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cfalcon
2009-07-02, 01:19 PM
Hey guys, I'm about to start up a game in a custom world I've run before. The land that's generally Asian-themed has two large and philosophically opposed nations- they aren't at war but have been in the past.

Since there are two samurai classes that have appeared in WotC stuff, I decided to use them both.

My notes basically assign the Oriental Adventures Samurai to the northern lands, and the one from Complete Warrior to the southern nation.

So far, so good.


Looking at the Samurai from the OA, I see a class that has a pretty great ability to enhance their weapons, and they also get bonus feats. They have good fort and will saves, and a decent amount of skills- but it looks like a Samurai would have a hard time justifying samurai levels past some point, as even fighter levels offer more frequent bonus feats in greater variety.

(My games have very little class hopping normally- I allow up to three classes, and no more than one prestige class)

So- can anyone think of some good flavorful Samurai abilities that would go with a more meditative, internally focused philosophy? Hopefully ones appropriate to higher levels. I don't know if the game will get there, but if the 20th level is a little more exciting, that would be cool.


Now, on the other side of things- the samurai from the Complete Warrior has a bunch of great flavorful abilities, and has them pretty frequently, but the class doesn't actually seem as *strong* as the one from the OA. I don't want to give them the ability to enhance their weapons (and I already have a a houserule applied that will give them the ability to focus on either two weapon fighting with the katana and wakizashi or the ability to wield their katana with two hands as if it were a "mechanically proper" two handed weapon, upping the base damage so that they don't suffer from not using a scimitar or a greatsword), but I would like a little something extra for them.


Any links, ideas, etc. would be appreciated. Thank you in advance!

Djinn_in_Tonic
2009-07-02, 01:56 PM
*prepares for "Tome of Battle is not the answer" barrage that someone is certain to counter with*

That said, I'd recommend substituting these competing classes with the Warblade, and showing the national difference with the selected schools.

Diamond Mind is a fast, iajutsu-style samurai.
Stone Dragon is a powerful, take-no-prisioners sort.
Iron Heart is a true paragon of combat bladework.
Shadow Hand is an almost supernatural samurai, almost ninja-like in his expertise of speed and stealth (yes, this still can be done honorably).
Devoted Spirit is a devoutly religious samurai, fighting for gods and honor above a mere lord.
White Raven is the battlefield commander, resolute in the face of overwhelming odds.
Tiger Claw is the katana/wakashasi wielding samurai who rends his opponents apart in the heat of battle.
Setting Sun is the samurai who, for all his masterful sword techniques, is just as apable without a blade as he is with it.
Desert Wind is the samurai who channels his spiritual energy and his fury in battle into physical flames to sear his opponents.

Then, if you want ability differences, replace the Warblade's class features with a few of those from the already existing Samurai classes.

Alternatively, just give the existing Samurai classes a Maneuver progression...they're both weak enough that you could probably hand them the Warblade's progression without overpowering them at all.

Death
2009-07-02, 01:59 PM
Give them some monk abilities. Like immunity to poison and disease.

afroakuma
2009-07-02, 02:00 PM
You could also look at my homebrew samurai class (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90342), which is not ToB but got decent reception.

cfalcon
2009-07-02, 02:55 PM
*prepares for "Tome of Battle is not the answer" barrage that someone is certain to counter with*

Well, it's not *my* answer. Remember my game has normal character classes involved in it (Fighter, Barbarian, Ranger, Paladin are all expected to be viable and close), and that the most powerful builds aren't allowed by virtue of the multi-classing restriction.


That said, I'd recommend substituting these competing classes with the Warblade, and showing the national difference with the selected schools.

If I were to go with this idea (which is not bad) I would probably line them up as follows:

Northern, more meditative and internally focussed: Diamond Mind, Iron Heart, Devoted Spirit, White Raven, Setting Sun

Southern, more martial and outwardly focussed: Iron Heart, Desert Wind, Tiger Claw, White Raven, Stone Dragon.

I would probably leave out Shadow Hand, as their shadow stepping invisible tricks are not what I would want thematically.

That being said, I'm not going to do this.


Then, if you want ability differences, replace the Warblade's class features with a few of those from the already existing Samurai classes.

Well, I sort of want the classes to feel different, yet related.


Alternatively, just give the existing Samurai classes a Maneuver progression...they're both weak enough that you could probably hand them the Warblade's progression without overpowering them at all.

Compared to a standard barbarian or fighter? I don't buy it.


My issues with 9Swords:
1- Obsoletes a ton of content.
2- Requires extensive flavor re-work to "bring back" the original classes
3- Mechanically much more complex
4- Not intuitive to create a character, with the expected retraining of old feats.
5- Ease of generation failure if certain feats are not selected.
6- Makes everyone magic.
7- Confuses the phrase "martial technique"- do you mean like, an actual real technique, or the flame thing I prepare once and have to flourish to get back?


It's not appropriate for the power level or the game I'm running. I could, if I was out of other options, give a partial progression to one instead of feats- but I'm not looking for that much reworking. Also note that if I did this I would have to rework:

Fighter
Monk
Barbarian
Ranger
Ninja
Probably Rogue and Scout
Most martial prestige classes
Paladin
Dark Knight (a custom class I have, LN or LE, similar to but not the mirror of the paladin)

I would be much more likely to have a Tome of Battle interested player as a special one-off, which I might have to come up with some way of balancing that wouldn't be heavy handed. If I had a bunch of friends who wanted Tome of Battle, I would for sure include it and just assume that the heroes and a very select few NPCs are flat out on a more enlightened (and more powerful) path than most of the world. But instead I have absolutely NO players who have mentioned it at all.


As to the homebrew class:

This is much closer to what I am looking for. The ki pool mechanic I'm not thrilled with (I have the same problem with the Complete Adventure Ninja) because it's a mana pool that can't cast spells and needs a full night to recover- but it's not a bad mechanic. And I do like the idea of a samurai having ki powers.

Swift Stride is exactly the kind of move I'm looking for, though I may rename it to imply that it's not so much swift as it is derived from a mastery of form.

Ki Masterstroke would combine poorly with any weapon that is x3 or x4- assuming that you don't intend samurai to wield scythes or picks or screwdrivers or mercurial washingboards or whatever absurd weapon gets a x4 to crit, you should consider adding that this is something done with a Katana (assuming you intend him to wield a katana).

Ki Ripples is something I'm much happier with having as a daily limit sort of power. The big problem is that if the PCs walk into a room of bad guys, I don't want the samurai doing "resource math" to decide if he should blow his ki now, or wait until later- that doesn't strike me as the sort of thing a real samurai would have ever done. For the wizard, I'm fine with that sort of thinking.

The augment ability I really like. It's not clear if you intend this to be in addition to or instead of actually having a magical weapon- I assume the first of those. Those abilities definitely make him able to customize his weapon for the fight at hand, and I may try something similar.


Good job so far guys!

Fiendish_Dire_Moose
2009-07-02, 03:25 PM
6- Makes everyone magic.


T.T

No, Ranger spells, paladin spells, being angry granting insane bonuses to strength and toughness, makes everyone magic.
Granted you get fire damage out of it, but "it makes everyone magic" is the single most retarded argument against ToB ever. Everyone needs to be super natural, or there's no reason to pick Average Joe. (That having been said, ToB has never had a power off set in my games, in fact it makes everyone about equal when manuever progression is added.)
The thing about D&D is a straight fighter with magic weapons that only add a bonus to hit and damage will never work out. They have to have typed damage, fire damage, cole, acid, etc. If they don't they become useless. Cleave won't save you against a Yuan-Ti Anathema. So, a fighter eventually has to become magic anyway, otherwise he'll just die.
Surround yourself in magic, learn to cast spells, or die. That is how D&D works. Magic has to come into play eventually, ToB just makes it work for a melee class.
Yet you like the idea of a samurai having Ki powers? How does that not make them magic? Keep your arguments consistent man.

Now, I'm not going to tell you to use ToB because obviously you dislike the work on your part that comes with it. But it sounds like you just want to make a monk/samurai hybrid, and that would pretty much solve your problem.
Though I'm not really sure why you want to mess with them, OA Samurai is nothing more than a fighter, and the CW Samurai is just a pre-tooled fighter.

Vourge
2009-07-02, 03:36 PM
I actually don't think ki counts as magic because it represents more of an inner focus that could arguably be mundane. I like the idea of a monk/samurai hybrid for the north and a fighter (or similar)/samurai hybrid for the south

Fiendish_Dire_Moose
2009-07-02, 03:39 PM
I actually don't think ki counts as magic because it represents more of an inner focus that could arguably be mundane. I like the idea of a monk/samurai hybrid for the north and a fighter (or similar)/samurai hybrid for the south

No, Weapons Focus, is an inner focus that it mundane. Ki, is super natural flow, as evidenced by the monk's Ki Strike being a super natural attack.
Ki is is about as mundane as psionics.

Vourge
2009-07-02, 03:51 PM
The Monk's ki abilities are achieved through extreme training and discipline, not through study of any mystical or magical abilities. If they are "supernatural" it's only because they've trained so much that it seems supernatural (Danica from the cleric quintet is a good example of this) or that they've tapped into a hidden power that all people naturally have. It's not even close to psionics, which is a developed power that occurs in some individuals or all in certain races.

cfalcon
2009-07-02, 04:10 PM
No, Ranger spells, paladin spells, being angry granting insane bonuses to strength and toughness, makes everyone magic.

Rangers and Paladins are sold as casters. The 9Swords stuff clearly is a kind of magic- everything you do is a supernatural effect of some kind, unlike the regular set of rules. Rangers and Paladins spend a lot of their time in combat making fully normal melee attacks- a 9Swords built character will generally use his maneuvers as his bread and butter attacks each round.


Granted you get fire damage out of it, but "it makes everyone magic" is the single most retarded argument against ToB ever.

And vaguely disguised ad-hominem to boot. This is wonderful!

If you put 9Swords in, you obviously want to pick those guys over fighters, barbarians, etc. From instantly making allies charge or move (and making the narrative for the smooth progression of one round *extremely* complex), to actually shooting blasts of fire, to shadowstepping around, you clearly have plenty of actions that have no real world equivalent, and have no historical or martial justification. Many of the rules are meant to approximate or be similar to real world actions- the 9Swords characters are supernatural fighters, and including them leaves no option for a player who is not interested in that.


Everyone needs to be super natural, or there's no reason to pick Average Joe.

Not being supernatural doesn't mean that you are average. If that's what you need to enjoy a character, well, I don't have anything to say to that.


(That having been said, ToB has never had a power off set in my games, in fact it makes everyone about equal when manuever progression is added.)

You really find no balance issues between a straight Warblade and a straight like, fighter or barbarian?


The thing about D&D is a straight fighter with magic weapons that only add a bonus to hit and damage will never work out. They have to have typed damage, fire damage, cole, acid, etc. If they don't they become useless.

Those are magic items, and a sword that erupts in fire is a lot less "magical" than granting your allies or yourself instant movement and other such abilities.


Surround yourself in magic, learn to cast spells, or die. That is how D&D works. Magic has to come into play eventually, ToB just makes it work for a melee class.

Characters in my games have other options against casters other than simply becoming them. It should be plain that I'm not asking for advice on how to build a character, rather I'm running a game.


Yet you like the idea of a samurai having Ki powers? How does that not make them magic? Keep your arguments consistent man.

It does make them magic. But not very. But it doesn't make *everyone* magic, which is my complaint.


Now, I'm not going to tell you to use ToB because obviously you dislike the work on your part that comes with it.

...but you WILL come in and post about it. Look, I came in here, stated what I wanted (a couple high level abilities to throw at the samurai classes, so that the guy who wants to run a samurai has an interesting and cool decision in front of him), and I have a statistically surprising amount of responses about 9Swords, given that I didn't bring it up at all and it doesn't logically follow from anything in my first post.

Tome of Battle is a book that my players don't have, some won't understand, and uses three different resource systems belonging to classes with dubious roles and ahistorical names (the Crusader doesn't go on a Crusade, and Warblade is two nouns put together). It's not an issue of "work" it's an issue of "what everyone involved wants". If I want to bring up "work", I have hundreds of pages of story on this campaign world talking about how every class fits in, how each society treats heroes, all the holy days, who has done what, and all of it is with character classes you've *heard of*. What I listed above where my general problems with 9Swords. But I'm not re-imagining my game world from the ground up to include anime style combat, wire-walking inspired fictional maneuvers, and the other things included in 9Swords.



But it sounds like you just want to make a monk/samurai hybrid, and that would pretty much solve your problem.

Well, the northern guys believe in the mind- theirs and the minds of others. They believe that the world only exists to allow a medium for beings to relate to one another, though obviously it's a big place and plenty have different feelings as to what the purpose is- so I'm planning on giving them the OA Samurai, as they imprint their beliefs and emotions onto their blades. But as you point out, after that point, they are mostly a fighter, so I'm looking for some ability that could be spun as justifying their worldview.


The southern guys believe in the world- the mind is a tool to work with the world, manipulate it. I'm planning on giving them the CW Samurai, as they seem more focussed on controlling their enemies and engaging them. And they have a few more feats that explicitly state that they have mastery of weapons forms, which I also think goes with what I'm looking for.

I want some ability for them that can also be viewed as justifying their worldview that the world is real and that mind is not as real.

cfalcon
2009-07-02, 04:18 PM
I actually don't think ki counts as magic because it represents more of an inner focus that could arguably be mundane.

It could, but some of the monk's abilities are clearly outside the realm of normal: speaking to any living creature, empty body, abundant step. Ki itself could be viewed as mundane or magical, however.


I like the idea of a monk/samurai hybrid for the north and a fighter (or similar)/samurai hybrid for the south

Well I don't want to step on the monk too much thematically, and the monk has the unarmed progression, whereas I definitely want them both to be using at least a katana and possibly also a wakizashi. Whatever I give to the northern guy could definitely be monk-ish, however.

Vourge
2009-07-02, 04:28 PM
Okay, how about this: a really big (though sort of hidden) part of the OA Samurai class is the skill iajutsu focus, which lets you do extra damage based on your level against a flat-footed opponent after you draw your weapon. So take it away from the OA class and give it to the CW Samurai class, which get quick draw anyway, and it will then give them an interesting way to play. Then, for the OA Samurai class, give them some of the ki abilities from the monk class, but for their katana and wakizashi instead of their fists, and maybe some other monk/ninja abilities

Ouranos
2009-07-02, 04:41 PM
If you want to make them more distinct, and want one martially-minded and one more meditative and spiritual, you could take a toned-back gestalt character approach. Instead of best of both worlds progression on two classes at once, combine the samurai with a main feature or two from another class.

Example: meditative samurai could get the monk's ac bonus from wisdom and the outright AC bonus from leveling they get, possibly the speed boost as well. The martial ones instead of the typical samurai bonus feat progression would get a fighter's bonus feat progression, as well as tower shield profficiency or some additional features. Samurai train extensively in weapons, for example, and could perhaps get the ranger's combat style feature?

Partysan
2009-07-02, 04:57 PM
The 9Swords stuff clearly is a kind of magic- everything you do is a supernatural effect of some kind, unlike the regular set of rules.
(...)
From instantly making allies charge or move (and making the narrative for the smooth progression of one round *extremely* complex), to actually shooting blasts of fire, to shadowstepping around, you clearly have plenty of actions that have no real world equivalent, and have no historical or martial justification. Many of the rules are meant to approximate or be similar to real world actions- the 9Swords characters are supernatural fighters, and including them leaves no option for a player who is not interested in that.

Sorry, but no. There are 3 disciplines (Shadow Hand, Desert Wind and Devoted Spirit) that include supernatural abilities. Warblades do not get any of them. A Warblade is a complete mundane character, whose abilities are no more supernatural than a barbarian's rage, some fighter bonus feats or simply the fact, that people can be hit by 10 sword strikes and still stand.
But system issues aside, if you don't like it, the don't use it, but do it for the right reasons. I do not aree with it needing "extensive reflavoring" (even if you want to reflavor it, it is not that much to do" and, more important, ToB characters are not a "generation failure if certain feats are not selected."! ToB characters are actually more easy to build competently than Fighters, which is why they are regarded as more powerful. An optimized Fighter can compete with a Warblade in power (but not in versatality, which is why ToB classes are more fun to play), but is much easier to screw up building.

Gerbah
2009-07-02, 07:12 PM
The Samurai classes are kinda meek, to be sure. An idea I had a while ago was, while not giving them ToB maneuvers, but to give them some of the abilities that the Warblade gets, such as the bonus to initiative and intelligence (it is Int, right?) bonuses to critical confirmations and such. As for other options, maybe look at giving them the abilities of the Knight from PHBII. That could make for two distinct yet similar factions. The Warblade styled Samurai would focus on arms mastery, while the Knight-themed ones would be more about honor and defense.