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Eighth_Seraph
2009-07-01, 02:15 PM
The only roleplaying system I've ever played is D&D 3.5. However, I've become frustrated with the absolute power available to PCs in that system. I'm looking for a system where being stabbed in the chest with a knife is still a threat to the strongest man. I mean, Brandon Lee (a level 25 unarmed swordsage) was killed by a single gunshot.

So, is there a system out there that could reflect this?

Draz74
2009-07-01, 02:17 PM
I think LARP is the most realistic system I've heard of. :smallwink:

snoopy13a
2009-07-01, 02:22 PM
The only roleplaying system I've ever played is D&D 3.5. However, I've become frustrated with the absolute power available to PCs in that system. I'm looking for a system where being stabbed in the chest with a knife is still a threat to the strongest man. I mean, Brandon Lee (a level 25 unarmed swordsage) was killed by a single gunshot.

So, is there a system out there that could reflect this?

D6 games tend not have to leveling and instead focus on skill increases. The characters become better at fighting but usually do not increase their hitpoints. In these characters tend to start off well but advancement is not signficant.

On the other hand, I suppose you could play 3.5 D&D at level 1 and simply not level up at all.

Lord Loss
2009-07-01, 02:29 PM
Call of Cthulhu! All the way! It's a horror RPG where the monsters are few, evil cultists are many, eeriness reigns and death is aplenty!

JMobius
2009-07-01, 02:29 PM
You didn't really specify what genre you're looking for, but combat in Unknown Armies with any sort of deadly weapon tends to be extremely lethal for even tough types.

WalkingTarget
2009-07-01, 02:31 PM
Chaosium's Basic Role Playing (BRP) system is somewhat better about this than D&D (at least the Call of Cthulhu version is, I haven't used the generic version).

Skill-based percentile rolls for most actions and no levels.

For CoC at least, an average character will have something like 12 hp (18 is about the highest a "normal" person will have, it's the average of two 3d6 rolled stats) and there's no easy way to increase them. Weapons are always dangerous.

edit - ninja'd kinda

Artanis
2009-07-01, 02:38 PM
Heavy Gear also has a tendancy towards getting killed relatively easily. It isn't ultra-fatal, but the characters aren't exactly immortal either.

Doc Roc
2009-07-01, 02:44 PM
Oh my Lord, you might adore Savage Worlds, or you might hate it. I have a deep love for it, myself.

AstralFire
2009-07-01, 02:51 PM
Honestly, if you change the coup de grace rules slightly (I rule that it always drops at least 3 steps on the condition track, with additional step drops possible from damage), d20 systems running SW Saga's 'Condition Track' and 'Damage Threshold' rules suddenly become considerably more lethal for a PC that's dealing with an assured damage situation. Anything that doesn't actually make the damage threshold is little more than a graze. It's really a pretty elegant solution for d20, and way better than the clumsiness that is VP/WP. If you don't want to skew it too much in the way of magic, can also rule that it doesn't apply to damage from magical sources. Though that's one way to make evokers better... hm.

Of course, there's other systems that do nitty-gritty better, but I've found many people aren't looking for REALLY nitty-gritty so much as they're just looking for keeping their high level characters a little more grounded in terms of the abuse they can take.

XiaoTie
2009-07-01, 02:54 PM
Realistic?

FATAL


:thog:

Froogleyboy
2009-07-01, 02:58 PM
Well, a responsible DM wouldn't say that the attack hit them in a fatal spot unless it was a fatal attack

Swordguy
2009-07-01, 02:58 PM
Good gritty systems, in a variety of genres:

The Riddle of Steel (the MOST accurate swordfighting simulator. Period.)
Call of Cthulhu
Deadlands (it's like Call of Cthulhu in the Wild West - DO NOT use the d20 version)
Rolemaster/Middle-Earth RP
Warhammer Fantasty RP
Dark Heresy
Shadowrun (the earlier the edition, the more gritty. 3rd ed is the best balance between grittyness and playability)
GURPS (depending on how the game is bening run and the starting point totals - GURPS Supers isn't so gritty, for example)
Legend of the Five Rings

If, like many people's groups, your players simply refuse to agree on anything but D&D, you can always make the d20 system slightly grittier by using the wound point/vitality point system, and having loads of stuff (falling damage and critical hits, especially) to directly to wounds (which are, iirc, equal to your Con score). It's kind of a crappy compromise, but since a lot of groups will only agree on D&D for a game (1 guys likes sci-fi, 3 guys like low-power fantasy, 1 likes horror, 1 likes anime games...but everyone's 2nd choice is D&D) this is something you can actually use.

AstralFire
2009-07-01, 03:02 PM
I really, really recommend use of Damage Threshold and Condition Track over VP/WP.

Seriously, I haven't yet tried to adapt the former back to 3.5 yet - I've all but given up on that edition - but I have run games using VP/WP in D&D 3.5 and good god that just went terrible. That was the time I started learning to do mechanical thinkthroughs of rule changes rather than just assuming that because it was in a book it was a good idea. I really can't see Damage Threshold getting any worse results.

talus21
2009-07-01, 03:13 PM
I really, really recommend use of Damage Threshold and Condition Track over VP/WP.

Seriously, I haven't yet tried to adapt the former back to 3.5 yet - I've all but given up on that edition - but I have run games using VP/WP in D&D 3.5 and good god that just went terrible. That was the time I started learning to do mechanical thinkthroughs of rule changes rather than just assuming that because it was in a book it was a good idea. I really can't see Damage Threshold getting any worse results.

Is there any kind of link to somewhere that describes this?

Geddoe
2009-07-01, 03:16 PM
The only roleplaying system I've ever played is D&D 3.5. However, I've become frustrated with the absolute power available to PCs in that system. I'm looking for a system where being stabbed in the chest with a knife is still a threat to the strongest man. I mean, Brandon Lee (a level 25 unarmed swordsage) was killed by a single gunshot.

So, is there a system out there that could reflect this?

It is relatively realistic. Just remember that everybody above level 6 or seven are superheroes. I doubt Brandon Lee or his father were actually any higher than level 3.

Knaight
2009-07-01, 03:17 PM
GURPS with low points is the most obvious one, then Savage Worlds, then probably Fudge with the gritty wound track. One lucky blow slips past your defense and your dead.

Morty
2009-07-01, 03:19 PM
It is relatively realistic. Just remember that everybody above level 6 or seven are superheroes. I doubt Brandon Lee or his father were actually any higher than level 3.

I belive that the existence of "superheroes" is the very reason for which D&D is unrealistic.
More to the point, I'd note that because a system is gritty and deadly doesn't mean it's realistic - but OP seems to seek a deadly system, so it doesn't matter, I suppose.

Shpadoinkle
2009-07-01, 03:29 PM
Play GURPS.

Combat in GURPS is pretty simple. You make an attack roll, which is based on 2d6. The chance for most weapons to hit is based on your dex/agility stat. If you succeed, you're considered to have hit... unless the person you're hitting makes his defense check, which is basically the same thing- a 2d6 roll based on your dex/agility. If you have a shield, that's a seperate defense roll (meaning you get 2. I think a shield can only be used against one opponent per round, though, it's been a while.) If you succed your defense roll, you negate the attack. If it fails, you take the hit, and your armor subtracts from the damage done (so it's very, very hard for someone with a stick to hurt someone wearing full-plate. Not impossible, but extremely unlikely.)

Your health is tied directly to your constitution score. A single sword blow can easily be fatal, but you can sometimes survive the first one, two if you're lucky.

Trying to make D&D combat "realistic" is like trying to swim up a waterfall.

Animefunkmaster
2009-07-01, 03:33 PM
Have you tried e6?

Ravens_cry
2009-07-01, 03:33 PM
On the other hand, some people, when high on adrenalin and other less licit substances, have simply not felt the gun wound, and kept going long enough to kill the other guy. You may expect a guy to go down right away from a single gun shot, but depending on the location, it can be longer then you think. One way to make combat much grittier in D&D is to limit, or take away entirely, magical healing. It's one thing to be down to -9 and be up and at it by the next encounter. It's quite another to have to wait for weeks with bed rest and careful tending.

AstralFire
2009-07-01, 03:38 PM
Is there any kind of link to somewhere that describes this?

Damage Threshold = Fortitude Save+10 (or Fort Defense, in other words).

Taking over the Damage Threshold from one attack moves you down one step on the condition track. (Determining what a good 'damage threshold' is, is where I anticipate the most issue using this system in 3.5 - you'll likely have to use a formula more like level+fort save given how fast damage per attack increases in D&D, but you don't want to increase it too much either, otherwise only 2HF will ever be able to reach it).

First step gives a -1 penalty to AC, saves, attack rolls, skill checks, and ability checks.

Second step gives a -2 penalty.

Third gives a -5 penalty.

Fourth gives a -10 penalty.

Fifth renders you helpless.

Note that as you move down the condition track, your damage threshold also sinks. You die immediately if you take damage equal or greater than your DT while helpless.

You can go back up a step on the condition track by taking a three swift actions in 3 or fewer consecutive rounds. Swift actions can be used in place of move and standard actions.

Draz74
2009-07-01, 03:47 PM
I really, really recommend use of Damage Threshold and Condition Track over VP/WP.

Seriously, I haven't yet tried to adapt the former back to 3.5 yet -

Please try. And include me in the process.

I'm particularly intrigued by combining something like this with something like 4e's AC/Fort/Ref/Will defenses, giving a character 4 Damage Thresholds that different attacks can target.

AstralFire
2009-07-01, 04:20 PM
Having four damage thresholds doesn't make sense to me, when it's pretty intrinsically tied to the concept of Constitution and Fortitude.

What I like most about the idea of slipping this in here is that it takes some of the emphasis away from Power Attacking for massive damage and gives a little more punch to area damage spells. A TWFer getting several chances at knocking someone down the condition track in one round is cool.

Draz74
2009-07-01, 04:29 PM
Having four damage thresholds doesn't make sense to me, when it's pretty intrinsically tied to the concept of Constitution and Fortitude.

Well, ok. If that doesn't seem to make sense to you, ignore it ... and just let me know how you would adapt the HP/Threshold system to 3.5e. But preferably magical attacks should work similarly to nonmagical attacks ... and Fortitude shouldn't become the end-all of saves, far more important than the other two. Those are two of the concerns I've had about adopting a HP/Threshold system.

Swordguy
2009-07-01, 04:56 PM
Damage Threshold = Fortitude Bonus
...
You can go back up a step on the condition track by taking a three swift actions in 3 or fewer consecutive rounds. Swift actions can be used in place of move and standard actions.

Huh...interesting. Never played SAGA, so I had no idea about that. Definitely looks interesting.

I defend the WP/VP system from AEG's Spycraft/Stargate games, because they don't give the ability to deliberately build for high-crit/high damage builds like you can in D&D. Damage doesn't increase as you increase in level, because damage from firearms is generally fixed (and a 3d4+2 bullet straight to WP is quite lethal enough, compared to an uber-charger who crits and goes 200d6 straight to wounds, yeah?). So it works in those systems well, but I can see where it'd fall down in regular D&D.

I'd still leave d20 behind entirely when I want something approaching realism/grittyness, though. Go play a system that's built for what you want from the ground up, rather than a poor-to-moderate approximation of the genre using a generic system built to play something completely different.

SurlySeraph
2009-07-01, 04:58 PM
Twilight 2000/Twilight 2013. If you get shot in the arm, it MATTERS. Bleeding out is not awfully hard to do.

AstralFire
2009-07-01, 05:04 PM
Oh, I agree VP/WP works well in systems it was designed to. It was me seeing it in those systems that led to me assuming I could just plug it into D&D. It even works okay at low levels (which are somewhat passable at realistic damage anyway) and just spirals out of control at high levels.

I like the system because it lets you be slightly more verisimilitudinal in D&D without going down all the way to nitty-gritty.

lisiecki
2009-07-01, 05:14 PM
The only roleplaying system I've ever played is D&D 3.5. However, I've become frustrated with the absolute power available to PCs in that system. I'm looking for a system where being stabbed in the chest with a knife is still a threat to the strongest man. I mean, Brandon Lee (a level 25 unarmed swordsage) was killed by a single gunshot.
So, is there a system out there that could reflect this?


Well no they can't.
Hitpoints represent your ability to AVOID being damaged.

a 25 level sword stage being shot at close range could do it, as im fairly sure it would count as a Coup de grace

NWoD is pretty freaking lethal.
Mostly for Human V supernatural
but even prepared human V supernatural and Supernatural V supernatural can be pretty freaking messy.

AvatarZero
2009-07-01, 05:23 PM
I'd recommend Legend of the Five Rings if you like feudal Japan. It's a fantasy setting, so if you want realism in all things it's probably not the best system for you, but the combat can be satisfyingly brutal. Characters take large penalties for taking damage points that apply to attack and defense, so there's a real chance of a battle being decided by who lands the first hit.

Anything by White Wolf will use health levels instead of HP, and be more lethal. The exception is Exalted, but the characters in Exalted that have many times more survivability than ordinary folk aren't supposed to be realistic. They're supposed to be able to parry an incoming meteor with a rusty fork (actually in the game, available to starting characters).

Ebonsword
2009-07-01, 05:49 PM
Wow, I can't believe that nobody has mentioned RuneQuest yet!

Clicky! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Runequest)

It's one of the best (if not THE best) system for gritty, low-magic fantasy.

greenknight
2009-07-01, 06:28 PM
Ars Magica is a pretty good choice too, if you want to stay with a medieval fantasy type theme.

Roupe
2009-07-01, 07:48 PM
I am amazed no one has mentioned or remembers

Phoenix Command
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix_Command
As I remember it, it was a combat table add on, that would tell you in detail the trajectory of the individual arrows (or bullets) inside the body of the intended target.

In simpler description. Every wound was a roll on a critical hit table.

xyzzy
2009-07-01, 08:05 PM
Realistic?

FATAL


:thog:

Unrealistic emoticon. It's so bad, even Thog knows it's horrible. (Actually, all the... detailed... stats for women give him cooties, so that's also part of why.)

mikeejimbo
2009-07-01, 08:18 PM
GURPS is probably my favorite system, though I might be slightly biased since it was also my first system.

And it's known for being gritty when you want it to be.

Eighth_Seraph
2009-07-01, 08:54 PM
Cool, thanks for all the replies, everyone. From the little I've seen of your suggestions, I like RuneQuest the best, as well as the SAGA system for Fort/Ref defenses.

Let me try and be more specific as to what I'm looking for, though, to see if y'all can give me some better insight into the situation. I want a system in which a character can advance significantly in terms of combat ability; becoming more accurate and dangerous as well as more effective at avoiding attacks. However, a successful attack should be a serious threat regardless of the source. In general, people don't laugh off a knife to the chest, even if a twelve-year-old is holding it. At the same time, though, I'm not looking for my PCs to keep eight or nine backup characters, Call of Cthulhu style.

Also, I'd like a system that can be played completely without magic (though I plan to homebrew my own brand of magic to insert in). Preferably one that can be played from the bronze age all the way to modern firearms (futuristic weapons and lightsabers are good for bonus points).

And for good measure, I like games with highly customizable fighting styles. Legend of the Five Rings sounds good for this.

That's as specific as I think I can get. Is there anything better than RuneQuest that fits this description?

mikeejimbo
2009-07-02, 07:44 AM
Man, from that description it REALLY sounds like GURPS would be good.


I want a system in which a character can advance significantly in terms of combat ability; becoming more accurate and dangerous as well as more effective at avoiding attacks.

Check. Getting up to high skills in weapons allows you to pull off seriously dangerous maneuvers, while improving your dodge and parry skills can likewise let you avoid attacks quite often. And this doesn't necessarily lead to stagnation where you avoid all the attacks since those aforementioned maneuvers can make it much harder to avoid.


However, a successful attack should be a serious threat regardless of the source. In general, people don't laugh off a knife to the chest, even if a twelve-year-old is holding it.

Check. PCs tend to have HT scores of 10 to 14, and a knife does at least d6 piercing damage (piercing doubles any damage that gets past DR, if I remember correctly.)


At the same time, though, I'm not looking for my PCs to keep eight or nine backup characters, Call of Cthulhu style.

Check, though it depends somewhat on how rough you are on them.


Also, I'd like a system that can be played completely without magic (though I plan to homebrew my own brand of magic to insert in).

Check, and there are resources in GURPS for making and customizing your own brand of magic, both in GURPS Magic and GURPS Thaumatology.


Preferably one that can be played from the bronze age all the way to modern firearms (futuristic weapons and lightsabers are good for bonus points).

Check, including futuristic weapons and lightsabers. GURPS Low Tech, High Tech and Ultra Tech span all the way from about the bronze age to whatever you can imagine in the future.


And for good measure, I like games with highly customizable fighting styles.

GURPS Martial Arts is filled with this.

Sebastian
2009-07-02, 08:13 AM
Gurps fit your requisites to a T

You can use it for every historical (and not historical) period, present, past and future, you can create custom magic systems (you could need some sourcebook for that), you can make it as deadly or heroic as you want. and its books are almost always top quality with a lot of not-rules material useful for any system. and you can check the free version Gurps-lite to see if you like it.

Hero system could be good, too.

Shpadoinkle
2009-07-02, 08:48 AM
(Post that describes GURPS almost perfectly)

Play GURPS. The basic rules lack specific fighting styles but it fits everything else you mentioned, and like mikeejimbo said there are supplements that even have that.

Xplo
2009-07-02, 08:53 AM
mikeejimbo got it right - the system you've described sounds just like GURPS.

lesser_minion
2009-07-02, 08:57 AM
G.O.R.E. is a free version of the Basic Roleplaying system, adapted to essentially cover much of the SRD material. There is no need to play Call of Cthulhu as particularly deadly, and it is not likely to be much worse than RuneQuest (which uses similar, but more detailed mechanics according to Wikipedia).

True20 gives characters defence bonuses and has an injury system where characters only become more able to avoid hits with level - characters can die pretty rapidly. You would have to homebrew fighting styles and the like, but it is very close to what you describe. It also has the added bonus of limited bookeeping, and is not too difficult to convert from d20.

Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay also has a very dangerous combat system. It is not as deadly as some people will have you believe, even though it is possible to be decapitated by a bunny rabbit in extreme cases (it's about a 1 in 20,000 chance, so it's not likely to see play, however insane).

Unisystem is also quite good for this sort of thing, although it is currently only available with specific settings as opposed to having a main book with generic rules.

Tyrmatt
2009-07-02, 09:16 AM
Loving GURPs at the moment after I discovered how my ready made mooks were quite obviously ripped apart by heavy machine gun fire and grenades, just as they should be in life.

I got back at the PCs by scaring them with a sniper who JUST missed a direct headshot and instead blew a big chunk out of someones arm.

Kemper Boyd
2009-07-02, 09:55 AM
Nemesis/ORE is a fairly realistic system and it's free. It's also a fairly light system. Designed by Greg Stolze. Godlike, Wild Talents and Reign use it.

http://www.nemesis-system.com/

Tingel
2009-07-02, 10:09 AM
So, is there a system out there that could reflect this?

HackMaster. The basic rulebook costs only 19 dollars (for about 200 pages), and the game is excellent. Check out www.kenzerco.com for details.

SilverSheriff
2009-07-02, 10:32 AM
Realistic?

FATAL


:thog:

*uses fire extinguisher on*

He's not ready.

Knaight
2009-07-02, 10:35 AM
At the very least one should look at the review. Its very entertaining.

fusilier
2009-07-02, 12:24 PM
Yup, GURPS.

I've actually found that it's hard to kill characters in GURPS. You have to hit them in the vitals/brain, or drop artillery shells next to them. However, it's pretty easy to knock them out, or send them to the hospital for a long recovery.

GreyMantle
2009-07-02, 12:36 PM
I can't say much about GURPS, but Shadowrun 4th is a (with one exception) really well-designed system that does "gritty" pretty well. Unless you're a troll totally optimized for defense (which isn't an especially good choice), one or two shots will kill most characters. The Dodge skill is very useful, but even better than armor or dodging is cover/smart playing. It's a game where having a shotgun fight even with a bunch of mooks is going to be lethal, and when you consider that most targets are heavily fortified corporate buildings...it's really better to fight only when necessary.

It takes place in a(n incredibly flavorful) cyperpunk dystopia, but it could be adapted to fantasy or whatever with a minimal amount of work.

mikeejimbo
2009-07-02, 03:53 PM
Yup, GURPS.

I've actually found that it's hard to kill characters in GURPS. You have to hit them in the vitals/brain, or drop artillery shells next to them. However, it's pretty easy to knock them out, or send them to the hospital for a long recovery.

True, though my thoughts are that a system where the players are hard to kill permanently but easy to render unconscious is a great balance between "A knife to the chest is a serious threat" and "I don't want my players to have to have 8 or 9 back up characters".

Draxonicar
2009-07-02, 04:13 PM
The only roleplaying system I've ever played is D&D 3.5. However, I've become frustrated with the absolute power available to PCs in that system. I'm looking for a system where being stabbed in the chest with a knife is still a threat to the strongest man. I mean, Brandon Lee (a level 25 unarmed swordsage) was killed by a single gunshot.

So, is there a system out there that could reflect this?

Dark Hersey or Warhammer fantasy RP. Both set in the warhammer universe, where magic is EXTREMELY dangerous, chaos gods (not the way you think) and is grey as concrete. In Dark heresy, the savior of humanity needs thousands of helpless and unlucky psykers killed to keep him alive, where all xenos are put the sword regardless of intention....and (most importantly)...combat, as a rule, SHOULD BE AVOIDED in BOTH games.


Chaos: ( a daemon prince):http://pro-painted-miniatures.com/files/images/Daemon-Prince1_0.jpg

Space marine Chaplain: (scarily enough, hes a good guy)http://d21-gaming.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/40k-20chaplain.gif

Mutants: (deformed beings twisted by chaos):http://i498.photobucket.com/albums/rr341/Alariccantonain/Cantonain-BigMutos01.jpg
Combat is usually resolved in 1-3 rounds, generally 2 in my experience, there is considerable danger in both and the 2 are quite alike (Connected by the warp) and both are scary, grim, and dangerous.

I'd check it out if you want this

Xplo
2009-07-02, 06:11 PM
Yup, GURPS.

I've actually found that it's hard to kill characters in GURPS. You have to hit them in the vitals/brain, or drop artillery shells next to them. However, it's pretty easy to knock them out, or send them to the hospital for a long recovery.

They're only "hard to kill" because they usually pass out from their injuries before they're in danger of dying, and enemies don't usually attack people who have been knocked unconscious already. Which, if you're trying to keep characters alive, is a good thing.

Actually, I find GURPS characters pretty easy to kill, if that's what you want to do. Anything that keeps attacking someone who's down and out can kill a PC pretty quickly. So can anything that hits really hard. Get a ST 25+ thing swinging a tree limb and you can crumple knights like soda cans. In a modern or futuristic game, military weapons can usually punch through ordinary infantry-level armor, and large civilian weapons are plenty good enough to do in someone who's lightly armored (or not at all, like 99% of civilians in most places). And if you still don't think the combat's deadly enough, there's always bleeding. IIRC, the bleeding rules in Martial Arts are pretty nasty.

Eighth_Seraph
2009-07-02, 08:34 PM
Looks like we have a winnneeeer!

I'll go check out GURPS, starting with that free "lite" version. Thanks, everybody!