Controlling the gate, so what?

[ABB]

A thought occurs to me:

Someone (Xykon, IFCC, LG, etc) gains control of a gate.

So what?

I mean, ALL they can do is unleash the snarl. That means the end of everything, everywhere, even the gods and such.

So, someone like the Xykon gains control of a gate and demands the world surrender or else.

"Or else what?" the world replies.

"Or else I unleash the snarl!" Xykon answers.

"Well, all it can do is kill us, and frankly we'd rather die that live under an ass hole like you, you 2 bit skeletor clone. And you die to, BTW."

"Uh, reddy, got any plans for this contingency? I know you're always making plans for things, right? Right?"

[derfenrirwolv]

You don't just DIE. You're UNMADE. The snarl doesn't just kill you, it kills your SOUL.

Redcloak at least is willing to go that far because then (sod spoiler)

the world will be remade, and this time the dark one can add imput from the start

[Devonix]

Also controlling the gates would allow you to also just open the prison a bit to let out a snarl claw or so. You could close it back up when wnatever you want to destroy is gone.

Its not breaking the cage. its moving the doors so that you can open and close them at your whim

[Beorn080]

I think what they are planning is controlled releases of the Snarl's energy. Open the gate a touch with a Planar Gate to the upper planes surrounding it. That sort of thing.

[Zevox]

Devonix has it right.

Incidentally, there's no danger of Xykon ever gaining control of a gate. *SoD spoilers*
If the ritual he and Redcloak have planned ever succeeds, the Dark One will gain control of it, not Xykon. And Xykon isn't powerful enough to try and wrest control of it from a god.
Zevox

[Porthos]

There's also the idea that someone might be able to "diffuse" the power of the Snarl and harness that energy into unspeakable goals. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0278.html)

A "controlled" Snarl would be an unspeakable terror upon the world. And the heavens (and hells), for that matter.

[alegollama]

I think what they are planning is controlled releases of the Snarl's energy.
Right, a bit like opening a shook-up can of soda. If you just do it recklessly, you get a bunch of goo in your face. But if you control it, you can get someone else wet :smallamused:

[V'icternus]

Right, a bit like opening a shook-up can of soda. If you just do it recklessly, you get a bunch of goo in your face. But if you control it, you can get someone else wet :smallamused:

...I think that's the best analogy for it I've ever heard.

[waterpenguin43]

I think Xykon's theory is: Xykon thinks that he could somehow tap into Snarl's power and use it to his will, that or, since Snarl would be grateful for it's release, would at least let him exist.

[Zevox]

I think Xykon's theory is: Xykon thinks that he could somehow tap into Snarl's power and use it to his will, that or, since Snarl would be grateful for it's release, would at least let him exist.
No. *Start of Darkness spoilers*
Xykon thinks he'll be able to control the Snarl, completely. As such, he doesn't think there will be any danger to him at all should the ritual completely succeed - he'll have a creature so powerful it can obliterate gods in under 6 seconds under his complete control. This is because he jumped to conclusions when Redcloak was explaining The PlanTM to him, and Redcloak was fine with him deceiving himself, since it convinced him to help.

Of course, that isn't the case. The Snarl itself cannot be controlled, just the gate - where it is, when it opens, and how much it opens. And Xykon won't even get that, since the Dark One will be the one in control of the gate, as I posted previously.
Zevox

[waterpenguin43]

No. *Start of Darkness spoilers*
Xykon thinks he'll be able to control the Snarl, completely. As such, he doesn't think there will be any danger to him at all should the ritual completely succeed - he'll have a creature so powerful it can obliterate gods in under 6 seconds under his complete control. This is because he jumped to conclusions when Redcloak was explaining The PlanTM to him, and Redcloak was fine with him deceiving himself, since it convinced him to help.

Of course, that isn't the case. The Snarl itself cannot be controlled, just the gate - where it is, when it opens, and how much it opens. And Xykon won't even get that, since the Dark One will be the one in control of the gate, as I posted previously.
Zevox

Oh, sorry, I haven't read Start of Darkness.

[HZ514]

Right, a bit like opening a shook-up can of soda. If you just do it recklessly, you get a bunch of goo in your face. But if you control it, you can get someone else wet :smallamused:

Except, in this case, the carbonation is a deicidal abomination. So after you get someone else wet, it's coming for you. :smalltongue:

[Bunnywolf]

Right, a bit like opening a shook-up can of soda. If you just do it recklessly, you get a bunch of goo in your face. But if you control it, you can get someone else wet :smallamused:

So - to use the soda metaphor - Xykon wants Snarl Lite, not Snarl Classic? :smallbiggrin:

[veti]

No. *Start of Darkness spoilers*
Of course, that isn't the case. The Snarl itself cannot be controlled, just the gate - where it is, when it opens, and how much it opens. And Xykon won't even get that, since the Dark One will be the one in control of the gate, as I posted previously.
Zevox

Err... you seem awfully sure you know what'll happen. Considering it's never been done. Oh sure, the Snarl has been free before, but that was Before. Since then it's had several millennia locked away - time to grow, time to brood, time to plan for this moment...

Redcloak himself is making huge assumptions about what will happen - even the Dark One probably isn't completely sure - and Xykon's guess might be as good as his, for all we know. Or more likely, they've all got it completely about face.

[Zevox]

Err... you seem awfully sure you know what'll happen. Considering it's never been done. Oh sure, the Snarl has been free before, but that was Before. Since then it's had several millennia locked away - time to grow, time to brood, time to plan for this moment...

Redcloak himself is making huge assumptions about what will happen - even the Dark One probably isn't completely sure - and Xykon's guess might be as good as his, for all we know. Or more likely, they've all got it completely about face.
And what possible reason do we have to doubt that the Dark One's ritual with regards to the gates isn't going to work as intended? He's a god, and the gates were designed by mortals. The Snarl is the only volatile factor in the matter, and it's kept sealed by the gate itself. It can't do a damn thing. And judging by the descriptions Shojo gave of it, it isn't particularly intelligent - just an aimless killing machine. It can't even recognize patterns, so how could you expect it to be capable of planning anything?

Zevox

[Morquard]

And Shojo became an expert on god-killing abominations born out of divine hatred, exactly when? :)

He may think he knows it all, but it doesn't have to be the truth. He said himself the Order of the Scribble pretty much figured it out as they went along.
Doesn't mean they can't be wrong.

Even if the gods themself told them this... THEY could have a wrong perception of the Snarl.
Think about it, it has just been born, it was a baby. What do babys do? They cry and flail their limbs around. Now give that baby counless arms with claws able to rip through a god...

The snarl might have grown up into something completely else by now.

SOD
Xykon thinks he can control the gates and/or snarl when it works. I think he says "Thats great, you can rule the world with it, and you only have to use it once or twice and obliterate a city, after that you can rule the rest of the world with the threat of releasing it again" (or something like that, don't have SOD here right now).

Of course thats not how Redcloak's plan works, once the ritual is complete the Dark One gets control of the gates, but his plan is pretty much the same.
He wants to release the snarl once or twice, but on the gods (a picture shows the snarl slaughtering Odin), and then force the other gods into agreeing to his terms (goblin equality, or probably superiority... I mean he has the BFG now, so why settle for equality when you can get more)

However in the last 30 years Xykon might have figured that out, and maybe found a way that HE will be the one controling the gate after all, with the Dark One and Redcloak only finding out AFTER it happened.

[Mystic Muse]

And Shojo became an expert on god-killing abominations born out of divine hatred, exactly when? :)

He may think he knows it all, but it doesn't have to be the truth. He said himself the Order of the Scribble pretty much figured it out as they went along.
Doesn't mean they can't be wrong.

Even if the gods themself told them this... THEY could have a wrong perception of the Snarl.
Think about it, it has just been born, it was a baby. What do babys do? They cry and flail their limbs around. Now give that baby counless arms with claws able to rip through a god...

The snarl might have grown up into something completely else by now.

SOD
Xykon thinks he can control the gates and/or snarl when it works. I think he says "Thats great, you can rule the world with it, and you only have to use it once or twice and obliterate a city, after that you can rule the rest of the world with the threat of releasing it again" (or something like that, don't have SOD here right now).

Of course thats not how Redcloak's plan works, once the ritual is complete the Dark One gets control of the gates, but his plan is pretty much the same.
He wants to release the snarl once or twice, but on the gods (a picture shows the snarl slaughtering Odin), and then force the other gods into agreeing to his terms (goblin equality, or probably superiority... I mean he has the BFG now, so why settle for equality when you can get more)

However in the last 30 years Xykon might have figured that out, and maybe found a way that HE will be the one controling the gate after all, with the Dark One and Redcloak only finding out AFTER it happened.

I think a god is more than capable of telling that a mortal is planning treachery

[Vargtass]

And what possible reason do we have to doubt that the Dark One's ritual with regards to the gates isn't going to work as intended? He's a god, and the gates were designed by mortals. The Snarl is the only volatile factor in the matter, and it's kept sealed by the gate itself. It can't do a damn thing. And judging by the descriptions Shojo gave of it, it isn't particularly intelligent - just an aimless killing machine. It can't even recognize patterns, so how could you expect it to be capable of planning anything?

Zevox

There are some hints that the Snarl can evolve. It did before! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0273.html) (last row of panels)

It does not behave exactly as expected... (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0545.html)(second panel)

And something is surprising here... (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0659.html)(tenth panel)

Last, about Burningfields comment: The gods would not care if they thought the treason was impossible to pull off. On the other hand, they obviously do not know about The Plan, and that might actually work. I think perhaps the gods' perception is limited, at least with regards to Snarl business.

I'm not saying this is proof, but I would not rule out the possibility that Redcloak's information is somehow outdated, or not completely understood.

[Morquard]

I think a god is more than capable of telling that a mortal is planning treachery
Why? Except the "Because he's a god".
So far the god's track record hasn't been that awesome. And yes, the Dark One might notice "Oh crap Xykon is casting a different spell than he's supposed to", but then it may be too late.
Whats he gonna do if Xykon uses the snarls first round to unmake the Dark One? Because, well that would be what I would be doing (remember for this scenario he would be aware of the plan)

How could he find out? Hmm... Redcloak did tell his early goblin minions. He told his brother. His brother is/was a zombie in Xykons army. I'm sure as an epic level necromancer lich he knows a few tricks to make a zombie spill its secrets. :)
He was also gone for 4 or 5 years before the attack on Durokan... he might have researched the necessary spell in that time.

[Ancalagon]

For the record: They could not control the snarl, only the location of the gates!

And right now, as the snarl does not seem to be a) willing to come out or b) aware of the rifts in the first place, that ability would be next to useless.

"Oh, a swirly-snarl-gate? And the snarl does not come out? So... let's abandon this plane, move to another and oh, let's kill The Dark One for trying this, yes?"

[Larkspur]

'm sure as an epic level necromancer lich he knows a few tricks to make a zombie spill its secrets. :)

You would think so, but apparently not (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0095.html).

Either Xykon is badly underestimating Redcloak (because it really would be idiotic for Redcloak to assist in the Plan as Xykon understands it), or Xykon knows what the real Plan is and has been bluffing this whole time to keep Redcloak cooperative, or- and this is my favorite possibility- it's actually a double bluff; Xykon has seen through the Plan and has a way to modify the spell to bring the gate under his control, and Redcloak has anticipated this and has a counterspell prepared. Which would be a bit Death Note, but pretty awesome.

It all comes down to whether they despise each other so much that they're blinded to the other's intelligence. Xykon might be, although it would be unusually stupid of him. Redcloak seems to err on the side of assuming Xykon will be more sensible than Xykon actually is, so I'm guessing he has a contingency plan in case Xykon sees through him.


And right now, as the snarl does not seem to be a) willing to come out or b) aware of the rifts in the first place, that ability would be next to useless.

Good point. Given that the person who noticed this was Redcloak, it's kind of strange that Team Evil are not completely freaking out about it. For Xykon it's not such a big problem, since he's in the gate business mostly for kicks anyway and once he controls one he can go destroy the last one to wake up the Snarl, but Redcloak can't afford that kind of delay, because once they actually succeed in activating a gate and Xykon notices who's controlling it, he has the life expectancy of a snowball in Death Valley.

[Zevox]

And Shojo became an expert on god-killing abominations born out of divine hatred, exactly when? :)
Considering his story matches up perfectly with the one Redcloak gave in SoD, and he got it from the Dark One, who got it from the very gods who lived through the Snarl's first rampage, I'd be inclined to think that the Sapphire Guard acquired their knowledge of it - divine revelation or just damn good divination and guesswork - it's accurate.


However in the last 30 years Xykon might have figured that out, and maybe found a way that HE will be the one controling the gate after all, with the Dark One and Redcloak only finding out AFTER it happened.
How? There is no way he could figure that out. The only beings in the multiverse who know that are the Dark One and Redcloak themselves - only they know the full of the Plan and the rituals necessary to complete it. How in the hells could Xykon ever even deduce he was deceived on that matter - particularly when it was his own self-deception via jumping to conclusions, not one invented by Redcloak - and even if he did, how on earth could he come up with a way to alter a ritual he'll never know anything specific about until the time comes to use it? That just makes no sense.


How could he find out? Hmm... Redcloak did tell his early goblin minions.
Evidence please. That is not in the comic, nor in Start of Darkness, that I have been able to find.


He told his brother. His brother is/was a zombie in Xykons army. I'm sure as an epic level necromancer lich he knows a few tricks to make a zombie spill its secrets. :)
Not possible. Zombies are mindless - they are completely incapable of knowing anything, much less telling anyone anything. The only way to speak with Right-Eye now short of resurrecting him is the spell Speak with Dead. Which is a divine spell. Which means Xykon needs Redcloak's help to do it. And which would also require destroying Right-Eye's zombie, as it doesn't work on the Undead.

It's also ridiculous to think that Right-Eye would tell Xykon about his self-deception in the first place. He hates him. So much that he was going to try and kill him just before he died, remember? He'd never willingly do anything that might benefit Xykon.


There are some hints that the Snarl can evolve. It did before! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0273.html) (last row of panels)

It does not behave exactly as expected... (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0545.html)(second panel)

And something is surprising here... (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0659.html)(tenth panel)
On the first, it was changing while the gods were still arguing and it was still in the process of being created. That phase of it's existence has long since ended.

On the second, we don't know why it hasn't tried reaching out through the rifts yet, but it seems far more likely that it cannot, as Redcloak speculates, not that it is choosing not to. It has nothing to gain by sitting quiet in there.

On the third, that may be nothing more than Blackwing being easily mesmerized by pretty lights for all we know. Certainly it needn't indicate the Snarl is anything but what we've been told. And to suggest that it in any way indicates the Dark One's plan will not function as intended is a ridiculous leap of logic.
Zevox

[SadisticFishing]

Xykon thinks he can gain control of the Snarl.

He can't.

[Ancalagon]

Yes, and that the snarl apparently has no interest in coming out (no pun intended), The Plan is quite... flawed.

But the plan is even more flawed, I think (I just realise this)... the spoiler is there since it refers to The Plan, as outlined in SoD.

They do not want to control the location of a RIFT, i.e. a breach in the dimensions through which the snarl will reach and unmake everything, but a GATE. A gate, which by definition and design locks the snarl and which only purpose is to PREVENT the Snarl from coming through.

So, to have any effect, Redcloak must a) control one of the gates, b) move the gate to a certain location, and c) find a way to shatter the gate at that given location, so the Snarl can actually reach through. Any volunteers for c)? No? I thought so...

The Dark One surely does not want to be the one who is next to the gate (after shattering it), as those tend to be the first ones that get eaten. Moving the GATE into one of the god's throne rooms and then asking the god "he, want to negotiate about the goblins" and sending someone in, after you received your "no", to smash the gate (while the god still is in the throne room) seems to be a pretty, urks, crude plan.

So, it comes down to this: in the end Xykon and Recloak get to control a missile that can reach any capital city in the world... but without having the codes to actually arm the nuclear warheads.

[Larkspur]

If the gates couldn't be manipulated remotely, Dorukan and Lirian couldn't have assembled them in the first place. I assume they can be opened partway, like a faucet, without giving the Snarl free rein to devour everything in a ten mile radius.

There are definite problems with the Plan, but I doubt this is one of them.

[Forbiddenwar]

Gate? What Gate?:smallwink:

Since this thread is asking why people would want to control the gate, arguing the accuracy of the facts at hand is moot. everyone is planning with the facts they know at the time. In truth, no one knows what will happen when the gates are contolled, or even if they can be contolled, since it never happened before.

Most of these plans were formed in Start of Darkness.


X: thinks he can control the snarl, make it carry his books, destroy countries that don't surrender, etc.

Redcloak has 2 plans
plan A: ritual give control of the Location of the gate to the dark one, who will be able to shift it into the planes where his enemy gods exist. The dark One can then force the other gods to give gobliniods an equal and fair portion of the world and abilities, so they can build a goblin civilization.

Plan B: Ritual fails to work as planned and the world is unmade (not destroyed) Every living thing will be unmade, not killed, and so would cease to exisit, no soul going to another plane, no afterlife. The gods will escape to the higher planes, as before. The threads that make up the world would be released and the Dark One will be able to participate in making the world again, allowing goblinoids a fair chance.

To quote a famous General: "That (Plan B) sounds more like plan F, as in we are all F***ed"

IFCC: we don't know what the IFCC plan is yet, though there are many guesses. 43 minutes, however, is not enough time to perform the ritual that Redcloak is planning, so either they don't know how long it takes, or they are not planning to take control of the gate in the same fashion as the dark one.

We don't know which plan, if any, has a chance in suceeding, although there is a fair amount of evidence showing that Xykon's plan won't succeed. But those are the plans and why they want to contol the gates.

[The Extinguisher]

I thought the plan was

Make goblins equal, or I'll open up a can of whoop god-ass on you and you all die.

I didn't think there was any way to control the gate other than where it opened up.

[JenBurdoo]

Xykon may still win control of a gate even if he doesn't know Redcloak's plan. He charmed the MITD to eat Redcloak if Redcloak ever betrays him.

[Kish]

Xykon may still win control of a gate even if he doesn't know Redcloak's plan. He charmed the MITD to eat Redcloak if Redcloak ever betrays him.

Wouldn't be much of a victory. Redcloak is gone, the Crimson Mantle is gone, Xykon is standing over a gate protecting a rift in the fabric of reality, waiting for another epic-level adventuring party to come and claim it, or for him to obliterate himself out of boredom, whichever happens first.

"So."

"Ayup."

[Ancalagon]

I thought the plan was

Make goblins equal, or I'll open up a can of whoop god-ass on you and you all die.

I didn't think there was any way to control the gate other than where it opened up.

Close, but not exactly:

So far, we only know the plan involves "moving" the gate, deciding where it is. Nothing was said the control will also allow to determine that it also opens - and the current problem I see is: We have an open rift, there is no gate at all anymore, but the Snarl does not come/reach out.
So, the question that presents itself to me is this: What good is a gate you can move, but without a god-killing-arm that actually reaches out.

[David Argall]

A thought occurs to me:

Someone (Xykon, IFCC, LG, etc) gains control of a gate.

So what?

"Well, all it can do is kill us, and frankly we'd rather die that live under an ass hole like you, you 2 bit skeletor clone. And you die to, BTW."

While this position gives you some bargaining room, it is not a full defense. You are assuming that Xykon is bluffing. And while there is some degree of bluff, Xykon says he would destroy the world if he got really really bored. So if you want to survive, you are going to have to make sure at least that he doesn't get that bored. He has power over you.




So far, we only know the plan involves "moving" the gate, deciding where it is. Nothing was said the control will also allow to determine that it also opens - and the current problem I see is: We have an open rift, there is no gate at all anymore, but the Snarl does not come/reach out.
So, the question that presents itself to me is this: What good is a gate you can move, but without a god-killing-arm that actually reaches out.

Possibly it would be worthless. But so far, the Azure City rift seems to be the odd case out. The very existence of the gate under the control of the Dark One/fiends/Xykon/other may well be enough even if the "gun" is "not loaded".

[Larkspur]

Possibly it would be worthless. But so far, the Azure City rift seems to be the odd case out. The very existence of the gate under the control of the Dark One/fiends/Xykon/other may well be enough even if the "gun" is "not loaded".

If Redcloak is correct and the existence of the other gates is what's keeping the Snarl from perceiving the rifts, then all one would need to do to take the safety off the gun, as it were, is destroy the remaining gate. Destroying gates is something that that good guys have proven pretty handy at, so maybe Team Evil's plan is to secretly take one, then show up at the other, make a big show of their presence, and wait for the OOTS to come blow the gate to hell. Or Redcloak could set it on fire; whatever.

Xykon has all the time in the world to tweak things to get the Snarl's attention. As long as he doesn't get bored waiting for it to wake up, I don't think any of this is going to be an insurmountable obstacle for him.

[Lamech]

Very good point about the snarl. It isn't attacking, can't believe I didn't put this together before.

Now about Xykon and the gates. SoD
First I would suggest carefully re-reading page 44 and 45 of SoD. Something seems really off about Xykon believing the rituals giving him control of the gate. Redcloak says the the two casters could give The Dark One control. Then Xykon seems to have a misunderstanding about the level of the control, but just moving the gates should be enough to rule the world. At the very least blackmailing gods would work nicely. Then Redcloak says he got the knowledge from the cloak. The knowledge is divine revalation. Why would Xykon think that HE was getting the Snarl? Redcloak never said anything of the sort. I don't see how he wouldn't realize he's getting played. Maybe he thought the Dark One would reward him, but that had to have faded with all the crap he gave Redcloak and the gobs he's killed.

These are major questions about endgame. Very interesting.

[veti]

So, we're agreed... Xykon will try to manipulate the gate for his own purposes. and Redcloak knows this and will have planned for it, and X knows that R knows it and will have planned for that, and...:smallconfused:

But the fact remains that no-one really knows that much about the Snarl. Even the gods themselves haven't seen it in a while.

We get our information on the Snarl mostly from Shojo. We can speculate about Shojo's sources, but let's assume they're the best available and they're accurate in general outline, although probably not too reliable on fine detail. Remember also that Shojo himself is a Chaotic Good who's roleplaying a senile old man at the time, so there's a storytelling filter in play there too. (Not that he'd actually lie or mislead, because the paladin listeners would notice that at once, but he will have told the story in a certain way, using certain language, which will have given an impression that might be subtly different from what we'd have if, say, Hinjo had told the story.)

As for our other sources - the Dark One is probably as expert on the Snarl as anyone, given that it's his plan we're talking about, but even he is limited to the sources available. He could still be wrong. He could also be lying to Redcloak, for reasons we can't guess at present.

So I say, expect the unexpected. The Snarl is a really wild card. To assume that we can know what it might do, in any given situation, is just silly.

[Didgin]

So - to use the soda metaphor - Xykon wants Snarl Lite, not Snarl Classic? :smallbiggrin:

If I were him, I'd take over the world with a cherry snarl:smallwink:

[Dancing_Zephyr]

I might be misremembering but
doesn't the ritual destroy both casters?

[Zevox]

I might be misremembering but
doesn't the ritual destroy both casters?
You're misremembering. Though weirdly, it's a common mistake. I've seen several people under the same impression, even though there's no actual basis for it in the comics or SoD.

Zevox