from the New Jedi Order Novels. Much more interesting than the black and white views of the canon interpretation.

Zevox

[Snake-Aes]

So, since Belkar only obeys Roy for as long as Roy can outsmart him... does that mean Belkar is LE? :smalltongue:

It's convenient to follow Roy. He has better chances at stabbing stuff while he follows the Order. And he won't be stabbed to death while he follows the order. At least for now. At no time Belkar ever showed any sign of following him because it was the right thing to do, or because it's what always happened. It's not because of a routine, nor stubborness, nor a promise. It's convenience.

[quick_comment]

Vader is Stupid Evil.

Anakin's falling to the dark side was like this:

Anakin: Chancellor, I am having bad dreams. Should I see a doctor for insomnia

Palpatine: No, you should kneel down and obey me as your dark lord and master!

Anakin: No way, Im going to report you to the council!

Palpatine: No, turn to the dark side!

Anakin: Never!

Palpatine: I insist, become a dark jedi!

Anakin: Ok.

Palaptine: Now go kill a bunch of children.

[Cracklord]

It's convenient to follow Roy. He has better chances at stabbing stuff while he follows the Order. And he won't be stabbed to death while he follows the order. At least for now. At no time Belkar ever showed any sign of following him because it was the right thing to do, or because it's what always happened. It's not because of a routine, nor stubborness, nor a promise. It's convenience.

No, he does it, then justify's it later in a half-ass way. He's too stupid to act for himself.


Vader is Stupid Evil.

Anakin's falling to the dark side was like this:

Anakin: Chancellor, I am having bad dreams. Should I see a doctor for insomnia

Palpatine: No, you should kneel down and obey me as your dark lord and master!

Anakin: No way, Im going to report you to the council!

Palpatine: No, turn to the dark side!

Anakin: Never!

Palpatine: I insist, become a dark jedi!

Anakin: Ok.

Palaptine: Now go kill a bunch of children.

No, it was more.
Anakin: Oh gods, what have I done? No... No, please...

Palpatine: Join me.

Anakin: OK.

[Nimrod's Son]

I'd disagree - it seems only logical that there would be force users who use the "dark side" other than just the Sith, particularly after the Rule of Two was implemented. There are a lot of force-sensitives out there - stands to reason that some beings other than the Jedi and the Sith would learn how to use it.
Oh, I agree... to be honest, it's more the terminology that bothers me. Dark Jedi? It's like the allies in WWII branding themselves as "The Good Nazis".

[Zevox]

Oh, I agree... to be honest, it's more the terminology that bothers me. Dark Jedi? It's like the allies in WWII branding themselves as "The Good Nazis".
True enough, they could have used a more original name. Oh well, nothing for it at this point.

Zevox

[GSFB]

Lying, cheating, betraying, breaking rules... NONE of this means DIDDLYPOO about whether your character is "lawful" or "chaotic."

It isn't about sticking to someone else's pre-conceived ideas about what is allowed. It is about sticking to YOUR OWN ideas.

A lawful character plans things out and carries them through as planned, methodically, with purpose. That purpose could be at odds with existing laws and rules, the plan may involve breaking every law, rule, code, procedure, and process. The breaking isn't chaotic. But the sticking by the plan is lawful.

A chaotic character is random and spontaneous. He might have a goal, and might formulate an intricate plan, but then might say "nah, I'll just kill him and take his stuff" instead (if evil).

Darth Vader is clearly lawful. He has a long term plan and methodically plots out how to achieve it. Then he makes it happen. If that means slaughtering a planet, so be it.

Of course, I could see an argument that ANAKIN was chaotic - he was rash and impulsive. But then he learned to control his anger and fear and allowed the Dark Side to flow through him as Vader. By the time we first meet Vader - as in the original Star Wars - he is clearly a paragon of lawful evilness.

All that aside, Belkar is...

going head-first into the Snarl during the climax battle.

[Impnemo]

Vader was Neutral Evil. Lawful alignments don't "alter deals", they craft contracts that need no altering. He said what he had to in order to get Lando's cooperation but Lando figured out what it seems others haven't, Vader had no intention of abiding by the agreement and leaving him in charge.

The original material made a great point of Vader's respect for Tarkin for his contributions during the Clone Wars (not the retconned Clone Wars mind you). Tarkin had Vader's "leash" not out of subservience to the law but out of respect for the mans capabilities.

The flagship Executor became known in the Imperial Fleet as the fast track to a short lived promotion. There are regulations dealing with dereliction of duty but Vader went beyond their judicious application. The original Ep 5 book makes a great deal out of Captain Needa's sacrifice and how it spared his crew. He knew personally apologizing to Vader was a death sentence, and so did his bridge crew. He personally made no mistake, his orders were correct quite unlike any case that could be made for Admiral Ozzel.

He is quite clearly portrayed as one who will do what suits him, when it suits him, because it suits him yet is not chaotic in his whims or planning. Text book neutral, clearly evil.

"Neutral evil is called the "Malefactor" alignment. Characters of this alignment are typically selfish and have no qualms about turning on their allies-of-the-moment. They have no compunctions about harming others to get what they want, but neither will they go out of their way to cause carnage or mayhem when they see no direct benefit to it."

[The Pilgrim]

Lying, cheating, betraying, breaking rules... NONE of this means DIDDLYPOO about whether your character is "lawful" or "chaotic."

Wrong. Lying, cheating, betraying and breaking rules IS what marks you as Lawful or Chaotic.

Time to Quote the D&D "Bible":

- Lawful evil:
is referred to as the "Dominator" or "Diabolic" alignment. Characters of this alignment show a combination of desirable and undesirable traits: while they typically obey their superiors and keep their word (trustworthy), they care nothing for the rights and freedoms of other individuals. Examples of this alignment include tyrants, devils, honorable but undiscriminating mercenary types, and soldiers who follow the chain of command but enjoy killing for its own sake.

- Neutral evil:
is called the "Malefactor" alignment. Characters of this alignment are typically selfish and have no qualms about turning on their allies-of-the-moment. They have no compunctions about harming others to get what they want, but neither will they go out of their way to cause carnage or mayhem when they see no direct benefit to it. An example would be an assassin, who has little regard for formal laws but does not needlessly kill. A villain of this alignment can be more dangerous than either lawful or chaotic evil characters, since he is neither bound by any sort of honor or tradition nor disorganized and pointlessly violent.

- Chaotic evil:
is referred to as the "Destroyer" or "Demonic" alignment. Characters of this alignment tend to have little respect for rules, other peoples' lives, or anything but their own selfish desires. They typically only behave themselves out of fear of punishment.

To be more precise:

- Law implies:
honor, trustworthiness, obedience to authority, and reliability. On the downside, lawfulness can include close-mindedness, reactionary adherence to tradition, judgmentalness, and a lack of adaptability. Those who consciously promote lawfulness say that only lawful behavior creates a society in which people can depend on each other and make the right decisions in full confidence that others will act as they should.

- Chaos implies:
freedom, adaptability, and flexibility. On the downside, chaos can include recklessness, resentment toward legitimate authority, arbitrary actions, and irresponsibility. Those who promote chaotic behavior say that only unfettered personal freedom allows people to express themselves fully and lets society benefit from the potential that its individuals have within them.

- Someone who is neutral:
with respect to law and chaos has a normal respect for authority and feels neither a compulsion to obey nor a compulsion to rebel. They are honest but can be tempted into lying or deceiving others.


Darth Vader is clearly lawful. He has a long term plan and methodically plots out how to achieve it. Then he makes it happen. If that means slaughtering a planet, so be it.

Let's see... did he respect autority? Only out of fear for punishment, because as soon as he finds a way to kill his Emperor, he ploys to do so. In fact, out of fear is how he rules when given the chance. No respect for tradition, rules, honor or whatever.

I can see the point in the argument that Vader is NE. He follows his own agenda, respecting the rules only when it suits him. However, Vader gives PLENTY examples of disorganized and pointless violence: Choking to death that POW at the beggining of Ep.IV. Attemping to kill on the spot a high-ranking officer just because he shares different views on religious matters. The killing spee of capable Imperial Admirals and Captains in Ep.V...

Come on. Take Kubota, a LE type. When Therka plain lies him about the island affair, Kubota knows perfectly that his apprentice is lying, but congratulates her for his skill to give petty excuses and weasel off the responsibility. In Ep.V, when Needa has the guts to full take the responsibility for the failure, Vader just kills him on the spot. A LE type would have commended him for his honor. A NE would have spared him for his uselfuness. Only a CE would have given to his anger.

[Asta Kask]

Belkar isn't Vader. If he's anything, he's the Joker. Can't you hear Belkar say this:

Do I really look like a guy with a plan? You know what I am? I'm a dog chasing cars. I wouldn't know what to do with one if I caught it. You know, I just... do things. The mob has plans, the cops have plans, Gordon's got plans. You know, they're schemers. Schemers trying to control their little worlds. I'm not a schemer. I try to show the schemers how pathetic their attempts to control things really are. So, when I say... Ah, come here.

When I say that you and your girlfriend was nothing personal, you know that I'm telling the truth. It's the schemers that put you where you are. You were a schemer, you had plans, and look where that got you.

I just did what I do best. I took your little plan and I turned it on itself. Look what I did to this city with a few drums of gas and a couple of bullets. Hmmm? You know... You know what I've noticed? Nobody panics when things go "according to plan." Even if the plan is horrifying! If, tomorrow, I tell the press that, like, a gang banger will get shot, or a truckload of soldiers will be blown up, nobody panics, because it's all "part of the plan." But when I say that one little old mayor will die, well then everyone loses their minds!

Introduce a little anarchy. Upset the established order, and everything becomes chaos. I'm an agent of chaos. Oh, and you know the thing about chaos? It's fair!

[Dark Faun]

I'd say it sounds too nice for Belkar.

[Tenebrais]

I'd say it sounds too nice for Belkar.

I could imagine him saying that after he's stabbed them a few times and is completely sure they're dead. And can't find anyone else to kill yet.

[Asta Kask]

I'd say it sounds too nice for Belkar.

Not really. The fall of Harvey Dent and the fall of Miko Miyazaki has many parallels. Except that Harvey was much more sympathetic than Miko ever was...

[nybbler]

The two axes aren't as independent as D&D ideally makes them out to be. Not keeping one's word is often Chaotic, but it can also be Evil. Vader is pretty clearly lawful; he's #2 in a hierarchical organization, and follows his orders up until the very end. His betrayals of those below him are a prerogative of his position (and thus lawful), and his first attempted betrayal of the Emperor is according to the Sith code; the apprentice is supposed to try to defeat his master.

(Anakin, pre-Vader, was pretty Chaotic, but who would believe a Lawful teenager anyway?)

Belkar is going to die, but I doubt it will be his evil which will do him in. Nor will he die in some great self-sacrificing redeeming act; way too cliche. No, Belkar is going to die humorously, for the most trivial of reasons.

[Cracklord]

Belkar isn't Vader. If he's anything, he's the Joker. Can't you hear Belkar say this:

Do I really look like a guy with a plan? You know what I am? I'm a dog chasing cars. I wouldn't know what to do with one if I caught it. You know, I just... do things. The mob has plans, the cops have plans, Gordon's got plans. You know, they're schemers. Schemers trying to control their little worlds. I'm not a schemer. I try to show the schemers how pathetic their attempts to control things really are. So, when I say... Ah, come here.

When I say that you and your girlfriend was nothing personal, you know that I'm telling the truth. It's the schemers that put you where you are. You were a schemer, you had plans, and look where that got you.

I just did what I do best. I took your little plan and I turned it on itself. Look what I did to this city with a few drums of gas and a couple of bullets. Hmmm? You know... You know what I've noticed? Nobody panics when things go "according to plan." Even if the plan is horrifying! If, tomorrow, I tell the press that, like, a gang banger will get shot, or a truckload of soldiers will be blown up, nobody panics, because it's all "part of the plan." But when I say that one little old mayor will die, well then everyone loses their minds!

Introduce a little anarchy. Upset the established order, and everything becomes chaos. I'm an agent of chaos. Oh, and you know the thing about chaos? It's fair!
No he isn't. You know why? Because Belkar is small scale. The Joker holds an entire city at randsom, Belkar kills a few people in a barfight, makes some twisted observations then moves on. He's nothing like the Joker, he's a Joker wannabe. No class, no style, no imagination.
Belkar is a thug.

[hamishspence]

Betrayal can take the form of not keeping word- and it is associated with Evil, by BoVD.

Betraying bad guys, less clear. Especially if you only joined them to betray them to the cause of good- undercover agent.

[Cryssandra]

Or maybe he will become a lich!! :)

Aww Man?!?!
that'd just be too mean!
:belkar:Belkar... AS A LICH?!?!?
He'd be UNSTOPPABLE

[hamishspence]

not likely in 3.5 (caster level) Maybe Death Knight, or something of that ilk.

[Timberboar]

not likely in 3.5 (caster level) Maybe Death Knight, or something of that ilk.

Pfeh. Who'd want to roll DK, what with all the nerfs coming in 3.2?

Wait... where am I?

[hamishspence]

In 4th ed, anyone can be a lich, in 3.0 and 3.5, only casters can.

[sealemon]

Wild ass theory time:

Kind of a vague prediction here; simply based on the fact the Rich like creating expectations then throwing in twists. Who said the Belkar would be the ONLY person "dying" by then? For all we know, we could be looking at some sort of TPK, or even something on a larger scale...the Snarl could be realsed by then, only to somehow be defeated and the universe restored again

[Murdim]

In 4th ed, anyone can be a lich, in 3.0 and 3.5, only casters can.Well, mechanically speaking, Belkar is a caster. Whether they really can cast spell or not, rangers get a caster level of (class level)/2 at level 4. He just needs a high-level arcane magic user to craft the phylactery, cast a 7th-level spell and carry out the secret ritual.

[Haven]

Wild ass theory time:

Kind of a vague prediction here; simply based on the fact the Rich like creating expectations then throwing in twists. Who said the Belkar would be the ONLY person "dying" by then? For all we know, we could be looking at some sort of TPK, or even something on a larger scale...the Snarl could be realsed by then, only to somehow be defeated and the universe restored again

Well, Elan has to get a happy ending, so this seems unlikely. That said, Durkon's going to die (though it's possible that just means he'll stay in human lands all his life) so there's that.

[hamishspence]

Unless we are insisting the lich have the minimum caster level needed, even if they don't have the feat, and are having help making it (Xykon)

Which is reasonable, liches with a caster level of less than 11 aren't supposed to exist.

[quick_comment]

Well, Elan has to get a happy ending, so this seems unlikely. That said, Durkon's going to die (though it's possible that just means he'll stay in human lands all his life) so there's that.

Elan's happy ending could be the chaotic good afterlife.

[Cookbook]

Elan's happy ending could be the chaotic good afterlife.

I don't know. He doesn't seem to be very happy with the thought of being in different afterlife than his buddies, see song after Roy died. Especially if you think Haley is something than CG at the moment.

[Asta Kask]

No he isn't. You know why? Because Belkar is small scale. The Joker holds an entire city at randsom, Belkar kills a few people in a barfight, makes some twisted observations then moves on. He's nothing like the Joker, he's a Joker wannabe. No class, no style, no imagination.
Belkar is a thug.

You are correct, of course. However, the same would go for him being like Vader. So perhaps I should say that he is more like the Joker than he is like Vader.

And Belkar has style.

[Cracklord]

You are correct, of course. However, the same would go for him being like Vader. So perhaps I should say that he is more like the Joker than he is like Vader.

And Belkar has style.

Not when compared to the Joker.
Though I admit that is setting the bar pretty high.
Still, all these plans and what ifs really get to me. Face it people, Belkar isn't worth the effort, he's a two-bit inconsistent thug with delusions of adequacy. He's a psychopath, but he never does anything with it. He kills a few people, but he spends more time thinking up a half-ass explanations for why he's doing good. Sure, that is partly to keep the story going, but that's not a valid argument.

Xykon is like the Joker because he thinks big, he doesn't stop and justify stuff, he doesn't pretend that if I save Hinjo it will give me the opportunity to be more evil, he doesn't bother to fake character development, he simply is what he is. And we love him for it.

Redcloak is closer to Darth Vader, a deeply flawed individual, who is arrogant about perceived power and indignities, afraid to look back and admit he was wrong because of what that will be admitting to himself, and not allowing himself to start caring about anyone.

Belkar is pure nasty, not evil. He thinks he's higher on the chain then he is, like those kids you see in superman costumes. He's just a jerk who always tries to come up with a cutting retort magnified by ten or so.

People say he's going to become an avatar or a demon king, but he doesn't have a chance it that regard. Even if he was a paragon of fighting skills of Mythic proportions, he still wouldn't. Why? Because he doesn't have any dreams. The Joker might not have a plan, but he aims at the sky, and achieves great (Terrible) things out of sheer audacity. Darth Vader works for the most evil guy in Science Fiction since Baron Hardoken, and blows up planets.

Belkar stabs people. Once every ten strips or so he does something mildly evil. Sure, he's a bad person, but both of them are so far out of his league they've entered Pluto's orbit.

You could maybe compare him to the average Saturday morning cartoon villain. More sad then bad. Little calf thinks he's a mighty ox.

No God of Darkness worth his vintage Spike Armor is going to give him a desk job, much less have him on the team.

Now I know this isn't going to convince you anything, and I know I'll keep seeing more of these threads, but I had to get that off my chest.

[The Pilgrim]

The two axes aren't as independent as D&D ideally makes them out to be. Not keeping one's word is often Chaotic, but it can also be Evil. Vader is pretty clearly lawful; he's #2 in a hierarchical organization, and follows his orders up until the very end. His betrayals of those below him are a prerogative of his position (and thus lawful), and his first attempted betrayal of the Emperor is according to the Sith code; the apprentice is supposed to try to defeat his master.

(Anakin, pre-Vader, was pretty Chaotic, but who would believe a Lawful teenager anyway?)

Xykon also belongs to a hierarchy in Team Evil and that doesn't make him any less Chaotic.

In fact, the way Xykon interacts with his minions is very similar to Vader: Both doesn't bother with the day-to-day management and just leave a mook as figurehead (Redcloack - Needa, Piet, etc...). Both have little remorse in pointless sacrifying their minions. And when things get screwed both pay it by bashing their puppets.

And they use their powers quite similar, too. Vader: Choke, dead. Xykon: Energy Drain, dead.

Another similarity between Xykon and Vader is that SW fans get wet thinking about Vader and we all OOTS fans get wet thinking about Xykon. :smalltongue:

You get fooled by Vader's fachade. The voice, the breath, the uniform... but behind that mask there is no Lawfulness at all, just the same teenager doing what he damn pleases.

[Asta Kask]

Xykon is like the Joker because he thinks big, he doesn't stop and justify stuff, he doesn't pretend that if I save Hinjo it will give me the opportunity to be more evil, he doesn't bother to fake character development, he simply is what he is. And we love him for it.

Oh, this I agree with. I loved seeing Xykon get serious for the first time.


Now I know this isn't going to convince you anything, and I know I'll keep seeing more of these threads, but I had to get that off my chest.

A better way to state it would be Joker Wannabe. However, I would like to remind you of two things:

1) The comment was made in the context of comparing Belkar to Vadar (whether that was the OP's intent or not).

2) Belkar is like the Joker in that he doesn't just kill people. He wants to corrupt them, to bring them down from their pedestal. Like he did with Miko. This is exactly what the Joker is all about (at least in The Dark Knight - the Joker has had many incarnations over the years).

[Cracklord]

2) Belkar is like the Joker in that he doesn't just kill people. He wants to corrupt them, to bring them down from their pedestal. Like he did with Miko. This is exactly what the Joker is all about (at least in The Dark Knight - the Joker has had many incarnations over the years).

Only the Joker's better at it. Or in fact, occasionally successful at it.
And My Joker (the comic one) has killed more then three thousand people, and endangered the lives of billions. Yes he tortures people, yes he brings them down to his level (Hello Haley), but the Joker doesn't have moments of conscious, doesn't justify good deeds to himself.
Comparing Belkar to the Joker is like comparing George Bush to Stalin.

[Tenebrais]

Xykon also belongs to a hierarchy in Team Evil and that doesn't make him any less Chaotic.

Being the leader of a hierarchy allows you to be as chaotic as you like - see Shojo. Being #2 is very different, since you have to follow orders (and if you don't, you're not part of the hierarchy). I've always perceived Chaos/Law as being a choice between following your own rules or following rules imposed upon you. Vader always followed instructions given to him. his position as second-in-command gave him rather more freedom than most, but his abuse of that freedom seems more evil than chaotic since he's not actually breaking any rules.

Of course, all this is based on my personal interpretation of lawful/chaotic which is probably different to the official one. I think mine's less ambiguous but you don't have to agree.

[Vaarsuvius4181]

Why Do We Live In A World Where Someones Life Is Determined Solely By Their Alignment!?

[ResplendentFire]

In addition to everything that has already been said by marquiz (most notably the "I am altering the deal, pray that I do not alter it any further" quote, that pretty much settles the issue), I have to add:

"Luke, you can destroy the Emperor. He has foreseen this. It is your destiny. Join me, and together we can rule the galaxy as father and son"

Betraying your Liege and taking over his position.

Totally Lawful.

Sure.

I seem to recall that this is the Devil's backstory, and by extension, Asmodeus'. Not that they succeeded, but, you know, the whole model of Lawful Evil involves divine coup d'etat.

[Cracklord]

He said that to Padme too. Vader's all talk, he didn't have the guts to do it until it was almost too late.

[SadisticFishing]

Vader punishes people for failure, not fun.

Darth Vader is Lawful Evil, by and far. Arguing that point requires a lack of understanding for the character.

[Asta Kask]

I find your lack of faith disturbing. (http://motivatedphotos.com/?id=665)

[The Pilgrim]

Vader punishes people for failure, not fun.

Darth Vader is Lawful Evil, by and far. Arguing that point requires a lack of understanding for the character.

Vader chokes people because that's what you do when you are in the Dark Side: Giving to your anger.

Arguing that point really requires a lack of understanding not just about the character but about the whole setting.

[The Pilgrim]

I seem to recall that this is the Devil's backstory, and by extension, Asmodeus'. Not that they succeeded, but, you know, the whole model of Lawful Evil involves divine coup d'etat.

The Devil doesn't go around saying "I am altering the deal, pray that I do not alter it any further" to his customers. He plans things so that you sign the contract without realizing what you are gonna get and the real price for it, but once you have signed, he doesn't tell you "ok, so now I alter the deal and I grab your sould and forget about eternal youth". And if you are able to outsmart him (ie "yours will be the first soul to cross the brige... oh, look, it's a wolf, hard luck"), he swallows it.

Great scheming is one of the trademarks of a LE. The Devil does it. Palpatine does it. Redcloack does it. Kubota did it. Vader? Vader was never able to plan further than his ass. The closest thing to it is when he sets the ambush at Bespin, and he did it because the rebels where traveling sub-light (so plenty time to go there) and Bobba Fett told him about their destination. An still he was unable to avoid dishonoring his deal with Lando.

[Impnemo]

The Devil doesn't go around saying "I am altering the deal, pray that I do not alter it any further" to his customers... he was unable to avoid dishonoring his deal with Lando.

Bingo. He made the deal to ensure Lando's cooperation and when his cooperation was no longer needed he discarded it. This is not Lawful, Lawful would have carefully worded the deal to need no 'altering'. Nor is it Chaotic, Vader is not acting on fanciful whims. Its Neutral. He has a goal, a purpose, and will do what he will to achieve it. Laws, rules, agreements be damned.

[SadisticFishing]

Okay, as long we're not arguing Chaotic Evil, I'm fine with it.

[GSFB]

while they typically obey their superiors and keep their word (trustworthy)

typically selfish and have no qualms about turning on their allies-of-the-moment

Characters of this alignment tend to have little respect for rules

Well, you just made my point.

typically /= always

The obeying superiors, keeping words, respect for rules, etc., are NOT defining traits of law-chaos. They may be indicators, sure, but NOT always so.

You can consistenly lie and be LE. I mean, aren't devils known for being diabolical liars? Isn't Baalzebul the lord of LIES?

Vader is extremely predictable. He has a long term plan for galactic domination and the defeat of the Emperor. And he acts consistently in a manner calculated to advance that plan. He is not whimsical. He is not random. He is not spontaneous.

He is lawful evil.

[Zevox]

Isn't Baalzebul the lord of LIES?
Actually, that's Lord of Flies, not lies.

Zevox

[hamishspence]

BoVD: p 58:

"Lord of the Flies! Lord of the Lies! Baalzebul, with your sly skill, your dark power- you are the master of my soul!"

The disciple of Baalzebul is a liar, a cheat, and a thief. She is more likely to kill a paladin while he sleeps than face him in direct combat. She uses deceit and trickery to get what she wants, betraying even her family or closest friends to achieve her goals. Her abilities make her an astute prevaricator and a sneaky backstabber, but she can wield her lord's powerful influence with everything from devils to flies if she needs to.

Disciples of Baalzebul rarely have allies. They use and manipulate others but eventually betray them.

Alignment- Any evil.

p 158:

One of the mightiest of the archdevils, Baalzebul is known as the Lord of the Flies, Lord of Lies, the Fallen One, and more recently, the Slug Archduke.

[Necrus Philius]

Here's an obvious one, Polymorphed into something that doesn't breathe.

Epic death would be Vaarsuvius polymorphs him into a fish on a dare to see if Mr.Scruffy really loves him. It ends with him loving the taste.

[The Pilgrim]

Well, you just made my point.

typically /= always

Typically means that, at least, sometimes. I fail to see when Darth Vader has keept his word, for example.


You can consistenly lie and be LE. I mean, aren't devils known for being diabolical liars?

Lie, yes.

Break a deal? hardly.


Vader is extremely predictable. He has a long term plan for galactic domination and the defeat of the Emperor. And he acts consistently in a manner calculated to advance that plan. He is not whimsical. He is not random. He is not spontaneous.

He is lawful evil.

Yeah, so predictable, than the Emperor totally predicted he was going to be grabbed and thrown into the reactor shaft by Vader.

And yeah, Anakin's returning from the Dark Side in Ep.VI was by no means random. I'm pretty sure that by the beggining of Ep.VI, Vader was already planning to suddently return to the Light and killing the Emperor, just moments after helping him in his attemp to turn his own son to the Dark Side.

Note the sarcasm.

[The Blackbird]

Why Do We Live In A World Where Someones Life Is Determined Solely By Their Alignment!?

Why Do We Live In A World Where We Capitalize All Our Words?

[hamishspence]

Given the collection of Clones in the Dark Empire series, it does imply the Emperor planned for the contingency of Vader attacking him at some point. (given the Sith Rule of apprentice overthrowing master when they are ready, its not that far off)

When the Emperor says "take your father's place at my side" it seems as though failure to realize that this would heavily damage Vader's loyalty, would be a bit of an Idiot Ball moment.

Its not clear if these clones are actually "the real Emperor" in the sense of being possessed by his disembodied spirit. Some later EU character's have said "Personally, I'm not convinced it was really him"

[GSFB]

I think the material quoted on Baalzebul makes all the points that need to be made.

[The Pilgrim]

I think the material quoted on Baalzebul makes all the points that need to be made.

Actually settles nothing as it ends with a wonderful:

Alignment- Any evil.

Thus, can't be used to measure the Law-Chaos axis.

[hamishspence]

Still, the idea of a devotee of the Lord of the Lies, or him himself, or his most favored devil minions, being unable to tell a lie because they are "creatures of law" seems a bit off.

Most of the Disciple and Thrall PRCs are Any Evil, though Demogorgon's is CE only, and Asmodeus's is LE or NE only.

[The Pilgrim]

Still, the idea of a devotee of the Lord of the Lies, or him himself, or his most favored devil minions, being unable to tell a lie because they are "creatures of law" seems a bit off.

I would never defend the point that a LE can't lie. However, a LE admiting he has lied is a different issue.

From my way of understanding the alignment, a LE is the type that, if not honorable, at least cares about "keeping face" and looking honorable and trusthworthy despite being neither.

I mean, a LE lies to you but convinces you he has not. A NE lies to you and doesn't care if you realize or not. A CE lies to you and probably will tell you in your face just for amusement, for the look of your face.

[hamishspence]

Except for that one CE guy in Waterdeep: City of Splendours who never tells a lie- because he's an ex-paladin who won't admit he's fallen.

But yes, LEs are probably more likely to be careful about it.