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Laughingcarp
2009-07-02, 12:14 AM
I'm looking to play a Daelkyr Half-Blood Rogue-->Assassin in an upcoming 3.5 D&D Eberron game, but I've never played a sneak before. We'll be starting at level 1, but I wrote up a theoretical character build to level 6 to see if it will work the way I hope it will.

Here is a link to his stats (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=136793)

I'm not looking to super-power him or anything, just to make him effective as a stealthy killer. And after going over this, I'm a little worried that his attack bonus and AC aren't quite up to snuff.
Almost any books available, 32 point buy for stats, and the rest of the party includes a dwarven warblade, a human(?) swashbuckler(?), and a human(?) archivist --> malconvoker.

I beseech ye, great and glorious gods of gaming, to impart your wisdoms to this humble servant of the d20!
Please?

The Glyphstone
2009-07-02, 12:36 AM
Let me be the first to tell you that Assassin is very bad. Death Attack is not worth the goodies that continuing Rogue gives you if functioning as part of a party, unless you have Spell Compendium, in which case the extra Assassin spells available might make it worth it.

Assuming you stick with Assassin, though, there are some useful feats and items in...Drow of the Underdark, maybe? the Bracers of Murder give you a bonus to the Death Attack DC, and there's some poison related feats.

Hat-Trick
2009-07-02, 01:10 AM
The assassin's dagger is Core and adds to the DC of the death attack. Boosting INT is a very good idea as well, to keep the DC up.

Laughingcarp
2009-07-02, 01:15 AM
Bad? Huh.
And I have got the spell compendium, so which spells should I be specifically grabbing?

Is the assassin's dagger even worth that much cash?

Hat-Trick
2009-07-02, 01:44 AM
Just mentioning. A headband of intellect may be better, but I'd take the dagger anyway, just because. Then again, I'm a 'Meh' on the Optimize grid.

Person_Man
2009-07-02, 09:48 AM
Sneak Attack feats (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66915). Feat index (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/feats).

The four most important Sneak Attack feats:

Dragonfire Strike: Turns your Sneak Attack damage into energy damage, bypassing Precision Damage immunity, assuming your DM is nice about it (some argue that you must first deal the Sneak Attack damage before it becomes energy damage).

Staggering Strike: Staggers enemy for 1 round when you Sneak Attack them with a melee attack. Ridiculously useful against boss enemies, in that it prevents them from making a full attack or casting a full round action spells.

Craven: +1 damage per character level on every Sneak Attack. The equivalent of Power Attack without reducing your To-Hit bonus.

Darkstalker: Enemies with Tremorsense, Scent, Blindsight, etc, must still make a Spot check in order to locate you when you Hide.


Ways to Qualify for Sneak Attack:

1) Ambush: If you ambush your enemy, you get a free Surprise Round against them. A Flat Footed enemy loses their Dex bonus until they act. Remember the the Surprise Round is only a Standard Action. So you'll need Greater Manyshot (www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Greater_Manyshot_(Feat)) or Pounce (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103358) (remember that you can still Charge (www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Charge) if your actions are limited) to get a full attack.

2) Win Initiative: If you win Initiative, you enemy is still Flat Footed, and still denied their Dex bonus.

3) Flanking: Have someone summon a lot of weak creatures. Here's a good list (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5876523&postcount=16) of magic items to do just that.

4) More Flanking: Invest in Handle Animal. Buy a lot of dogs. They're cheap and easy to train.

5) Still More Flanking: Invest in Tumble, get behind your enemies, have your party's meatshield fight in front of them.

6) Yet More Flanking: Adaptable Flanker feat (PHBII) allows you to flank from any square. Combine with a reach weapon, and now you can stand next to or even behind a friend and still flank an enemy.

7) Tome of Battle Flanking: Island of Blades, a Shadow Hand stance allows you to flank from any square as long as you and an ally are both adjacent to the enemy. You can get this from a one level dip into Swordsage, or by taking the Martial Study -> Martial Stance feats.

8) Dear Gods, How Much Flanking Do We Need?: Obtain Familiar + Improved Familiar, if you can cast arcane spells. Now you have a full time friend to Flank with, and he can Share Spells with you (like Alter Self and Greater Invisibility).

9) Armor Lock: 1st level spell from Complete Scoundrel that works on enemies wearing armor. Buy a wand.

10) Greater Invisibility: Once your party hits level 7ish, there's really no reason someone in your group shouldn't cast this on you at the start of every combat.

11) Ring of Blinking: If you're party members are jerks and refuse to cast Greater Invisibility on you, use this item instead. Pick up the Pierce Magical Concealment feat (Complete Arcane) to ignore your 20% miss chance.

12) Skill Tricks: Again, check out the Complete Scoundrel. Skill Tricks can be very useful (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88633).

13) Fear: If your enemy is Cowering, he loses his Dex bonus. There are a large variety of ways to get and use Fear effects, and a variety of ways to corner or immobilize him.

14) Stun: If your enemy is stunned, he loses his Dex bonus. Work with the Monk in your party, or ask the caster to use spells with this effect.

15) Blind: If your enemy is blind, he loses his Dex bonus. There are spells and alchemical items that do this.

16) Helpless: There are a variety of spells and a few effects that render your foe paralyzed or otherwise helpless. A Rogue's Coup de Grace almost never fails.

17) Hide in Plain Site: There are many ways to get this. My favorite is a dip into Warlock let's you Hide in Plain Site (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57352) every round as a Swift action. This means that any enemy who fails their Spot check is denied their Dex bonus against your next attack. Not efficient if you want to make full attacks, but helpful nonetheless.

18) Grappling: An opponent who is grappled loses their Dex bonus to everyone except the grappler, another way to tag team with your party members. Or invest in Handle animal and buy mules, which are a cheap and effective Grapple partner.

19) Net, Razor Net, Lasso: Each of these is a touch attack that imposes a -4 penalty on Dex. Penalties from different sources stack. Enemies with 0 Dex count as being paralyzed. I wouldn't even bother with taking the Exotic Weapon feats, because touch attacks are easy, so the -4 penalty to hit is palatable. Though I would definitely invest in Spell Storing weapons, and find spells that deal Dex damage/penalties. Here's a list (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6342523&postcount=23) of ways to deal Dex damage.

20) Feint: This is a retarded waste of an action in most cases. But it works well at low levels if you're not using TWF, and if you're an Invisible Blade with the Surprising Riposte feat (Drow of the Underdark), it works for a full attack.

21) Telling Blow (PHBII): When you crit, you also deal Sneak Attack. I'm not a fan of this method. It doesn't double your Sneak Attack if you flank and crit, WotC has made it clear that it just let's you qualify. So at best 30% of your attacks get Sneak Attack. There are many better uses for your feats, IMO.

22) More Tome of Battle Craziness: There are a bunch of manuevers which render your enemy Flat Footed or otherwise deny them their Dex bonus, especially in the Tiger Claw and Shadow Hand disciplines. You can also get Sneak Attack via the Assassin's Stance, which still qualifies you for the best Sneak Attack feats (Staggering Strike, Craven, etc). So in many ways a Swordsage is a better Sneak Attacker then the Rogue. (Or you can go Rogue 1/Swordsage X or Swordsage X/Nightsong Enforcer 1 so that you can use other stances).

tyckspoon
2009-07-02, 09:50 AM
Bad? Huh.
And I have got the spell compendium, so which spells should I be specifically grabbing?

Is the assassin's dagger even worth that much cash?

More specifically, Death Attack is a trap. The rest of Assassin is decent- it continues your skills and your sneak attack, gets you Hide In Plain Sight if you take it long enough, and gets you spells. It's just Death Attack that doesn't really work well. I wouldn't concentrate on it; for me, an Assassin is best played like a normal Rogue who happens to not need Use Magic Device for certain spells.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-07-02, 12:05 PM
Bad? Huh.
And I have got the spell compendium, so which spells should I be specifically grabbing?

Is the assassin's dagger even worth that much cash?No, the Assassin's Dagger isn't. Death Attack is a poor ability, since the only opponents likely to fail the save(low con, poor Fort) likely will die of straight damage fairly easily. If you want to go Assassin for the spells and special abilities, that's fine, but the Rogue special abilities are IMHO better than the Assassin ones. Assassin isn't junk, but Death Attack turns the class into a newbie trap.

The Gilded Duke
2009-07-02, 12:19 PM
I prefer to use the Binder class for making my assassins. If you pick the right vestiges you gain Death Attack as a charisma based binding ability. It is then easier to boost, take the previously mentioned assasin's dagger for +1 dc, take the Veil of Allure for +2 Dc, and then the binder item I think it was a monacle or something, that gives you another +1 DC.

If you want to pump it up more you can then pick the favored vestige feat for king of killers, and also bind Ipos for additional dc boosts, then I think there is a monster feat you can also pick up to raise it by an additional +1.

And then in general I find charisma to be a much more useful stat then intelligence. UMD, Bluff, Diplomacy etc.

Person_Man
2009-07-02, 12:53 PM
I prefer to use the Binder class for making my assassins. If you pick the right vestiges you gain Death Attack as a charisma based binding ability. It is then easier to boost, take the previously mentioned assasin's dagger for +1 dc, take the Veil of Allure for +2 Dc, and then the binder item I think it was a monacle or something, that gives you another +1 DC.

If you want to pump it up more you can then pick the favored vestige feat for king of killers, and also bind Ipos for additional dc boosts, then I think there is a monster feat you can also pick up to raise it by an additional +1.

And then in general I find charisma to be a much more useful stat then intelligence. UMD, Bluff, Diplomacy etc.

I think Int is far more valuable at low levels (giving you a ton of extra Skill Points), and Cha is more useful at mid-levels (A Paladin 8ish should have no trouble hitting most UMD checks if he invests in in cross class, and there are a bunch of Fear/Intimidate builds which run off of Cha that are devestating at mid levels but mostly useless at high levels).

But I agree that Binder rocks. With 2 debuff auras and a number of other debuff attacks, Binders have the best chance of success for most Save related abilities. Binder also let's you choose any vestige to bind, so you can change your build radically every morning (or in the middle of the day with the Expel Vestige feat). Unfortunately, Death Attack (Marchosias) isn't available until 15th level. And by then, you generally have better things to do with your abilities.

Myrmex
2009-07-02, 01:25 PM
More specifically, Death Attack is a trap. The rest of Assassin is decent- it continues your skills and your sneak attack, gets you Hide In Plain Sight if you take it long enough, and gets you spells. It's just Death Attack that doesn't really work well. I wouldn't concentrate on it; for me, an Assassin is best played like a normal Rogue who happens to not need Use Magic Device for certain spells.

Yup.
Assassin is not a bad PrC. If you are going to get high level, I like it more than Shadowdancer because it doesn't have lame-ass feat reqs and you still get HiPS. SpC spells are great for the assassin, too. You could try to get your DM to let you give up the death attack ability for Beguiler mechanics for casting. I did that once. It's quite powerful if you let the asn have unfettered access to every asn spell out there.

You will definitely want wraithstrike. Resolve your melee attacks as touch attacks!

Laughingcarp
2009-07-03, 07:38 PM
So I take it that basically no matter what, even with the ability focus (death attack) feat and other DC boosting items, death attack and the assassin PrC aren't worth taking?

What about the Umbral Disciple, from Magic of Incarnum?
Moderate sneak attack increase, bonuses to knowledge, jump climb tumble and balance, concealment & HiPS, blindsight, str damage on hits, and increased reach. Anyone ever played one?

AslanCross
2009-07-03, 07:53 PM
The assassin has a number of really good spells in Spell Compendium:

-Critical Strike
-Sniper's Shot
-Wraithstrike

Myatar_Panwar
2009-07-03, 08:03 PM
If you are giving yourself Craven and some other good rogue stuff, nothing wrong with wanting to use death attack. The feat, the weapon, and a high int should get you some decent DC's.

The Glyphstone
2009-07-03, 09:11 PM
If you are giving yourself Craven and some other good rogue stuff, nothing wrong with wanting to use death attack. The feat, the weapon, and a high int should get you some decent DC's.

The problem is that even with a decent save DC on the Death Attack, there is very little that it will kill that 4 consecutive rounds of Sneak Attack damage, possibly with multiple attacks per round, won't kill - anything with the HP to survive that much pure damage will be almost guaranteed to have a Fort save high enough to shrug off the Death Attack you'd throw instead.

The Gilded Duke
2009-07-03, 09:42 PM
One thing that you can do with Death Attack though is study before you begin the attacks, either during discussion or while hiding and observing.

One of my favorite methods with death attack is to have improved unarmed strike. Watch someone for a while, shake their hand and then death attack.

Myatar_Panwar
2009-07-03, 10:27 PM
The problem is that even with a decent save DC on the Death Attack, there is very little that it will kill that 4 consecutive rounds of Sneak Attack damage, possibly with multiple attacks per round, won't kill - anything with the HP to survive that much pure damage will be almost guaranteed to have a Fort save high enough to shrug off the Death Attack you'd throw instead.

Who the hell uses death attack mid combat? That just sounds silly.

The Glyphstone
2009-07-03, 10:32 PM
Before combat? Okay, then we factor in the damage that your entire party could be doing during those three rounds that you're sitting there playing Voyeur Of Death, and Death Attack falls even further behind.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-07-03, 10:35 PM
The problem is that even with a decent save DC on the Death Attack, there is very little that it will kill that 4 consecutive rounds of Sneak Attack damage, possibly with multiple attacks per round, won't kill - anything with the HP to survive that much pure damage will be almost guaranteed to have a Fort save high enough to shrug off the Death Attack you'd throw instead.

That is DEFINITELY not the point...you should NEVER just sit around observing them DURING combat, the ability doesnt even work that way!

Death attack is allright if you find an easy way to boost the save DC...otherwise, meh :smalltongue:

EDIT: Ninja-assasined.

The Glyphstone
2009-07-03, 10:41 PM
That is DEFINITELY not the point...you should NEVER just sit around observing them DURING combat, the ability doesnt even work that way!

Death attack is allright if you find an easy way to boost the save DC...otherwise, meh :smalltongue:

EDIT: Ninja-assasined.

I wasn't saying that...but as noted above, it gets even worse if you're delaying your entire party from fighting for 3 rounds. Waiting 3 rounds before engaging with an opening death attack is way worse than using that surprise to have your entire party unleash a devastating ambush, then proceeding to Sneak Attack for 3 more rounds on the poor sucker.

Death attack only becomes superior when you don't have a useless non-stealthy party bogging you down, such as in solo adventures or when you get separated from them. The problem is that these situations are so infrequent compared to normal combats that investing resources to make yourself effective during said situations will hamper you the rest of the time.

The Gilded Duke
2009-07-03, 11:13 PM
I hate using incidental support for arguments, but I have seen it used to wonderful effect. You don't have to be hidden to use it, you just have to be able to sneak attack. Flanking, invisible attacker, feint, or any other method.

So use it while the villain is monologuing, or for killing someone before they know you are hostile. It isn't the best method of attack, but it can be useful. At some points you can use it without much difficulty while you are already sneak attacking.

It actually works pretty well for assassinating people. The big problem with the ability is some of the already built in multiple attribute disorder with the assassin. However if you are focusing on spell casting you will at least have a decent intelligence bonus so the save will not be too low.

Remember the DC is 10 + Assassin Level +Int
With enough class levels your base DC is 20+Int, better then non-epic spells can get.

There are also a few ways to increase the base save further (at the cost of other things)

The Black Dog prestige class in dragonmarked stacks with Assasin to determine the DC, giving you a DC 25 base. As well as the previously mentioned assasin dagger and feats.

The main problem I find with focusing on death attack is that you can't usually use int to attack and damage, but there are methods to make it work as well if you really want to focus on death attack.

Laughingcarp
2009-07-05, 12:07 AM
I'll most likely end up doing a lot of scouting work, so I'll have plenty of opportunities to Death Attack enemies without wasting party actions.

Mr. Glyphstone sir, I don't believe I'll be at all disputing your argument that 4 rounds of sneak attack beat 1 death attack. The difference is that in 4 rounds of combat the enemy will have plenty of chances to sound the alarm, whereas with a slower 1 hit kill, I'll be able to ghost my way through. Shiny.

And while we're on topic, how does one about getting multiple hits in a surprise round?

Right now with the way I've got my character set up, I think assassin'll still work out alright. My int isn't exactly big, but with the ability focus feat, bracers of murder, an assassin's dagger, and this feat (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Improved_Death_Attack_%28Epic_Feat%29) I found on the D&D wiki site that my DM will probably approve, I should be ok as far as the Death Attack DC goes.

The assassin's spells are great, and for first level I'm thinking of going with True Strike and probably Sniper's Shot. That sound alright?

As for weapons, I've weapon finessed the standard dagger for close work.
For distance, I've got a bit of a treat. With a pinch of houseruling and a lot of cash, you take the sniper's crossbow from Quintessential Rogue and the great crossbow from Races of Stone to get a crossbow that can make a sneak attack at ~120ft, 2d8 standard damage, with an 18-20 crit range.

What am I missing?