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Shinizak
2009-07-02, 01:22 PM
Zombies in particular, How does one go about running undead effectively? The cleric is an anti-zombie tank, and they only get to move OR attack, what does one do to relieve them of the joke status that they hold to the DnD world?

woodenbandman
2009-07-02, 01:26 PM
Don't use zombies. Use just about any other thing.

2hd Zombies definitely ARE a joke. That gargantuan walking explosion is definitely NOT a joke.

hamishspence
2009-07-02, 01:27 PM
Variants, mostly- fast, tough, etc are in Libris Mortis.

If it only has to look like a zombie- Corpse Creature (BoVD) and Ju-Ju Zombie (Unapproachable East) retain most or all of the power of the living creature.

and Zombie Dragons (Draconomicon) are also fairly powerful for their CR.

Toliudar
2009-07-02, 01:29 PM
I had a DM who liked to have other, more dangerous undead disguised to look like zombies, mixed in with a crowd of zombies. It made it harder to dismiss the danger of the horde of undead coming at you.

evisiron
2009-07-02, 01:33 PM
Have a true horde: hundreds, nay, THOUSANDS of walking corpses!

Hordes and potential infection are the only real things that make zombies dangerous in any setting.

Make sure you can run combat pretty speedily though before you try something like this.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-07-02, 01:42 PM
1:Zombies suck. Other than Hydras and some Dragons, the slow movement and attacking is too bad to bother with. If you must use them, Charge a lot and keep the PCs locked down whenever possible.

2:Hordes of undead suck. If you're anywhere close to CR appropriate, a horde is going to have no chance v the PCs due to the massive damage and AC the PCs get, along with the proliferation of special abilities and the way Turning scales. A few tough undead are better than a thousand weak ones.

3:Turning will make someone sad. Either the PC has maxed it, in which case it's no-save, just die, to any undead you can reasonably oppose them with, or the PC hasn't, in which case it's a wasted action. Since this Cleric seems to have maxed it, you can't use undead with any reliability.

Sinfire Titan
2009-07-02, 01:45 PM
Have a true horde: hundreds, nay, THOUSANDS of walking corpses!

Hordes and potential infection are the only real things that make zombies dangerous in any setting.

Make sure you can run combat pretty speedily though before you try something like this.

Too bad there's no official variant for Zombies to have an infection chance.




@OP: Use the Corpsecrafter feat tree, specifically the Destructive Retribution feat, on a group of zombified rats or similar low-CR enemies. The tradition is to get a Commoner with the Infested With Chickens flaw, a Dread Necromancer of at least 8th level, and a staff of Plague of Undeath (Heroes of Horror) to make a mini-horde of Bomb-obs.

You then left them loose in a city.

mostlyharmful
2009-07-02, 01:59 PM
Restat them to keep their HS and what-have-you, add some big plusses, get rid of the stupid slowness thing, give them a spawn/infection effect, let them take run actions.... let them advance in level and whatever as they rack up 'bites' and then turn them loose on an urban area BEFORE the PCs get there.

Edit: Oh, and remember that the scariest bit of a post appocalyptic zombigeddon is what it does to the survivors. Watch 24 days later and the worst nastiest bit is the evil Doctor.

Sinfire Titan
2009-07-02, 02:30 PM
Restat them to keep their HS and what-have-you, add some big plusses, get rid of the stupid slowness thing, give them a spawn/infection effect, let them take run actions.... let them advance in level and whatever as they rack up 'bites' and then turn them loose on an urban area BEFORE the PCs get there.

Edit: Oh, and remember that the scariest bit of a post appocalyptic zombigeddon is what it does to the survivors. Watch 28 Days Later and the worst nastiest bit is the evil Doctor.

Fixed that for you. 24 Days Later is a fanfic crossover of 24 and 28 Days Later. Probably. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MindScrew)

mostlyharmful
2009-07-02, 02:32 PM
Fixed that for you. 24 Days Later is a fanfic crossover of 24 and 28 Days Later. Probably. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MindScrew)

My brain work good. It no brokened from much much driving lesson... gah.

Draxonicar
2009-07-02, 02:39 PM
I had a DM who liked to have other, more dangerous undead disguised to look like zombies, mixed in with a crowd of zombies. It made it harder to dismiss the danger of the horde of undead coming at you.

I'm seeing a distinct resemblance to L4D here..hiding in a large mass of weak ones are strong ones..

The_D
2009-07-02, 02:42 PM
Too bad there's no official variant for Zombies to have an infection chance.

The 3.5 Expedition to Castle Ravenloft contains rules for zombie infection.

DC13 Fort save if an infected creature drops below 0 HP it rises as a zombie 1d4+1 rounds later unless treated. Can only be cured with Remove Disease or Remove Curse.

Devils_Advocate
2009-07-02, 03:36 PM
I agree that for effectively running undead, you definitely shouldn't use normal zombies.

Because normal zombies shamble; they don't run effectively at all. :smalltongue:

AvatarZero
2009-07-02, 04:58 PM
Don't forget that zombies can move and attack in the same turn by performing a partial charge. (same as a 4e charge, move your speed and attack as a standard action)

Also, don't forget that zombies have DR/slashing, which makes them fairly resistant to slings and arrows.

Also, don't forget that most players really enjoy defeating wave after wave of enemies, even if they're weak enemies. Being able to turn large groups of enemies isn't a bad thing.

I'm with a lot of the other posters here. Copy a zombie movie and have your zombies be threatening by virtue of numbers. Make sure they use grapple attacks to stop people from just running away. Zombies can make attacks of opportunity, so put a horde of them between your players and something important. Most importantly, zombies will never be truly threatening if your players can shoot and move back, so drop zombies on players when they don't have room to manoeuvre.

If you think zombies need a rule change to be interesting, consider the mob rules from Cityscape (pg. 124).

RagnaroksChosen
2009-07-02, 07:28 PM
even though they can only attack or move they still get a AoO.. Give them Reach weapons as they can slam when they get close and they get alot more deadly.


Also large groups are fun.. I can't think of a single time any of the groups i've run zombies with have had a bad time...

Even the one with 2 clerics, a paladin, favored soul, and an undead hunting ranger.
Lots of fun...

Though my players tend to cringe when they here the words skeleton.

quick_comment
2009-07-02, 08:00 PM
Simple; you desecrate the area and have the necromancer controlling the zombies cast mass fly, mass haste, mass greater magic fang.

FMArthur
2009-07-02, 08:13 PM
If I'm running a battle involving undead, usually it'll start out with the players fighting a Boneclaw or other undead of appropriate CR. Then round by round, the lesser undead come crawling through every hole and shambling out from every allyway to locate the people fighting. So they start off in a fight-to-win battle, then it slowly progresses into a fight-to-survive battle. The thing that makes it work is that they are aware of the impending threat but only actually recognize the magnitude of the danger they are in when they are on the edge of death. Three different groups I've DMed for have fallen into this trap, with no TPKs but plenty of fear and panic each time.

Obviously this only works a couple times with one group, but it's one kind of encounter that REALLY works with undead themes and makes them scary.

awa
2009-07-03, 03:59 PM
The ravenous template from a dragon mag (i forget which one) makes even zombies quite dangerous but its honestly probably too infectious for most games. I agree the mob is the best way to do hordes of weak undead. otherwise zombies are two annoying at low levels they have to many hp so it takes forever to kill them but their so inaccurate that unless you are extremely low level they almost cant hit you and then you cant fight them in large numbers anyway at high enough level that you can drop one reliable in one hit their even less likely to be able to damage you.

One thing i have had some luck with is by treating the zombies like a wildfire or an avalanche where the pcs goal is to escape them not attempt to fight them.
This of course only works if the pcs are relatively weak.

AslanCross
2009-07-03, 05:25 PM
What level are you running this for, and what books do you have? We might be able to give more precise help if we knew what kind of undead to run.

Yora
2009-07-03, 05:40 PM
What about Zombie Mobs? I never have tried them out against players, but I had the stats prepared and it looked pretty neat to me.

Berserk Monk
2009-07-03, 05:49 PM
People don't control undead. Undead control undead.

Tar Palantir
2009-07-03, 06:47 PM
A spinoff of the Desecrate mentioned earlier, force the PCs to fight in an environment that plays to undead strengths. Narrow catacombs filled with traps that spray inhaled poison, zombies that drag PCs underwater to drown; the possibilities are endless.

Shinizak
2009-07-03, 07:10 PM
What level are you running this for, and what books do you have? We might be able to give more precise help if we knew what kind of undead to run.

Its a party of 5, each level 3

I have access to:

PHB: 3.0
DMG: 3.0/3.5
MM1: 3.0/ (sometimes) 3.5

Complete Adventurer
Epic level handbook
Monster Manual 2
Monster Manual 3

Sorcery & steam (a 3rd party book).

And the scoop for the adventure is that undead have been spontaneously rising from the grave under no-ones control, undead that already exist have gone AWOL from their masters, and intelligent undead have fallen off the map entirely. Necromacers are ****ting bricks, kingdoms are blaming necromancers, and the gods are unusually complacent with it all.

AslanCross
2009-07-03, 07:47 PM
You could use the following instead of zombies:

-Ghouls
-Ghasts
-Boneclaw (MM3, kind of dangerous since it's CR 5, large and has crazy reach, but 5 PCs should be able to handle it)

All of them are faster and more dangerous than garden-variety zombies. The only point zombies have is being literal meat shields. They're slow moving and hence likely not to break formation when they advance. They can slow down PCs and keep them from mobbing the Boneclaw while it whips PCs with its extending claws.

Shinizak
2009-07-03, 10:19 PM
Oh, I also have:

The BoVD

And any books that I don't have I have on PDF. (though I'd really rather not use those if I don't have to).

Just in case that changes anything.

Coidzor
2009-07-04, 04:44 AM
What's the source on that mob template/approach?

PanNarrans
2009-07-04, 02:03 PM
I love ghouls; they're fast and infectious, by RAW. If you want to make them more zombie-like, you could remove their intelligence score. If you want them to be scarier you could drastically shorten the incubation rate of Ghoul Fever, and have those that die of it rise immediately.

Sinfire Titan
2009-07-04, 02:31 PM
What's the source on that mob template/approach?

DMG 2 has the Mob template.

Darkfire
2009-07-04, 03:04 PM
Take a look at Oakspar's great low level Zombie campaign (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=7285316&postcount=98). You'll want post 106 for the stat alterations although following it through to it's conclusion (190) is worthwhile.

Korivan
2009-07-04, 03:59 PM
Have a true horde: hundreds, nay, THOUSANDS of walking corpses!

Hordes and potential infection are the only real things that make zombies dangerous in any setting.

Make sure you can run combat pretty speedily though before you try something like this.

Almost no point in using hords. They can't climb worth a d#@* so any assult on a fortress is pointless. Heck, if there is thousands, have the casters start making makeshift battlements with wall spells.