Freshwater Sahuagin, underground cave variety

[Zen Master]

So ...

My players completely muddled getting past around 120 kobolds - but managed to survive by a succesful (and very lucky) decapitation attack against their leader. Being naturally cowardly - and with the interesting prospect of initiating a powerstruggle as to who gets to be the new leader - the kobolds held back long enough for the players to escape.

With no loot, low xp for the encounter, and lots of nicks and scrapes.

Next encounter is in the merchant/market area of the same ruined subterranean city. Huge chamber, some merchant strongholds and the remains of a shanty marketplace with the rotting remains of stalls and such.

All flooded to a level that reveals only the tops of a few houses above the water level.

I'm thinking in this place dwell a tribe of freshwater sahuagin - pale bastard things that have sunken from the peaks of their mighty civilisation (the sahuagin empire is after all the greatest single power in Eberron) to low and primitive barbarism.

Long story short:

I would greatly appreciate input - fluff and other suggestions - as to how to flesh out these creatures.

I further need advice on how to run the combat. Basically, the sahuagin can see and swim - while the players cannot. They will be dragged under, stabbed and drowned.

So - point in case: 3rd level characters, basically unoptimised - how do I make this situation challenging without killing them?

EDIT: Just looked at my own topic line there ... as if there were other caves beside the ones underground.

[Coidzor]

Ever heard of Kuo-toans? They got kicked out of the ocean by Sahuagin in most DnD universes...

They're pale, sickly, barbaric, and resent being so far fallen from their former glory.

Anyway, I'd alter them that, while they can survive in the freshwater, they're not happy and they're not healthy, so they're kinda gimped sahuagin.

[Zen Master]

Kuo-toans, eh? Well yea - I remember them. The *other* fish guys.

But while they are cool enough on their own terms, they lack the colorful background of the sahuagin.

On the other hand, my players are know-it-all bastards, so if I let them think they are fighting sahuagin (which the will almost certainly assume), I might trick them. Hahah!

However, that only exacerbates my challenge of keeping them from dying.

[daggaz]

*sigh* this campaign sounds so cool... If only they had some kind of lizardman barbarian, I am sure they would do far better..

Anyhow, Sahuagin are a bit over the top for lvl 3, optimized or not. Kuo's really are a lot softer, but they are deliciously evil and nearly entirely alien to airbreathers. Really, they are almost Call of Cthullu evil, and would fit great in a sunken city where they worship their dark, cold-blooded fish gods.

Darkvision and a swimspeed, along with liberal use of nets (aid another is what you want to be using here in groups of 3 to 5) and tridents, should be more than enough to base your hit and run tactics around. Toss in a labyrinthian sunken city replete with the local "hazards" -tentacled monsters the kuo's steer clear of, but lead or corral the PCs into, with a cult-like temple of eeeevil worship in the center, seems pretty fun to me.

[Zen Master]

*sigh* this campaign sounds so cool... If only they had some kind of lizardman barbarian, I am sure they would do far better..

Anyhow, Sahuagin are a bit over the top for lvl 3, optimized or not. Kuo's really are a lot softer, but they are deliciously evil and nearly entirely alien to airbreathers. Really, they are almost Call of Cthullu evil, and would fit great in a sunken city where they worship their dark, cold-blooded fish gods.

Darkvision and a swimspeed, along with liberal use of nets (aid another is what you want to be using here in groups of 3 to 5) and tridents, should be more than enough to base your hit and run tactics around. Toss in a labyrinthian sunken city replete with the local "hazards" -tentacled monsters the kuo's steer clear of, but lead or corral the PCs into, with a cult-like temple of eeeevil worship in the center, seems pretty fun to me.

Good input.

I like drums. Evil beings use drums. However, what do underwater evil beings use to summon their Dark Powers?

So the kuo-toans are bought, package and parcel. But now the next horrible detail: I don't have them. Far as I could tell, they aren't on SRD, so other than them being evil fishy bastards, I've no clue to their game mechanics.

And still - no one has come up with a way of making the players survive this. Only with ideas for lessening their chances of survival.

Anyways - they really should reach level 4 after the first wave of fishmen. That'll help ... very slightly. =)

[XiaoTie]

Perhaps they could survive this through destroying some support pillars that would cause a cave-in, preventing the kuo-toas from reaching them (at least for a while), and maybe even creating a path to an upper level of this underground complex?

[Coidzor]

Kuotoans are in the MMI on pages 163-165. They're generally CR 2, 2 HD creatures.

Trying to remember where it was that I read about their sickliness being expounded upon...

[Zen Master]

Perhaps they could survive this through destroying some support pillars that would cause a cave-in, preventing the kuo-toas from reaching them (at least for a while), and maybe even creating a path to an upper level of this underground complex?

Well - yea. The chamber is clearly flooded because an underground river changed its course. So they might be able to drain the chamber again, removing the advantage the kuo-tuos have.

In fact - who says the river changed course? How about the kuo-toa found the deserted ruin, built a dam, and set up shop. Destroying the dam would help the players no end.

Of course, the damnable fools are likely to think of pretty much any solution except the obvious one. In fact, they are likely to wade right into the water, and not give any thought to anything until the enemies attack - likely dragging off the goblin necromancer first.

Hm ... if only one of them had rolled a healer of some sort. Damnable fools =)

[Zen Master]

Hmmm ...

Having arrived at my dwelling and dug out the dusty tome detailing the kuo-toa, I frankly fail to see how they should be weaker than sahuagin. They have rather more special abilities, devious tactics, and the same hd and ac as sahuagin ...

Hmmm ...

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

Don't they do less damage though?

[Vorpal word]

Maybe have the players encounter a small group of scouts first. Just enough to level them up, probably 2 to 4, one of which escapes (or tries to). Either way, soon enough the main group becomes alert and starts attacking them.

Maybe make it so that the Kuo-Toa are somehow trapped inside the water and are forced to throw tridents to attack. Then have a "safe zone" somewhere on site and make the party cross a narrow channel (meleeing the kuo-toas currently there) to get to safety.

From where they can, at your option, cause a cave-in/burn the dam/whatever.

[daggaz]

really? coulda swore they were softer. anyhow they are still exactly what you want as far as fluff goes. you can always fit some sahuagin in later for special plot action =)

as far as how to get rid of them.... dams? F*** dams, man! you are underground. Instead, have the players destroy some key architecture which acts as a PLUG, so all the water plus kuos goes sssshhhhlllllooooooop down the hole. Make sure the players know before hand to hang on tight =) (or just railroad their survival, surprises this hot are always ok) They will love this act of wanton destruction, and in the end you have a simply underdark river passing through the now renewed sunken city, which is of course ripe for future RP purposes.

Yeah, I am awesome, and you want me in your campaign. Too bad I work so much lately, but you can thank me later. :smallcool:

[daggaz]

Well - yea. The chamber is clearly flooded because an underground river changed its course. So they might be able to drain the chamber again, removing the advantage the kuo-tuos have.

In fact - who says the river changed course? How about the kuo-toa found the deserted ruin, built a dam, and set up shop. Destroying the dam would help the players no end.

Of course, the damnable fools are likely to think of pretty much any solution except the obvious one. In fact, they are likely to wade right into the water, and not give any thought to anything until the enemies attack - likely dragging off the goblin necromancer first.

Hm ... if only one of them had rolled a healer of some sort. Damnable fools =)

curse me for double posting in your thread... whatever.

Kuo's dont build dams to destroy forgotten cities. They do something dastardly to flood and destroy a populated city instead. (Pray to their gods, get a big rock to fall and plug a hole, work to change a rivers course, etc).. Think of all the corpses, man!!!

Also, coulda swore you had a cleric in your party..

[Zen Master]

curse me for double posting in your thread... whatever.

Kuo's dont build dams to destroy forgotten cities. They do something dastardly to flood and destroy a populated city instead. (Pray to their gods, get a big rock to fall and plug a hole, work to change a rivers course, etc).. Think of all the corpses, man!!!

Also, coulda swore you had a cleric in your party..

Well see - when the city was active, it was the hub of of the hubgoblin empire. It wasn't really anything for a lowly group of kuo-toans to attack - unless they were really anxious to die in a hurry.

No ... see, it's like this. This is the merchant district. South of it is the Heroes Arcade, a memorial to six fallen hobgoblin heroes - where the kobolds have set up camp. Now, fleeing from their horrible blunder with the kobolds, they come to the merchants district. They need to pass it, heading west, to get to the chasm. The chasm was created by an underground river - the same river that A) flowed through the merchants district for water supply and shipping purposes, or B) was diverted into the merchants district to flood it.

At any rate, the river that cascades into the chasm is the source of the water in the merchants district.

Also - yea, they had a cleric. Then he turned out to be a rogue instead on the first game session.

Next time however, the psion will finally show - and she has limited healing powers.

[Zen Master]

Maybe have the players encounter a small group of scouts first. Just enough to level them up, probably 2 to 4, one of which escapes (or tries to). Either way, soon enough the main group becomes alert and starts attacking them.

Maybe make it so that the Kuo-Toa are somehow trapped inside the water and are forced to throw tridents to attack. Then have a "safe zone" somewhere on site and make the party cross a narrow channel (meleeing the kuo-toas currently there) to get to safety.

From where they can, at your option, cause a cave-in/burn the dam/whatever.

Problem is, I used scouts in the first encounter with the kobolds. And it worked great too - but now it's already been used. But then again, there doesn't have to be as many kuo-toans as there were kobolds - 120 might be stretching it, since this time I really do want them to fight.

Last encounter was meant to be about avoidance. Damnable fools.

It's always a problem for me how many bloody obvious clues I should drop on the players - I could have marked out the route through the kobold camp that would allow them to pass undetected with neon signs, but where is the fun in that? However, they never checked - but instead decided to just wade through them.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Maybe use Locathah instead, they're in the SRD and considerably weaker than either of the other two, plus their favored class is Barbarian. I'd make the encounters 2-3 without class levels, one Barbarian 1 ringleader, and maybe an Adept 1 or 3 as some sort of seer or shaman. They're not amphibious so they'd have to hold their breath out of water, and they don't get any improved vision underwater or even darkvision, so maybe make the area littered with some sort of glowing algae to provide illumination.

I like the idea of them building a dam to flood the area, especially considering the ecological implications. For example, maybe there was a community of friendly aquatic creatures downstream whose home is now draining away because of it. Maybe they sent a representative to see what these creatures were up to and maybe make a compromise or resolve the issue some other way. If the PCs are lacking healing, maybe include an Aquatic Elf (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elf.htm#aquaticElf) NPC who needs to be rescued. Make it an Adept equal level to the PCs, but don't count it for splitting XP or treasure. It wouldn't be able to continue with them past the flooded section due to being aquatic, though they could probably head downstream to its community to rest and resupply. A Wand of Cure Light Wounds is just amazing for healing up between encounters, any Ranger or Paladin with Wisdom 11+ can use one even before they get access to spells.

Edit: If you really want to challenge the players, throw in a few with Dragonfire Adept 1 from Dragon Magic and the feat Entangling Exhalation from Races of the Dragon. Give them a racial substitution level that changes the default damage from fire to something that will work underwater, I'd go with either cold or electricity. Make them spam entangling breaths every round, and the entire party should be nicely debuffed in no time. It's especially good if they get dragged underwater and are stuck trying to swim up at half speed.

[Zen Master]

Locathat. Yes, maybe. They're neutral though - normally, I'd consider that a bonus, as it adds a slight taste of moral ambiguity. However, with these noobs it's actually risky - they could start infighting over whether to attack or not =)

But very nice input. Thinking of this whole area in context of a larger ecology is a small stroke of genius, I'll redraw my maps immediately. Whether elves should be down this deep or not is questionable - maybe a drow?! On the other hand drow would be fairly likely to just eradicate a few locathat that they found bothersome :)

Actually, rescuing a drow priestess is just too interesting to pass up. Cultist of the Dragon Below are a favourite of mine.

[Zeta Kai]

I have made 4 different varieties of Sahuagin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4948534) for the Final Fantasy X d20 project. The first & last are weaker than a standard D&D Sahuagin, the second is about the same power level, & the third is significantly powerful. I hope that this helps.

You might also want to consider using the 4-armed mutant variety (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/sahuagin.htm#sahuaginMutants), as well as Malenti (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/sahuagin.htm#malenti). Both variants provide a lot of plot potential for DMs who wanna spice up an underwater encounter.

[Zen Master]

Cool, thanks :)

I was considering the 4-armed version for a bodyguard for the sahuagin leader, actually. I'm not quite sure how to fit a malenti in there.

[Zen Master]

Conceivably, no one but me cares about this, but .... I've solved it!

My merchants quarter will be flooded by something like 20 feet of water. Enough to completely cover most structures, but enough for some ancient, rotting roofs to be above water.

At the entrance will be the border defences of the sahuagin/kuo-toa/locatha/whatever. There will be nets under the surface, poisonous thingies (undecided whether these will be the spines of cave fish, or plants, or something else), and naturally a few guards.

Now, naturally I expect my players to wade out, and start swimming. After I clearly stated in an email to the after the last session that I'd have awarded them extra xp for thinking, I fully expect them to take the path of most resistance, again.

So I will make a game of stepping stones - around the cave to the far exit. Basically from roof to roof, from defensible position to defensible position, finding ways to cross from one to the next without swimming. Mostly.

I mean - I still expect them to swim. But this way, I have something to write about in my next email.

Each of these rooftops will have it's own challenge - enemies, traps, locks, two of them will be linked by a flooded tunnel which my players will surely never find, and so on.

Yea ... survival will be a theoretical option, but tonight they will all die. Damnable fools.