PDA

View Full Version : [3.5] Mordenkainen



Gorbash
2009-07-01, 11:30 AM
Quick question - does anyone know where can I find stats for 3.5 Mordenkainen?

Starscream
2009-07-01, 11:33 AM
I think they have him in the Epic Level Handbook somewhere. Not sure though, don't own that one.

Gorbash
2009-07-01, 11:46 AM
Man, how in the nine hells didn't I think of looking there? I flipped through dozens of Dragon/Dungeon Magazines, and he's in ELH...

And HA! I knew my wizard had higher Int than him! :smallbiggrin:

herrhauptmann
2009-07-01, 01:11 PM
Out of curiousity, what are his stats and feats?
I've read some of the background material for greyhawk, and many of the 'Super powerful wizards' really are anything but that.
Like the one who's a ranger 10/wizard 10, with TWF style.

Gorbash
2009-07-01, 02:58 PM
Yes, that is the case mostly. Around here we talk about Wizards with Int 34, Mordenkainen has 27 at lvl 27.

Str 10
Dex 17
Con 18
Int 27
Wis 15
Cha 18

Feats: Great Fortitude, Combat Casting, Brew Potion, Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes, Quicken Spell, Heighten Spell, Craft Wondrous Item, Maximize Spell, Spell Penetration, Craft Staff, Improved Spell Capacity (10th),
Improved Spell Capacity (11th), Improved Spell Capacity (12th), Improved Metamagic, Epic Spellcasting, Epic Spell Penetration.

He can somehow cast 12 spells of 3rd lvl per day.

Shpadoinkle
2009-07-01, 03:09 PM
e can somehow cast 12 spells of 3rd lvl per day.

Ring of Wizardry?

herrhauptmann
2009-07-01, 03:36 PM
Only 2 craft feats? Hmmm... You'd expect ring and staff, or rod and staff. Not potion.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-07-01, 03:48 PM
Yes, that is the case mostly. Around here we talk about Wizards with Int 34, Mordenkainen has 27 at lvl 27.

Str 10
Dex 17
Con 18
Int 27
Wis 15
Cha 18

Feats: Great Fortitude, Combat Casting, Brew Potion, Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes, Quicken Spell, Heighten Spell, Craft Wondrous Item, Maximize Spell, Spell Penetration, Craft Staff, Improved Spell Capacity (10th), Improved Spell Capacity (11th), Improved Spell Capacity (12th), Improved Metamagic, Epic Spellcasting, Epic Spell Penetration.

He can somehow cast 12 spells of 3rd lvl per day.Parts that need to change are bold. Not to mention his lack of PrCs. Seriously, WotC needs to hire Tippy or Tidesinger or someone to write their famous NPCs.

AstralFire
2009-07-01, 03:52 PM
Tippy or Tidesinger? I think anyone capable of pointing out the Big 5 with a rudimentary explanation could do better.

The Professor
2009-07-01, 03:56 PM
Parts that need to change are bold. Not to mention his lack of PrCs. Seriously, WotC needs to hire Tippy or Tidesinger or someone to write their famous NPCs.

While I certainly agree with the bolded parts... Having Tippy design the famous NPCs? Then it'd be less "Hey guys, Mordenkainen! He's famous! I bet he was some menial task for us to do!" and more "It's Mordenkainen! He knew he'd meet us at least a week in advance, knows how we fight, and if he has it in for us, we're doomed."

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-07-01, 04:02 PM
While I certainly agree with the bolded parts... Having Tippy design the famous NPCs? Then it'd be less "Hey guys, Mordenkainen! He's famous! I bet he was some menial task for us to do!" and more "It's Mordenkainen! He knew he'd meet us at least a week in advance, knows how we fight, and if he has it in for us, we're doomed."He's a 27th level Wizard with the closest thing to a suitcase nuke in D&D named after him. He is legendary for his casting abilities. He should be considerably more powerful than any CL 21 Wizard. Fear that you might annoy him should be default. As-is, he's not.

Doc Roc
2009-07-01, 04:03 PM
It's Mordenkainen. Those are just the stats he wants you to know.
After all, what's a few casts of mindrape on a few writers when you've saved the world so many times?

I do have a Mordenkainen build in my back pocket, a sort of image in my head. It's how I want to think of the last truly tangible avatar I have for Gary Gygax. Warm, affably omnipotent, strongly neutral, and invested in something larger and better than you or I.

Morty
2009-07-01, 04:17 PM
I'm trying to see what's wrong or why anyone should even care that canonical NPCs aren't twinked out, but I really got nothing.

Oslecamo
2009-07-01, 04:23 PM
He's a 27th level Wizard with the closest thing to a suitcase nuke in D&D named after him. He is legendary for his casting abilities. He should be considerably more powerful than any CL 21 Wizard. Fear that you might annoy him should be default. As-is, he's not.

It would be quite annoying if people bought the ELH and the NPCs needed rules from other books to worck. Specially books wich hadn't been publicized yet.

Besides ELH is 3.0. By the time 3.5 came out, Mormekdain has gained so many levels and gotten so powerfull that WOTC didn't bothered to publicize his stats again, because they would fill several books of their own and basically come down to "Mormekdain wins".

And even if he had taken toughness as his only feat at all levels, as a 27th level pure wizard he would still be bloody fearsome.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-07-01, 04:25 PM
I'm trying to see what's wrong or why anyone should even care that canonical NPCs aren't twinked out, but I really got nothing.Legendary Canonical NPCs, ones who are Epic Casters that the Devils fear, should be able to destroy any low-epic party. That one can't. I'm not talking necessarily Cindy here, but taking Combat Casting? Really? That's not unoptimized, that's saying 'I want an evil party to kill me and take my stuff'.

Doc Roc
2009-07-01, 04:26 PM
I'm trying to see what's wrong or why anyone should even care that canonical NPCs aren't twinked out, but I really got nothing.

We're not asking for twinked out. We're just asking for sensible, and maybe to follow the tips that they themselves provided. I'm gonna presume we just share completely different perspectives on the Simulationism Vs. Gamism debate. The ELH\SRD themselves have the vast majority of the "tricks" we're talking about.


Because improved metamagic is a really well-hidden feat. :: gently sardonic ::

Oslecamo
2009-07-01, 04:32 PM
Legendary Canonical NPCs, ones who are Epic Casters that the Devils fear, should be able to destroy any low-epic party. That one can't. I'm not talking necessarily Cindy here, but taking Combat Casting? Really? That's not unoptimized, that's saying 'I want an evil party to kill me and take my stuff'.

This is 3.0 we're talking about. Core and ELH only. Mormekdain was level 1 long long ago. What did you want him to pick when he started his career? Toughness?

Keld Denar
2009-07-01, 04:33 PM
Falls into the trap of "if you stat it, they will want to kill it". Better to just say that Mordy shows up, nukes the bajebus outa ya, no save, and be done with it. Like the guy who tried to stat up a Supernova...whats the point? It doesn't matter if you roll a hundred thousand dice or a million, likewise it doesn't matter what Mordy's actual stats are. You piss him off, you die.

Game over mang! Game over!

Gorbash
2009-07-01, 04:40 PM
This is 3.0 we're talking about. Core and ELH only. Mormekdain was level 1 long long ago. What did you want him to pick when he started his career? Toughness?

I can understand a misspell of one letter, but there's some serious difference between Mordenkainen and Mormekdain.

Thurbane
2009-07-01, 04:45 PM
Our group just encountered Mordy in Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk. :smallsmile:

AvatarZero
2009-07-01, 04:52 PM
Hmm. According to Wikipedia, Mordenkainen is Gary Gygax's PC Wizard (citation needed) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mordenkainen). I didn't know that.

I wonder if Nystul, Rary, or Bigby are player characters for other big names in DnD.

Also, can you imagine if Disjunction was invested as a custom spell by a player in a modern game?

AstralFire
2009-07-01, 05:09 PM
Virtually all of the trademarked humanoids mentioned in the names of core feats and spells - Robilar (not a wizard!), Mordenkainen, Bigby, Melf - are from Gygax's groups.

Drider
2009-07-01, 05:55 PM
Virtually all of the trademarked humanoids mentioned in the names of core feats and spells - Robilar (not a wizard!), Mordenkainen, Bigby, Melf - are from Gygax's groups.

I believe bigby was mord's minion, who was originally evil, that he charmed+permanted and "redeemed". Not completely sure where I heard that, but i remember thinking that was the case. (it might not be canon, but I'm 60% sure it is)

ocato
2009-07-01, 06:02 PM
There's a sidebar in one of the 4e books that says that all of the high and mighty wizards who have spells/rituals named after them are old Gygaxian Era PCs.

Shpadoinkle
2009-07-01, 06:29 PM
I recall from some article about something that Gygax wrote that Bigby had brothers named (really) Rigby and Digby. The way it was written it was clear he was talking about an actual game he was involved in, not a story or something.

Keld Denar
2009-07-01, 06:31 PM
They are all NPCs from the world of Greyhawk, Gygax's brainchild. Whether they were PCs or NPCs, I do not know, but they are all from Greyhawk cannon. For instance, Lord Robilar, as mentioned above, was a fighter who was part of the hero's who tricked Iuz (bad guy) and imprisoned him in the ruins beneath Castle Greyhawk. If you can, see if you can get your hands on some of the year 8 Living Greyhawk modules. They involve a lot of showdown between Mordy, Tensor, Rary, Otiluke, and a few other of the famed Circle of 8.

Also, I refer you to www.canonfire.com, the most expansive collection of Greyhawk lore I've ever seen.



The Circle of Eight
The Circle was founded in 571 CY by Mordenkainen, from the remnants of the Citadel. The exact make-up of the eight has changed over time and has continued to remain somewhat of a secret to the general populace of the Flanaess.

Among the group's original members were former Citadel member Bigby, as well as the wizards Bucknard, Drawmij, Leomund, Nystul, Otto, and Rary. In 574 CY, Leomund left to explore other planes of existence, and was replaced by former Citadel member Tenser.


Also from canonfire:


Creative origins
Originally a player character invented by Gary Gygax, Mordenkainen's name is derived from the names Mordecai and Lemminkainen.

Kaiyanwang
2009-07-02, 02:14 AM
In one Dragon Magazie should be Iggwilv stats, too. Far more powerfut than mordenkainen, Level 30 or so. If you wonder who's she, take a look in FCI. She was previously known as Natasha (Tasha).

Anyway, when you see Mister M. stats, think about 4 things:

- When it was written, he was core + ELH

- Not everybody play optimized

- He's a Wiz. Can kick you ass anyway with the right spell selection, IMHO

- Mordy was great more for his political manipulations and his "true neutral" attitude.

Coidzor
2009-07-02, 03:31 AM
Indeed. I think a couple of the Greyhawk gods are ascended Gygaxian PCs. Most notably Farlhganan or what have you.


I can understand a misspell of one letter, but there's some serious difference between Mordenkainen and Mormekdain.

Sounds like someone mispronounced the summoning ritual again! :smalltongue:

SilverSheriff
2009-07-02, 03:49 AM
Indeed. I think a couple of the Greyhawk gods are ascended Gygaxian PCs. Most notably Farlhganan or what have you.

St. Cuthbert?:smallwink:

Fishy
2009-07-02, 04:31 AM
I do have a Mordenkainen build in my back pocket, a sort of image in my head. It's how I want to think of the last truly tangible avatar I have for Gary Gygax. Warm, affably omnipotent, strongly neutral, and invested in something larger and better than you or I.

I don't really think Warm and Affable really apply to the creator of the Tomb of Horrors.

Nor do they really apply to the mage who invented the ultimate weapon to destroy other mages.

Also the whole 'start beating up on Good guys the moment you've finished helping them win, to preserve Balance' thing is kind of mean.

Kaiyanwang
2009-07-02, 04:40 AM
Nor do they really apply to the mage who invented the ultimate weapon to destroy other mages and make melee equipment uselees as well as some artifact destruction quest as well as making debuffing/counterspell at high level a cold war issue.


Fixed it for you.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-07-02, 05:01 AM
I think Celerity, or specifically saving your Celerity for when the opponent uses Celerity, is closer to a cold war version of combat.

The stats for all of the setting icons are a joke. I only take them as suggestions for the character's flavor when rebuilding them to be viable. A while back I ran a setting in which nothing with class levels was capable of becoming epic (though an ECL in excess of 20 was possible with level adjustment), the important NPCs as well as the PCs were all gestalt, it used Wounds and Vitality, and effects which improve a weapon's threat range stacked like in 3.0. One icon was a Durgazon (MM2) Psychic Warrior// Psychic Weapon Master/ Disciple of Dispater, level 20 but ECL 23 with is +3 LA, and he used a Falchion that had a 1-20 threat range, in a game with wounds and vitality. He was actually an extremely well rounded and interesting character, I was disappointed that the PCs never even met him. I think that's a fairly good illustration of what I think iconic NPCs should be, mechanically powerful enough that nobody would want to cross them, rather than the protagonist of a god-mode-sue novel that doesn't translate when placed in an RPG.

hamishspence
2009-07-02, 12:23 PM
In one Dragon Magazie should be Iggwilv stats, too. Far more powerfut than mordenkainen, Level 30 or so. If you wonder who's she, take a look in FCI. She was previously known as Natasha (Tasha).



Dungeon 149 (August 2007) Enemies of My Enemy

Rather powerful- and with lots of inherent bonuses (the ones you get with wish)

She's no Tippy mage, but with multiple artifacts, epic casting, belt of battle, and whatnot, she's still formidable.

Note that she uses the Complete Arcane version of Automatic Quicken spell. Which was vastly nerfed compared to the Epic Handbook version.

Zeful
2009-07-02, 12:32 PM
I think Celerity, or specifically saving your Celerity for when the opponent uses Celerity, is closer to a cold war version of combat.

Apparently there's some kind of "gentlemens agreement" in the game, nobody uses Disjunction or rust monsters for some weird reason.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-07-02, 12:41 PM
Apparently there's some kind of "gentlemens agreement" in the game, nobody uses Disjunction or rust monsters for some weird reason.Because loot=power. It's better to die 3 times than to get MDJ'd once. At least Raise Dead only costs you a level.

Beyond that, the spell is annoying when cast. You have to stop play, track down the source of every item the character is wearing(so you know what it's save is), roll 20-50 saves, figure out what happens with extradimensional spaces, and which save boosts apply if you decide to use an item's saves, and repeat for every character. Most people prefer to actually do something more than a single spell in their gaming sessions.

Keld Denar
2009-07-02, 12:58 PM
Apparently there's some kind of "gentlemens agreement" in the game, nobody uses Disjunction or rust monsters for some weird reason.

Gentleman's Agreement comes into play for a lot of spells. I had a PC once who walked into a room, popped his Bead of Karma, and 1shot a whole room full of demons with a single Holy Word. The DM then 1shot us all with a high CL Blasphemy. The Deus Ex Machina went off and play was reset to immediately prior to the Holy Word, and all 4 of those spells were permanently removed from the game. They aren't even mentioned because they are so horribly balanced. Same with Mordy's.

Basically, any spell that is so unbalanced that a player wouldn't ever want to be used on them, so they vow not to use it themselves. The spell is stricken from the game rules, as if it never existed. The fallout of the spells useage would be so destructive to the playability of the game that they are considered to be non-existant.

Myrmex
2009-07-02, 01:12 PM
....taking Combat Casting? Really? That's not unoptimized, that's saying 'I want an evil party to kill me and take my stuff'.

Or "I had to play through low levels, once."

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-07-02, 01:20 PM
Or "I had to play through low levels, once."Skill Focus: Concentration is strictly better. And we all know how OP Skill Focus is. It's a waste of a feat.

Myrmex
2009-07-02, 01:28 PM
Skill Focus: Concentration is strictly better. It's a waste of a feat.

In 3.0 skill focus gives you +2, not +3. Combat Casting is awesome at low levels, since most the time your concentration checks will be vs. threatening creatures, not horses running swiftly.

Gorbash
2009-07-02, 01:42 PM
Combat Casting is dumb since it's easily replaced by, you know, taking a 5 ft step. Skill Focus (Concentration), while still borderline useless, at least lets you add +3 for every concentration check (meaning taking damage while casting in an ongoing round etc).

Keld Denar
2009-07-02, 01:44 PM
The difference is, Combat Casting is often a prereq to a lot of PrCs, SF: Concentration isn't. Thats about the only thing Combat Casting has over SF: Concentration though...

bosssmiley
2009-07-02, 02:53 PM
St. Cuthbert?:smallwink:

Nope, he's a Geordie saint who muscled his way in, grabbed a beer, put his feet up and refused to leave..

Zagyg (Greyhawk's mad god of magic) was Gary's self-insert/DM avatar; the original wizard who did it.

The Greyhawkian quasi-deities Kelenan the Prince of Swords, Heward, Keoghtom, and Murlynd were all PCs in Gary's campaign.

Ditto most of the iconic (spell-making) wizards: Bigby, Nystul, Mordy, and the rest of the original Circle of Eight.

The Invulnerable Coat of Arndt was inspired by a running joke about a damage-adverse player.
The Ring of Gaxx? Long story, but here's one theory (http://jrients.blogspot.com/2008/08/real-ring-of-gaxx.html)

GreatWyrmGold
2009-07-02, 05:08 PM
I think they have him in the Epic Level Handbook somewhere. Not sure though, don't own that one.

Yeah, he is. (Incidentaly, I don't own that one either, I just have the PDF.)

AstralFire
2009-07-02, 05:09 PM
We'd established that already, but thank you...

ZeroNumerous
2009-07-02, 05:16 PM
Or "I had to play through low levels, once."

Feat retraining. That argument doesn't hold up to the horrible rigors of wasting two weeks in game time. :smallamused:

AstralFire
2009-07-02, 05:18 PM
Retraining didn't exist then, so that particular aspect can't be held against the designers.

GreatWyrmGold
2009-07-02, 05:36 PM
We'd established that already, but thank you...

I hadn't read more than the first few posts...I do that sometimes.

ZeroNumerous
2009-07-02, 06:56 PM
Retraining didn't exist then, so that particular aspect can't be held against the designers.

Of course, but there's no reason he couldn't retrain now.

Zeta Kai
2009-07-02, 08:09 PM
Any Mordenkainen who couldn't take on Penance (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5512489) is no Mordenkainen to me. :smallamused:

waterpenguin43
2009-07-02, 10:08 PM
I'm personaly supprised that he hasn't taken feats to help conjuration.

Kaiyanwang
2009-07-03, 02:21 AM
Combat Casting is dumb since it's easily replaced by, you know, taking a 5 ft step. Skill Focus (Concentration), while still borderline useless, at least lets you add +3 for every concentration check (meaning taking damage while casting in an ongoing round etc).

This thing of the 5 foot step always bugged me. If you are in the threatened area of a big thing, the 5-foot does not help you so much (even if you generally pass concentration, a thing that should be changed).

MOre, if someone prepares an action, IIRC, can 5-foot step too, so the mage 5-feets, then the opponent triggers his action, 5-foot + strike.


Dungeon 149 (August 2007) Enemies of My Enemy

Rather powerful- and with lots of inherent bonuses (the ones you get with wish)

She's no Tippy mage, but with multiple artifacts, epic casting, belt of battle, and whatnot, she's still formidable.

Note that she uses the Complete Arcane version of Automatic Quicken spell. Which was vastly nerfed compared to the Epic Handbook version.

Yeah, dungeon. Thank you (even if you forgot to say she's sexy).


Apparently there's some kind of "gentlemens agreement" in the game, nobody uses Disjunction or rust monsters for some weird reason.

Well, it depends. My former group used it (and took it in his face too sometimes). I think that even if the spell is OP, it makes acceptable the idea of facin an elder dragon played ALMOST as it should be played*.


*I said this becasue, IMHO; a Great Wyrm played REALLY properly (mental stats, power, the experience of an elder creature) should wipe any party.

Keld Denar
2009-07-03, 11:58 AM
MOre, if someone prepares an action, IIRC, can 5-foot step too, so the mage 5-feets, then the opponent triggers his action, 5-foot + strike.


The issue for mages is really this. The threatener either has to have reach, or has to have started their turn adjacent to the mage (which makes little sense, what mage would just stand there? Teleport away, dumby!). You can only include a 5' step as part of a readied action if you haven't already moved that turn. So, if a non-reaching meleer moves up adjacent to the wizard and readies an action to whack him if he casts. The wizard knows he's free to 5' step and cast, since he knows that person can't possible have a 5' step as part of his readied action.

And even reach isn't an absolute, since with a high int, a wizard can afford a few ranks in Tumble. DC15 is really easy to make, and even without, its better to draw an AoO from movement and take damage than draw an AoO from casting, take damage, and lose the spell.

FatR
2009-07-03, 12:39 PM
Legendary Canonical NPCs, ones who are Epic Casters that the Devils fear, should be able to destroy any low-epic party. That one can't. I'm not talking necessarily Cindy here, but taking Combat Casting? Really? That's not unoptimized, that's saying 'I want an evil party to kill me and take my stuff'.
I fail to see how someone coud see that as a bad thing. The weak build actually is the only excuse of this statblock. The same goes for other overleveled Mary Sue NPCs. Besides, the very existence of most DnD settings in their present forms is predicated on casters not using more than a small part of their true potential. The fact that this allows PCs to kick their asses is a nice extra benefit.

Vorpal word
2009-07-03, 03:02 PM
Interesting fact, but both Elminster and Khelben Blackstaff from Faerun (3.0) are more powerful than Mordenkainen.
Elminster's Fighter1/Rogue2/Cleric3/Wizard20/Archmage5/Epic4...and a Chosen of Mystra. ECL 39 :smalleek:

Lycanthromancer
2009-07-03, 03:23 PM
Interesting fact, but both Elminster and Khelben Blackstaff from Faerun (3.0) are more powerful than Mordenkainen.
Elminster's Fighter1/Rogue2/Cleric3/Wizard20/Archmage5/Epic4...and a Chosen of Mystra. ECL 39 :smalleek:

Due to losing out on all those caster levels, his ECL should be considerably lower. I know it doesn't work for non-monstrous critters, but non-associated class levels really should apply to most casters (though exceptions, of course, do apply).

Also:

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g111/Lycanthromancer/motivator07015544a6f91afd5fe34d9ddc.jpg

Oslecamo
2009-07-03, 05:30 PM
Of course, but there's no reason he couldn't retrain now.

He's too busy developing new spells and gaining more exp. You know how much stuff an epic wizard can kill and craft in two weeks?

tarbrush
2009-07-03, 06:42 PM
You know how much stuff an epic wizard can kill and craft in two weeks?

Everything that ever was, everything that ever will be, hypotheticals and things that never were?

chiasaur11
2009-07-03, 06:46 PM
Everything that ever was, everything that ever will be, hypotheticals and things that never were?

And a matching set of washcloths.

Lycanthromancer
2009-07-03, 07:27 PM
All that and a bag of chips.

Dragonshard chips, that is.

tyckspoon
2009-07-03, 11:21 PM
Due to losing out on all those caster levels, his ECL should be considerably lower. I know it doesn't work for non-monstrous critters, but non-associated class levels really should apply to most casters (though exceptions, of course, do apply).


Epic is very different, tho; for an Epic Wizard, what really matters is his Spellcraft check (if Epic Spellcasting is in play) and the number of Epic Bonus Feats he has. Those six non-caster levels would sink a pre-Epic build, but for Elminster it just means he has one/two less instances of Improved Metamagic or Improved Spell Capacity. Still makes a significant change in his potential power, especially if he might have more Improved Metamagic, but it's nowhere near the difference of a wizard with level 9 spells compared to level 6/7; he's still an Epic Wizard playing with Epic Toys.

Myrmex
2009-07-04, 02:15 AM
Combat Casting is dumb since it's easily replaced by, you know, taking a 5 ft step.

Yeah, cause every opponent only has 5' of reach.
/eyeroll


Skill Focus (Concentration), while still borderline useless, at least lets you add +3 for every concentration check (meaning taking damage while casting in an ongoing round etc).

Again, pull out a 3.0 rule book and look up skill focus.


Feat retraining.

That's a softcore variant rule in the DMG2, which is a 3.5 book.


Of course, but there's no reason he couldn't retrain now.

And there's no reason he couldn't just have 10,000,000 HP....


And even reach isn't an absolute, since with a high int, a wizard can afford a few ranks in Tumble. DC15 is really easy to make, and even without, its better to draw an AoO from movement and take damage than draw an AoO from casting, take damage, and lose the spell.

Tumble on wizards, if you are playing the low levels is definitely worth it. Given the number of things with improved grab or some form of trip, it's not always simply damage coming from an AoO. Then there's stuff with poison or other nasties.

skywalker
2009-07-04, 02:16 AM
Robilar was a PC too...

Yora
2009-07-04, 02:54 AM
Those six non-caster levels would sink a pre-Epic build, but for Elminster it just means he has one/two less instances of Improved Metamagic or Improved Spell Capacity.
Also, these levels are a quite accurate representation of the characters history. It's like criticising Greenwood for roleplaying...