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View Full Version : Is 20 feats over 20 levels enough? [3.5 Fighter Base Class]



SilveryCord
2009-07-02, 01:15 PM
Barring shenanigans, fighters quickly and dramatically become weaker than spellcasters as they level. Tome of Battle fixes this in one way, but I wonder if just supercharging the fighter would be enough to bring it back to par in unoptimized games. (If we remove half of the arcane spells. And druids. And divine metamagic. And...)

I give you, 20 feats over 20 levels:
Fighter
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
+1|
+2|
+2|
+0|Bonus Weapon Feat

2nd|
+2|
+3|
+3|
+0|Bonus Feat

3rd|
+3|
+3|
+3|
+1|Strength Training

4th|
+4|
+4|
+4|
+1|Bonus Feat

5th|
+5|
+4|
+4|
+1|Bonus Feat

6th|
+6|
+5|
+5|
+2|Dexterity Training

7th|
+7|
+5|
+5|
+2|Bonus Feat

8th|
+8|
+6|
+6|
+2|Bonus Feat

9th|
+9|
+6|
+6|
+3|Constitution Training

10th|
+10|
+7|
+7|
+3|Bonus Feat

11th|
+11|
+7|
+7|
+3|Bonus Feat

12th|
+12|
+8|
+8|
+4|Ability Boost (Str+2), Ability Boost (Con+1)

13th|
+13|
+8|
+8|
+4|Bonus Feat

14th|
+14|
+9|
+9|
+4|Bonus Feat

15th|
+15|
+9|
+9|
+5|Ability Boost (Dex+2), Ability Boost (Con+1)

16th|
+16|
+10|
+10|
+5|Bonus Feat

17th|
+17|
+10|
+10|
+5|Bonus Feat

18th|
+18|
+11|
+11|
+6|Ability Boost (Any+2)

19th|
+19|
+11|
+11|
+6|Bonus Feat

20th|
+20|
+12|
+12|
+6|Bonus Feat[/table]

Bonus Feats
At first level, a fighter gains either Weapon Focus as a bonus feat for a weapon with which she is already proficient, or a new weapon proficiency feat.
A fighter gains bonus fighter feats drawn from the fighter bonus feat list as she levels up, at second level, and at every level not divisible by three.

Strength Training
Starting at 3rd level, whenever a fighter makes a strength-based skill check, he adds twice his strength modifier instead of adding his strength modifier.

Dexterity Training
Starting at 6th level, whenever a fighter makes a dexterity-based skill check, he adds twice his dexterity modifier instead of adding his dexterity modifier.

Constitution Training
Starting at 9th level, whenever a fighter makes a constitution-based skill check, he adds twice his constitution modifier instead of adding his constitution modifier.

Ability Boost
At 12th level, a fighter's strength is increased by 2.
At 15th level, a fighter's dexterity is increased by 2.
At 12th and 15th level, a fighter's constitution is increased by 1.
At 18th level, a fighter may increase any of his ability scores by 2.

13 feats from this class, 7 from leveling up, that's 20 before your epic career.
(Queue 'Use Tome of Battle' comments. Yes, I do use Tome of Battle, but I just want to see what you guys think about a non-manuever-using fighter could do in a game with magic.)

Lysander
2009-07-02, 01:21 PM
One possibility is to automatically give the fighter the leadership feat, and give them a growing army as they level. It can be assumed that any master of combat and tactics would be able to get their own band of Merry Men.

cfalcon
2009-07-02, 01:27 PM
One problem is how you view strength. A basic test here would be to advance linearly the fighter up to 40th level. I don't mean with epic rules- just flat out hand him 40 character levels like you would the first 20.

Now, can that character beat up a 20th level wizard? How about a 15th level wizard? Do these questions even make sense? Does he contribute more to the party than the other normally leveled folks?

From a perspective of contributing to the success of the party (which I think is the only sensible mechanic in most games, but your mileage may vary), I suspect that you don't need to endlessly pump up the fighter. His core mechanic is the feat, which are by design things that don't scale as well as spells. If we had several feat chains which had good synergy, the fighter could in theory pick several feat chains or just chase one after the other, while a non-fighter would not have such an option. But we don't have that.


Iron Heroes has a fighter-like class that gets a "wildcard" feat. They can just focus themselves for a few minutes, or maybe it's at the start of the day- but what they get is a feat that they can change on a short term basis. I think they eventually get two of these wildcard feats.

SilveryCord
2009-07-02, 01:33 PM
Now, can that character beat up a 20th level wizard?

Nothing can beat up a 20th level wizard, except for an epic wizard.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2009-07-02, 01:50 PM
From a perspective of contributing to the success of the party (which I think is the only sensible mechanic in most games, but your mileage may vary), I suspect that you don't need to endlessly pump up the fighter. His core mechanic is the feat, which are by design things that don't scale as well as spells. If we had several feat chains which had good synergy, the fighter could in theory pick several feat chains or just chase one after the other, while a non-fighter would not have such an option. But we don't have that.

This is the problem. Fighters, no matter how many feats they get, scale linearly. Spells are closer to exponential in scale. This leads to a discrepency of the sort that simply handing out more unscaling abilities can't handle. It's like making a spell-casting class that just gets unbearably huge amounts of 2nd level spells. Sure, it's got a lot of tricks, but none are really up to par.

What would fix the fighter are exponentially scaling feats, so that his abilities grow at a similiar rate to those of the spellcaster.

SilveryCord
2009-07-02, 04:59 PM
This is the problem. Fighters, no matter how many feats they get, scale linearly. Spells are closer to exponential in scale. This leads to a discrepency of the sort that simply handing out more unscaling abilities can't handle. It's like making a spell-casting class that just gets unbearably huge amounts of 2nd level spells. Sure, it's got a lot of tricks, but none are really up to par.

What would fix the fighter are exponentially scaling feats, so that his abilities grow at a similiar rate to those of the spellcaster.
Yeah. I'm in the initial stages of conceiving my own 3.75 (who isn't), and I was considering doing more scaling feats, feats with higher restrictions but higher rewards, etc. This fighter will be able to keep up to date on two feat trees and racial paragon feats (feats that I'm doing that are pretty self explanatory) or a collection of scaling skill or save bonus feats.

Shpadoinkle
2009-07-02, 05:12 PM
Linear Warriors, Quadratic Wizards strikes yet again.

Giving the fighter more feats doesn't "fix" anything. It makes him a ****load more versatile, yeah, but that still doesn't fix anything because all that really does is give him a wider variety of situations where he COULD be useful, but isn't because the wizard is there.

Giving the fighter more feats is like Bill Gates rounding all his paychecks down to the nearest dollar and giving the change to the new guy in the mailroom who's the lowest-paid member of the company. It SORT OF narrows the planet-sized gap of a difference in thier pay, but not enough to matter.

Lord_Zaryn
2009-07-02, 10:06 PM
Jane_Smith (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=108643) Version of the fighter is the best I've seen. I modified it a bit for my campaign but she did a great job.

Draz74
2009-07-02, 10:31 PM
It's like making a spell-casting class that just gets unbearably huge amounts of 2nd level spells. Sure, it's got a lot of tricks, but none are really up to par.

That's a really good way of explaining it!


Jane_Smith (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=108643) Version of the fighter is the best I've seen. I modified it a bit for my campaign but she did a great job.

Bears With Lasers' Fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30692) is, I think, the best one I've seen without majorly changing game mechanics around completely.

GreatWyrmGold
2009-07-03, 07:44 AM
Nothing can beat up a 20th level wizard, except for an epic wizard.

How about...a 20th level druid?

SilveryCord
2009-07-03, 08:56 AM
Jane_Smith (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=108643) Version of the fighter is the best I've seen. I modified it a bit for my campaign but she did a great job.


Bears With Lasers' Fix is, I think, the best one I've seen without majorly changing game mechanics around completely.
Wow, I like both of these a lot. Jane_Smith's "Shift Tactics", sorcerer-style retraining built into the class, is probably the best idea I've seen. the other abilities that give more firepower to the fighter, I'd probably like to see as feats. (which would fit in with this fighter.) (maybe I should give the fighter thirty feats over twenty levels. lmao)


How about...a 20th level druid?
20th druid is not even comparable to 20th wiz. The wizard simply says, "Greater Teleport, Contingency (When I cast Greater Teleport, cast Celerity), Time Stop, Dazed for one round, Unload Quickened Delayed Blast Fireballs and Cloudkill, Greater Teleport away." How does a druid and his furry friend deal with that? ;)

Gnomo
2009-07-03, 09:52 AM
The Feats are not too much, the ability boosts are.

I like Strength Training, but I think it should be a feat and not base it completely out of just 1 Ability Score, that's too abusable, like using a Half-Dragon Lolth-touched Feral Were-bear Mineral Warrior character to make stupidly high Jump checks.

Athletic Training
Your physical power defies the limits.
Prerequisites: Str 13+, Con 13+.
Benefits: Whenever the character makes a strength-based skill check he adds his Constitution modifier.
Special: A fighter can take Athletic Training as a bonus feat.

How do you like it?

SilveryCord
2009-07-03, 10:24 AM
The Feats are not too much, the ability boosts are.

I like Strength Training, but I think it should be a feat and not base it completely out of just 1 Ability Score, that's too abusable, like using a Half-Dragon Lolth-touched Feral Were-bear Mineral Warrior character to make stupidly high Jump checks.

Athletic Training
Your physical power defies the limits.
Prerequisites: Str 13+, Con 13+.
Benefits: Whenever the character makes a strength-based skill check he adds his Constitution modifier.
Special: A fighter can take Athletic Training as a bonus feat.

How do you like it?

Well, yeah, you'd be able to make absurd jump checks. Meanwhile, the equivalent spellcaster is flying. :) I like it as a feat, too, actually (much better than 90% of skill related feats, but still balanced), but I see it as a nice ability for a fighter to have that isn't just giving him *three more* bonus feats. As for the ability boosts--they exist to lower a fighter's necessary portfolio of magic items. The first three bonuses to strength, dex, and con are equivalent to an ability that says "increase your WBL by 12,000", and the any+2 either makes one of the earlier bonuses +4 (which would cost 12,000) or makes another attribute +2 (4,000). For 18th level, these abilities are *not that powerful*

Frosty
2009-07-03, 12:31 PM
Versatility IS power. If you double the feats a Fighter gets, you've just doubled his versatility or more, and that's really all he needs. I personally think one feat a level isn't enough, but that's just argueing over the small details.

Don't compare himt o a wizard, for wizards are not at the balance point we want.

erikun
2009-07-03, 04:43 PM
This link feels necessary:

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0

Read down to the third post, namely "Q: So what exactly is this system measuring? Raw Power? Then why is the Barbarian lower than the Duskblade, when the Barbarian clearly does more damage?
" for an idea of the problems between Fighter and Wizard.

The problem isn't so much that the Fighter gets too few feats - the problem is that the feats he gets aren't always that useful. After all, most "Combat" feats are really just allowing you to do something that the combat section otherwise disallows. Wizards don't care about tripping, or grappling, or bull rushing, but they are options for the Fighter - or would be, if he didn't need to spend all his feats to do any of them.

The two fixes from above look pretty good, mainly because they give the Fighter something, rather than just being bonuses or handing out combat options that he should've had anyways.