[3.5] Some Paladin questions

[Flickerdart]

I'm playing in a gestalt game with a rather unconventional Paladin: a Half-Fey Paladin (Fax's version) 4//Monk (Fax's version) 2, with the aim of making a mobile fighter that harries enemies with Fly-By attacks and runs on Charisma.

Question 1: Fax's Paladin requires me to take a special Mantle to Turn Undead, so I can't take Divine Might. But I want to. Is there a PrC that grants Turn Undead that can be entered fairly early and works for the character concept? Alternately, is there a class that grants bonus Divine feats or Divine Might specifically, so I can at least time taking it the same level as I get the TU mantle?

Question 2: In this game, Paladin casting is house-ruled to run on Charisma. Since I run off it, I figure that a few spells couldn't hurt. Are there any Paladin-friendly PrCs that progress casting similar to a Sublime Chord or Ur-Priest? It's a bit too late to start taking Sorcerer or something like that 4 levels in, and Fax's Bard (which has no alignment limitation) while awesome, is still a slowed progression.

[Keld Denar]

Sacred Exorcist and Knight of the Raven are 2 of the only PrCs I can think of that grant Turn Undead. Sacred Exorcist is pretty awesome for a Cha based gish, since its 3/4 BAB and full casting. Knight of the Raven is kinda iffy most of the time, considering how fluff laiden it is, and the fact that it appears in the back of an adventure module book.

Divine Crusader in Complete Warrior or Complete Divine (forgot which), grants accelerated 9th level casting, but your spell list is limited to 1 domain. You can, however, add extra domains via PrCing into Contemplative or Ordained Champion or similar. Very Paladiny in flavor.

[Flickerdart]

Considering I don't get Dispel Evil until 17th level, that doesn't really work out. Divine Crusader I can enter at 8th, which isn't too bad. Sadly, I already have most of the non-casting benefits it offers, but the spells are pretty neat on their own.

[Keld Denar]

You mentioned Sublime Chord, which could get Dismissal at 11th level, and then take SacEx at 12 along with Divine Might.

I dunno if you can dip a level in Bard somewhere and get in with that, otherwise I don't know how Fax's Paladin splices with the Harmonious Knight Sub Levels in the Champions of Virtue web enhancement, but theres another idea on how to qualify for Sublime Chord.

[Flickerdart]

Fax's Paladin doesn't get Detect Evil or Remove Disease without taking a specific Mantle, and if I did that I could just take the one that grants TU. So all that remains is finding a class that gives bonus feats, Divine or just any kind.

[Person_Man]

Fax's Paladin (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=Paladin)
Fax's Monk (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=Monk)

Both are excellently written. But I would dissuade you from multi-classing in this case. More specifically, the Fax's Paladin has spells and mantles that improve with level. Similarly, Fax's Monk benefits from being a single class build, as your Strike Saves and choices are based on your Monk level.

If you want to multi-class, I think its to your benefit to go regular Paladin 4/Monk 2 instead.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Fax's Paladin (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=Paladin)
Fax's Monk (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=Monk)

Both are excellently written. But I would dissuade you from multi-classing in this case. More specifically, the Fax's Paladin has spells and mantles that improve with level. Similarly, Fax's Monk benefits from being a single class build, as your Strike Saves and choices are based on your Monk level.

If you want to multi-class, I think its to your benefit to go regular Paladin 4/Monk 2 instead.Gestalt. The rules are in UA. He's F. Paladin 4//Half-fey LA 2/F. Monk 2

[T.G. Oskar]

One question: how do you handle the level 0 spells? Regular Paladins and Blackguards don't have 0-level spells around, and the few that are from the Cleric's 0-level list are subsumed into their 1st level list.

I wouldn't ditch the Paladin's spell list just yet. Granted, it's not shiny as Core, but with the mount of splats it gets some workout (even though it's still true that Cleric spellcasting is infinitely times better) I'd recommend using the list granted by the OneWinged4ngel version, if it's fine with your DM (more bang for your limited buck, I'd say). If not, you can make some work out of the expanded Paladin spell list.

1st - lesser restoration (any kind of healing to ability score damage is a plus), protection from evil (deflection bonus, resistance bonus to saves, protection from mind control and mind-affecting abilities of evil creatures, and the questionable yet reasonable protection against summoned creatures), divine favor (a spell that roughly scales with level), divine sacrifice (Spell Compendium, in case you need the extra oomph of damage), lionheart (Spell Compendium, you are no longer immune to fear; this allows you to bypass the mantle of Valor), silverbeard (Spell Compendium, grants you a decent sacred bonus to AC for a first level spell), blaze of light (Spell Compendium, it's a cone that dazzles enemies. Not a specatular attack, but anything that you can work for your party...)

2nd - bull's strength, eagle's splendor, owl's wisdom (unless a Cleric wishes to cast them for you; a wand is much better, if you can afford it), resist energy (any resistance against a monster is a definite plus), benediction (Complete Champion; luck bonuses are scarce, rerolling anything as a gift from a spell is even scarcer), conduit of life (Complete Champion; it's quite cost-effective if someone is healing you, or if you somehow heal someone, not as cost effective if you aren't heal or are dedicated to healing), divine protection (Spell Compendium, a morale bonus to AC and saves is pretty rare, and it affects allies too), fell the greatest foe (Spell Compendium, a gift for when fighting really huge opponents, and a bonus for Small-race rogues, since it's touch range), flame of faith (Spell Compendium; by the moment you get this spell, you'll probably have your first magical items, but a +1 flaming burst weapon from any nonmagical or masterwork weapon may save your life one day, evensomore if you're in an icy dungeon), mark of doom (Player's Handbook II, this spell is probably one of the few pseudo-controlling spells a Paladin has; it has no SR, no save, and activates each time the enemy deals an offensive attack, which means from a melee attack to a dominate spell to probably even a debuff), shield of warding (Spell Compendium, grants a sacred bonus to AC and Reflex, which is one of your loftiest saves)

3 - greater magic weapon (not as strong as the Cleric's one, probably, but still an effective spell nonetheless), magic circle against evil (the better brother of protection from evil), prayer (perhaps a bit too late, but a luck bonus is a luck bonus, and a luck bonus plus a penalty isn't so bad; plus, your cleric will appreciate if possible that you take a bit of the reins of buffing while at it), dispel magic (a bit shoddy by the level, but you'll never know when it may come in handy); diamondsteel (Spell Compendium, learn to appreciate having a really high armor bonus and half the bonus turned into damage reduction bypassed only by adamantine), earth hammer (Spell Compendium, turns your favorite weapon into bludgeoning, bypassing DR/adamantine and hardness, and equivalent to one size larger, plus as a swift action), embrace of endless day (Faiths of Eberron if you manage to play on Eberron, give someone else the duty of lay on hands), healing spirit (Player's Handbook II, probably already acquired by Cleric, it's like a flaming sphere but for limited healing; effective to stabilize the fallen), holy storm (Spell Compendium, another spell that has no SR, no saving throw, a 20 feet cylinder that deals 2d6 damage to evil creatures per round staying in area, and double damage for evil creatures; the perfect revenge for closed-area encounters, and it only requires a flask of holy water), insignia of warding (Races of the Dragon; it's a nifty benefit for when you're taking watch and you aren't on a magnificent mansion or at the space of a rope trick, plus divine bonuses to AC and Fort aren't so shoddy either), righteous fury (Spell Compendium, the not-so-shabby brother to divine power; no enhancement to BAB but better temporary HP and a sacred bonus to Strength)

4 - break enchantment (one of the better Paladin spells around), death ward (another reward for staying true to the Paladin path), dispel evil (you already know about that one, so no more explanation), neutralize poison (another reward, if you can call it a reward), restoration (yet another "reward", this time an improved form of restoration which only the Cleric, of course, can improve), blessing of the righteous (Player's Handbook II, for a spell that acts like a bless weapon but with added damage, except for the auto-crit, and acting for every character...well, think about it while on a crusade against the Hells or something at least), castigate (Spell Compendium,one of the few spells granted to a Paladin that actually deals damage, but most effective on the Abyss; just recall that your friends can be hurt too, but it's a 10-ft. radius burst so not that terrible), draconic might (Spell Compendium, a rare bonus that I recall doesn't get to Clerics; an enhancement bonus to Strength, Constitution, Charisma is a boon for Paladins; the immunities are like icing on the cake), favor of the martyr (Spell Compendium, the amount of immunities gained or granted is surprising, but the ability to fight well while under 0 HP until -10 HP can be a lifesaver), righteous aura (sacred bonus to Charisma, but the fact that your death throes are enhanced by that Charisma bonus plus any you might have on effect may cause the baddies to actually think not to kill you first, meaning you can wade forth and fight with more confidence), sacred haven (Spell Compendium, another sacred bonus to AC but this time for allies as well, plus the equivalent of uncanny dodge for all allies, plus you always know their status, plus you can use your lay on hands at any range, even if they're at the other side of the world), seed of life (Complete Champion, it's fast healing but if the character needs desperately HP, it can invoke the burst)

This is mostly a personal opinion on the effective Paladin spells from nearly all books (missing the Forgotten Realms books mostly), but as you can see, it's not like Paladins actually suffer badly from not having good spells. Mostly, it's that Clerics get them faster, and probably with more chances of use.

Now, if you're going for Evil, you can get the Nar Demonbinder from Unapproachable East, and get up to level 8 spells, though it hurts that you can only get up to 6th level spells with the FC version (Paladin levels at level 17th, and only then 2 measly spells? I'd say that's a really bad oversight from Fax's side...) If you had the regular Paladin progression, you'd get at least up to...7th level spells, and even then you get a decent progression nonetheless. Most of the above spells won't be working (mostly the holy-flavored ones and the ones with sacred bonuses unless they also provide profane bonuses), but there's also a list for blackguard spells that needs to be explored.

[tonberrian]

What mantles do you plan on taking? I tried doing this once, and I figured the best mantles for a Cha focus were Purity, Honor, Piety, Humility, Prudence (with Ascetic Mage), Luck, and Temperence, with any leftover being spent on whatever seemed necessary for the party.

[quick_comment]

The warrior of light prc in deities and demigods grants turn undead at level 1 and is fairly easy to get into.

[Flickerdart]

I've got Honor and Humility down, Ascetic Mage needs 4 levels of Sorcerer which I might take later and might not. I'm probably taking Purity at 7th, which means I will have to wait til 9th to make use of that Turn Undead with Divine Might.

The Soldier of Light PrC requires an alignment I can't be as a Paladin and a specific deity. Otherwise it would've been ideal.