Everyone loves Ninjas! (New base class)

[kentma57]

Working on a new base class that uses dex as a primary casting class, probably a bit high powered but it's still in the works. The fluff is still needs to be fleshed out a bit more(and typed up) but I am sure you can figure it out

HD: d6
skills: 6+int(x4 at 1st)

Hand-Sign User
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th

1st|
+0|
+0|
+2|
+2|Ninja Hand Signs, Skill Focus (Slight of Hand), sneak attack +1d6|2|-|-|-|-|-|-

2nd|
+1|
+0|
+3|
+3||3|-|-|-|-|-|-

3rd|
+2|
+1|
+3|
+3|bonus feat|4|2|-|-|-|-|-

4th|
+3|
+1|
+4|
+4||5|3|-|-|-|-|-

5th|
+3|
+1|
+4|
+4|undetecable alignment, +2d6 sneak attack|6|3|2|-|-|-|-

6th|
+4|
+2|
+5|
+5||6|4|3|-|-|-|-

7th|
+5|
+2|
+5|
+5|bonus feat|6|5|4|2|-|-|-

8th|
+6/+1|
+2|
+6|
+6||6|6|5|3|-|-|-

9th|
+6/+1|
+3|
+6|
+6|+3d6 sneak attack|6|6|6|4|-|-|-

10th|
+7/+2|
+3|
+7|
+7|hide in plain sight|6|6|6|5|2|-|-

11th|
+8/+3|
+3|
+7|
+7|bonus feat|6|6|6|6|3|-|-

12th|
+9/+4|
+4|
+8|
+8||6|6|6|6|4|-|-

13th|
+9/+4|
+4|
+8|
+8|+4d6 sneak attack|6|6|6|6|5|2|-

14th|
+10/+5|
+4|
+9|
+9||6|6|6|6|6|3|-

15th|
+11/+6/+1|
+5|
+9|
+9|nondetection, bonus feat|6|6|6|6|6|4|-

16th|
+12/+7/+2|
+5|
+10|
+10||6|6|6|6|6|5|2

17th|
+12/+7/+2|
+5|
+10|
+10|+5d6 sneak attack|6|6|6|6|6|6|3

18th|
+13/+8/+3|
+6|
+11|
+11||6|6|6|6|6|6|4

19th|
+14/+9/+4|
+6|
+11|
+11|bonus feat|6|6|6|6|6|6|5

20th|
+15/+10/+5|
+6|
+12|
+12|Read the Arcane Path|6|6|6|6|6|6|6[/table]

Ninja Hand Signs
Ninja techniques (spells) can duplicate any spell of the Enchantment/ Conjuration/ Divination/ Illusion schools schools and use Dexterity as the primary spell casting stat when determining things such as spell DC’s, bonus spells, damage and so on. Ninja’s have committed all their techniques to memory and are considered spontaneous casters (see sorcerer). At every level a ninja may add 3 techniques, of any level up to their highest level technique slot, to their spell list.
To use a technique a ninja must make a successful slight if hand check. The DC is equal to 10 + (technique level * 3), a failed check results in the expenditure of the technique without any effect. All ninja spells are considered to be silent, but they can not be stilled. Each day a ninja needs 1 hour of mental and physical exercise, failure to complete this exercise results in a -20 penalty to all slight of hand checks when attempting to use a ninja technique.

Sneak Attack
The ninja gets sneak attack every 4 levels as the rogue class feature.

Undetectable Alignment
A ninja of 5th level or higher is continualy under the effects of a undetectable alignment spell, with a CL equal to their ninja level.

Hide in Plain Sight
A ninja of 10th level or higher may hide in plain sight as the shadow dancer(DMG) class ability.

Nondetection
A ninja of 15th level or higher is continualy under the effects of a nondetection spell, with a CL equal to their ninja level.

Read the Arcane Path

Work in progress.
At 20th level a ninja gains the ability to duplicate the flow of magic produced by another spell caster.
As another caster casts a spell the ninja may, as an instantaneous action, make a DC 10+(the caster’s CL * 2) slight of hand check to cast the same spell(including any special effects such as meta-magic) even if you would normally not be able to cast the spell. Whether or not the slight of hand check was successful a ninja must expend a technique slot of the same level as the spell duplicated. This ability can only be used to duplicate spells with somatic components, cast within line of sight of the ninja, of a level up to the highest level technique the ninja can use.

Meta-Hand feats
As per the normal meta-magic feats meta-hand feats affect a ninja’s techniques (spells), but unlike normal meta-magic a ninja does not need to use a higher level slot, instead a ninja must pass a higher slight of hand check to use the technique. To use a meta-hand technique you take the base DC and add the increase of the spell level increase to both the technique level and the modifier.
Ex: 6th level technique DC 10+(6*3)
Empowered 6th level technique DC 10+(7*4)

Full BAB is up for consideration.
What do you think?

[Vaynor]

Sorcerer with a gimped spell list, lower spells per day, huge restriction as to what spells they can cast, and what do they get for it?

3/4 BAB and 2 good saves? No thanks.

Wait a second, they also have to make a check whenever they cast the spell? Just in order for it to work? Double no thanks.

[deshrimp]

Ninja Hand Signs
Ninja techniques (spells) can duplicate any spell of the Enchantment/ Conjuration/ Divination/ Illusion schools schools and use Dexterity as the primary spell casting stat when determining things such as spell DC’s, bonus spells, damage and so on. Ninja’s have committed all their techniques to memory and are considered spontaneous casters (see sorcerer). At every level a ninja may add 3 techniques, of any level up to their highest level technique slot, to their spell list.
To use a technique a ninja must make a successful slight if hand check. The DC is equal to 10 + (technique level * 3), a failed check results in the expenditure of the technique without any effect. All ninja spells are considered to be silent, but they can not be stilled. Each day a ninja needs 1 hour of mental and physical exercise, failure to complete this exercise results in a -20 penalty to all slight of hand checks when attempting to use a ninja technique.I like this concept. It fits with my idea of ninja arts. I would however remove the –20 penalty and just make it so the ninja cannot use ninja arts until it is completed. Just like spells. Also, I would remove the need for a sleight of hand check. no other spellcaster has to make a check to cast a spell.


Read the Arcane Path
At 20th level a ninja gains the ability to duplicate the flow of magic produced by another spell caster.
As another caster casts a spell the ninja may, as an instantaneous action, make a DC 10+(the caster’s CL * 2) slight of hand check to cast the same spell(including any special effects such as meta-magic) even if you would normally not be able to cast the spell. Whether or not the slight of hand check was successful a ninja must expend a technique slot of the same level as the spell duplicated. This ability can only be used to duplicate spells with somatic components, cast within line of sight of the ninja, of a level up to the highest level technique the ninja can use.No. Simply put. This doesn’t fit with the concept of a ninja. No other spellcaster regardless of class can mimic another caster without special abilities. Now what I would consider is a feat that allows counterspelling with ninja arts. Or make some kind of distinction on how counterspelling would be accomplished.


Meta-Hand feats
As per the normal meta-magic feats meta-hand feats affect a ninja’s techniques (spells), but unlike normal meta-magic a ninja does not need to use a higher level slot, instead a ninja must pass a higher slight of hand check to use the technique. To use a meta-hand technique you take the base DC and add the increase of the spell level increase to both the technique level and the modifier.
Ex: 6th level technique DC 10+(6*3)
Empowered 6th level technique DC 10+(7*4) With this concept, I would just give them either Bonus Metamagic Feats and note that they are usable with this spellcasting.

On a different note, I would give the ninja use of special ninja weapons and light armor, no shields. Class skill list would include (but not limited to) bluff, gather info, hide, heal, intimidate, Move Silent, Sleight of Hand.

As for your bonus feats, the fact that this ninja gets 10 bonus feats (including metamagic) puts him on par with a fighter in feats gained. I would remove either the bonus metamagic or bonus feats.

This could lead way to several prestige classes as well, aka specialist ninjas :smallcool:

[Zeful]

For the hand seals, if you want to do them, I would take and write them out, in their entirety, and give them individual powers that can be combined. Then give them a maximum number of hand seals used for any technique which increases as they level up. And give them unlimited use.

[deshrimp]

Another option I just started to throw around in my head is Invocation style casting. Instead of arcane or divine casting, have the 'spells' work like a warlock's Invocations. Sure that would mean you have to make ninja art spells, but it shouldnt be too hard to just reword some spells/invocations.

[Surrealistik]

Needs sneak attack/sudden strike (possibly upgrading to Death Attack at later levels), hide in plain sight and an anti-divination/non-detection ability.

[kentma57]

So to start: on the note of skills I have a good idea what the list should include I just have to update the build I wanted to get the main parts out first.
As for feats you are right to many, I had the same thought and have been considering dropping all the meta-hand feats and instead giving 5 bonus feats over and 5d6 sneak attack.
As for the skill checks when casting I like them, they made an intresting apperence with truenamers and failed, so I wanted to try them again.
For other class abilities I am thinking undetecable alignment a 5th, hide in plain sight at 10th, and nondetection(CL equal to ninja level) at 15th.
I like the idea of a character who just lets the magic flow and physicaly manipulates the magic through hand signs. Also the use of meta-hand feats that increase the DC not the spell level expended helps keep a class with less spells playable, without making it to powerful. This is the core of the spell duplication, the ninja matches the flow of magic created by an opponent in real time. This could easily be redesigned to be a counter spell effect, or ditched entirely I just thought it made a cool 20th level ability.

For things like death attacks, higher level spells, or extra schools I think they are best save for prestige classes.(though I think they could be fun to right)

[Vaynor]

So to start: on the note of skills I have a good idea what the list should include I just have to update the build I wanted to get the main parts out first.
As for feats you are right to many, I had the same thought and have been considering dropping all the meta-hand feats and instead giving 5 bonus feats over and 5d6 sneak attack.
As for the skill checks when casting I like them, they made an intresting apperence with truenamers and failed, so I wanted to try them again.
For other class abilities I am thinking undetecable alignment a 5th, hide in plain sight at 10th, and nondetection(CL equal to ninja level) at 15th.
I like the idea of a character who just lets the magic flow and physicaly manipulates the magic through hand signs. Also the use of meta-hand feats that increase the DC not the spell level expended helps keep a class with less spells playable, without making it to powerful. This is the core of the spell duplication, the ninja matches the flow of magic created by an opponent in real time. This could easily be redesigned to be a counter spell effect, or ditched entirely I just thought it made a cool 20th level ability.

For things like death attacks, higher level spells, or extra schools I think they are best save for prestige classes.(though I think they could be fun to right)

I think you misunderstand. The skill check thing is fine, it's just that with only 4 spells a day of each level, missing a skill check is going to be a pretty crappy thing. You liken it to truenaming - that only worked (debatable) because they had no limit on utterances per day. Either remove the limit or remove the skill check.

[kentma57]

I think you misunderstand. The skill check thing is fine, it's just that with only 4 spells a day of each level, missing a skill check is going to be a pretty crappy thing. You liken it to truenaming - that only worked (debatable) because they had no limit on utterances per day. Either remove the limit or remove the skill check.

Fair point, the original goal was to help balance out a stealth class with reasonable combat, but going over it even with the feats it had it was still far weaker than a basic cleric.
I think I will give them more spells per day and full base attack, this should mean they are only slightly below normal casters but make up for it with other abilities such as sneak attack.

Someone mentioned weapon/armour proficiencies, light armour, probably an exotic weapon or two and martial weapon prof.

ps: nice to see you outside recruitment Vaynor.

[DracoDei]

Most of this is just rambling to get some stuff people haven't been mentioning said explicitly, so that it can be better considered by everyone.

The SAD here is even better than for a specialist wizard, but they do have a spell list that is even further limited, and a number of spells known that is between the two. Spells per day starts out like as specialist wizard, but then goes to sorcerer maximum.

And HOW could you forget to give them level 0 spells per day?

How many 0th and 1st level spells do they start out with?

I guess the casting check helps balance out the special abilities, good reflex saves, and slightly higher HD.

Silent casting synergizes well.

I assume that they have proficiency with light armor only, if that and arcane spell failure?

I would actually consider NOT giving them UMD to keep them from getting cheesy with the wands and scrolls to fill in their gaps a balancing factor.

[kentma57]

Most of this is just rambling to get some stuff people haven't been mentioning said explicitly, so that it can be better considered by everyone.

The SAD here is even better than for a specialist wizard, but they do have a spell list that is even further limited, and a number of spells known that is between the two. Spells per day starts out like as specialist wizard, but then goes to sorcerer maximum.

And HOW could you forget to give them level 0 spells per day?

How many 0th and 1st level spells do they start out with?

I guess the casting check helps balance out the special abilities, good reflex saves, and slightly higher HD.

Silent casting synergizes well.

I assume that they have proficiency with light armor only, if that and arcane spell failure?

I would actually consider NOT giving them UMD to keep them from getting cheesy with the wands and scrolls to fill in their gaps a balancing factor.

0 level spells, fair question the casting was originaly taken from artificer(I though it would make a good model for a partial casters spells).
Now as for the comments about it being alot like a specialist wizard in some aspects your right, this is actualy meant to be the 1st of 2 or 3 classes the next will use Con(I actual wrote some nice fluff) and the last will use Str(if I can write any fluff at all). The way I figured it was that each ability score would only realy make sense with some schools/spells, now I could write the spell list from the ground up but I thought I would try this first.

As for light armour, yes they are profficient and yes the suffer spell failure.
UMD they don't get it, scrolls/wands are for people who need to keep casting when they run out of spells per day, though a scroll using prestige class would be unsual.

[DracoDei]

And SOMEHOW I managed to totally miss the fact that they only get spells up to 7th level... although the get more spell levels per class level at lower levels than the higher ones. So that might mean it is too weak at high levels and/or too strong at say...5th to 10th.

I would move the first die of Sneak attack to second level to avoid making it too dip-worthy.

[Surrealistik]

Unless the Ninja's Hide in Plain Sight is only meant to work outdoors, I'd advise against saying that it works as per the Ranger's.

[kentma57]

And SOMEHOW I managed to totally miss the fact that they only get spells up to 7th level... although the get more spell levels per class level at lower levels than the higher ones. So that might mean it is too weak at high levels and/or too strong at say...5th to 10th.

I would move the first die of Sneak attack to second level to avoid making it too dip-worthy.


Unless the Ninja's Hide in Plain Sight is only meant to work outdoors, I'd advise against saying that it works as per the Ranger's.

The sneak attack and hide in plain sight will be moved on the next update.
I have also been considering giving them full casting, but it just seems to good especialy if you manage to break the skill check system with a higher than normal bonus. I will start by giving them 8th level spells and re-balancing the rate at wich they gain spells to let them gain power at a more even rate.

ps: other than moving the sneak attack slightly does the 5d6 sneak attack and 5 bonus feats seem ok to everyone?