An Old Secret Of Haley's...

[Masamune]

Back when Haley couldn't speak, she was trying to confess her secrets to Elan over dinner, she told them all, but then she started to tell a really big one, one that "V doesn't even know", but is then cut off by the waitress. Any Ideas as to what that was? also, what ever happened to Haley's father sub-plot? Was it just never mentioned again and forgotten?

[GreenyDread]

That great secret was discussed here pretty much, it's about Haley saying: "I'm not really what you would call-". Most people think, that this ends with "-human.", so she might be an Aasimar/Tiefling or something like that.

The plot about Haleys father is probably connected to Elan's and Nale's father, who seems to be some kind of dictator. I'm pretty sure that a part of the plot will take place in that dictatorship, revealing, what Haley is, how her father got caught, etc.

[Deliverance]

Haley's father's sub-plot had no real options for development while Haley was on the wrong continent. Now that she has arrived on the western continent, I would be deeply surprised if the OOTS didn't happen to visit Tyrinaria on the way.

[Thanatosia]

I dont think there's been anything in the comic to hint at Haley being anything but human, I suspect the big secret was the father sub-plot.

[rainbowjo]

I dont think there's been anything in the comic to hint at Haley being anything but human, I suspect the big secret was the father sub-plot.

Naw, she already admited to her father being held by an evil dictator or something when shes confessing.

[Teddy]

No, she already confessed that to him. It's something much more significant to Haley than her father being held captive by an evil dictator.

EDIT: Ninja'd

[Ripped Shirt Kirk]

I'm not exactly what you would call straight. I mean come on, she just said that she had kissed a girl more than once, and the simplest answer is most likely the right one.

[The Rose Dragon]

But that's no big secret know, is it? She already admitted that one (also, her bisexuality is also self-admittedly latent). It makes much more sense that it's something ridiculous. Like she's a half-fiend half-elemental half-dragon half-celestial half-fey half-elf saint.

She's three times the man you can ever be - and she's female!

...wait.

What if she's not female?

Dum-dum-DUM!

[Ancalagon]

What if she's not female?

Elan would have discovered that by now. We probably can assume: no gender-confusion regarding Haley.

[ObadiahtheSlim]

They got a belt for that.

[Kish]

Most people think, that this ends with "-human."
Ahem. Most? Really? You've polled the forum?

I've always thought the answer was "a good person."

[Ancalagon]

They got a belt for that.

Uhm... you know... it's better if you, well, actually.... undress? The/an unremovable belt would probably cause some issues in that regard...

[Random832]

what about "a single-class rogue"? Or are enough rogue abilities to account for her entire character level all accounted for?


Uhm... you know... it's better if you, well, actually.... undress? The/an unremovable belt would probably cause some issues in that regard...

It's cursed; removing the belt doesn't change you back - Durkon had to cast Remove Curse.

[Borris]

I'd go for: "I'm not exactly what you would call good."

Elan might be clearly chaotic good, and except for the greedy side, Haley certainly appears to be as well. But when the Order is not around, she goes killing helpless nemeses, apparently just for the sake of revenge.

[Dienekes]

Elan would have discovered that by now. We probably can assume: no gender-confusion regarding Haley.

You obviously have a higher regard for Elan's ability to make such a discovery than I do.

[Random832]

I'd go for: "I'm not exactly what you would call good."

Elan might be clearly chaotic good, and except for the greedy side, Haley certainly appears to be as well. But when the Order is not around, she goes killing helpless nemeses, apparently just for the sake of revenge.

I'm not going to get into the recurring debate of whether it actually has an effect on whether it's an evil act or not, but there is clearly more than just revenge as a motive there.

[Mauve Shirt]

I think it might be "human" because the Giant's said that Haley is Sabine's opposite in a way he hasn't revealed. Also, what kind of gigantic secret is "a good person"? If she wasn't a good person, would she have trouble telling V that?

[Kish]

Also, what kind of gigantic secret is "a good person"? If she wasn't a good person, would she have trouble telling V that?
Did Vaarsuvius tell the rest of the group that s/he felt guilty over the Azurite soldiers who died--or is that a big secret? Is "I don't consider myself a good person, in fact my self-loathing is strong enough to become an independent personality fragment" something someone would have a hard time admitting?

[homeosapiens]

That would mean Sabine is lawful evil and a devil?

And Haley would be what?

[Mauve Shirt]

Did Vaarsuvius tell the rest of the group that s/he felt guilty over the Azurite soldiers who died--or is that a big secret? Is "I don't consider myself a good person, in fact my self-loathing is strong enough to become an independent personality fragment" something someone would have a hard time admitting?


Not if they were a bad person.

[Jair Barik]

Isn't there translations in one of the books or something

[JT Jag]

Isn't there translations in one of the books or somethingYes, but it's of no use because she gets cut off at "I'm not exactly what you would call..."

[Kish]

Not if they were a bad person.
...oh wow. I don't know where to begin with this. The world isn't divided into proud Good People and Xykonish sociopaths, nor does thinking you're a good person make you one, nor does thinking you're not a good person make you not one. Haley's self-loathing is plain to see (literally), and that is what would lead her to tell Elan in a guilty, roundabout way that she's not a good person. And that is the thrust of her ongoing conversation with her self-loathing: that what Elan doesn't know is that she's not nearly good enough for him.

[Mauve Shirt]

Ok, when I said that I was on the Belkar side of the scale, which is what many people say Haley is on after killing Crystal. I guess Haley could say that she was not a good person 'cause she hates herself, but that's not nearly as interesting.

[Super_slash2]

Actually, I always figured this secret was related to hat she said about all her loved ones leaving her.

I don't think it's directly related to her being a rogue, her father is one and is a good person. I don't think she would consider herself bad simply for being a rogue, so this reason they all left her alone seems related to her big secret.

[Kaytara]

I don't know, something that Haley hasn't even told V, something that's her biggest secret EVER... "I'm not a good person" sounds entirely too general to my taste. I think I'm in the "not human" camp. Besides, Rich said in Dungeon Crawlin' Fools that there is another hidden trait that links Haley and Sabine. Haley being an Aasimar isn't something she would be ashamed of. Being part-fiend, on the other hand...

[Optimystik]

It's cursed; removing the belt doesn't change you back - Durkon had to cast Remove Curse.

Actually, you can't even remove a cursed belt UNTIL the curse is removed/suppressed.

[Ancalagon]

Actually, you can't even remove a cursed belt UNTIL the curse is removed/suppressed.

Thanks for the quote, I just wanted to make it... now I can add my planned reply which is "Which is why I wrote 'The/an unremovable belt blabla.'"


You obviously have a higher regard for Elan's ability to make such a discovery than I do.

I strongly do believe that even Elan would realise if Haley had the "boy feature" in the region of her hips when undressed instead of the expected "girl feature"... your remark is a bit strange, to be honest. You really expect Elan not to notice something like that?

[Timberboar]

I strongly do believe that even Elan would realise if Haley had the "boy feature" in the region of her hips when undressed instead of the expected "girl feature"... your remark is a bit strange, to be honest. You really expect Elan not to notice something like that?

He's failed easier spot checks. That's all I'm sayin'. :smallbiggrin:

[Miklus]

I strongly do believe that even Elan would realise if Haley had the "boy feature" in the region of her hips when undressed instead of the expected "girl feature"... your remark is a bit strange, to be honest. You really expect Elan not to notice something like that?

I don't think Elan has ever seen a girl naked before, and Haley has good bluff skill! :smalltongue:

Just kiddin'

[The Rose Dragon]

Actually, you can't even remove a cursed belt UNTIL the curse is removed/suppressed.

Originally, the Girdle of Femininity / Masculinity was not a cursed item. It was like a potion in belt form: you would put it on, it would change your sex and become a completely mundane belt. So, it would be quite easy to get it off.

[Slimslamer]

He's failed easier spot checks. That's all I'm sayin'. :smallbiggrin:

That's a pretty hard spot check to fail.

[Croverus]

Elan is a Bard... I think he'd know enough about when a man and a woman get together to know if something was not right. It's like a secret bard call ability: Stories of Love... and Illegitamate Children

I think the "not human" is probably the most likely, and certainly would make for a better plot point than "not good".

Or should could be telling him she's not the type of person to settle down...

[Ancalagon]

About underestimating Elan: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0159.html

He's a bard and Haley surely is not the first lady he saw without clothing. Apart from that... even if she was, Elan would know enough about anatomy to find out if "Haley was actually a man".

In fact, I cannot decide if it is too hot and if it is therefore that my mind seems to be slower or if I already got dumber discussing this here...

[batsofchaos]

Come on, more of this "not human" nonsense? Why don't you tell me how her heart tattoo on her back is the scar from when her wings were removed. *eye roll* It's an incredibly far-fetched theory where the only corroborating evidence is a half-finished sentence and a statement about how Haley and Sabine have an opposite feature that's yet to be revealed in the first book. A feature that was revealed in War and XPs: Sabine is confident in herself, knows what she wants, and is willing to admit these things to herself and others without doubt or loathing. Haley, up until the halfway point in War and XPs, was none of these things. She did eventually get beyond them and got into a position where she could put self-doubt in its place and be ready for an actual relationship, but before that (which was when that mis-used "evidence" was written) she was insecure, wracked with self-doubt, filled with self-hate, and willing to spend her entirely life hiding rather than admit anything personal about herself to anyone. That is quite opposite Sabine.

You know what I think it was? Either "confident" or something along those lines that fit with the character growth Haley went through in getting together with Elan, or something that will be revealed in time but has only been obliquely referenced thus far if at all.

[Tenebrais]

You know what I think it was? Either "confident" or something along those lines that fit with the character growth Haley went through in getting together with Elan, or something that will be revealed in time but has only been obliquely referenced thus far if at all.

I wouldn't have thought that a secret so well-hidden that even Vaarsuvius doesn't know it. In fact, any personality trait isn't going to fit that. It would really have to be something Haley needs to divulge herself, even if that's nothing more surprising than "a virgin" or something.

[batsofchaos]

I wouldn't have thought that a secret so well-hidden that even Vaarsuvius doesn't know it. In fact, any personality trait isn't going to fit that. It would really have to be something Haley needs to divulge herself, even if that's nothing more surprising than "a virgin" or something.

That's fair. I'd lean more heavily on the latter explanation than the former. There is still something to be said about being so self-loathing and hiding behind lies and half-truths that even if those truths are fairly self-evident to those around you they are still almost impossible to admit. I'd say it more likely has yet to be revealed and most definitely not that she's not human.

[Ancalagon]

Come on, more of this "not human" nonsense?

Come on, #666 featured her!!1! There's no other proof you need she's related to some devil or demon!!111 ;)

(Should I have added more typoes to sound genuine?)

[Kalbron]

It could have been Haley saying "I'm not exactly sane."

Well it is valid. I mean, she's got at least a half-dozen personalities that manifest before her eyes. If that's not a significant fact that V wouldn't know, then there's only the future strips where we'll find the answer.

[Optimystik]

Originally, the Girdle of Femininity / Masculinity was not a cursed item. It was like a potion in belt form: you would put it on, it would change your sex and become a completely mundane belt. So, it would be quite easy to get it off.

The one in OotS is likely based on the Baldur's Gate belt - unremovable except by Remove Curse (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0249.html), and found on an ogre. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0009.html)

Also, "reverse gender" is a continuous drawback curse (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/cursedItems.htm) in 3.5; such items are not one-shot.

[Asta Kask]

I always thought it was "a virgin."

[The Rose Dragon]

The one in OotS is likely based on the Baldur's Gate belt - unremovable except by Remove Curse (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0249.html), and found on an ogre. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0009.html)

Also, "reverse gender" is a continuous drawback curse (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/cursedItems.htm) in 3.5; such items are not one-shot.

Yes, remind me how 3.5 ruined my childhood by changing most of the cool stuff back in AD&D. That's sure to make me happy. :smalltongue:

[Kaytara]

Come on, more of this "not human" nonsense? Why don't you tell me how her heart tattoo on her back is the scar from when her wings were removed. *eye roll* It's an incredibly far-fetched theory where the only corroborating evidence is a half-finished sentence and a statement about how Haley and Sabine have an opposite feature that's yet to be revealed in the first book. A feature that was revealed in War and XPs: Sabine is confident in herself, knows what she wants, and is willing to admit these things to herself and others without doubt or loathing. Haley, up until the halfway point in War and XPs, was none of these things. ....

In addition to what Tenebrais said (who I agree with 100%), that doesn't really fit from a meta storytelling perspective, either. Haley's Unrevealed Secret(tm) is a major, tantalising plot hook and a great source of potential future drama, not to mention suspense. To fulfill it with something as trivial as a minor personality flaw without even making it clear in the story that you're addressing that plot point would be lame.

I mean, imagine that someone will ask after the comic ends: "What about Haley's big secret and her link to Sabine? That never got resolved". And Rich answered "Oh, that? Yeah, Sabine's confident and self-assured and Haley wasn't. That's it." Do you honestly believe many people would find that satisfying?

The "human" or "mortal" idea may be far-fetched, but it fits better than most. Let's examine (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0309.html) the evidence. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0311.html)
1) Something BIG and important
2) Something V doesn't even know, i.e. it's not something anyone can learn about Haley if she's deliberately hiding it and lying about it
3) Directly tied to the reason everyone "good and pure" who got close to Haley left, including her own mother
4) Causes Haley to think that she's not good enough
5) By hiding it, Haley prevents people from really "knowing her heart" and thus being able to really hurt her

It's tricky, but as I said, I think something to do with Haley's race fits well enough. It's a quality that isn't evident and something Haley has to divulge. It's also a cause of shame for her and something that leads people who know her to leave her - in disgust? Out of fear? To protect her? Tough to say. But Haley having some sort of blood tie to something dark and evil fits well enough. Rich usually manages a twist, so it's almost certainly not going to be exactly that, but I don't see how this theory counts as ridiculous. Relative of Sabine? Relative of the IFCC? Part-dragon and relative of Girard Draketooth? Latent Bhaalspawn? The possibilities are endless. XD

[Dark Faun]

Latent Bhaalspawn?
...Excuse me as I go reinstall Baldur's Gate to play Haley Starshine.

I agree that this makes much sense. It may even be linked to her father's imprisonment for all we know. Maybe we'll have an Ammon Jerro style sanctuary in Girard's Gate and the Order will need the blood of a descendant of Draketooth.

[Kaytara]

...Excuse me as I go reinstall Baldur's Gate to play Haley Starshine.

I agree that this makes much sense. It may even be linked to her father's imprisonment for all we know. Maybe we'll have an Ammon Jerro style sanctuary in Girard's Gate and the Order will need the blood of a descendant of Draketooth.

Ending with Haley dying stupidly? No thanks. XD

But no, the Bhaalspawn idea was completely a joke. XD I truly doubt Rich either wants or needs to recycle plots like that. XD

[Murdim]

But no, the Bhaalspawn idea was completely a joke. XD I truly doubt Rich either wants or needs to recycle plots like that. XDReally ? We know that her father is Ian Starshine, but for what we know about her mother (i.e Good-aligned human-like being) she could perfectly be Imoen.

That would make her Bhaal's granddaughter :smallbiggrin:

[Kish]

Really ? We know that her father is Ian Starshine, but for what we know about her mother (i.e Good-aligned human-like being) she could perfectly be Imoen.
What would Imoen have been doing with a First Edition thief?

(This whole tangent is extremely silly, but most of this thread is.)

[Murdim]

What would Imoen have been doing with a First Edition thief?Three possibilities :

By character conversion : Ian converted to AD&D2, or both to D&D3.

By sum of their editions : 1 + 2 = 3 !

By special use of the Wish spell.

[DBear]

I always thought it was "a virgin."

Why would Elan care?:smallconfused:

[batsofchaos]

It's not going to be "But wait! What was the unrevealed difference between Haley and Sabine?" after the story has ended, it's already been stated in War and XPs. If you got to the end without an answer to that question, you weren't paying attention to the War and XPs commentary.

As I stated, I'm leaning towards it being something as-yet-unrevealed, rather than a good person, or confident, or a virgin, or that she used to be a mouseketeer, etc. In addition, all your evidence points to is that it's a question that has not been answered yet, and it's something that Haley is embarrassed about/blames some self-confidence issues on. Extrapolating that she feels that way based on some sort of demonic or divine heritage is making some severe assumptions. Assumptions that have no evidence beyond "this is an answer that kinda fits these vague parameters outlined in a handful of lines of dialogue, if you squint and turn your head." There's dialogue elsewhere that makes the answer unlikely, such as this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0518.html) exchange between Haley and Tsukiko regarding dressing goth and the existence of actual demons. It's based on Haley's life experience of being a goth and how she grew out of it, along with a very valid reason for why being gothy in DnD doesn't make sense. If she were part demon, this exchange would be confusing and non-sensical, since she'd be complaining about...herself? One of her parents? It doesn't fit.

[littlequietguy]

I'm not exactly what you would call "existent".

POOF *Disappears into a puff of smoke*

[Tijne]

I always thought it was "a virgin."
That's actually the first thing I thought of too when it happened.
Though after considering all of the order's actions and such, I can't imagine why that would be a big deal to any of them really. [Except Durkon.]


Maybe it's.. "Single"? Maybe she was forced into some arranged marriage or something and never bothered to 'properly' get out of it...

[Ikialev]

I'm not exactly what you would call female.

She's a manfuta. So, Elan is gay homosexual blue normal person.

[Kaytara]

batsofchaos, I do not have War and XPs yet, so I guess that explains it. Did Rich actually confirm that that was Haley's unrevealed secret and the mysterious parallel between her and Sabine? In those exact words? I'm slightly sceptical because I haven't seen anyone else mention it.

You make a fair point about Haley's comment about live flesh-and-blood demons, but I already said that I don't think it has to be specifically fiends, per se. I was just arguing that the argument that it has something to do with her race is not an unreasonable one.

[Mauve Shirt]

It's not going to be "But wait! What was the unrevealed difference between Haley and Sabine?" after the story has ended, it's already been stated in War and XPs. If you got to the end without an answer to that question, you weren't paying attention to the War and XPs commentary.
Don't suppose you could put what you found in a spoiler? I have War and XPs, but apparently I wasn't paying attention to the commentary (though I did read it cover to cover at least 3 times), 'cause I have no idea what you're talking about.

[batsofchaos]

Pretty much, it's not said using those exact words, but it's stated clearly in a comparison between Sabine and Nale's relationship versus Haley and Elan's. In my opinion it's fairly explicitely spelled out. I am frankly surprised more people haven't said anything as well.

I'll give you that she could be talking about race, provided the gravity she is imposing on whatever the secret is, but it could just as easily be anything else that Haley personally holds important.

EDIT: Mauve Shirt, I'm at work and WnXP is at home, so it'll have to wait a couple hours.

[Olorin Maia]

I'll give you that she could be talking about race, provided the gravity she is imposing on whatever the secret is, but it could just as easily be anything else that Haley personally holds important.



Could Haley be either elf or half-elf? Look at Haley's Intellect (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0382.html) here and you see that its a possibility.

I know that if I'm wrong, I will be promptly told so, but I thought it was kinda cool.

[batsofchaos]

We've not seen any pointy ears on her. OotS elves are portrayed as having pointy ears, while half-elves have one pointy ear. Classically, one could argue that she hid her pointy ear(s) in her hair, but the recent haircut throws a wrench in that. Also, in the prequel book On the Origin of PCs there's a conversation between Haley and V about the long lives of Elves compared to humans that makes it clear Haley is not elf in whole or part. One could argue she lied about being human, but it's fairly clear she is at least not elf.

The pointy-eared figment is most-likely just a vulcan joke.

[The_Librarian]

Maybe it's.. "Single"? Maybe she was forced into some arranged marriage or something and never bothered to 'properly' get out of it...

Darn you, sir, darn you! I was thinking "single", though I didn't think it was an arranged or forced marriage, more she'd genuinely loved someone, he'd vanished out of her life, so she was still married.
For uber-weirdness, maybe she was married to Xykon!
I concur with the people who say "good".

[Zanaril]

For uber-weirdness, maybe she was married to Xykon!

Please do not feed the crack pairings thread.Thank you.

[Kaytara]

Please do not feed the crack pairings thread.Thank you.

Silence, you! *gags Zanaril Taru* The_Librarian, DO carry on with your fascinating ideas. Tell us more. XD

Anyway, the elf idea doesn't make sense, if only because being an elf isn't something that's likely to drive loved-ones away from her.

[abishur]

I always thought it was "a virgin."

Gotta toss in my bet with "a virgin" also. The not human argument is really just asinine. She had already confessed her father was in jail. As for the good argument, well in her final confessions just before she gains her speech back she tells Elan that she's chaotic good(ish). A lot of people try to down play that as a lie (which is false because the whole point of the comic is she's pouring out honest confessions, a thing that ultimately allows her to regain her speech.) or try to emphasize the "ish", but ultimately that just points out that she leans more to the side of chaotic without denying that she's still doing it with "good" motives.... I'll stop there before this turns into a Haley's alignment post :smallredface:

The point I'm trying to make is while virgin makes a lot of sense, the others I've heard mentioned don't. It could be something else entirely, and that would be cool. If it is virgin, I doubt Elan would care. I mean, the dude is constantly getting room keys from women, he was rounding second base and heading for third with Samantha. Elan's no virgin either is what I'm going for. The fear for Haley in admitting this about herself, however, is that "all the others left" and she's afraid that Elan would leave if he knew this about her.

[Lissou]

I remember thinking "human" too when I first read that strip.

I don't think it is "a virgin": that doesn't seem to be a big deal for anyone in the comic and certainly wouldn't be one for Elan, who is a bard.

However, I'm leaning towards something unexpected, that hasn't been mentioned yet.

(I also have War&XP and have missed the "this is the important difference I was talking about in the other book" commentary)

[batsofchaos]

I have strong doubts that "virgin" is the answer, simply based on how sex is portrayed the rest of the time in the comic. Sex is treated progressively, with characters jumping into bed together fairly quickly based on 1) the relative safeness of sex compared to the real world (magical protection from pregnancy, readily-available remove disease spells, etc.) and 2) the unpredictability of the world. Haley and Elan jumped into bed together a scant amount of time after acknowledging their feelings for each other, and so did Roy and Celia for that matter.

I've seen it argued that this just shows the characters as being skanky or something, but it makes perfect sense within context of the world as presented: these were adults that were spending adult time together in a world where they could die or get seperated the next day, which is exactly what happened. No, I don't see virginity or the lack-thereof as being that big of an issue within the OotS universe.

[Ted The Bug]

I dont think there's been anything in the comic to hint at Haley being anything but human, I suspect the big secret was the father sub-plot.

Thank you! There is no real evidence to show that she isn't human. Remember when Blind Pete says "Ian and Mia's girl"? He doesn't act as if one of her parents wasn't human.

[Timberboar]

Thank you! There is no real evidence to show that she isn't human. Remember when Blind Pete says "Ian and Mia's girl"? He doesn't act as if one of her parents wasn't human.

Ian and Mia?

Mia... Mia... MIA... Missing in Action... Absentee mother... succubus!

Got it! Sabine is Haley's mother, and Blind Pete wouldn't know on account of the change person affect.

[The Rose Dragon]

Ian and Mia?

Mia... Mia... MIA... Missing in Action... Absentee mother... succubus!

Got it! Sabine is Haley's mother, and Blind Pete wouldn't know on account of the change person affect.

That was the flimsiest justification for an epileptic tree I've ever heard of.

I'd like to subscribe to your newsletter.

[Fish]

"...a redhead."

Of course, if you believe she's an aasimar, maybe that's why she dyes her hair red.

[Smiling Knight]

It's not going to be "But wait! What was the unrevealed difference between Haley and Sabine?" after the story has ended, it's already been stated in War and XPs. If you got to the end without an answer to that question, you weren't paying attention to the War and XPs commentary.

I have War and XPs right in front of me, and I can't find where The Giant answers that quetion. He does state that Haley is just as unready for a romantic relationship as Elan, and contrasts them to Roy and Celia, who are both confident. The only thing I can remember sort of like that is in Dungeon Crawlin' Fools, where it is stated that Haley is jealous of Sabine because she and Nale are so obviously "together."

[David Argall]

Darn you, sir, darn you! I was thinking "single", though I didn't think it was an arranged or forced marriage, more she'd genuinely loved someone, he'd vanished out of her life, so she was still married.
For uber-weirdness, maybe she was married to Xykon!
I concur with the people who say "good".

I think the correct answer is nothing at all. The strip called for her to fail, and it didn't need her to actually reveal a secret in the process. So Haley starts to reveal "it" and is then interrupted.

However, I have also suggested "single" a time or two. We might even have a name as well, Kyran, who is ranked up with Ma in 311. [Kyran sounds fantized female, but it can be given a male pronunciation.] The main point to "single" is that it has considerable plot potential. Anytime at all, Kyran shows up and Haley has a major problem, and problems are what a plot needs. By contrast "Good" and "human" don't seem to have that potential to send the plot head over heels.

[FoE]

By contrast "Good" and "human" don't seem to have that potential to send the plot head over heels.

What would it matter if she wasn't human? Elan might get upset that his GF was actually a doppelganger (or something), but it's not as though she'd be suddenly incapable of saving the world.

[abishur]

That was the flimsiest justification for an epileptic tree I've ever heard of.

I'd like to subscribe to your newsletter.

Don't you remember the Oracle's attempt to not be murdered by Belkar? That was at least as equally flimsy :smallbiggrin:

[The Rose Dragon]

Don't you remember the Oracle's attempt to not be murdered by Belkar? That was at least as equally flimsy :smallbiggrin:

Yes, but that was not an epileptic tree.

[abishur]

Yes, but that was not an epileptic tree.

you know to be honest I don't think I've ever heard the phrase "epileptic tree"

[Pyro]

You have now! :smallbiggrin:

It's from TvTropes, a site that will devour your afternoon with fascinated clicking. If you frequent this forum, get ready to lose a lot of afternoons.

[The_Librarian]

Please do not feed the crack pairings thread.Thank you.

I'll be good now.

I do still think it's "good". Haley could have joined the Order solely to get money - maybe she's even considered selling them out. She's certainly ripped them off (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0129.html) before now, not that she's without motive (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0131.html). Maybe she feels guilty for having joined the Order only to try and swindle them.

[The MunchKING]

Thank you! There is no real evidence to show that she isn't human. Remember when Blind Pete says "Ian and Mia's girl"? He doesn't act as if one of her parents wasn't human.

The again if "Mia" was "That elven ranger that helped the theives Guild out from time to time" or "That Dwarven Lass, what a nice girl." kind of thing, why would he refer to Haley any differently? She's still Ian and Mia's girl. And he still likes Ian and Mia Apperently.

So that one reference isn't enough to prove Haley is all human. Much less when you weigh in all the things that could Pass for Human (Dragons, Feinds, Celestials, etc.) with thier own powers/spells. (which would explain the lack of obvious physical inhumman traits) :smallbiggrin:

[Forbiddenwar]

I'll be good now.

I do still think it's "good". Haley could have joined the Order solely to get money - maybe she's even considered selling them out. She's certainly ripped them off (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0129.html) before now, not that she's without motive (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0131.html). Maybe she feels guilty for having joined the Order only to try and swindle them.

I'm with "Good" too, particularly how we see Elan being good, as in the good twin, and we see Haley not being good, swindling the party frequently. Also, in 311, she confesses her fear of not being "good" enough for Elan.

(Also a librarian.)

[Mystic Muse]

of course she's not human!

she's the spawn of a demon combined with a celestial! she doesn't want to call attention to it because she's a race that isn't even supposed to exist!

both a joke and an antiheroes reference

[thepsyker]

I'm with "Good" too, particularly how we see Elan being good, as in the good twin, and we see Haley not being good, swindling the party frequently. Also, in 311, she confesses her fear of not being "good" enough for Elan.

(Also a librarian.)
See, initially I thought "Good" sounded like it might make a lot of sense, too. However, looking back at what she thought before starting to tell the secret that was interrupted, it doesn't seem to fit. She thinks "Geez, we're gonna be here all night at this rate! Oh. Oh, no, it couldn't be THAT, could it? Even V dosen't know that one..." Even ignoring why not being Good would be something she would keep from V, the wording seems weird for that sort of reference. Not being good doesn't seem like something that would be referred to as a "THAT" or "that one," at least IMHO. Some sort of deep dark secret seems like a better fit, and "Yeah, I'm actually Chaotic Neutral" doesn't seem to fit as that sort of secret.

(Studying to be a librarian)

[Krinn]

Uhm, probably someone else already pointed this out, but check this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0468.html).
Particularly panel 9 of second half. Haley has a red dot on her back.
Maybe there were wings out there?:smallsmile:

[Surfing HalfOrc]

My Theory:

She's a copper dragon, or has enough copper dragon blood in her to transform if needed.

Proof? Hah! There is no "proof," just circumstantial evidence:

She says she is a half dragon to Durkon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0131.html). Sometimes the best lies are the truth. No one would believe her if she just says it, they would want proof. (I picked copper just because of her red hair.)

Girard Draketooth (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html) is possibly half dragon too. No proof outside of the name, but if Roy's family name is Greenhilt because of Horace's sword, I don't see why Girard can't be part dragon. While Ian Starshine is probably human through and through, Mia could be anything. We don't know her maiden name, so it's not a huge stretch that Mia might be Girard's daughter.
(It also helps if you've ever seen the gender-bent Haley down in arts and crafts. He's an exact match for Girard, except for the facial tattoo.)

And it ties in as to why Ian Starshine might be on the Western Continent in the first place. He was chasing down some treasure from his wife's side of the family when he ran afoul of Lord Tyrinar. It also makes for an easy tie-in with the Elan/Nale story.

I've seen the aasimar theory before, but while the aasimar here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0193.html) has the same stray hair across her face, her hair in the ponytail is much thicker than Haley's.

I'm certainly open to other theories, but this one is mine, and I like it best. :smallbiggrin:


Uhm, probably someone else already pointed this out, but check this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0468.html).
Particularly panel 9 of second half. Haley has a red dot on her back.
Maybe there were wings out there?:smallsmile:

Nah, that's just her I (Heart) (Gold Piece); "I Love Money" tattoo.

[Mando Knight]

I've seen the aasimar theory before, but while the aasimar here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0193.html) has the same stray hair across her face, her hair in the ponytail is much thicker than Haley's.

Aasimar? I thought that was a lesser angel or a Half-Celestial, given its wings...

[abishur]

Girard Draketooth (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html) is possibly half dragon too. No proof outside of the name, but if Roy's family name is Greenhilt because of Horace's sword, I don't see why Girard can't be part dragon.

Draketooth = Dragon? Are you sure his family didn't just have at thing for the teeth of male ducks?

[thepsyker]

While Ian Starshine is probably human through and through, Mia could be anything. We don't know her maiden name, so it's not a huge stretch that Mia might be Girard's daughter.
The thing is if Mia is where Haley picked up this secret bloodline it would have to be unconnected to why she feels everyone who is good and pure always leaves her as her subconscious uses her mother as an example of those who are good and pure that left.

[Fayd]

Unless...ALERT! CRAZY AND INCORRECT THEORY COMING! ALERT! ...One of Hailey's parents is Aasamir (mother) and the other tiefling (father). (Sidenote: What would that do anyway?)

ANOTHER CRAZY THEORY!
I'm not really a "Rogue." She found some way to get a sneak attack on an archery style ranger and doesn't cast spells to hide it.

DOUBLE YOUR DAILY DOSE OF INSANITY! YAY!

[chiasaur11]

Draketooth = Dragon? Are you sure his family didn't just have at thing for the teeth of male ducks?

Ducks don't have teeth.

You're thinking Roosters.

[warrl]

What if Haley's mother is, oh, a demon who turned good?

She'd be half-demon, and most good creatures would shun her.

But she'd be inclined to be good, so most demons would shun her.

And then somewhere along the way a high-level cleric banished her mother back to whichever realm it is that the demons are from...

[thepsyker]

What if Haley's mother is, oh, a demon who turned good?

She'd be half-demon, and most good creatures would shun her.

But she'd be inclined to be good, so most demons would shun her.

And then somewhere along the way a high-level cleric banished her mother back to whichever realm it is that the demons are from...That doesn't really work, because she seems to feel that her mother left because she wasn't good or pure enough. In that situation she would have been forced to leave.

[Draz74]

Huh. After reading this thread, I have to say "single" (i.e. technically married to Kyran) sounds like the most likely possibility I've ever heard, in years of reading threads speculating on the subject. Funny with all the theories flying around about Haley, how seldom Kyran and Rachel actually get mentioned ...

Though "existent" was a pretty funny idea, and appropriately shocking (as opposed to things like "a virgin" to which Elan would have responded "duh."). :smallbiggrin: