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Eon
2009-07-01, 03:55 PM
Well my friend started DMing a 4.0 game and one day we had it planned but only two of us showed up out of the 6. So we planned for another day and on that day 4/6 showed up and he was annoyed at the one because that ones mom was shopping and couldn't drive him because she wasn't home yet. When he arrived and one said he couldn't via text message, he was mad at that one for it. We started anyway and he had this wierd story and we were given weapons because some level 30s got killed and their essences were in us? We went into this lair with kobolds from the Dungeon Masters guide. He also lost his players handbook and seeing as I got the books the day before he said he was going to use mine. When the other players weren't doing anything right that moment they started talking constantly and it was rather annoying but he didn't do anything about it. I am an elf archer ranger. I rolled an 18 and put it in dex and got a +2 racial mod which made it a 20. Because he made every other character and they didn't have anything higher than 18 and apparently 2 14s aren't average stats and houseruled my racial bonuses away. Later he threatened that unless I got closer to the two drakes I wouldn't get xp from them.


What should I do? I want to quit but our moms are friends and we are friends too. My brother has suggested I do but I am not trying to ruin our friendship. He knows I am planning on starting a campaign (which I completed the first dungeon for it and am now waiting for some people to come back here so I can ask them) and he wants to join along with another kid from the group?

only1doug
2009-07-01, 04:09 PM
My initial advice would be to expand your title to cover the subject you want advice on, so people know what to expect.

It seems that you have new GM syndrome, New GMs need to learn how to run a good game. private feedback is a good way to help the GM understand how you feel about the game he is running.

4 players is enough to play.

losing your racial bonus because the GM didn't like it seems unreasonable, unless he also removed your racial penalty. Ask him privately whether he'd prefer you to choose a different race or if he'll remove the racial penalty (or change his mind and allow your racial bonus) If he doesn't allow those choices explain that you don't wish to play in a campeign where you are penalised unfairly, then wish him the best of luck with his game.

Eon
2009-07-01, 04:20 PM
I also forgot to add that he is planning to write a book on the campaign and has said that he is going to try to not let us die. I want the risk factor and that's another reason I asked here...

Edit: I also can't give any real feedback as I haven't dmed before

kjones
2009-07-01, 04:33 PM
I also can't give any real feedback as I haven't dmed before

False - you can tell him how you feel about playing in his game, and whether or not you are having fun. (It sounds like you are not, but I can't tell.)

See if anyone else in the group is interested in DMing.

SoD
2009-07-01, 04:41 PM
Edit: I also can't give any real feedback as I haven't dmed before

Of course you can! It's not other DM's who decide what is a good way to DM and what is a bad way to DM, it's the players who decide what is and isn't 'good DMing'. The fact you've never DMed before doesn't take away from the fact that you can give feedback. Just make sure he doesn't take it as you insulting his style and that, but rather providing feedback to make it more enjoyable for you.

Eon
2009-07-01, 04:41 PM
Me in the one dming are the only ones who have played dnd before. And you were right! I am not having fun...

Myatar_Panwar
2009-07-01, 05:13 PM
I also forgot to add that he is planning to write a book on the campaign and has said that he is going to try to not let us die. I want the risk factor and that's another reason I asked here...

Ugh, tell him to stop. Seriously.

Good story or not, using you guys to make a book is dumb.

I believe somewhere in the DM's guide it even talks directly about this. Something along the lines of "This is not your opportunity to get into the world of professional fiction writing, but an opportunity to help your players tell their own characters story."

When I first started DM'ing, I had dreams about doing stuff like he wants to do, but really its not what D&D is for.

RTGoodman
2009-07-01, 05:18 PM
Well my friend started DMing a 4.0 game and one day we had it planned but only two of us showed up out of the 6. So we planned for another day and on that day 4/6 showed up and he was annoyed at the one because that ones mom was shopping and couldn't drive him because she wasn't home yet. When he arrived and one said he couldn't via text message, he was mad at that one for it. We started anyway and he had this wierd story and we were given weapons because some level 30s got killed and their essences were in us? We went into this lair with kobolds from the Dungeon Masters guide. He also lost his players handbook and seeing as I got the books the day before he said he was going to use mine. When the other players weren't doing anything right that moment they started talking constantly and it was rather annoying but he didn't do anything about it.

Those are all fairly normal problems with gaming groups (absences, lack of time to play, borrowing books, constant chatter), and they'll only be solved by either learning to deal with them or finding a group that is more serious about the game. They're certainly not THAT big of a problem if you can deal with them.



I am an elf archer ranger. I rolled an 18 and put it in dex and got a +2 racial mod which made it a 20. Because he made every other character and they didn't have anything higher than 18 and apparently 2 14s aren't average stats and houseruled my racial bonuses away. Later he threatened that unless I got closer to the two drakes I wouldn't get xp from them.

Well, here's your first problem. Rolling for stats is basically a no-no in 4E. The game is built on player balance, and rolling for stats is an inherently UNBALANCED way to do it. That's why the suggest route is the 22-point Point Buy system, or assigning stats from one of the arrays in the PHB (which, of course, add up to the same 22 points). As far as not giving you XP for staying away from the monsters, well, that's just bad DMing and something you should talk to him in private about - an archer ranger shouldn't be getting close to combat anyway, and threatening not to give you XP is... silly, for lack of a better word.


I also forgot to add that he is planning to write a book on the campaign and has said that he is going to try to not let us die. I want the risk factor and that's another reason I asked here...

Edit: I also can't give any real feedback as I haven't dmed before

There's your second problem - D&D is a COOPERATIVE game. If the DM wants to tell a story, tell him to write a book. This is one of the biggest DMing problems out there. We usually call it railroading, because he basically put you and the rest of the party on the tracks and there's no way to get off.And I'm pretty sure Myatar's right - I believe the 4E DMG has a section about not railroading your characters.

However, this is another thing you can talk to him about pretty easily - tell him you think writing a story with the characters is neat, but that D&D is about everyone telling a cooperative story. And like the others said, it doesn't matter if you've never DMed before - D&D us a GAME, and the point is to have fun. If only some people are, then something needs to change.

One thing you COULD do, of course, is to play along in his game, but also suggest DMing a game of your own. If you're not ready for that, then you could suggest that he at least read through THIS (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76474), which is an EXCELLENT resource.

Eon
2009-07-01, 06:33 PM
I am getting ready to start my own game. I have the first adventure complete and am now gauging interest among friends

erikun
2009-07-01, 06:38 PM
First, would it be possible for you to change your character? I wouldn't think that an Elven Ranger with 20 DEX is that disruptive, but apparently your DM does. If your DM wants to lower it to 18 DEX, ask if you can put those other 2 points into CON or another stat. If he is really bothered by the archer shooting stuff with a bow for some odd reason, you might think of playing a class that gets into melee a bit more.

Secondly, your DM is a jerk. I'm sorry, but he really of is. He is, as they say, doing it wrong. Sorry, that was really uncalled for.

The goal of a DM is to engage the players and provide an interesting story; it is not trying to beat up the players. It especially does not involve penalizing a player for playing their character well. Now, if one PC happens to be outshining the other PCs, that's one thing - it's why I recommend the stat change or class change above. However, "you aren't taking damage so I'm not giving you XP" is entirely missing the point. You're playing the game, and you really shouldn't be penalized for doing so.

As for your DM, voicing your concerns is the best idea. Let him know you don't like him singling your character out like that. Try to work with him to change/modify your stats, if that's the problem. Work with him to change your character, if that's causing problems. As long as you two work together and agree, you should be able to keep playing.

And if not, then don't play. Or asking if anyone else wants to DM. Don't go over there, or if you do, take a book/music player/DS and play some games on your own. If your DM insists on pushing you out of the game, he should realize that the ultimate consequence of pushing people out is having no more players.

NPCMook
2009-07-01, 06:42 PM
If this is your first experience with 4e, or any game at all I recommend play by the book before you start whittling in Houserules

Eon
2009-07-01, 08:48 PM
I actually have played more 4e than him...

Panda-s1
2009-07-01, 09:07 PM
If this is your first experience with 4e, or any game at all I recommend play by the book before you start whittling in Houserules

This. I went though the trouble of making houserules for my first campaign (understandable given it was taking place in industrial times), but in the end I just went by the book, and handwaved most of the stuff that was pertinent to the setting. The 4e DMG (amazingly) has advice on houserules, and it's biggest piece of advice is to think hard about why you want to make the houserule, and what it would do to the game itself.


But yeah, your DM is a jerk. Do what I did and just make your own game. By the sounds of it you're the one with the right sense to be a DM, not your friend.

Eon
2009-07-01, 09:53 PM
Do what I did and just make your own game. By the sounds of it you're the one with the right sense to be a DM, not your friend.


why do you say that?

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-07-01, 09:55 PM
I also forgot to add that he is planning to write a book on the campaign and has said that he is going to try to not let us die. I want the risk factor and that's another reason I asked here...

Danger, Will Robinson!

ericgrau
2009-07-01, 10:00 PM
Quit or fix it, while doing what you can to maintain friendships. You can't live life putting up with things endlessly just to stay at peace. The game takes a significant amount of your time, so it's worth dealing with.

And I'd say recognizing a problem in someone else doesn't mean you can do it any better, nor is being able to do it better a requirement to see a problem. Usually all you need is a pair of eyes and a brain. I'd find someone else entirely to be the DM, perhaps someone with experience and a reputation for being a good DM. That would probably mean joining an existing gaming group where the players seem to be having fun.

Panda-s1
2009-07-01, 10:14 PM
why do you say that?

'Cause you've identified the problems you have with your DM, and they are pretty bad problems. I think you'd know what not to do as a DM, which is what your friend seems to lack. But that's just my opinion.

kjones
2009-07-01, 10:20 PM
Me in the one dming are the only ones who have played dnd before. And you were right! I am not having fun...

If you're not having fun when you're playing a game, something needs to change - simple as that. If the DM is unwilling to change his ways, sounds like it's time to gracefully withdraw.

Eon
2009-07-01, 11:39 PM
'Cause you've identified the problems you have with your DM, and they are pretty bad problems. I think you'd know what not to do as a DM, which is what your friend seems to lack. But that's just my opinion.

Thanks :smallsmile:

Kurald Galain
2009-07-02, 04:34 AM
What should I do? I want to quit but our moms are friends and we are friends too. My brother has suggested I do but I am not trying to ruin our friendship.
Well, if he's really your friend then he'll still be your friend regardless of whether you play in his D&D campaign.

Haarkla
2009-07-02, 07:03 AM
Well my friend started DMing a 4.0 game and one day we had it planned but only two of us showed up out of the 6. So we planned for another day and on that day 4/6 showed up and he was annoyed at the one because that ones mom was shopping and couldn't drive him because she wasn't home yet. When he arrived and one said he couldn't via text message, he was mad at that one for it. We started anyway and he had this wierd story and we were given weapons because some level 30s got killed and their essences were in us? We went into this lair with kobolds from the Dungeon Masters guide. He also lost his players handbook and seeing as I got the books the day before he said he was going to use mine. When the other players weren't doing anything right that moment they started talking constantly and it was rather annoying but he didn't do anything about it. I am an elf archer ranger. I rolled an 18 and put it in dex and got a +2 racial mod which made it a 20. Because he made every other character and they didn't have anything higher than 18 and apparently 2 14s aren't average stats and houseruled my racial bonuses away. Later he threatened that unless I got closer to the two drakes I wouldn't get xp from them.


What should I do? I want to quit but our moms are friends and we are friends too. My brother has suggested I do but I am not trying to ruin our friendship. He knows I am planning on starting a campaign (which I completed the first dungeon for it and am now waiting for some people to come back here so I can ask them) and he wants to join along with another kid from the group?
I have just been in a similar position and have recently quit a friends game. It is not that big a deal. We are still friends and play together as characters in another game.

BillyJimBoBob
2009-07-02, 09:53 AM
[snipped]
If he is really bothered by the archer shooting stuff with a bow for some odd reason, you might think of playing a class that gets into melee a bit more.

The goal of a DM is to engage the players and provide an interesting story; it is not trying to beat up the players. It especially does not involve penalizing a player for playing their character well. Now, if one PC happens to be outshining the other PCs, that's one thing - it's why I recommend the stat change or class change above. However, "you aren't taking damage so I'm not giving you XP" is entirely missing the point. You're playing the game, and you really shouldn't be penalized for doing so.

As for your DM, voicing your concerns is the best idea. Let him know you don't like him singling your character out like that.
I've cut out some pieces which were more confrontational, but the above advice is very good.

It sounds like your goals are as follows: Play a fun game of D&D, and try to modify the behavior of your GM to enable this since right now it's not happening for you.

Nothing horrible about those goals. You need to communicate your concerns, and since this is a group of friends you need to think about how to do so without confronting or challenging.

Have a private conversation with the GM. Tell him that you'd like to play your character as you conceive him, and that since he is an archer this really does mean that he'll be shooting arrows from a range in most battles. Tell him that this is no different from a Wizard casting spells from a range, and that not all characters are made to fight up close and personal with the monsters. Express your desire to play the game by the rules, and ask him to reconsider making on the fly rule modifications based on spur of the moment issues he might have while the game is in progress. Suggest that the players and the GM have a short "debriefing" session before each game session to discuss the last one and to let anyone express any concerns they may have. This includes the GM and all of the players, anyone can speak their mind about any concern, and hopefully come to an agreement on any ways of doing things differently.

This is your best hope to continue playing in his game and having it be any fun for you. If he refuses to take your suggestions seriously and doesn't change his GM style at all, then you should probably politely decline to attend any future games where he is the GM.

Lord Loss
2009-07-02, 10:27 AM
I was in a similar-ish situation, It was one of my first campaigns DMing so I wasn't all that good. Now here's what happened.

Our group was having fun, but one of our players insisted on trying to ruin the campaign. First off, I forgot to bring one of the books to level up his character, and got so pissed he grabbed my arm into this wierd position and threatened to snap it. I told him to let go or I rip his character sheet. He didn't. I ripped his sheet. My friends tackled him before he could hurt me (much) his parents (we were at his house) dragged him upstairs. The rest of us played on, until he came back down. we were in mid-adventure, and we were at a mysterious portal... He refused to enter. I hadn't planned for this and we spent the rest of the time (a half hour) arguing, until I finally went home.

The campaign pretty much ended there.

Go make your own game. That's my advice.

If your friend is an actual friend, and you don't say it in a pissed-off or jerky way, he'll understand and either change his DMing or accpet. You'll still be friends. If he's not that good a friend, who need's I'm anyway.

Eon
2009-07-02, 11:36 AM
Thanks guys you have been real helpful. When he gets back from camp I'll talk to him.

only1doug
2009-07-02, 01:29 PM
Thanks guys you have been real helpful. When he gets back from camp I'll talk to him.

Remember though to be diplomatic when you do, an overly confrontational approach could cost you a friendship.

Tallis
2009-07-02, 06:11 PM
Later he threatened that unless I got closer to the two drakes I wouldn't get xp from them.
Uh.....WHAT!?!?!?!?

You're an archer, you're not supposed to be getting close.

Why did you roll your character if he created the others? Everyone should be playing by the same rules.

The first thing I'd try is talking to him about what you want out of the game. Also ask him for his reasoning behind his unusual decisions. You can also help him to keep the other players focused on the game, involve them in your roleplaying, ask them for their ideas and opinions.

TheThan
2009-07-02, 06:17 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqH21LEmfbQ

erikun
2009-07-02, 06:26 PM
I've cut out some pieces which were more confrontational, but the above advice is very good.
Yeah, sorry about that. Reading over it again, my comments about your DM were unduely harsh. While I still think he was being unfair, that's not a reason to insult the guy.

And I think the others offered better advice (in fewer words) than I did: work with your DM to find out what's wrong, and how you two can fix it. Good luck with the game. :smallsmile:

Eon
2009-07-03, 08:53 AM
Uh.....WHAT!?!?!?!?

You're an archer, you're not supposed to be getting close.

Why did you roll your character if he created the others? Everyone should be playing by the same rules.

The first thing I'd try is talking to him about what you want out of the game. Also ask him for his reasoning behind his unusual decisions. You can also help him to keep the other players focused on the game, involve them in your roleplaying, ask them for their ideas and opinions.

He suggested I make my character

MickJay
2009-07-03, 01:18 PM
That bit about not getting XP if you're not close enough to the monster sounds like something taken right out of a MMOG :smallbiggrin:

Maybe mention this forum to your DM, there are some really good tips here on how to (and how to not) run a game.

Eon
2009-07-03, 05:43 PM
he's been on it longer than me...:smallredface:

Mystic Muse
2009-07-03, 05:49 PM
he's been on it longer than me...:smallredface:

I have to say about your DM. *facepalm*

hewhosaysfish
2009-07-04, 07:56 AM
...he grabbed my arm into this wierd position and threatened to snap it. I told him to let go or I rip his character sheet...

"Stop hurting me or I'll mildly irritate you by spoiling a casual game"?

How about: "Stop hurting me or I'll smack you in the face with a book and go fetch your parents"?

Also, the way you described it, it sounded like you and he were/are both kids.
If he were an adult it would have been: "Stop hurting me or I'll smack you in the face with a desk-lamp and go fetch the police".

Lord Loss
2009-07-04, 08:12 AM
We were both kids. And his character was one of his most prized possesions. Years later, my arm still hurts... anyway, point is LEAVE THE GAME or, if your DM is actually nice guy, try to compromise.

Ninetail
2009-07-04, 03:17 PM
Well my friend started DMing a 4.0 game and one day we had it planned but only two of us showed up out of the 6. So we planned for another day and on that day 4/6 showed up and he was annoyed at the one because that ones mom was shopping and couldn't drive him because she wasn't home yet. When he arrived and one said he couldn't via text message, he was mad at that one for it.


This kind of stuff, he just has to learn to deal with. People miss game sessions for a variety of reasons.



I am an elf archer ranger. I rolled an 18 and put it in dex and got a +2 racial mod which made it a 20. Because he made every other character and they didn't have anything higher than 18 and apparently 2 14s aren't average stats and houseruled my racial bonuses away.


Your DM is right here. An 18 and two 14s are not average. It's impossible to get those stats using the default character-creation rules. (The closest you can get is an array that goes 18/14/11... or 18/13/13...)

If he made the other characters using the standard method, then he has every right to expect you to also use the standard method... although he should have told you this ahead of time.

His handling of the situation could be better, though. Ask whether you can recreate your character using point-buy -- then you can have that 18->20 if it's really that important to you.



Later he threatened that unless I got closer to the two drakes I wouldn't get xp from them.


If you're actively fighting them, he's wrong.

If you're three rooms away and not involved in combat while the rest of the group is fighting, he's right.

As long as you're a part of the battle, though, you should be getting xp. You might want to talk with your GM about what he expects you to be doing. An archer actively tries to avoid being close to the enemy; that's the whole point of ranged weapons, after all. Above all, ask why he wants or expects you to be close to the monsters. I suspect it's because that's the way he's picturing the scene in his book.



What should I do? I want to quit but our moms are friends and we are friends too. My brother has suggested I do but I am not trying to ruin our friendship. He knows I am planning on starting a campaign (which I completed the first dungeon for it and am now waiting for some people to come back here so I can ask them) and he wants to join along with another kid from the group?

Okay... well, assuming you want to give his game a chance:

1. Tell him you're not having fun, and tell him why. Do not accuse.

2. Ask him his reasons for making those decisions that have impacted you. See whether you can come up with a compromise.

3. If you can't come to an agreement, or if he refuses to talk about it... quit. Do it gracefully and politely, but quit. Something as simple as "Sorry, but I'm not having fun, and I don't want to go on playing when that's the case" will do. Do not accuse.

4. Assuming he doesn't completely flip out, invite him to your game.

It's just a game, a friendship's more important.