"As for the elf..."

[GreatWyrmGold]

In this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0567.html), te oracle implies that B had somehow caused the death of V. (Or maybe that he would.) This theory has to be even less plausible than the theory that he caused Windstriker's death. What do you think it was?

[Ancalagon]

I think the important message is: Vaarsuvius will die.

The "how" would have been some ludicrous rambling as it was about the horse and Roy.

[Tenebrais]

By failing to retrieve Roy's body in time, he made Vaarsuvius focus on breaking through the epic-level Cloister magic, turning him into an obsessive shadow of his former self, which led to some character development - thus 'killing' the old V.
Or something like that.

[Ichneumon]

Comic 567 shows us that the prophesies shouldn't be thought of as farfetched and quite literal, sometimes even too literal as in "where is Xykon? In his throne room".

[Draxonicar]

In this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0567.html), te oracle implies that B had somehow caused the death of V. (Or maybe that he would.) This theory has to be even less plausible than the theory that he caused Windstriker's death. What do you think it was?

Isn't the point that the question was OR and that those stretches of answers for Roy's, V's etc death were not really plausoible, he even said he didnt really buy them either when belkar killed him.

It was a yes answer to an OR question, if even 1 came true, he was correct

Belkar killed the oracle, thus it came true

[Zevox]

Isn't the point that the question was OR and that those stretches of answers for Roy's, V's etc death were not really plausoible, he even said he didnt really buy them either when belkar killed him.

It was a yes answer to an OR question, if even 1 came true, he was correct

Belkar killed the oracle, thus it came true
On the surface, yes. But all of the events that the Oracle tried to pass off as fulfilling the prophecy did actually happen, even though it is ridiculous to say that they fulfilled Belkar's prophecy. Roy did die. Miko did die. Windstriker did end up stuck in the upper planes. Stands to reason that he had some real event in mind for V's explanation as well, no matter how ludicrous it would be to say that it would fulfill Belkar's prophecy.

Zevox

[Lissou]

By kissing V, belkar lead V to bicker with him and play pranks instead on focusing on achieving greater power. It lead to his helplessness at the Azure City battle and later, when trying to contact Haley.
As a result, he took the deal, and realised power isn't as important as the way you use it, therefore the old V died and the new V arose. Or the old V "died" because his haircut is different.

[Draxonicar]

I bet that when V is taken control of by the fiends belkar beats the hell out of em and "kills" V, thus making the fiends exit her(why would V go to such great lengths to un-lust herself, and I doubt the belkster is gay (whores, much?) ) body and let V get in control again

[NerfTW]

I bet that when V is taken control of by the fiends belkar beats the hell out of em and "kills" V, thus making the fiends exit her(why would V go to such great lengths to un-lust herself, and I doubt the belkster is gay (whores, much?) ) body and let V get in control again

Belkar kissed V on New Years, remember? That's why he/she/it went to great lengths to tick him off, because Belkar DID show lust, even if it was a drunken kiss meant for a random chick. It doesn't prove V's gender or Belkar's orientation. (since V is androgynous to observers)

Anyways, I agree that it would have been the most convoluted of the "deaths". My theory that it was linked to the "causing Roy's death" prophecy. By causing Roy's death (however convoluted that was), Belkar caused the order to seperate, causing V to become obsessive, eventually getting the fiend's offer and attacking Xykon, where I was positive V was going to "die" in some way.

But since V has admitted and is working to correct a major, critical character flaw, I agree the Oracle would have considered that the "death" of the old V. I liked how there wound up being one real death in there. I would just like to go on record as saying I totally called it back during the battle when he first "caused" Roy's death, that the deaths would get progressively more tenuously linked to Belkar.

[jamroar]

In this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0567.html), te oracle implies that B had somehow caused the death of V. (Or maybe that he would.) This theory has to be even less plausible than the theory that he caused Windstriker's death. What do you think it was?

I think the reason he left V. for the last is because


"... That has yet to come to pass."

[Kish]

I wish I thought that was it. Unfortunately, that would have made Vaarsuvius the strongest one, and so the one to bring up first.

[KazilDarkeye]

Keep in mind the Oracle did say something like "Yeah, I wasn't buying those either. Worth a shot tho-", implying that he didn't really believe those stories.

Then again, he saw that Belkar was going to kill him, and so could've lied about not buying them.

[Kaytara]

Keep in mind the Oracle did say something like "Yeah, I wasn't buying those either. Worth a shot tho-", implying that he didn't really believe those stories.

Then again, he saw that Belkar was going to kill him, and so could've lied about not buying them.

As Zevox said, he wasn't buying that the theory that those events counted as a fulfilment of the prophecy. Roy and Miko's deaths and Windstriker's banishment to the Afterlife did really happen. Whatever event the Oracle was going to bring up with V did already happen as well.

I've been saying for ages that I think it's a "symbolic" death, as well. V is working to change his fundamental being, thus the old V has "died". The event which "caused" this is simple enough: had Belkar not pointed out V's messenger birds for Haley to shoot, they would have succeeded in sharing their message and the groups would have established contact much sooner.

[David Argall]

In this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0567.html), te oracle implies that B had somehow caused the death of V. (Or maybe that he would.) This theory has to be even less plausible than the theory that he caused Windstriker's death. What do you think it was?
Extremely meaningless.
Our basic analysist is that the Oracle mentioned...
Roy-a sharp, but valid, case,
Miko-also sharp, but invalid, case
Miko's horse-a case clearly invalid and pretty much just silly.
so V's "death" is something even less connected to Belkar.

We can add here that when V was a lizard, she memorized 3 spells, and only used two of them.
Then we have the splice case. 3 souls and 3 epic spells, but only 2 are cast.
So we have a pattern here of not completing the pattern. There is simply no reason to think there was really a reference to V here.

[jamroar]

I wish I thought that was it. Unfortunately, that would have made Vaarsuvius the strongest one, and so the one to bring up first.

It may be strong, but is also unprovable at the time, and thus useless to the Oracle as a means to talk his way out of getting killed.

[HZ514]

I just read it as the Oracle subtly mocking Belkar. The Oracle is clearly experienced enough to know that he can't change the future events that he sees, so he wouldn't ever actually try. He knows Belkar's going to kabob him, so he just milked it for laughs. Extra points for gambit-ing the MoJ's activation.

If anything, Rich was just addressing all the forum speculation on "Belkar killed ____" by incorporating it in-comic. He's quite good at that.

Alternatively: the Oracle was ensuring the future he saw. if he really wanted to persuade Belkar that his prophecy had been fulfilled, he would've told the Roy example (the most believable one) with more finality. In character, he'd say "You killed Roy," mock Belkar for not realizing it, and stop at that. In the strip where Belkar says "That doesn't count," the Oracle would just walk away, because that would sell it. But instead, he says "OK, OK fine. How about this one then..." and starts down the list of exponentially less plausible explanations. He leads Belkar to snapping and stabbing him, because that's how the timeline dictates it had to go down.

[Bibliomancer]

I just read it as the Oracle subtly mocking Belkar. The Oracle is clearly experienced enough to know that he can't change the future events that he sees, so he wouldn't ever actually try. He knows Belkar's going to kabob him, so he just milked it for laughs. Extra points for gambit-ing the MoJ's activation.

If anything, Rich was just addressing all the forum speculation on "Belkar killed ____" by incorporating it in-comic. He's quite good at that.

Alternatively: the Oracle was ensuring the future he saw. if he really wanted to persuade Belkar that his prophecy had been fulfilled, he would've told the Roy example (the most believable one) with more finality. In character, he'd say "You killed Roy," mock Belkar for not realizing it, and stop at that. In the strip where Belkar says "That doesn't count," the Oracle would just walk away, because that would sell it. But instead, he says "OK, OK fine. How about this one then..." and starts down the list of exponentially less plausible explanations. He leads Belkar to snapping and stabbing him, because that's how the timeline dictates it had to go down.

This is interesting, because it means that the Oracle has his entire life laid out for him. I wonder if he eats much melange? If so, what terrible event is he attempting to avoid by getting Belkar to kill him?

[Corwin Weber]

This is interesting, because it means that the Oracle has his entire life laid out for him. I wonder if he eats much melange? If so, what terrible event is he attempting to avoid by getting Belkar to kill him?

This wouldn't be the first story to make that comparison.

Paul flees from his laid out destiny, and his son Leto spends about 3500 years clearing everybody else's.

[Bunnywolf]

This is interesting, because it means that the Oracle has his entire life laid out for him. I wonder if he eats much melange? If so, what terrible event is he attempting to avoid by getting Belkar to kill him?

If evading an event more horrible than being killed by Belkar was the Oracle's intent, then the event would have to have happened between being killed and being resurrected shortly after - because after the resurrection the Oracle would still live to see that event.

[Kalbron]

I can personally picture a IFCC!V vs Belkar grudge match, with one of his devils saying "Go on, kill the pointy-eared freak, it's soooo worth it!" with the other saying "No don't! Think of the Greater You Belkar! If you help the fiends you'll be able to kill whenever, wherever and whoever you like!"

After much inner turmoil due to this soul destroyingly hard decision, Belkar decides that, yes, it would be "sooo worth it!" to eviscerate IFCC!V, and confirmation of such will be his dying words after making an elf-chip holder.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Extremely meaningless.
Our basic analysist is that the Oracle mentioned...
Roy-a sharp, but valid, case,
Miko-also sharp, but invalid, case
Miko's horse-a case clearly invalid and pretty much just silly.
so V's "death" is something even less connected to Belkar.
Yeah. I was wondering about what theories you had about how V had already "died". Or would "die", but in either case, even more technical and less belivable than Windstriker's.


We can add here that when V was a lizard, she memorized 3 spells, and only used two of them.
The last, Hold Portal, was used in a punch line:
:vaarsuvius:Where is a portal to hold when you really need one?


Then we have the splice case. 3 souls and 3 epic spells, but only 2 are cast.
Jephton lost his epic slots because of Energy Drain.


So we have a pattern here of not completing the pattern. There is simply no reason to think there was really a reference to V here.
Except that, y'know, s/he's the only elf B asked if he was gonna kill.

[David Argall]

The last, Hold Portal, was used in a punch line:
:vaarsuvius:Where is a portal to hold when you really need one?

Jephton lost his epic slots because of Energy Drain.

Except that, y'know, s/he's the only elf B asked if he was gonna kill.
You seem to be missing the point. In neither of these groups were the options all used. We thus conclude our writer does not feel any need to use all options, and "As for the elf..." is all there ever will be about a connection between Belkar and V's death.

[archon_huskie]

It could have gone:

"As for the elf. . . Well I got nothing there, sorry."

[Alex Warlorn]

Belkar killed the messenger birds... thus, V went even more nuts and made the deal with the fiends.

And thus, the heroes will have to knock off V when he's taken control of.

[Rotipher]

Whatever he'd been about to say, I suspect it's a prediction of something that's got nothing to do with a Belkar vs. V smackdown: it predicts that we'll be seeing the Oracle again, so that Rich can tie up that (deliberate? I'd bet you 10 gp!) dangling thread.

[David Argall]

Whatever he'd been about to say, I suspect it's a prediction of something that's got nothing to do with a Belkar vs. V smackdown: it predicts that we'll be seeing the Oracle again, so that Rich can tie up that

If we see the Oracle again, we have a serious plothole since the Oracle has said that Roy will remember nothing about visiting the Oracle. As long as Roy doesn't go back, that is easy enough to paper over, but a revisit is virtually certain to cause a contradiction.
Besides, the party is now on another continent, and apparently heading to the far North after that, so they should be thousands of miles from the Oracle for the rest of the story.

So don't be expecting to see much of the Oracle from here on out.

[Rotipher]

It doesn't have to be a plot hole. The Oracle never claimed that Tiamat predicted Roy wouldn't remember; the little jerk may have just taken it for granted that the forgetfulness effect would work, like it always has before. Sure, the Oracle's prophecies are infallible, but Rich has never indicated that the kobold, himself, is incapable of making a false assumption. Plus, we know the Oracle doesn't always look ahead at the details of his own future, or else he'd never be caught in the shower when clients arrive.

If the Oracle just assumed Roy would forget, then having Roy confront him with the fact he didn't would be an amusing opportunity to turn his own I-Know-Something-You-Don't-Know attitude around on the kobold. That, in itself, could be funny enough to justify another visit, even without any dangling plot threads to tie off. All the funnier, if Roy leads the Oracle on by playing dumb, much as the kobold led him on previously, by pretending he couldn't sense the fighter's ghostly presence.

As for the distances involved, of course they're going to wind up back at the fifth and final Gate eventually. It might not be until the book-after-next, but it'll happen.

[Snails]

On the surface, yes. But all of the events that the Oracle tried to pass off as fulfilling the prophecy did actually happen, even though it is ridiculous to say that they fulfilled Belkar's prophecy. Roy did die. Miko did die. Windstriker did end up stuck in the upper planes. Stands to reason that he had some real event in mind for V's explanation as well, no matter how ludicrous it would be to say that it would fulfill Belkar's prophecy.


I think you are on the right track.

The Oracle is making a joke. In some very convoluted way of thinking, Belkar will get his every listed wish, but not in a way that makes much sense as a "prophecy fulfilled" by the letter of the law.

[LordlyCaliber]

The oracle said those things in a weak effort to avoid getting killed, knowing they were unlikely to convince Belkar.

Inevitably, he would be killed, thus filfilling the prophecy!

[japandy42]

Ancalagon is apparently the only person who understood the significance of the comment. There is no connection between Belkar and V's death. But V is going to die in strip, which is why the reference was made at all. No reason V can't be raised, however.

[archon_huskie]

It could have gone:

"As for the elf. . . Well I got nothing there, sorry."
Not apparently Japandy42