Intimidate rewrite

[vonklaude]

This is something I'm working on. A more focussed use of Intimidate that relates to Burlew's Diplomacy. Note that my homebrew reduces the +s one can have on skills, and thus Will works okay. If you are using standard skill ranks you should use the usual 3.5 Intimidate resist formula.

Intimidate (Cha)
Intimidate is used to instil fear in other creatures, to prevent them interfering in your objectives. Intimidate attempts are resisted with Will saving throws. A character immune to fear can’t be intimidated, nor can non-intelligent creatures.

UNTRAINED
Deter (OC): You can prevent a creature from hindering you—whether or not they are hostile to you. Usually, you can deter only creatures that can see you, but where you have an appropriate Profession skill, you may be able to apply deterrence through a proxy.
You don’t make a check until your target feels inclined to resist intimidation. Your check sets the DC for the target’s Will saving throw, which they make if they feel inclined to resist, in order to do so. If they fail their saving throw, they must avoid hindering you, including avoiding making attacks against you or hindering any of your plans that they are aware of. If you are intimidating a group, make one check for the entire group.
The effect ends 1d6 × 10 minutes after if you (or your proxy) leave their presence. Your target receives a new save if you harm them or their allies. Once the effect ends, your target’s attitude toward you shifts to unfriendly, or if normally unfriendly, to hostile.
You don’t automatically know the outcome of their save: so if your target beats the DC you set they may try to conceal it in order to frustrate your efforts. If you are present when they make their save, a Sense Motive check against their Bluff can tell you the outcome. Action = 1 minute × targets
TRAINED
Demoralise (OC): You can demoralise one creature that can see you. Your check sets the DC for the target’s Will saving throw, which they must make or become shaken. Shaken creatures take a –2 penalty on attack rolls, ability checks, and saving throws. The effect lasts until the end of your next turn.
Fear effects are cumulative: if a shaken creature is made shaken again, they become frightened. Frightened creatures must flee from the source of their fear. If they are further shaken, they may become panicked, and then cowering. Action = 1 standard
Threaten (per technique): You can voluntarily take a penalty on your Intimidate check in order to deter targets more quickly. Action = 1 full-round × targets
RETRIES
Not until you improve your chances.

Intimidate modifier Condition
+4 size For each size category you or your proxy is larger than your target
+4 circumstance For each multiple of levels or HD you and your allies outnumber your target and their allies by
–10 circumstance For making a quick Intimidate attempt

Target’s Will save modifier Condition
+4 size For each size category target is larger than you, or your proxy
+4 circumstance For each multiple of levels or HD target and their allies outnumber you and your allies by
Var. Any modifiers against fear or mental compulsion

-vk

[Zeta Kai]

This is pretty cool. I like how it changes the meaning of Intimidate to make it easier to understand & use. I don't think that Intimidate is nearly as abuseable or badly-written as Diplomacy was, so the demand for such a significant fix is limited. Is there any way that you could take a creature's Strength into account in this system?

Also, for the modifiers, I would apply a modifier to either the Intimidate roll or the Willpower save's DC, but not both, as that's confusing, & could lead to doubling up on modifiers in excess of what's really appropriate. I say that the save DC should only be modified by bonuses against fear, because that's on their end, so to speak. Evey other modifier should adjust the roll, IMO.

[Surrealistik]

I've always felt the higher of Strength or Charisma should apply to Intimidate checks.

[Stormthorn]

I've always felt the higher of Strength or Charisma should apply to Intimidate checks.

Seconded. fill fill fill the character minimum

[Mando Knight]

I've always felt the higher of Strength or Charisma should apply to Intimidate checks.

And then have a feat to add both. :smalltongue:

[Stormthorn]

And then have a feat to add both. :smalltongue:

Hell ya! :smallcool:

[TSED]

I think size categories should be ignored in certain situations. The halfling mafia demanding payments or they'll end your family in a painful manner, for example.

[vonklaude]

This is pretty cool. I like how it changes the meaning of Intimidate to make it easier to understand & use. I don't think that Intimidate is nearly as abuseable or badly-written as Diplomacy was, so the demand for such a significant fix is limited.

Thank you :smallbiggrin: In standard 3.5 Intimidate can make a creature 'friendly' to you. When the skill was used, my players felt unsure what to expect. For awhile they just expected to use it as a sort of surrogate Diplomacy! As a DM, I wanted Intimidate to be clearly different from Diplomacy, and very much about making a creature feel afraid enough to act differently: that lead to deter.

BTW what do you think of removing the residual effect--that creatures become unfriendly or hostile once they stop being intimidated? Someone pointed out elsewhere that Intimidate doesn't have to always be crude threats: it could include reminding someone of a danger they are in, or impressing someone with your presence and determination.


Is there any way that you could take a creature's Strength into account in this system?

A question that counting Strength raises is how much one wants to include things that make you more threatening? For instance, a foe may have more reason to fear a high-level Wizard than a high-level Fighter, but the Wizard will not ordinarily have the higher Strength.

Instead I would advocate treating Charisma as most relevant because it is your ability to impress upon a foe the threat you (or whatever danger you are appealing to) represents. A high-level Wizard who appears very unsure of herself may seem less threatening than a supremely confident lower-level Bard.


I would apply a modifier to either the Intimidate roll or the Willpower save's DC, but not both, as that's confusing, & could lead to doubling up on modifiers in excess of what's really appropriate. I say that the save DC should only be modified by bonuses against fear, because that's on their end, so to speak. Evey other modifier should adjust the roll, IMO.

You raise a good point. I'll do some work on that.


I think size categories should be ignored in certain situations. The halfling mafia demanding payments or they'll end your family in a painful manner, for example.

I agree with that. In the 3.5 Rules Compendium, the only listed modifiers on Intimidate are for size and modifiers against fear. Like you, I felt that the halfling mafia might overcome the size thing... with numbers! Hence I added numbers. Basically, I added things that seemed to me unaffected by your ability to communicate the danger you represent: i.e. things that are visible and easily counted by a foe.

-vk