4th Ed. explosives, Should I?

[HMS Invincible]

Someone in my campaign wants to get his hands on explosives, how should I do this? Since they don't really exist, how good should it be? If it is too good, he'll just keep using it. How should I limit him from using it too much? Moreover, what are some good house rules for this?
I was thinking something along the lines of a mundane "delayed blast fireball" as a base.

[Gralamin]

Someone in my campaign wants to get his hands on explosives, how should I do this? Since they don't really exist, how good should it be? If it is too good, he'll just keep using it. How should I limit him from using it too much? Moreover, what are some good house rules for this?
I was thinking something along the lines of a mundane "delayed blast fireball" as a base.

If this is 4th Edition, tell him that would be an Alchemy item, which comes with their own restrictions. Use Alchemical Fire or something to base it off.

[AgentPaper]

Page 42 is of course the answer. Use the damage expressions there, and you can use the skill DCs in making them as well. If one of your players really likes making and using the bombs, you could make a Paragon path and/or multiclass feat chain based off of them. (which would be awesome)

[Oracle_Hunter]

Page 42 is of course the answer. Use the damage expressions there, and you can use the skill DCs in making them as well. If one of your players really likes making and using the bombs, you could make a Paragon path and/or multiclass feat chain based off of them. (which would be awesome)
QFT

Do make sure you're using the Errata'd (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/updates) table, though - the numbers work much better.

Oh, and for cost, you should treat them as Magic Items of the appropriate level-spread; make the Explosion attack an Encounter power, and use the Normal damage column. If you want to get fancy, make the Explosives At-Will, but no more than X per day - the PC can make more during an Extended Rest once he has created his "Bomber's Kit" :smallcool:

[Mattarias, King.]

The only response to "Explosions" and "should I?" In the same question is a resounding YES.

Everything. Is better. With explosions.

...But other than that, the only ideas I had for that were preemptively ninjaed.

But, I think it might be cool to have rules for "batches" of smaller bombs, instead of one big one. Like, arrows compared to ballista ammo.

[Kurald Galain]

Someone in my campaign wants to get his hands on explosives, how should I do this?

Give him the Clockwork Bomb item from the Eberron Player's Guide.

Or, ask him to multiclass to wizard, take a power swap feat for Fireball, and refluff.

An issue might be that neither does all that much damage to enemies, really.

[Tengu_temp]

An issue might be that neither does all that much damage to enemies, really.

Yeah, in 4e explosions leave the target comically covered in soot.

The problem here is that, due to balance reasons I assume, there are very few powers/items that target an area and deal good damage at the same time, while explosives should do both. Maybe use highly overleveled Alchemist's Fire? Blastpatch could work as mines, as well.

[HMS Invincible]

Give him the Clockwork Bomb item from the Eberron Player's Guide.

Or, ask him to multiclass to wizard, take a power swap feat for Fireball, and refluff.

An issue might be that neither does all that much damage to enemies, really.

I can't find that, it's not in the character builder.

The alchemical items are really cool if a bit underpowered. I think for simplicity sake, I'll just give out those items as is. However, I think I will go and make a gestalt alchemical item so I can make flashbangs. Are alchemical items weak as is?

[Kurald Galain]

Are alchemical items weak as is?

Yes.

This is by design: items are written so as never to upstage actual character powers. However, they overdid that, and the result is that (mechanically, at least) the vast majority of consumable items aren't worth the money. Even if you get them for free, you'll generally not end up using them ever, because using one of your powers is more effective.

The two obvious exceptions are healing potions and elf tonic (clarity potions). There are probably a handful of others.

[Hal]

Someone in my campaign wants to get his hands on explosives, how should I do this? Since they don't really exist, how good should it be? If it is too good, he'll just keep using it. How should I limit him from using it too much? Moreover, what are some good house rules for this?
I was thinking something along the lines of a mundane "delayed blast fireball" as a base.

Does he want this for combat, or is he planning on blasting away plot doors with C4?

[oxybe]

i would recommend basing this off what they did in the adventurer's vault.

alchemist fire's allows a "modification" to be done at a higher cost, turning it from a simple tossed vial to an exploding arrow, though it raises the level (and thus the cost) of the item.

by following this methodology, once could create new modifications that allows a larger bust radius, ignores some resistance, half damage is non-typed, higher attack bonus, ect...

for example a burst 2 alchemist's fire that punches through defenses could be worth 30 or 40 gp per use. for a little more you can turn it into ammunition for your bow/crossbow.

it could require some testing but this might solve your issue.

[shadzar]

Thats not a bad idea. Just blow 4th edition up and then everyone would be safe from it. :smallbiggrin:


Oil can be found in the errata for purchase. Alchemist Fire also exists, so explosives are already in the game, but probably not on the level one may be thinking if they are looking for some kind of "bomb" to throw around like dynamite or something like that.

[oxybe]

Thats not a bad idea. Just blow 4th edition up and then everyone would be safe from it. :smallbiggrin:

but those poor souls would only be left with turd edition, i mean third edition :smalltongue::smallbiggrin:

[Sebastian]

but those poor souls would only be left with turd edition, i mean third edition :smalltongue::smallbiggrin:

Bah, there are a lot of much better games than both of them around, some of those are even free.

[shadzar]

but those poor souls would only be left with turd edition, i mean third edition :smalltongue::smallbiggrin:

D&D existed before WotC, and there are plenty of explosives to throw around in older editions. A bit of comparison of the new items and some older ones, would likely yield decent items to be used. Bamsmacks, may not have the punch for blowing things up, but a M-80 isn't something to be laughed at either in D&D terms.

It has been a question in each edition whether or not to introduce explosives (black or smoke powder), and it always come down to the group and the DM and how accessible the DM wants to make them if they do exist. Most times they are exotic and hard to make, some they are quite common.

The question just remains on two points to consider.

How safe are they to use without hurting oneself?

How much of it do you want to have in your world?

[oxybe]

i would say alchemy is as safe as magic to those who know how to use it. alchemy is magic for the mundane in my worlds, and both are usually developed simultaneously, even if accidentally.

a mage mixing substances trying to create a ritual might accidentally create a volatile liquid, or even just some inebriated dwarf playing around his moonshine still and fire, could result in alchemist's fire (or the very least, a crude molotov) being created.

a "blast patch" is just a land mine... applying pressure causes a break/release of a liquid which causes a violent reaction, endothermic or exothermic.

1 - safety : for "newbies" using it, it would be dangerous, but then again so would magic. i would imagine though, that purchased alchemical objects come with instructions on their use and since most characters have some weapons training also so they would know the basics on how to use tossed items.

the newbie alchemist might end up blow off a finger if he's overzealous, but i would also imagine the newbie wizard might do the same.

2 - use : this will vary from setting to setting, but one should remember that gunpower has been document to exist in the real world since at least the mid-800's in china, if only in crude form. even in the 1200's cannons & firecrackers have documented use & manufacture. most of D&D willingly ignores it and other alchemical & medicinal advances to emphasize magic over mundane in their fantasy worlds.

while this is something some settings take into consideration, others may not. IMO, if powerful magic exists, powerful alchemy might just end up a byproduct of it. or an entirely separate entity.

[MartinHarper]

I don't see why d&d explosives should be very damaging or affect a huge area. If it's made by mixing troll's blood and sheep's urine under the light of the full moon, then its physical properties can be whatever the DM and players think is appropriate.


Does he want this for combat, or is he planning on blasting away plot doors with C4?

I think that's a good question. One of my PCs wanted explosives, and we agreed on some explosive material that, once exposed to the air, reacted explosively some minutes later. Because that doesn't compete with combat powers, you can make it do whatever feels right.

[shadzar]

So I guess it comes down to us waiting to see what the intended use for them is before anyone would know how to add them correctly to fit in the game where that yet do not exist, and for the edition as well where they yet do not exist.

Converting AF into a non-damaging thing to help blast away rubble wouldn't be to hard, but making a grenade to throw at enemies may be beyond the scope someone may want to introduce into there campaign depending on the setting and style of play the world is built around.

:smallconfused:

[oxybe]

So I guess it comes down to us waiting to see what the intended use for them is before anyone would know how to add them correctly to fit in the game where that yet do not exist, and for the edition as well where they yet do not exist.

Converting AF into a non-damaging thing to help blast away rubble wouldn't be to hard, but making a grenade to throw at enemies may be beyond the scope someone may want to introduce into there campaign depending on the setting and style of play the world is built around.

:smallconfused:

pretty much.

like all homebrew stuff, it's talk to the GM, find the intent and try to model it based off a similar existing effect if possible.