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Shinizak
2009-07-02, 10:36 PM
I was looking through the recent oots archive and was reading Xykon's one sided conversation with V, and I began thinking, how do you make something truly "powerful?" obviously once a generic wizard is out of spells, but what does a truly powerful wizard do when he's out of spells? More importantly, how do I apply this to a game? When does a simple number figure become a powerful terrifying force?

Gorbash
2009-07-02, 10:39 PM
but what does a truly powerful wizard do when he's out of spells?

He who runs away, lives to fight another day. :smallwink:

But in my experience, that doesn't really happen. I have a 13th lvl Transmuter with, I think, 42 spells a day, it's impossible to have that many encounters. Not to mention I have spells at my disposal that can end encounters in one round! :smallbiggrin:

waterpenguin43
2009-07-02, 10:42 PM
On the rare occasion when a truly powerful wizard runs out of spells, he leaves the job to the rest of the party and then prepares them again. If he does not have a party, he flees to the best of his ability, a truly powerful wizard knows when to run away and is prepared to do so. What makes a wizard a truly terrifying force is logic and preparing ahead of time, sure you can just lauch fireball, cone of cold, chain lightning and the rest, but combining preperation, cleverness and logic makes you far more powerful. A meteor swarm launched randomly into a crowd is not as powerful as acid fog then wall of ice sealing away escape routes, and an empowered magic missile cast by a level 5 is more powerful than an maximized flaming sphere cast by a level 7.

Oblivious
2009-07-02, 10:47 PM
Power is influence and influence is inherently fleeting. What I believe Xykon means is that all tools have a use, and you shouldn't pick out one particular tool (such as arcane magic) as the uber-tool, confusing this tool with the concept of power itself.

In game terms, this would probably mean that versatility is supremely desirable and you should press every advantage you have.

nightwyrm
2009-07-02, 11:06 PM
When a wizard runs out of spells, he planeshifts to a plane where time runs 14400 times faster, spends a day resting and preparing new spells, then go back to the fight where only a round has passed.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-07-03, 12:15 AM
When a wizard runs out of spells, he planeshifts to a plane where time runs 14400 times faster, spends a day resting and preparing new spells, then go back to the fight where only a round has passed.

This.

For the lower levels, there's Rope Trick. If the Wizard has run out of spells, then any other spellcasters in the party are likely in the same situation, and everyone is probably down at least a few HP. The whole party can just climb into a nice hiding place, rest up, and continue the adventure the following day.

boomwolf
2009-07-03, 12:37 AM
Well, as long that plane of x14400 is actually safe, you're fine, but it might not be yaknow-and then you are royally screwed.
As for rope tricks-the bad guys only need to make exit impossible/very hard/real bad idea and your "ideal" hiding spot also becomes your tomb.

A REAL powerful being is aware that everything they do (especially magics) can be countered by opponents (actually or by using something that makes it useless/more harmful to you.) and learn to have as big as possible set of options. a smart wizard should even consider giving up some casting uberness in order to grant him combat power, or skill-based abilities to complement to times magic don't work-and with a smart DM, these might drop in any moment. (AMF, disjunction/counterspell/spell turning/etc, silly high SR, anti-caster specialized opponents.)

Magic=\=power.
True power is beyond magic's capabilities.
True power is mass magic, plus the ability to stand your ground without it as well. be it army, melee skills, sneaky skills, talking skills whatever-if no magic does not equal dead-you got power.

Lycanthromancer
2009-07-03, 01:20 AM
True power is magic used intelligently. If you use every ounce of cleverness and preparation you have, Magic. Beats. Everything. It doesn't matter if there's magic immunity, or AMFs.

There's only one exclusion to that: DM fiat.

Otherwise, yes. Magic itself is power, but intelligently-used magic beats all (including magic used as a sledgehammer, as was evidenced by V's beatdown).

TSED
2009-07-03, 01:42 AM
Well, as long that plane of x14400 is actually safe, you're fine, but it might not be yaknow-and then you are royally screwed.
As for rope tricks-the bad guys only need to make exit impossible/very hard/real bad idea and your "ideal" hiding spot also becomes your tomb.




Whaaaat?

The only POSSIBLE counter to that requires epic levels. Spell Stowaway: Teleportation.


Because otherwise you have exactly one round to respond. And if you already acted that round? Good luck.

The guy flits out of existence and you need to:

1) Recognize what spell that was (can be exceedingly difficult)
2) Somehow plot a response in ONE ACTION
3) And are not even assured of his return in the exact same spot he left.


There is no counter to that except Spell Stowawaying along for the ride, unless you use a homebrew immediate-action-teleport-stowaway as well. And even then, you're suddenly in a DEMIPLANE THAT WIZARD CREATED HIMSELF. He's still at the advantage.

Aharon
2009-07-03, 02:04 AM
Well, if you're of a high enough level to cast genesis, your opponents should have access to contingency and dimensional lock. So while you are indeed able to have your day of rest, the bad guy prevented your coming back. You get your rest - he does, too. Aaand you have to find his new hiding place afterwards, as he probably has a backup lair.

Gnaeus
2009-07-03, 08:02 AM
Leaving aside plane shift and rope trick, the powerful wizard (or any caster really) has a staff, and half a dozen wands of 3rd and 4th level spells chosen for maximum utility so that he can prepare other, different 3rd and 4th level spells, and some scrolls for emergencies. So aside from Gorbash's 42 spells (which sounds entirely reasonable for a 13th level specialist wizard or cleric) he probably has 100 or so charges in different spell trigger items.

Now, admittedly, he would hate to blow through his carefully collected horde of items, but I can only think that any day that requires casting over 100 spells will probably have good loot and xp.

If it is REALLY something he is worried about, he will pick up a reserve feat, and be able to blast endlessly, but he is almost always better just picking up an extra wand.

JeminiZero
2009-07-03, 08:38 AM
If he is high enough level (20 HD), he shapechanges into a Ha-Naga (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Ha-Naga), and suddenly gains casting as a level 21 Sorcerer. Or any other creature that has Spell-casting ability, because the poor wording of shapechange does not explicitly exclude that. Even better, he can rechange his shape (and renew his spells) every round as a swift action.

If he is paranoid enough, he won't plane shift back to his demiplane, he would have been astral projecting out from there in the first place. And the demiplane would be utterly inaccessible (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116975), and heavily fortified should you actually try and follow.

Riffington
2009-07-03, 09:08 AM
The only POSSIBLE counter to that requires epic levels. Spell Stowaway: Teleportation.

From the point of view of the being you're fighting, perhaps. But it's unsafe for different reasons.

Genesis requires 5k experience. Subplanes with that kind of timeshifting are incredibly useful. And, because of the nature of the timeflow, the wizard can only spend a very small amount of Prime Time on the subplane. Therefore, any such subplane will attract all kinds of powerful creatures who want a rest spot and would rather not spend 5k experience to create their own.
Now that you have some rich/powerful creatures who may use a subplane to rest (meaning they go there specifically when their defenses are lowest), there is a chance that some enterprising soul may set traps for them...

Irreverent Fool
2009-07-03, 09:19 AM
Wizards gain Scribe Scroll as a bonus feat. Reading a scroll is a standard action, pulling the exact scroll you want out of a handy haversack is a move action. I see no reason a wizard would ever run out of spells.

And even if they do, as has been said, they always have some method of running away. Pretty much the same thing the fighter does when his weapons and armor get destroyed.


From the point of view of the being you're fighting, perhaps. But it's unsafe for different reasons.

Genesis requires 5k experience. Subplanes with that kind of timeshifting are incredibly useful. And, because of the nature of the timeflow, the wizard can only spend a very small amount of Prime Time on the subplane. Therefore, any such subplane will attract all kinds of powerful creatures who want a rest spot and would rather not spend 5k experience to create their own.
Now that you have some rich/powerful creatures who may use a subplane to rest (meaning they go there specifically when their defenses are lowest), there is a chance that some enterprising soul may set traps for them...

This also means that 'renting it out' can be very profitable. Really though, 5k experience is a drop in the bucket and easily restored via a thought bottle.

This is an excellent way for a DM to deal with the wizard who has made such a hidey-hole though.

obnoxious
sig

Bracket
2009-07-03, 09:33 AM
When a wizard runs out of spells, he planeshifts to a plane where time runs 14400 times faster, spends a day resting and preparing new spells, then go back to the fight where only a round has passed.

And if he's dimensional anchored? :smallamused:

TSED
2009-07-03, 09:37 AM
And if he's dimensional anchored? :smallamused:

Dispel checks. Quickened if need be.

And some one mentioned the astral projections, which is even better for this.


Now, I really really really doubt many-to-any wizards would actually make such a plane, but if they did they would basically be undefeatable. Foresight up, and make the teleportation a contingency so you can spend your action when you want to go dispelling a dimensional anchor. Then do a quickened anticipate teleport if they DO have stowaway or something, I don't know, I'm not an int40 wizard or anything. I don't even LIKE high level play!

nightwyrm
2009-07-03, 09:45 AM
Basically, according to the rules of D&D, you beat powerful magic casters by:

a) Using a better magic caster

b) DM fiat

Tiki Snakes
2009-07-03, 09:54 AM
In answer to the OP and in reference to the above;
If a TRULY powerful wizard runs out of spells, then he has already won. Otherwise he would not have let the situation devlop to the point where he'd run out in the first place.

Power is Control.

If you're argument of power revolves around your foolproof escape plan, then you are already planning for your own defeat. All it takes is for your opposite number to be an equally epic spellcaster, scry up your capabilities ahead of time, and research a 'Seal Sub-plane spell, and your planar-shifting wizard has spent 5k on his own tomb. He's dead in a couple of days, from natural causes. :)

Indon
2009-07-03, 11:26 AM
True power is Epic Diplomancy. Why be a universe-crafting super-wizard when you can have universe-crafting super-wizards as your loving and devoted followers?

Evil the Cat
2009-07-03, 11:27 AM
A truly powerful cast doesn't just have spells. He has powerful items. Staves, wands, scrolls, and other various items alone can make a character devastating. He also has contingency plans. A "truly powerful enemy" will have a planned method of escape, backup, whatever. You engage him in epic battle and somehow run him out of spells, he responds by pulling out a powerful extraplanar being who owes him a few favors, or he retreats through an awesome array of magical traps that wont affect him, or uses a scroll or a staff. Really, with enough power, time, and resources, the spells themselves become secondary.

Sure, I'd rather use my own spells than charges from a wand or staff, scrolls, or other limited use items, but that doesn't mean I won't have them. And really, 1 Iron flask with a Pit-Fiend in it can change the battle dynamics in a hurry; toss in an Efreeti bottle, and a mirror of opposition, and things get even crazier.

Look at how few times throughout the story where Xykon has had to cast any spells at all. And when he did engage in a direct battle, he won because of his pre-placed symbols and his allies.

Flickerdart
2009-07-03, 11:34 AM
True power is Epic Diplomancy. Why be a universe-crafting super-wizard when you can have universe-crafting super-wizards as your loving and devoted followers?
Because Fanatical is a Mind-Affecting effect, blocked by Mind Blank. They'll be excellent chums of yours, but not brainwashed minions.

Tiki Snakes
2009-07-03, 11:39 AM
Because Fanatical is a Mind-Affecting effect, blocked by Mind Blank. They'll be excellent chums of yours, but not brainwashed minions.

Exactly the point, I think you'll find. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ThePowerOfFriendship) ;)

quick_comment
2009-07-03, 11:41 AM
You beat other wizards by diplomancing mystra to block the wizard's access to the weave

boomwolf
2009-07-03, 12:05 PM
Your own demiplane where time runs a hell lot faster is, while handy, a big source of trouble.

Heck, spend a few days out of it-and some freaky caster that wandered in might have turned the place into something completely different, making it as fatal within as without. even worse-they other might have enough epic magic to seal the exit-so you are stuck there forever.

Rope trick? set an orb of annihilation around the exit, everyone inside ain't coming out anytime soon.

Nigh-infinite spells? endless counterspell works like a charm. spell turning can get it even nastier when your own super-powered attack spells hit you in the face. buffs? no problem-disjunction. when all else fails, go hide in a "magic deadzone" and make it a melee-combat, you might be poor at it-but if he trusts magic alone he has no chance.

You people must realize that no amount of magic equals power. it can ALL be countered, and by lower magic at most times.
True power, real power, does not comes form magic-it comes from the source of magic.
True power comes from the mind, the smartest one wins. even smart is an idiotic way (AKA barbarians) can be power, as long you use your powers in a better way then your opponent you will win a battle of equal-resources.
The way to beat every single challenge-is simply finding the weakspot of that challange, even if it means running like hell, getting stronger, and coming back. the mere realisation that you are too weak, is power by itself.

Therefor power=statistic analysis.

Indon
2009-07-03, 12:19 PM
Exactly the point, I think you'll find. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ThePowerOfFriendship) ;)

"Your overconfidence is your weakness."

"Your faith in your friends is yours."

"Oh, also: the fifteen Wizards teleporting into this room and spamming debuffs on you. That's also a weakness."

"...Crap."

quick_comment
2009-07-03, 12:48 PM
"Your overconfidence is your weakness."

"Your faith in your friends is yours."

"Oh, also: the fifteen Wizards teleporting into this room and spamming debuffs on you. That's also a weakness."

"...Crap."

Celerity. Contingent Spell fires: Favor of the Martyr. Cast Timestop. Cast several split shivering rays, all around the room.

Time resumes, 15 paralyzed wizards on the ground.

Indon
2009-07-03, 01:35 PM
Celerity. Contingent Spell fires: Favor of the Martyr. Cast Timestop. Cast several split shivering rays, all around the room.

Time resumes, 15 paralyzed wizards on the ground.

The other wizards' contingent spells fire off. Other miscellaneous wizard-twinkery occurs, the first wizard is quite dead before he can actually do any of that.

You don't seem to understand the principle of having a strategy that completely encompasses a lesser strategy while having additional power and options.

742
2009-07-03, 01:40 PM
heres how a powerful wizard reacts to running out of spells:

you may notice that i didnt type anything there; its because they dont unless either they are surrounded by epic fighter/spellthieves with twf and pierce magical protection or the DM just says so.