PDA

View Full Version : GURPS 4e Questions and Fiddling



Kizara
2009-07-03, 10:25 PM
My friend and I (longtime 3.5 users) have been trying to get into GURPS lately. There is much I like about the system, a few things I don't and a few things I have yet to fully understand. I'm looking to pick the knowledge pool here a bit and get some feedback and instruction on using this system. I will also will have more questions in the future as new issues become apparent.

Thanks in advance for your attention and responses.


Many of my concerns are based around the combat system. I truly appreciate how much more involved the combat system is but need someone(s) to walk me through it.

The character I am trying to play (in our realistic, low-magic setting) is a two-handed sword fighter. I have made him up on the character assistant, and if there's a way for me easily export that for your viewing I will gladly do so.

His weapon has a reach of 2, but how is this relivant? Do enemies 'provoke' moving into attack me?

How does parrying work?
I'd also like parrying to be an opposed skill, how would that work? I figure DX/A with -2 default to the appropriate weapon skill, and in combat make attack rolls vs parry rolls. How about dodge and block under the same principals?

What about factors such as knockdown, stunning, injuries and so forth? When are the checked for? How are they resolved?

Is there any benefit for using my weapon 2-handed? If not, what would be an appropriate one to homebrew?

How about morale in combat? How and when is that dealt with?


What about other opposed skills? For instance, during the session someone tried to pickpocket my character, and we looked it up and saw it was opposed by streetwise or preception. So, how do we quickly figure out the thief's pickpocketing modifier? Is it just his dex + skill level?


How many character points are an appropriate reward for a session? How about a session that you won a combat?
How many points should routine adversaries be built with? How about elite ones? Major rivals?

Ultimately, it would be useful for someone to run through a combat with my character (bastard sword, ST 15, DX 11, HT 14, +2 striking ST, HP 20, Hard to Kill 2, Fearless 2) vs a group of varied opponents, showing how it is done.


Thanks for any responses.
I'm aware this information is in the basic books, but I find it much easier to figure things out with some discussion and teaching from those knowledgable with the material.

mikeejimbo
2009-07-03, 11:14 PM
My GURPS-fu, when it comes to the more finicky parts of combat, is not the best. I'll try to answer as best as I can though.


How does parrying work?
I'd also like parrying to be an opposed skill, how would that work? I figure DX/A with -2 default to the appropriate weapon skill, and in combat make attack rolls vs parry rolls. How about dodge and block under the same principals?

Parrying, much like dodging, is like a skill roll, and if you make it you successfully parry (or dodge.) Your parry is one-half your weapon skill + 3.

Edit: I checked, I was indeed right.


What about factors such as knockdown, stunning, injuries and so forth? When are the checked for? How are they resolved?

They're checked for whenever the attack is made. I'm not sure about rules for knockdown or stunning, but I know stunning can occur on a successful head hit. Injuries impose a penalty on your skills. However much damage you take in a round is imposed as a penalty for the next round as shock damage, if I remember correctly.

Edit: Also, there are penalties for being at under 1/3 of your HP, at 0 HP (where you may fall unconscious), and at -HP (At -HP you may die). Also, I was wrong about shock - it is applied as a penalty to DX and IQ, which reduces MOST of your skills.

There are indeed rules for knockdown and stunning. When you suffer more than 1/2 your HP in damage, or are hit in the head or vitals, you must make a HT check or be knocked down and stunned.


Is there any benefit for using my weapon 2-handed? If not, what would be an appropriate one to homebrew?

Mostly I think some weapons require 2 hands unless you have a very high strength. There may be something about one-handing two-handed weapons with a penalty, but again, I'm not the greatest with melee combat.

Edit: Yeah, some weapons require 2 hands but you can wield it in 1 hand if you have at least 1.5 times the minimum ST, though it becomes unready after you attack with it. If you have at least 2x, it doesn't become unready. Other weapons require 2 hands AND become unready after use - they require 1.5 times the ST to not become unready after use, and 3x to be used in one hand and not become unready.


How about morale in combat? How and when is that dealt with?

That's mostly dealt with through appropriate advantages and disadvantages that affect how your character reacts to combat, such as Bloodlust. I don't believe there are general rules on morale, except in the Mass Combat rules.


What about other opposed skills? For instance, during the session someone tried to pickpocket my character, and we looked it up and saw it was opposed by streetwise or preception. So, how do we quickly figure out the thief's pickpocketing modifier? Is it just his dex + skill level?

His DX should already be taken into account for the listing in his skill, so you just roll his pickpocketing vs. your streetwise or perception.


How many character points are an appropriate reward for a session? How about a session that you won a combat?

They say from 1 to 3, maybe going up to 5 for extremely sound victories, though this doesn't necessarily mean a combat. Combat can however be a rewarding victory depending on the character.

The real answer though, depends on how fast you want your characters to progress. And in the Dungeon Fantasy series, they suggest giving character points just for killing monsters for the XP feel.


How many points should routine adversaries be built with? How about elite ones? Major rivals?

NPCs don't need to be built on points, they just need the important bits worked out. For example, you might just say an NPC guardsman has ST 12, IQ 10, DX 11, HT 12 and a shortsword skill of 13. That would probably be enough. This takes a tiny bit of experience in deciding what's an appropriate challenge for the players, of course.


Ultimately, it would be useful for someone to run through a combat with my character (bastard sword, ST 15, DX 11, HT 14, +2 striking ST, HP 20, Hard to Kill 2, Fearless 2) vs a group of varied opponents, showing how it is done.

What's his level in the bastard sword?

Also, you should be able to export a character. Are you using the Character Builder (which is the old 3rd edition one) or the new Character Assistant? (which is the current one)

With the Character Assistant you only need to go to the file menu, click "Export" and select "Plain Text" as the format, then open the file in a text editor and copy/paste.

Edit: And the question on reach - it's the number of yards from which you can attack. There aren't really opportunity attacks

Kizara
2009-07-03, 11:23 PM
Well thanks for your... somewhat limited information. Better than nothing tho.

His skill level is 15... according to my character assistant.

mikeejimbo
2009-07-03, 11:40 PM
Well thanks for your... somewhat limited information. Better than nothing tho.

His skill level is 15... according to my character assistant.

Actually, I've checked my books and edited my post extensively. You should find it has much better information now.

Fridrik Bj
2009-07-03, 11:48 PM
First. Go over to http://forums.sjgames.com/ and have a look. It's the GURPS forums. Also go and look up "GURPS light" on e23. I thin it's free. It's a good place to start before moving into the deep pool.

>>His weapon has a reach of 2, but how is this relivant? Do enemies 'provoke' moving into attack me?

You can hit someone 2 meters (Hexes) away. It doesn't make you hit first unless you wait until the enemy is within range and then smash him as he tries to get closer to use his shorter weapon. After that you trade blows on one on one bases. It's useful to have a long weapon and high move. for this reason.

>>How does parrying work?
I'd also like parrying to be an opposed skill, how would that work? I figure DX/A with -2 default to the appropriate weapon skill, and in combat make attack rolls vs parry rolls. How about dodge and block under the same principals?

Parry is half your weapon skill +/- any bonuses. Block with shield works similary. It only comes into play after you have been hit. Then you roll your parry, block or dodge to see if you can get to live. GURPS is quite deadly unless you play cinematic rules. So take care.

>>What about factors such as knockdown, stunning, injuries and so forth? When are the checked for? How are they resolved?

GURPS has rules for all of these. just look them up in GURPS light or your GURPS book if you have it. There is quite a good index at the back.

>>Is there any benefit for using my weapon 2-handed? If not, what would be an appropriate one to homebrew?

Some weapons can only be used 2 handed. (Usually high damage once) Other can be used one and two handed (Bastard sword) and will have two stats line depending on how many hands you are using. Basicly 2 handed weapons are the high damage once. They rely on you hitting the opponent first and hurting him so much he can't hit back. It's a matter of sacrificing defence for offence. If you want to live long in GURPS, hen get a shield. It's not as cool, but practical. There is a reason that the Romans with shortswords and big shields tended to win against the bigger barbarians with two handed weapons.

>>How about morale in combat? How and when is that dealt with?

There is no real system for this in small confrontations. (I think). But there is a cool mass combat system out as a PDF that would. Have a look on E23.

>>What about other opposed skills? For instance, during the session someone tried to pickpocket my character, and we looked it up and saw it was opposed by streetwise or preception. So, how do we quickly figure out the thief's pickpocketing modifier? Is it just his dex + skill level?

His skill, based on how many points he has and DEX (1 points would be DEX -1 or two, 2 points would be DEX without modifiers, more points DEX with positive modifiers) versus your skill based on your Perception and points in streetwise.

If he makes his check, he gets the purse. If you make our check you realise that someone is trying to take your purse. So you have for possible outcomes. HE gets purse and you know, He doesn't get purse and you know. He gets purse and you don't know and the funny one he doesn't get purse and you don't know. Any Critical successes would make the one getting criticals succeed automaticly in doing something cool.

>>How many character points are an appropriate reward for a session?

Depending on how fast your GM wants the group to advance. My group fives from 2 - 5 points depending.

>>How about a session that you won a combat?

That is a DnD idea. Drop it now. Congratulation, welcome to the grown up world. If I was running a game I would give about 3 points per session plus extra point per session for cool ideas or good roleplaying from players. Plus extra points at the end of a story arc. I wouldn't care if the players ran away from every combat and couldn't beet up a mouse. AS LONG AS EVERYONE WAS HAVING FUN (Capital for emphasis)

>>How many points should routine adversaries be built with? How about elite ones? Major rivals?

NONE. The DM does not have to build complete characters. Only decide how much better or worse they are compared to the heroes.

So if an average Hero in your group has ST 13, weapon skill of 15 and 12 HP I would make the stats for enemy's like this:

Minion: ST10 Weapons kill 10, HP 10 (club and small shield)
Henchman ST 11, Weapon skill 11, HP 10 (Leather armour and Spear)
Elite: ST 11, Weapon skill 13, HP 11 (Chain mail, Broad sword and Medium shield)

On top of that I would write down if the enemy's had any special skills or powers that are good for them, or any special thing that is bad for them. Like Bersercer or blind as a bat.

Scary enemy I want the Heroes to run away from would have similar skills to them or higher. As well as some cool manuvers, equipment or powers to make them memorable. The main danger here is that large groups will kill small groups in GURPS almost no matter what skill they have. I have only once had a character win alone agains 3 enemy's and that was only because I was really lucky on my rolls. So whats out for that in your games. Your heroes will slaughter a major enemy quite easily if he is alone but might all die if confronted with 20 kobolts.

>>Ultimately, it would be useful for someone to run through a combat with my character (bastard sword, ST 15, DX 11, HT 14, +2 striking ST, HP 20, Hard to Kill 2, Fearless 2) vs a group of varied opponents, showing how it is done.

Sorry Don't have my GURPS stuff in this country. can't help there. Your character seams a bit overpowered for GURPS, any enemy that his a challenge for him will also be quite deadly. GURPS is often easier to grasp at a lower point total and surprisingly less deadly. My recommendation to you is to go to the Steve Jackson games site that I linked at the top and have a look at the forum. Then go to the E23 store that is on the same sight and pick up GURPS light. It is the place to start. even if you don't play the light rules you can at least get explanations there. Good luck and welcome to the grown up world.

EDIT: Ninjad and then some

EDIT_II: Gurps light can be found here. And it is free. http://e23.sjgames.com/item.html?id=SJG31-0004

mikeejimbo
2009-07-03, 11:56 PM
Fridrik also has some very good information. I heartily second it all and wish to add this:


There is no real system for this in small confrontations. (I think). But there is a cool mass combat system out as a PDF that would. Have a look on E23.

I third this (because I already seconded it in that blanket statement). The mass combat system is really cool.

Kizara
2009-07-04, 12:52 AM
Thanks for your responses.


First. Go over to http://forums.sjgames.com/ and have a look. It's the GURPS forums. Also go and look up "GURPS light" on e23. I thin it's free. It's a good place to start before moving into the deep pool.

I have the basic set. Thanks for the link to the forums, however.


>>His weapon has a reach of 2, but how is this relivant? Do enemies 'provoke' moving into attack me?

You can hit someone 2 meters (Hexes) away. It doesn't make you hit first unless you wait until the enemy is within range and then smash him as he tries to get closer to use his shorter weapon. After that you trade blows on one on one bases. It's useful to have a long weapon and high move. for this reason.

So, you hit and move away for a while, until you can stand and ready to hit them? Is that why its a good idea?



>>How does parrying work?
I'd also like parrying to be an opposed skill, how would that work? I figure DX/A with -2 default to the appropriate weapon skill, and in combat make attack rolls vs parry rolls. How about dodge and block under the same principals?


Parry is half your weapon skill +/- any bonuses. Block with shield works similary. It only comes into play after you have been hit. Then you roll your parry, block or dodge to see if you can get to live. GURPS is quite deadly unless you play cinematic rules. So take care.

You misunderstand me slightly. One of the things I dislike in GURPS is that things seem to be resolved in a vacuum. Thus, I'd like for combat to involved actively opposed rolls. So, to make this reasonable, parry and dodge would have to be a skill like weapon skills are, or linked to them, or something.

My knowledge of the system is still low, but I would like for things to be based on the skills of the opponents, instead of just statically 'roll under skill'.

I would greatly appreciate any feedback on how this could work.


>>What about factors such as knockdown, stunning, injuries and so forth? When are the checked for? How are they resolved?

GURPS has rules for all of these. just look them up in GURPS light or your GURPS book if you have it. There is quite a good index at the back.

Thanks. I actually knew that rules for this existed, and was having trouble hunting them all down and putting it all together, was hoping for some aid with that.


>>Is there any benefit for using my weapon 2-handed? If not, what would be an appropriate one to homebrew?

Some weapons can only be used 2 handed. (Usually high damage once) Other can be used one and two handed (Bastard sword) and will have two stats line depending on how many hands you are using. Basicly 2 handed weapons are the high damage once. They rely on you hitting the opponent first and hurting him so much he can't hit back. It's a matter of sacrificing defence for offence. If you want to live long in GURPS, hen get a shield. It's not as cool, but practical. There is a reason that the Romans with shortswords and big shields tended to win against the bigger barbarians with two handed weapons.

Looking up the bastard sword, it seems that under the two-handed sword table it indeed has 1 damage higher. Is there really no other benefit at all? A true greatsword is only 1 higher then that. Seeking a system with higher simulation, I find it distressing that 3.5 DnD seemed to be better at having signifigant differences in using weapons differently.

Do you have some bonus to effects like knockdown or stun? To parrying?



>>How about morale in combat? How and when is that dealt with?

There is no real system for this in small confrontations. (I think). But there is a cool mass combat system out as a PDF that would. Have a look on E23.

Ok, good to know. Thanks.


>>What about other opposed skills? For instance, during the session someone tried to pickpocket my character, and we looked it up and saw it was opposed by streetwise or preception. So, how do we quickly figure out the thief's pickpocketing modifier? Is it just his dex + skill level?

His skill, based on how many points he has and DEX (1 points would be DEX -1 or two, 2 points would be DEX without modifiers, more points DEX with positive modifiers) versus your skill based on your Perception and points in streetwise.

If he makes his check, he gets the purse. If you make our check you realise that someone is trying to take your purse. So you have for possible outcomes. HE gets purse and you know, He doesn't get purse and you know. He gets purse and you don't know and the funny one he doesn't get purse and you don't know. Any Critical successes would make the one getting criticals succeed automaticly in doing something cool.

How do you know what outcome happens? Just randomly decide?


>>How many character points are an appropriate reward for a session?

Depending on how fast your GM wants the group to advance. My group fives from 2 - 5 points depending.

>>How about a session that you won a combat?

That is a DnD idea. Drop it now. Congratulation, welcome to the grown up world. If I was running a game I would give about 3 points per session plus extra point per session for cool ideas or good roleplaying from players. Plus extra points at the end of a story arc. I wouldn't care if the players ran away from every combat and couldn't beet up a mouse. AS LONG AS EVERYONE WAS HAVING FUN (Capital for emphasis)

Appreciate the snipe and insulting remarks. I'm sorry I was not politically correct enough to say "overcomes a signifigant challenge". If you strongly believe against rewarding your players for sucess, I suppose that's your perogative, I hardly believe it makes you inherently more mature.


>>How many points should routine adversaries be built with? How about elite ones? Major rivals?

NONE. The DM does not have to build complete characters. Only decide how much better or worse they are compared to the heroes.

So if an average Hero in your group has ST 13, weapon skill of 15 and 12 HP I would make the stats for enemy's like this:

Minion: ST10 Weapons kill 10, HP 10 (club and small shield)
Henchman ST 11, Weapon skill 11, HP 10 (Leather armour and Spear)
Elite: ST 11, Weapon skill 13, HP 11 (Chain mail, Broad sword and Medium shield)

On top of that I would write down if the enemy's had any special skills or powers that are good for them, or any special thing that is bad for them. Like Bersercer or blind as a bat.

Ok, we are trying to get a handle on power levels with this system. In our first session, my character fought 2 'bandits' in a confrontation, and we had a hard time figuring how high their prime stats, skills and such should be to be reasonable. If they should be 1/2 of the hero's points for instance, it would give an idea since 60 pts on dex would nearly max them.


Scary enemy I want the Heroes to run away from would have similar skills to them or higher. As well as some cool manuvers, equipment or powers to make them memorable. The main danger here is that large groups will kill small groups in GURPS almost no matter what skill they have. I have only once had a character win alone agains 3 enemy's and that was only because I was really lucky on my rolls. So whats out for that in your games. Your heroes will slaughter a major enemy quite easily if he is alone but might all die if confronted with 20 kobolts.

I am guessing because this is due to skills being resolved in a vaccum. If it was harder to dodge an opponent with higher weapon skill, for instance, I imagine weaker opponents would fare far more poorly. What do you think?

Also, is there other factors involved?


>>Ultimately, it would be useful for someone to run through a combat with my character (bastard sword, ST 15, DX 11, HT 14, +2 striking ST, HP 20, Hard to Kill 2, Fearless 2) vs a group of varied opponents, showing how it is done.

Sorry Don't have my GURPS stuff in this country. can't help there. Your character seams a bit overpowered for GURPS, any enemy that his a challenge for him will also be quite deadly. GURPS is often easier to grasp at a lower point total and surprisingly less deadly. My recommendation to you is to go to the Steve Jackson games site that I linked at the top and have a look at the forum. Then go to the E23 store that is on the same sight and pick up GURPS light. It is the place to start. even if you don't play the light rules you can at least get explanations there. Good luck and welcome to the grown up world.

That's understandable, was hoping someone could however. My character is built on 150 pts, without even max disadvantages. I actually have some other advantages and skills I didn't list there cause they are non-combat. 150 pts was the default for the generator, and my character generally feels like a 'somewhat heroic' but inexperienced adventurer. What is the normal starting point total that isn't 'overpowered'?

Again, such remarks are unnecessary and more then a little insulting. I appreciate what help you have given but would like to ask you to check the attitude a bit.


EDIT_II: Gurps light can be found here. And it is free. http://e23.sjgames.com/item.html?id=SJG31-0004

Cool, thanks.



Following the export advice, here is my character:

Johnathan (151 points)
Age 17; Human

ST 14 [40]; DX 11 [20]; IQ 11 [20]; HT 14 [40].
Damage 1d+2/3d-1; BL 39 lbs.; HP 20 [12]; Will 11 [0]; Per 11 [0]; FP 14 [0].
Basic Speed 6.25 [0]; Basic Move 6 [0]; Block 8 (Shield (Shield)); Dodge 9; Parry 10 (Two-Handed Sword).

Social Background
TL: 3 [0].
CF:
Languages:

Advantages
Appearance (Attractive) [4]; Charisma 1 [5]; Destiny (Major) [10]; Fearlessness 2 [4]; Fit [5]; Hard to Kill 2 [4]; Luck (_Free) [0]; Striking ST 3 [15].
Perks: Alcohol Tolerance [1].

Disadvantages
Bloodlust (15 or less) [-5]; Easy to Read [-10]; Enemy (Small guardsman's guild I refused to join.) (Medium-sized group (6-20 people)) (9 or less; Rival) [-10]; Impulsiveness (12 or less) [-10]; Motion Sickness [-10]; Mundane Background [-10]; Overconfidence (15 or less) [-2]; Sense of Duty (Small Group) [-5]; Social Stigma (Disowned) [-5].
Quirks: Broad-Minded; Code of Honor; Dull; Likes Girls; Obsession; Proud [-6].

Skills
Armoury/TL3 (Melee Weapons)-10 (IQ-1) [1]; Climbing-10 (DX-1) [1]; Crossbow-11 (DX+0) [1]; Diplomacy-9 (IQ-2) [1]; Fast-Draw (Sword)-11 (DX+0) [1]; Fast-Draw (Two-Handed Sword)-11 (DX+0) [1]; First Aid/TL3 (Human)-11 (IQ+0) [1]; Heraldry-10 (IQ-1) [1]; Hiking-13 (HT-1) [1]; Intimidation-12 (Will+1) [4]; Lance-11 (DX+0) [2]; Leadership-11 (IQ+0) [1]; Riding (Equines)-12 (DX+1) [4]; Shield (Shield)-11 (DX+0) [1]; Streetwise-10 (IQ-1) [1]; Survival (Plains)-11 (Per+0) [2]; Tactics-10 (IQ-1) [2]; Thrown Weapon (Spear)-12 (DX+1) [2]; Two-Handed Sword-15 (DX+4) [16].
(the 151th point is from last session)

Fridrik Bj
2009-07-04, 03:12 AM
>>I have the basic set. Thanks for the link to the forums, however.

Read GURPS light, even if you have the main book. It's only 30 pages and it gives you all the basics you need to get started. It also explains what is human average. I'll brake it down for you anyway

ST.
7 - 10 year old Child
9 - Small Woman
10 - Average man
11 - Fit man
12 - Athleit
14 - Power Lifter
17 - Gorilla
20 - Hercules
Other stats. break down the same way

SKILLS level after adding stats.
8 - Bad but knows it
9 - About as good as the average internet users is at grammar.
10 - Average professional
11 - Good at this
12 - Really good at this
13 - Has reputation in his profession because he's good.
15 - Best in the country
16 - Best in the world
20 - Chuck Norris

>>So, you hit and move away for a while, until you can stand and ready to hit them? Is that why its a good idea?

Because if you can hit and then move away you can hit again when they come at you the next time. But this only works if you are fast and the other one is slow. Generally a 2handed weapon is good because you do more damage but you don't defend as well.

>>You misunderstand me slightly. One of the things I dislike in GURPS is that things seem to be resolved in a vacuum. Thus, I'd like for combat to involved actively opposed rolls. So, to make this reasonable, parry and dodge would have to be a skill like weapon skills are, or linked to them, or something.

You do get an active role in your defence. You tell the GM what defence you are using, (Parry, Block or Dodge) and how you are doing it. your character blocking with a sword would give him. 3+15/2 = 10 in his block score (If you are hit you throw 3d6 and try to get this number or less). That would mean you have 50/50 chance of blocking. Add 2 or 3 to that if you retreating parry (look it up in the index) and you have about 3 in 4 change of parrying.

Now imagine someone with a shield skill of 12, medium shield and combat reflexes retreating blocking. He has 3 to start like everyone else + 12/2 = 6 for the shield skill (Total 9) +2 for the shield (Total 11) +1 for combat reflexes (Total 12) +2 for retreating (Total 14) he defends most attacks at him. You need to read up on retreating parry and all out parry. They will be your friend.

Basically your skill when attacking says things about you hitting
Your skill when defending says things about you not being hit.
I don't see that as a vacume, but you might not agree.

>>Thanks. I actually knew that rules for this existed, and was having trouble hunting them all down and putting it all together, was hoping for some aid with that.

The Index is your friend. Use it often and use it well.

>>Looking up the bastard sword, it seems that under the two-handed sword table it indeed has 1 damage higher. Is there really no other benefit at all? A true greatsword is only 1 higher then that. Seeking a system with higher simulation, I find it distressing that 3.5 DnD seemed to be better at having signifigant differences in using weapons differently.

+2 the difference from broad sword to great sword is a lot in GURPS. It scales quite differently from DnD. +2 in a skill is the difference between someone average and someone really good. Also don't foreget that the tipe of weapon you use has a modifier depending on the type of damage it does (CUT/CRUSH/PERCH)

>>Do you have some bonus to effects like knockdown or stun? To parrying?

No not really. the damage you do has that effect. How you do it does not.

>>How do you know what outcome happens? Just randomly decide?
No

Let me break it down it's not like I have anything better to do.
Both Succeed = HE gets purse and you know he took it.
You succeed and he doesn't = He doesn't get purse and you know he tried to take it.
He succeed and you didn't = He gets purse and you don't know he took it.
No one succeeds = He doesn't get purse and you don't know he tried to take it.

Question: What thiefs with a death wish tried to pick the pockets of a giant of a man (ST15 and 20HP) with a great sword over his back? Didn't they read Conan? Don't they realise that a man that big can rip there arms out of the socket without breaking a sweat?
Any Critical successes would make the one getting criticals succeed automaticly in doing something cool.

>>Appreciate the snipe and insulting remarks. I'm sorry I was not politically correct enough to say "overcomes a signifigant challenge". If you strongly believe against rewarding your players for sucess, I suppose that's your perogative, I hardly believe it makes you inherently more mature.

I said it because I meant it. The idea that you have to kill things to get better is a disturbing idea. How many people did you kill to learn how to tipe? or to tie your shoelaces? I believe that a success is when EVERYONE HAS FUN. If you are playing an action based game then hitting things is fun, if you are playing a romance based game then outdoing Shakespeare in prose is fun. You don't have to kill things in the romance game to get better at poetry.

I said it because I meant it. I really congratulate you for trying GURPS. I feel it's a mature thing to do. GURPS takes a more mature look at the world then DnD. I love DnD, it's a lot of fun, but I feel it's not a mature game.

Finally. This is the internet. Were a helmet and have thick hide.

>>Ok, we are trying to get a handle on power levels with this system. In our first session, my character fought 2 'bandits' in a confrontation, and we had a hard time figuring how high their prime stats, skills and such should be to be reasonable. If they should be 1/2 of the hero's points for instance, it would give an idea since 60 pts on dex would nearly max them.

Read what I said again. It's not about giving them points. They might have 200 points in gardening skills and it won't matter. All that matters is how are the important stats in comparison to the heroes. I this case a fight. An easy fight would be to give them 4 levels lower skills and 2-3 levels lower stats.
A hard fight is to give them 2 levels lower skill and 2 levels lower stats, but good armor or larger larger number of adversaries. I could make a character that would kill yours for 60 points. I can also make a the worlds best chef for 500 points. So basing enemy's on point total is doable. But ultimetly just a lot of unnecessary work for the GM.

>>I am guessing because this is due to skills being resolved in a vaccum. If it was harder to dodge an opponent with higher weapon skill, for instance, I imagine weaker opponents would fare far more poorly. What do you think?

Partially. Here are some factors
-You only get one block and one parry per round. After that it's only dodge. So multiple attacks will eventually make you dodge. (worst defence)
-You can only retreat in one direction (and only once I think) per round. So you don't get that extra defence against many attacks
-Multiple attachers can do things like get to the flanks and behind you. You get minuses for defending against flanks and rear. They get pluses. Also If someone is behind you you cant retreat.
- Finally you get minuses to your action based on the damage you took last round. So if one attack hits from a multiple attackers you get minus to the defence against the other attacks that round. Then you have even less change of defending...well you can see where this is going.
- Finally If you are stunned against one attacker you are in trouble, but might survive. Against many attackers you are dead.

>>That's understandable, was hoping someone could however. My character is built on 150 pts, without even max disadvantages. I actually have some other advantages and skills I didn't list there cause they are non-combat. 150 pts was the default for the generator, and my character generally feels like a 'somewhat heroic' but inexperienced adventurer. What is the normal starting point total that isn't 'overpowered'?

My answer lies on 20HP and ST15.

HP20 is bit high. Even for someone with ST15. I think this will become apparent when you play GURPS longer. This is why most GMs don't allow you to have HP higher then ST+2

Example:
Someone with a Halbert and ST12 (Rugby player ST) can only knock you unconscious by hitting you in the torso if he gets Max damage and you have no armor. (1d6+2 for ST, +4 for Weapon = 2d6+2 = 14 MAX, multiply by 1.5 because it's a cutting = 21) The same damage could kill someone with 10 HP. You have hard to kill (2) so it's really hard for you to fail death saves. That means someone has to do 120 (negative HP*5) points of damage to be sure he kills you (that is a rugby player hitting your character with a halberd 9-10 times (Average damage 9*1.5=13). For me that is a bit over the top.

ST15.
A bit high,really Conan the barbarian ST. This is the end of human norm. If that is what your character is about, then great. Your character should do about 3d6+1 in damage with his sword. Average 11. That is really high for GURPD

I have played characters like this in GURPS. The problem becomes apparent when the GM sends an Enemy against you that does enough damage to be dangerous to you and has enough HP to survive your first 2-3 strikes. That enemy will kill the week wizard the other player has without trying (Really, he will hit him once and kill him and the GM will go WOOPS!) and be unkillable for the thief character the 3rd player has because he has so many HP or so much armour.

What I tend to do when making characters is to make a well rounded character and spread my points into lots of useful skills and advantages. For example these are skills I would try to have on my character in GURPS Fantasy. How man of these does your character have at level higher then 10?
- Stealth
- First Aid
- Riding Horses
- Survival (any)
- Area Knowledge
- Fast Talk
- Streetwise
- Savior Fair
- Swimming
- Brawling
- Knife
- Climbing
- Hiking
- Intimidation
- Occultism
- Naturalist
- Tactics

>>Again, such remarks are unnecessary and more then a little insulting. I appreciate what help you have given but would like to ask you to check the attitude a bit.

I said It because I mean it. It's a compliment. I know players that are getting close to 40 years old and still don't play in the grown up world, I also know 10 year old kids who want a realistic game.

Again Congratulation for Discovering GURPS. Hope you like the stay.

Kizara
2009-07-04, 03:48 AM
One of the main reasons I wished to learn to play GURPS is that it seemed to offer a more realistic and complex combat simulation (as well as simulating non-combat tasks with more depth and not having DnD's 'skill creep').

I'm wondering if I am still going to have to do signifigant homebrewing or use some alternate/advanced rules to get the level of simulation I want.


Here's some points on what you said (thanks btw, you are giving some great information):

- How feasible is it for this to be how basic combat works?

1) Attack with weapon (3d6 + skill)
2) Roll defense (3d6 + skill? (maybe need to rework the defenses to be more comparable to skills or something) )

Compare the values, if you got higher you hit. Seems pretty intuitive to me, if I can get the current values for dodge/parry etc to mesh better.

- On +2 being a big difference, I don't see how 2 more damage on 3d -1 (making 3d +1) is wroth not having a shield, or adequately represents how big of an advantage in combat you have from your increased reach and threatened area from a 2-hander vs a guy with a dagger. The main reason 2-handed weapons were used were the 'impact' factor (along with range) against armored opponents; hence my questions about knockdown and such.

- On versusing many opponents. A lot of what you are saying makes a lot of tactical sense with swarm tactics. One thing I would add is that I can see making a "Cleave" advantage that allowed you to strike-through a felled target into a second. A bit cinematic, but not overly so.

-On my character, I see what you mean but the intention is to play a slightly heroic character and for the time being its a solo campaign as we are mainly trying to learn the system and playing a combat-hungry character in such a lethal setting seemed to beg itself to me to get more hit points. :)

I can totally understand what you are saying regarding min/max creating problems for other characters, but in this circumstance that's not really an issue.

As for the 15 ST, I went back and forth over it many times because of the roleplaying implications. I went for 15 instead of 14 at the end because:

1) I really did want to roleplay an exceptionally strong character.
2) Its just such an efficent and obvious use of points.

As for skills, you can see it here:

Johnathan Archer (152 points)
Age 17; Human

ST 15 [50]; DX 11 [20]; IQ 11 [20]; HT 14 [40].
Damage 1d+2/3d-1; BL 45 lbs.; HP 20 [10]; Will 11 [0]; Per 11 [0]; FP 14 [0].
Basic Speed 6.25 [0]; Basic Move 6 [0]; Block 8 (Shield (Shield)); Dodge 9; Parry 10 (Two-Handed Sword).

Social Background
TL: 3 [0].
CF:
Languages:

Advantages
Appearance (Attractive) [4]; Charisma 1 [5]; Destiny (Major) [10]; Fearlessness 2 [4]; Fit [5]; Hard to Kill 2 [4]; Luck (_Free) [0]; Striking ST 2 [10].
Perks: Alcohol Tolerance [1].

Disadvantages
Bloodlust (15 or less) [-5]; Easy to Read [-10]; Enemy (Small guardsman's guild I refused to join.) (Medium-sized group (6-20 people)) (9 or less; Rival) [-10]; Impulsiveness (12 or less) [-10]; Motion Sickness [-10]; Mundane Background [-10]; Overconfidence (15 or less) [-2]; Sense of Duty (Small Group) [-5]; Social Stigma (Disowned) [-5].
Quirks: Broad-Minded; Code of Honor; Dull; Likes Girls; Obsession; Proud [-6].

Skills
Armoury/TL3 (Melee Weapons)-10 (IQ-1) [1]; Climbing-10 (DX-1) [1]; Crossbow-11 (DX+0) [1]; Diplomacy-9 (IQ-2) [1]; Fast-Draw (Sword)-11 (DX+0) [1]; Fast-Draw (Two-Handed Sword)-11 (DX+0) [1]; First Aid/TL3 (Human)-11 (IQ+0) [1]; Heraldry-10 (IQ-1) [1]; Hiking-13 (HT-1) [1]; Intimidation-12 (Will+1) [4]; Leadership-11 (IQ+0) [1]; Riding (Equines)-12 (DX+1) [4]; Shield (Shield)-11 (DX+0) [1]; Streetwise-10 (IQ-1) [1]; Survival (Plains)-11 (Per+0) [2]; Tactics-10 (IQ-1) [2]; Thrown Weapon (Spear)-12 (DX+1) [2]; Two-Handed Sword-15 (DX+4) [16].


what he's got. Since skills are so incredibly points-hungry to have higher ranks in them, I didn't have a lot to put there. My intention was to make my character able to safely win basic fights, so I focused my efforts there. The roleplaying concept is a fairly cliche' mercenary type that lives by his sword (there's considerably more backstory, but that's not the point of this thread).

Fridrik Bj
2009-07-04, 05:25 AM
>>I'm wondering if I am still going to have to do signifigant homebrewing or use some alternate/advanced rules to get the level of simulation I want.

Feel free. But just watch out. If you implement the changes you just made you cut out a lot of the realism. It makes high skill people immune to many low skilled people.

If I where you I would try it out as is a few times, get a good grasp on the system...And then change the things I don't like.

>>On +2 being a big difference

Think of it this way. The average human has 10hp. +2 is 20% of his hitpoints. furthermore, it only takes half his hitpoint to cripple a limb in one shot. So then it's +40%. GURPS just scales differently then DnD. +2 is a big deal there.

>>One thing I would add is that I can see making a "Cleave" advantage

Look up Trained by master and weapon master. Then read the cinematic rules. With cinematic rules, skill over 15 and weapon master you can make 4 attacks in a round. More if you all-out attack. (look up All-out attack while your at it). But those are the Cinematic rules you can take and leave them as you want.

Have fun

dariathalon
2009-07-04, 06:12 AM
First, let me apologize for what will probably look like complete rambling. This thread is very text heavy and I just sort of read it with a notepad open replying as I saw fit. Hopefully you can glean something of use from all of this.

-----

Opposed skills

There seems to be some pretty big misconceptions about these. Most opposed skill checks will either call for a quick contest or a regular contest. Pickpocketing, since that was your example is a quick contest. That means he rolls his pickpocketing skill you roll either your perception or streetwise, and whoever has the greatest margin of success wins (if both fail, then it is the one with the smallest margin of failure).
Examples: Joe the Pickpocket has a pickpocket skill of 16. Maggie the victim has a preception of 12.

Situation 1: Joe rolls 14, Maggie rolls 9. Maggie wins and Joe doesn't successfully get her money.
Situation 2: Joe rolls 11, Maggie rolls 10. Joe wins and gets her money.
Situation 3: Joe rolls 12, Maggie rolls 8. A tie, so there's no clear winner, usually GM describes a situation in which both characters are equally inconvenienced. (Maybe they both reached into her purse at once.)

The situation might be a regular contest, like an arm-wrestling contest. These are situations where the results are not determined immediately by a single roll. If both parties succeed or both parties fail, neither wins and they reroll. This continues until one person succeeds and the other fails.

-----

The reason reach is a good thing, is it generally gives you more options in combat. A reach 1 weapon can only attack into three forward facing hexes. A reach 2 weapon can attack into five forward facing hexes. If it is reach 1 or 2 that makes eight spaces the opponent can be in and you can hit them. Though, yes, being able to hit them before they hit you is important too.

-----

The best way to make defenses rely on the attacker's skills is to make frequent use of feints (pg. 325). Basically, the attacker spends one action feinting his opponent. You make a quick contest. If the attacker succeeds on his attack roll (and does so by more than the defender succeeded his), the margin of success is subtracted from the defender's active defenses against attacks made by you for the next round.
Ex: Attacker has skill 14, Defender has skill 12.
Situation 1: Attacker rolls 10, Defender rolls 11. Attacker succeded by 3 more than defender, so defender takes a -3 to block, parry, or dodge the attackers attacks next round.
Situation 2: Attacker rolls 13, Defender rolls 10. Both succeeded, but since defender succeeded more, the feint has no effect.
Situation 3: Attacker rolls 15, Defender rolls 16. Since the attacker failed, the feint is unsuccessful.

Another thing you can do to make parries more dependent on the attackers skill is to have the attackers make "deceptive strikes". Basically, the attacker chooses to subtract a multiple of two from his attack roll. If he hits, the defender must subtract half the attacker's penalty from his defense roll.
Ex: Attacker has a skill of 16, defender has a dodge of 12. The attacker chooses to subtract 4 from his attack roll, meaning he is now rolling against skill 12. If he still hits, the defender must subtract 2 (half of the 4 penalty) from his defenses, meaning he is now rolling against a dodge of 10.

-----

A problem with your comparison of the bastard sword and great sword. Where you are looking up bastard swords on the two-handed sword table. You should be comparing it to the bastard sword on the Broadsword (1-handed) table. You'll notice the damage is lower still, though not by much since GURPS bases damage on strength and modifies it by weapon instead of the other way around like D&D. The big difference to note though is under parry. On the broadsword table (showing 1-handed use) the parry is 0U, meaning that if you use the bastard sword to parry in one hand it becomes unready and you must take a ready action before attacking with it again. The only way to avoid this is putting the second hand on the sword (thereby using the 2-handed sword skill and getting a small damage boost) or by having a high enough strength score (1.5 times minimum str so 15 for a bastard sword.)

Also, remember that those little damage modifiers of +1 or +2 don't seem like such a big thing, but when you are doing cutting or impaling damage, anything that breaks through DR gets multiplied.

After looking over your character sheet, I also see you have an effective striking strength of 17. That is EXTREMELY HIGH! When you look at a character with a more average strength, one or two points is a lot bigger deal. 3d+1 damage is a huge deal in GURPS, remember the average person can get stunned and knocked down 5 points of damage or knocked unconcious by 10 points of damage. Compare them to your damage. Your sword's (unlikely) minimum is 4 and averages 11.5

-----

For morale, basically you're dealing with individual characters advantages and disadvantages. If things get particularly nasty, the GM could call for a fright check, but outside of disadvantages or mind-affecting magic and the like, those should be pretty rare.

-----

To help you get a handle on appropriate challenges, you might consider running through (or at least reading through) "Caravan to Ein Arris". It is a short adventure meant as an introduction to the game that you can download for free from their e23 site for free. That should show you approximately how tough encounters should be for characters built on 125 points. Be sure you get the one for 4e.

-----

100-200 points is fairly typical for the sort of campaign you're playing. There really is no average since GURPS can cover so many different power levels. Heck one of the characters in the back was built on over 1500!

-----

In general, the more depth you want, the more optional rules you should use. However, don't try to use everything at once. GURPS is a very rich and deep system. If you try to use everything all at once, you'll find yourself drowning in it's depths. My suggestion is to start small. Use the more basic rules. As things come up that you don't know how to deal with look them up. Then as you start to get comfortable with those rules, start reading up on some of the advanced rules and integrating them. Don't even think about trying to homebrew anything until you are very well-versed in the rules as they are supposed to work. I'm sure you've seen people trying to homebrew things in D&D that you know have no business doing so because they just don't understand the system well enough. The same sin is possible in GURPS.

Your roll+skill mechanic isn't really much different than the current mechanic. I think your just more comfortable with it because of the roll+modifier mechanic in d20. Honestly, stick with the GURPS mechanic, as you get more familiar with it and the way that it interacts with the many modifiers in the system you'll probably grow to accept it. Actually, as you come to appreciate it, you'll see that this system leads to much more tactical combats where opponents are carefully considering their actions and taking more daring (and interesting!) choices of moves.

As far as your cleave idea. I could see it in a cinematic game. Heck, there might even be a rule for it somewhere. However, if I were going to homebrew it, I wouldn't make it an advantage. I'd make it a maneuver.

-----

As for not having enough points to put into skills, that is why most people put higher scores in DX and IQ, that way the skills don't cost as much to get to higher levels.

-----

If you have any other questions feel free to ask. As for your question about someone running you through a simple combat. I suppose I could do that if you really wanted. I admit I'm not the most experienced with GURPS, but I know enough, I think. Still, it's probably best to see if you get any other volunteers.

mikeejimbo
2009-07-04, 09:30 AM
If you're very interested in melee combat in GURPS, after you get used to the combat rules, I'd suggest picking up GURPS Martial Arts. It includes cinematic maneuvers you might like.

Xplo
2009-07-04, 09:07 PM
So, you hit and move away for a while, until you can stand and ready to hit them? Is that why its a good idea?

Reach is good for a few things.

First, if you've got, say, a pike or something, then you can stand behind a buddy. The buddy keeps the enemy from closing with you, so you can't get hurt, but while the enemy's busy fighting with buddy, you can reach past buddy with your weapon and poke at the enemy.

(This works better in mass combat situations, where you have a line of pikemen behind a line of buddies, so that the enemy can't just run around the side to get at you.)

Second, if you're fighting one-on-on with someone and you don't mind giving ground, you can keep him from closing. It works like this: on your turn, with a few hexes distance between you, take a Wait maneuver and say you're going to attack the guy if he comes in range. On his turn, if he tries to Step in, you whack him and then take a Step back. He's no closer to you than he was, and you basically got a free shot in. Rinse and repeat. Alternately, if he tries to run in, you'll still get your shot when he's in range. Since he either has to make a running attack (with a Wild Swing at the end) or an All-Out Attack (sacrificing defense) to get close enough to hit you, you still get the first shot and he's at some disadvantage.

Third, more reach lets you stand further away from an enemy and still be able to hit him with a normal Step and Attack.


I'd like for combat to involved actively opposed rolls. So, to make this reasonable, parry and dodge would have to be a skill like weapon skills are, or linked to them, or something.

They are linked. Block is based on your Shield skill. Parry is based on your skill with whatever weapon you're parrying with. (Dodge isn't linked to a skill, but if you buy up Acrobatics, you can attempt an Acrobatic Dodge once a turn, which gives you a bonus to that dodge attempt.)

Also, Deceptive Attack is your friend here. It's an option you can use with any attack: for every -2 you take to your hit roll, they get a -1 to defense. Think about it: if you reduce your skill to somewhere in the 12-14 range, you still have a pretty good chance to hit and they have a harder time defending. Or, if you have a really high skill, you can drop your effective skill to 16, which doesn't hurt your chances at all (because a 17 or 18 always fails anyway) but makes it harder for them to defend than it would be if they were being attacked by someone with skill 16 not using a Deceptive Attack.

Note that this combines with any other modifiers to hit. So if you try to do a Deceptive Attack (-2) to the vitals (-3, I think) then you're attacking at -5. At lower skill levels, this means that you have to decide between doing a less damaging attack that's more likely to get past their defense, or gambling on a more damaging attack that they might be able to defend against, or trying a really difficult attack that does more damage and is harder to defend against, but that you have a good chance of screwing up. At higher skill levels, it means that you can be a badass who's hard to defend against even when you're making targeted attacks, fighting in the dark while hanging upside down from a flaming rope, or whatever.

The books don't really make a big deal about Deceptive Attack, but it really affects the way combat works for highly skilled characters.


I find it distressing that 3.5 DnD seemed to be better at having signifigant differences in using weapons differently.

Two swords that are nearly the same size aren't going to have significant differences. Besides, it's not like they were all that different in D&D 3.5 anyway. D8 vs. D10, isn't it? That's only two points, and it's not even a straight bonus.


Ok, we are trying to get a handle on power levels with this system. In our first session, my character fought 2 'bandits' in a confrontation, and we had a hard time figuring how high their prime stats, skills and such should be to be reasonable. If they should be 1/2 of the hero's points for instance, it would give an idea since 60 pts on dex would nearly max them.

Bandits are pretty ordinary thugs, mostly. Attributes around 10, combat skills around 10 or so. If you want your bandits a bit tougher, give them ST 11 and combat skills around 12, and some armor; this makes them almost a match for a typical soldier.

You gotta keep in mind that point totals aren't necessarily useful as a "challenge rating". Someone with 200 points could be an expert sage or a nobleman and not stand a chance against your PC in combat.


150 pts was the default for the generator, and my character generally feels like a 'somewhat heroic' but inexperienced adventurer. What is the normal starting point total that isn't 'overpowered'?

150 is pretty standard for heroic fantasy.

Kizara
2009-07-05, 05:23 AM
Xplo:

First of all, fantastically useful post, although it leaves me with some more questions.



Reach is good for a few things.

First, if you've got, say, a pike or something, then you can stand behind a buddy. The buddy keeps the enemy from closing with you, so you can't get hurt, but while the enemy's busy fighting with buddy, you can reach past buddy with your weapon and poke at the enemy.

(This works better in mass combat situations, where you have a line of pikemen behind a line of buddies, so that the enemy can't just run around the side to get at you.)

Second, if you're fighting one-on-on with someone and you don't mind giving ground, you can keep him from closing. It works like this: on your turn, with a few hexes distance between you, take a Wait maneuver and say you're going to attack the guy if he comes in range. On his turn, if he tries to Step in, you whack him and then take a Step back. He's no closer to you than he was, and you basically got a free shot in. Rinse and repeat. Alternately, if he tries to run in, you'll still get your shot when he's in range. Since he either has to make a running attack (with a Wild Swing at the end) or an All-Out Attack (sacrificing defense) to get close enough to hit you, you still get the first shot and he's at some disadvantage.

Third, more reach lets you stand further away from an enemy and still be able to hit him with a normal Step and Attack.

I understand how line tactics work, what I didn't realize is how with the minutae of this system how you took advantage of reach. You have done a great job showing me how though. :)

Thank you. I knew there was a way I could mine this for free attacks! This is exactly how it works in Mount & Blade too, which is what drove me to desire a higher degree of combat simulation.



They are linked. Block is based on your Shield skill. Parry is based on your skill with whatever weapon you're parrying with. (Dodge isn't linked to a skill, but if you buy up Acrobatics, you can attempt an Acrobatic Dodge once a turn, which gives you a bonus to that dodge attempt.)

Also, Deceptive Attack is your friend here. It's an option you can use with any attack: for every -2 you take to your hit roll, they get a -1 to defense. Think about it: if you reduce your skill to somewhere in the 12-14 range, you still have a pretty good chance to hit and they have a harder time defending. Or, if you have a really high skill, you can drop your effective skill to 16, which doesn't hurt your chances at all (because a 17 or 18 always fails anyway) but makes it harder for them to defend than it would be if they were being attacked by someone with skill 16 not using a Deceptive Attack.

Note that this combines with any other modifiers to hit. So if you try to do a Deceptive Attack (-2) to the vitals (-3, I think) then you're attacking at -5. At lower skill levels, this means that you have to decide between doing a less damaging attack that's more likely to get past their defense, or gambling on a more damaging attack that they might be able to defend against, or trying a really difficult attack that does more damage and is harder to defend against, but that you have a good chance of screwing up. At higher skill levels, it means that you can be a badass who's hard to defend against even when you're making targeted attacks, fighting in the dark while hanging upside down from a flaming rope, or whatever.

The books don't really make a big deal about Deceptive Attack, but it really affects the way combat works for highly skilled characters.

While I'm still not completely satisfied with the defensive rolls and offensive rolls being made independantly (just like I thought RAW 3.5 Tumble was BS and promptly made it an opposed check, and my games have been better for it); this is at least tolerable. Some questions tho:

Where is Deceptive Attack? It's not listed in the "combat lite" section at the back of characters, so I assume its hidden in the imtimidating second book. Also, where are the rules about hit locations/aimed hits? That's exactly the sort of thing I came here (to GURPS) for!



Two swords that are nearly the same size aren't going to have significant differences. Besides, it's not like they were all that different in D&D 3.5 anyway. D8 vs. D10, isn't it? That's only two points, and it's not even a straight bonus.

The complaint isn't so much blade size as 2H vs 1H styles. I'm aware that 2Hers are overpowered in 3.5 (due to Power Attack primariy, but also from how it multiplies strength). In reality, the kind of blow you can land with something (say, a bastard sword) with one hand vs a two-handed swing isn't a 10% difference, its like a 50% difference. Thus +1 damage seems miserly. The most telling point comes when you look at the same sword (bastard sword) on the 2 different tables, and see only a single point difference. Not much of an offensive power increase, unless two-handing has other benefits hidden elsewhere.

I'm aware that going purely offensive is foolish in a realistic system because of the whole "it only takes 1-2 hits to kill you" bit, but if nothing else it shouldn't be nearly completely meaningless, just short-lived. Also, for the record, the character does have a shield and I intend on using it sometimes.



Bandits are pretty ordinary thugs, mostly. Attributes around 10, combat skills around 10 or so. If you want your bandits a bit tougher, give them ST 11 and combat skills around 12, and some armor; this makes them almost a match for a typical soldier.

You gotta keep in mind that point totals aren't necessarily useful as a "challenge rating". Someone with 200 points could be an expert sage or a nobleman and not stand a chance against your PC in combat.

150 is pretty standard for heroic fantasy.

Cool, thanks.


Dariathalon:


Thank you for your discussion and clarification of the opposed skill rolls, I'm still not confident with it but I have a better idea now.

As for the high striking strength, I see what you mean. I went out of my way to get it there cause it bumps it to the next die type. I also couldn't really find anywhere else to put points that would help him fight since I couldn't find a "parry" skill and I hit the ceiling with the 15 strength.

I'll check out that "Caravan to Ein Arris" you mentioned, many thanks.

I have to agree with you on the Hombrewing front. I know what bothers me and what I'd like it to be like, but my extremely passing understanding of the system makes it impossible to make any kind of non-hackneyed houseruling. I guess I'll have to suffer through it, but I'm concerned that my friend who has limited patience these days will be willing to re-think how he does challenges/rolling at such a fundamental level.

Saying "Ok, in this system we use 3d6 and the modifiers are small, and this is how you arrive at them" isn't a big stretch, but trying to wrap your head around "roll under skill" comparitatively is, because to adjust for difficulty of situation you have to lower your target number by a small amount instead of assigning a scaling higher DC. Also, the whole "after 16 more is generally useless" bit is silly. The difference between 'good' and 'very good' is there, but after that you max out almost immediately. Yes, I didn't like the way 3.5's skills got completely out of hand by 6th level ethier, but it was at least much more intuitative if broken in excecution.


NEW QUESTIONS:

Where can I find an expanded equipment list? For a system that's so deep in some ways, it is lacking some very important things in it's equipment lists. The higher-tech lists are even more sparse. One thing I particularly noticed was there was nothing at all for horses or other mounts.

On that note, where are the mounted combat rules? I will doubtless have questions on them after reviewing as well.

And on that train of thought, what book has something like a beastiary? Noone I play with is going to want to have to boil-up every creature on the spot with a system we still barely know. I can do it with 3.5 (I rarely use an MM now, despite owning 5), but only after playing the system for like 6 years. The 'humanoid mook' thing is doable, and I appreciate the guidelines you both have given me, but there's a lot of wierder stuff I don't want to have to put-togther and adjust dozens of different things for each time.

dariathalon
2009-07-05, 02:52 PM
As for the high striking strength, I see what you mean. I went out of my way to get it there cause it bumps it to the next die type. I also couldn't really find anywhere else to put points that would help him fight since I couldn't find a "parry" skill and I hit the ceiling with the 15 strength.


Looking at your character, you missed out on what I consider to be the two most important advantages for a melee fighter. Combat Reflexes and High Pain Threshold. I won't describe them since you can easily look them up, but if you have questions on them, feel free to ask.


Saying "Ok, in this system we use 3d6 and the modifiers are small, and this is how you arrive at them" isn't a big stretch, but trying to wrap your head around "roll under skill" comparitatively is, because to adjust for difficulty of situation you have to lower your target number by a small amount instead of assigning a scaling higher DC. Also, the whole "after 16 more is generally useless" bit is silly. The difference between 'good' and 'very good' is there, but after that you max out almost immediately. Yes, I didn't like the way 3.5's skills got completely out of hand by 6th level ethier, but it was at least much more intuitative if broken in excecution.

Yeah, it does take a bit of adjustment. Skills above 16 are generally less useful, but as you get more experienced with the system, you'll see that they do have important uses. For example...

Melee Combat. I want to attack the opponent's neck (-5 penalty) or make a deceptive strike (-4 penalty is pretty common) or maybe a rapid strike (allows 2 attacks, but each is a -6). My opponent did some damage to me last round, and I don't have high pain threshold (up to -4 penalty). As you can see the penalties can easily begin to stack up. Also, since your ability to parry is based on your skill, having a higher skill will help you parry. It usually takes a skill of 26 to get a parry of 16.

Magic. The amount of ritual required (gestures, magic words) reduces with higher skill. The amount of fatigue taken and time required also does. Spell saves are based on a quick contest, so higher skill will be important. Even magic spells can take penalties (from damage, from being in a low mana area, etc.)

Mundane skills. You can find shelter in the swamp easily w/ Survival 16, but can you do so during a hurricane with no survival equipment (total of -10 penalty). Also having a higher skill can help you default to several other skills more easily.


NEW QUESTIONS:

Where can I find an expanded equipment list? For a system that's so deep in some ways, it is lacking some very important things in it's equipment lists. The higher-tech lists are even more sparse. One thing I particularly noticed was there was nothing at all for horses or other mounts.

Expanded equipment lists are generally found in other supplements. Since GURPS is such a generalized system it would be difficult to put everything a character in any setting might desire in one place. They tried to cover the basics in the Basic Set, but probably didn't get everything you might want. There are prices for some mounts in the Campaigns book in the chapter on animals. It gives a base price for most mounts as well as some guidelines for purchasing horses with better skills or stats.


On that note, where are the mounted combat rules? I will doubtless have questions on them after reviewing as well.

In the Campaigns book, somewhere near the hit-location rules, I believe. Yes Pg. 396 (just checked). Though I'm not very familiar with these rules. I don't think I've played a character who rode a mount since 3ed, and even then not too often.


And on that train of thought, what book has something like a beastiary? Noone I play with is going to want to have to boil-up every creature on the spot with a system we still barely know. I can do it with 3.5 (I rarely use an MM now, despite owning 5), but only after playing the system for like 6 years. The 'humanoid mook' thing is doable, and I appreciate the guidelines you both have given me, but there's a lot of wierder stuff I don't want to have to put-togther and adjust dozens of different things for each time.

The Campaigns book has some beasts (in the same chapter as horse prices). As far as others go, I just checked e23 (the sjgames download shop) and it looks like the "Creatures of the Night" series might be promising. I've never looked through it though, so I'm not sure. Most other supplements will have some appropriate monsters for its setting though.

Cybren
2009-07-05, 03:11 PM
GURPS Low Tech is coming out soon, which will have both expanded and more detailed rules on things like medieval armors, but also more low-tech (that is, pre-TL 5) equipment.

High-Tech, Bio-Tech, Ultra-Tech all have expanded equipment rules, but less relevant towards a typical fantasy campaign. Martial Arts has a lot more weapons, and Magic has, obviously, stuff about magical equipment or alchemical elixirs.

Xplo
2009-07-05, 05:28 PM
Where is Deceptive Attack? It's not listed in the "combat lite" section at the back of characters, so I assume its hidden in the imtimidating second book. Also, where are the rules about hit locations/aimed hits? That's exactly the sort of thing I came here (to GURPS) for!

I don't have my books with me right now, but I'm pretty sure it's all in "the intimidating second book".

You seem pretty literate; why don't you try reading the books again, or at least trying to find the parts you're confused about? I appreciate that you find it easier to get people on the internet to answer your questions, but we're not your research assistants. Put a little effort in so we don't feel like you're wasting our time because you value it less than yours.


In reality, the kind of blow you can land with something (say, a bastard sword) with one hand vs a two-handed swing isn't a 10% difference, its like a 50% difference. Thus +1 damage seems miserly. The most telling point comes when you look at the same sword (bastard sword) on the 2 different tables, and see only a single point difference. Not much of an offensive power increase, unless two-handing has other benefits hidden elsewhere.

Well, it's necessary for bigger weapons, unless you have a high enough ST. That's kind of like a benefit.

Other than that, I'd need to see some kind of study or experiment measuring the force generated by one-handed vs. two-handed swings before I accepted your numbers. I mean, it makes intuitive sense that you can swing big things harder with two hands, but I'm not sure it's a 50% difference. (In fact, I suspect it's not linear at all; it would depend on how strong you are, how heavy your weapon is, how the weapon is shaped, and how you're using it. The majority of two-handed sword use really isn't swinging for the fences, for instance; those swords mostly saw battlefield use, and that kind of thing leaves you wide open.)

Just how much damage do you think someone can do with a two-handed sword? You can't cut trees down with one; heck, you probably can't even cut a body in half with one - not unless it's held taut and braced at just the right angle. Historically speaking, even a two-handed sword couldn't chop through metal armor. There might not actually be all that much damage difference between a one-handed sword and a two-handed sword, and since you can't do fractional points of damage in GURPS, they had to stick the bastard sword somewhere in the middle.


I'm concerned that my friend who has limited patience these days will be willing to re-think how he does challenges/rolling at such a fundamental level.

It's a game mechanic, not a religion. You're supposed to be having fun. Offer your friend a tall, frosty glass of perspective.


Also, the whole "after 16 more is generally useless" bit is silly. The difference between 'good' and 'very good' is there, but after that you max out almost immediately.

A lot of people say that because they don't know how to drag effective skill down without feeling arbitrarily punitive.

Here's the thing. If someone has a high skill and you want to challenge him, give him harder challenges. So you have a 16 in Lockpicking and you can pick any lock? Great - here's an particularly well-crafted lock. You're at -2 to effective skill to pick it. Still easy? Okay - but you're trying to escape from prison, and you're picking the lock with a twisty stick and a dagger (-4) that you took from the guy that you strangled outside your cell, and it's dark in here (-2). Oh, and pick fast - you can hear the guards coming, so you only have seconds instead of minutes (let's say another -2 to rush the job), and you have to get it right on the first shot because you won't get another chance.

Still feel like an expert? The guy with skill 16 is very good, but snapping open a good lock with a twisty stick with one quick try is crazy talk. You'd have to be some kind of legendary master to pull that trick off.

So instead of thinking "nothing matters after 16", think "you start to become increasingly badass after 16". 16 is the "black belt" level where the true learning begins. Any fighter worth his salt can fight an orc on a plain in the daytime. Real legendary heroes fight an orc in the dark, in a sticky swamp, while trying not to succumb to a deadly poison that's spreading through their veins, after they haven't slept for two days, using an improvised weapon. Or something like that. The level where skills start to pass completely beyond the limits of realism and there's not much point in buying them any higher unless you want to be able to do things so silly they strain your suspension of disbelief is closer to 25. At that point, what you really want to be doing is looking for ways to broaden your ability.

Really, it's no different than high level D&D 3.x characters needing ridiculously high DC challenges.


Where can I find an expanded equipment list? For a system that's so deep in some ways, it is lacking some very important things in it's equipment lists. The higher-tech lists are even more sparse.

There's only so much room in the Basic books; they had to settle for representative samples for weapons and armor, and "figure it out yourself" for everything else (especially the futuristic gear, where there's nothing real to base stats on). The gear books you're looking for are Low-Tech (recently in playtesting, and expected out later this year, IIRC), High-Tech, and Ultra-Tech.


On that note, where are the mounted combat rules? I will doubtless have questions on them after reviewing as well.

Intimidating second book, IIRC.


And on that train of thought, what book has something like a beastiary? Noone I play with is going to want to have to boil-up every creature on the spot with a system we still barely know. I can do it with 3.5 (I rarely use an MM now, despite owning 5), but only after playing the system for like 6 years. The 'humanoid mook' thing is doable, and I appreciate the guidelines you both have given me, but there's a lot of wierder stuff I don't want to have to put-togther and adjust dozens of different things for each time.

One of the most common requests from new players (as far as I can tell) is a bestiary. There mostly isn't one, and the reason is that people argued for years over what they wanted to see in it (both in terms of what kind of creatures were included, and how much information there is about each creature). Eventually they realized that making everyone happy, or even most people happy, was an impossible task. The current plan is to have a lot of themed mini-bestiaries available on e23, and then people can just get the kind of creatures they want.

It's worth keeping in mind that monster stats are technically part of a world design. D&D has the luxury of saying, "this is what OUR troll is like". GURPS can't assume that you're playing in any particular setting, so any assumption the writers try to make might not apply in your world. Do you want a D&D troll, all tall and skinny with regeneration? Or do you want a bridge troll that's all stout and muscular, like a dwarf crossed with a monkey? Or do you want a scandinavian troll as big as a two-story house?

That said, there are a few volumes of horror creatures, but I think that's about it. SJG has a limited amount of writers (many of them freelance) and a limited editing staff, and a limited budget for paying them to write and edit things, and they're busy with other projects, so the bestiaries are getting neglected.

Knaight
2009-07-05, 06:14 PM
That said, I would be very surprised if you couldn't find creatures on the GURPS forums. And it is a bit easier to start whipping up creatures than in D&D, there is a bit less to worry about when dealing with combat.

warmachine
2009-07-05, 07:01 PM
Where is Deceptive Attack? It's not listed in the "combat lite" section at the back of characters, so I assume its hidden in the imtimidating second book. Also, where are the rules about hit locations/aimed hits? That's exactly the sort of thing I came here (to GURPS) for!
You're kidding us, right? You can't find the entries Deceptive Attack and Hit location in the index?

Fridrik Bj
2009-07-05, 07:32 PM
You seem pretty literate; why don't you try reading the books again, or at least trying to find the parts you're confused about? I appreciate that you find it easier to get people on the internet to answer your questions, but we're not your research assistants. Put a little effort in so we don't feel like you're wasting our time because you value it less than yours.

Second. If you can't be bothered to read the book, then I can't be bothered to help. Time is precious to me and everyone else.

mikeejimbo
2009-07-05, 07:50 PM
I That said, there are a few volumes of horror creatures, but I think that's about it. SJG has a limited amount of writers (many of them freelance) and a limited editing staff, and a limited budget for paying them to write and edit things, and they're busy with other projects, so the bestiaries are getting neglected.

A bestiary also isn't high on their priority list, actually. I think this is mostly because people are quite capable of creating their own creatures. I remember reading a section about how to customize creatures a bit, though, and Dungeon Fantasy has not only a few more creatures that are geared toward, well, Dungeon Fantasy, but also rough guidelines for creating more creatures. GURPS Fantasy has some character templates for things like dwarves and elves (as well as Dungeon Fantasy, except the latter is more geared toward, again, diving into a dungeon, killing monsters and taking their stuff.) There are also creatures under the "Worlds" chapter.

Third Edition DID have a bestiary (a few, actually.) There are some differences between third and fourth, of course, but you could use one of those with just a bit of converting work.

Fhaolan
2009-07-05, 09:12 PM
As a note, if you're interested in more weapons and more combat stuff in general, pick up the Martial Arts book for 4th edition. It's not just guys in pajamas kicking each other, it includes Medieval Knightly Combat techniques, World War II knife-fighting, etc. The editor/writers realized, correctly, that the term Martial Artist used to mean someone with exceptional combat training. Not someone trained in unarmed combat, but *all* combat. A Cavalier is just as much a martial artist as a Ninja, in GURPS.

You probably will also need the 'Fantasy' book, as it will have more specific info for fantasy campaigns. For those people who have only ever played D&D before, I recommend the 'Dungeon Fantasy Adventures' booklets from e23. Using the options in them will give the game a more D&D feel, and it's a good idea to try that before going cold turkey all the way to a low-magic campaign.

Basically, GURPS depends on the GM building the campaign and doing a *lot* more work than in D&D. GURPS is less a game and more a toolkit that allows you to construct a game.

Be careful using sourebooks from earlier editions of GURPS. While they are 95% compatable, that 5% difference can really trip you up if you're not paying attention.

dariathalon
2009-07-05, 09:49 PM
I wanted to make something clear here. A lot of us have recommended a lot of different books to you, there are others out there that probably have useful things to offer too. That's just a reflection of how well written GURPS books tend to be. However, you can run a campaign with just what is presented in the Basic Set. The other books we've recommended are not mandatory, but for a beginning player they can make some things a little easier.

amanamana
2009-07-05, 10:06 PM
As noted above, Martial Arts is an awesome book.
There you'll find an interesting rule that improves the parrying options for two-handed long weapons, like spears and greatswords. It allows you to take half the penalties for parrying more than once with those weapons.
Besides that, there is a lot of neat stuff for any kind of warrior.

amanamana
2009-07-05, 10:16 PM
I wanted to make something clear here. A lot of us have recommended a lot of different books to you, there are others out there that probably have useful things to offer too. That's just a reflection of how well written GURPS books tend to be. However, you can run a campaign with just what is presented in the Basic Set. The other books we've recommended are not mandatory, but for a beginning player they can make some things a little easier.

That is very true! I've had lots of games with only the basic set.
IMHO, you can't go wrong with the basic + Martial Arts. Also, Magic, if it's going to be that kind of campaign where wizards learn spells (just learning, not casting) like D&D ones. But if they will only know very few spells and take a lot to learn new ones, you can do the "spells" with the Advantages.

best of luck.

Sebastian
2009-07-06, 03:44 AM
Kizara, while I agree with the others that GURPS is a great system maybe you could want to check the JAGS system (www.jagsrpg.org) , from what you said it seems to have what are you searching for in a combat system like opposite checks for parrying and dodging (the higher you roll to hit, the harder is to dodge/parry your hit) or use the reach of a weapon in combat, just to name a couple. It is not as well polished as GURPS but it have one of my favorite combat systems, a little on the rules heavy side, but if you like GURPS it should not be a problem. At the worst you can still mine it for GURPS houseruling, beside it is free and IMHO, a fun read.