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View Full Version : [3.5] Gestalt Ranger // Beguiler questions



AngelOmnipotent
2009-07-04, 09:06 AM
I'm making a rather flavourful solo-campaign based character and I've decided it will be a Ranged focused sneaky Ranger // Beguiler.

MAD you say? Completely, yeah. However I rolled the stats: 17, 16, 16, 16, 13, 12. Bless my dice.

My DM is allowing the Dragonmark of Shadow feats as background feats one at first then one every 5 levels so I'm taking those, 2 flaws, 1 trait and animal companion progression like a druid. I also want to stick in two levels of Arcane Archer just for Imbue Arrow, and Leadership feat at 6.

Questions:
1. Would the Ranger spells count as part of the "spells known" list for spontaneous casting by the Beguiler.
2. What feats could I use to boost my Animal Companion? I know there's a few out there, I just can't remember what it's called. I don't want to make the animal companion a big focus for PrC though.
3. Are there any good PrC out there for Ranged specialists?
4. Is it worthwhile taking any PrC for Beguiler to boost spell DCs?
5. Is there any point in taking Obtain Familiar and do funky stuff (if possible) to make that my Animal Companion instead of a regular animal? I have plenty of feats to play around with.

Thanks in advance

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-07-04, 10:41 AM
1. With the feat Versatile Spellcaster from Races of the Dragon you could do just that. It should even give you early access to your next level of Beguiler spells, which would also allow you to pick higher level spells for your Advanced Learning.

2. There's a feat called Natural Bond in Complete Adventurer that adds +3 to your effective Druid level for your animal companion, but no higher than your character level. Since you can add your own bonuses and penalties in the most beneficial order, you can get a 'level -3' companion, apply the -3 first, then add the +3 to negate it and still count your full level for its extra HD and other benefits. Two of the best companions to pick are a Fleshraker dinosaur (MM3) and a Dire Eagle in Races of Stone. Another good idea would be to give it enough cross-class ranks in Spellcraft to take the feat Mage Slayer in Complete Arcane. A cheesy trick is to give it Vow of Poverty in BoED, which gives it a lot of powerful bonuses.

3. Maybe take two levels of Arcane Archer, but no more than two. Other than that I'm not really sure, most of the best archer damage builds I've seen are either single-classed Fighter or have full Cleric spellcasting, or use Soulbow (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060403a&page=2). A gestalt Fighter// Cloistered Cleric would probably be the 'best' archer character, but what you've picked is definitely a more versatile build. Definitely get the feat Woodland Archer from Races of the Wild.

4. If you're not good aligned, take one level in Mindbender as early as possible. I'd suggest staying single-classed Ranger on one side, and picking up spellcasting prestige classes on your Beguiler side. There are (over)powerful classes like Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil, or you could pick up Mage of the Arcane Order for greater versatility. Effigy Master in Complete Arcane would also be useful for creating some strong minions, but it may not fit the character.

5. There is the Arcane Heirophant prestige class in Races of the Wild, but it requires some Druid-specific class features to qualify for. Maybe pick up Obtain Familiar with Improved Familiar (CW or DMG) along with Wild Cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) to have an entourage of critters following you around. One of the biggest problems with a solo character is actions per round, a party of four gets to act four times but one character acts only once. Having a lot of companions will help, even if they don't contribute much they still may get targeted by attacks and special abilities instead of you.

AngelOmnipotent
2009-07-04, 12:02 PM
1. With the feat Versatile Spellcaster from Races of the Dragon you could do just that. It should even give you early access to your next level of Beguiler spells, which would also allow you to pick higher level spells for your Advanced Learning.

Unfortunately that isn't what I was asking, although it is something nifty to consider.

What I was asking is that once Ranger gets spellcasting, it automatically -knows- all the spells of that level, but has to prepare each day to cast them. As spontaneous casting RAW is "You can cast any spell you know at any time, assuming you have not used up your spells per day for that spell level" would that include the list of Divine spells -known- from Ranger? I don't think so, but it would be cool if it did work.

Also Arcane Heirophant is illegal to use in a Gestalt build :smallsmile: however Wild Cohort would be interesting, although with Leadership what are the rules for attracting non-human Cohorts and followers? I know there's a feat that allows you to have a Dragon Cohort which would be cool with a high enough Leadership score but other than that?

Keld Denar
2009-07-04, 12:06 PM
Order of the Bow Initiate is terribad, stay away from that, but Peerless Archer and Craigtop Archer are pretty decent, IIRC.

EDIT:
Spellcasting lists are seperate. If you were a Beguiler//Warmage, you couldn't mix and match spell slots either, just the same as a wizard//sorcerer couldn't prepare his sorcerer spells known in his wizard spell slots unless he also had them written down in his spellbook, or a Beguiler//Cleric could cast all of his Cleric spells from his Beguiler spell slots.

AngelOmnipotent
2009-07-04, 12:25 PM
Order of the Bow Initiate is terribad, stay away from that, but Peerless Archer and Craigtop Archer are pretty decent, IIRC.

EDIT:
Spellcasting lists are seperate. If you were a Beguiler//Warmage, you couldn't mix and match spell slots either, just the same as a wizard//sorcerer couldn't prepare his sorcerer spells known in his wizard spell slots unless he also had them written down in his spellbook, or a Beguiler//Cleric could cast all of his Cleric spells from his Beguiler spell slots.

Thanks for the verification on that. It's what I originally thought but there was always hope.

I'll look into those PrC to see what I can find.

Keld Denar
2009-07-04, 12:26 PM
As Biff mentioned, Versatile Spellcaster is the obvious work around and so much more!

AngelOmnipotent
2009-07-04, 12:34 PM
As Biff mentioned, Versatile Spellcaster is the obvious work around and so much more!

I don't actually see how, other than sacrificing Ranger spell slots to cast beguiler spells higher? Or is that what you mean. Either that or I'm missing something here.

Riffington
2009-07-04, 12:41 PM
I don't actually see how, other than sacrificing Ranger spell slots to cast beguiler spells higher? Or is that what you mean. Either that or I'm missing something here.

Well, the idea would be to sacrifice two first level beguiler spells to cast a second level ranger spell that you know. It's probably not RAI, but it appears to be RAW.
There's also the possibility you can trick your DM into letting you sacrifice two beguiler spells of your highest level to cast a spell you don't know yet.

AngelOmnipotent
2009-07-04, 12:49 PM
Well, the idea would be to sacrifice two first level beguiler spells to cast a second level ranger spell that you know. It's probably not RAI, but it appears to be RAW.
There's also the possibility you can trick your DM into letting you sacrifice two beguiler spells of your highest level to cast a spell you don't know yet.

Ooh I get it. I was looking at it from the completely wrong angle. It makes sense now and definitely something I'll be looking into.

Gnaeus
2009-07-04, 01:12 PM
2. What feats could I use to boost my Animal Companion? I know there's a few out there, I just can't remember what it's called. I don't want to make the animal companion a big focus for PrC though.

Companion Spellbond (which I think is PH2) lets you maintain shared buffs at 30 feet distance. If you expect your pet to be more than 5 feet away from you (i.e. if you aren't riding it) it would allow you to share your beguiler buffs, like improved invisibility.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-07-05, 01:35 AM
Well, the idea would be to sacrifice two first level beguiler spells to cast a second level ranger spell that you know. It's probably not RAI, but it appears to be RAW.
There's also the possibility you can trick your DM into letting you sacrifice two beguiler spells of your highest level to cast a spell you don't know yet.

It is clearly the intent (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ask/20080603a) of Versatile Spellcaster to grant a character access to a higher level of spells. The example at that link uses Sorcerer, which has a set progression for spells known. A Beguiler on the other hand automatically knows every spell of any level he would be able to cast, therefore Versatile Spellcaster grants him both knowledge of his next level of spells as well as the ability to cast them. There's no tricking your DM about it, this is a valid use of the feat by both RAW and RAI.

I would stay single-classed Ranger on one side, and mix in full spellcasting prestige classes on the Beguiler side such as Mindbender 1 and Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil. Maybe go with the following class build:
1. Ranger 1/ Beguiler 1
2. Ranger 2/ Beguiler 2
3. Ranger 3/ Beguiler 3
4. Ranger 4/ Beguiler 4
5. Ranger 5/ Beguiler 5
6. Ranger 6/ Mindbender 1
7. Arcane Archer 1/ Beguiler 6
8. Arcane Archer 2/ Beguiler 7
9. Effigy Master 1/ Beguiler 8
10. Ranger 7/ Effigy Master 2
11. Ranger 8/ Effigy Master 3
12. Ranger 9/ Effigy Master 4
13. Ranger 10/ Effigy Master 5
14. Ranger 11/ Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 1
15. Ranger 12/ Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 2
16. Ranger 13/ Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 3
17. Ranger 14/ Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 4
18. Ranger 15/ Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 5
19. Ranger 16/ Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 6
20. Ranger 17/ Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 7
With Natural Bond's +3 you'll still count your full level for your animal companion's benefits. Also be sure to get the feats Mindsight and Darkstalker from Lords of Madness.

Coidzor
2009-07-05, 02:14 AM
Well, the idea would be to sacrifice two first level beguiler spells to cast a second level ranger spell that you know. It's probably not RAI, but it appears to be RAW.
There's also the possibility you can trick your DM into letting you sacrifice two beguiler spells of your highest level to cast a spell you don't know yet.
:smallconfused:
I'm pretty sure that spellcasting is separate, even on a gestalt, so you could sacrifice 2 ranger 1st-level spells for 1 ranger 2nd-level spell or 2 beguiler 1st-level spells for 1 beguiler 2nd-level spell, but not crossing over like that...

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-07-05, 04:14 AM
:smallconfused:
I'm pretty sure that spellcasting is separate, even on a gestalt, so you could sacrifice 2 ranger 1st-level spells for 1 ranger 2nd-level spell or 2 beguiler 1st-level spells for 1 beguiler 2nd-level spell, but not crossing over like that...

Versatile Spellcaster allows you to sacrifice two spell slots of equal level, regardless of what class grants each, to cast any spell you know of one level higher, regardless of which class grants it.

AngelOmnipotent
2009-07-05, 10:27 AM
It is clearly the intent (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ask/20080603a) of Versatile Spellcaster to grant a character access to a higher level of spells. The example at that link uses Sorcerer, which has a set progression for spells known. A Beguiler on the other hand automatically knows every spell of any level he would be able to cast, therefore Versatile Spellcaster grants him both knowledge of his next level of spells as well as the ability to cast them. There's no tricking your DM about it, this is a valid use of the feat by both RAW and RAI.

I would stay single-classed Ranger on one side, and mix in full spellcasting prestige classes on the Beguiler side such as Mindbender 1 and Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil. Maybe go with the following class build:
1. Ranger 1/ Beguiler 1
2. Ranger 2/ Beguiler 2
3. Ranger 3/ Beguiler 3
4. Ranger 4/ Beguiler 4
5. Ranger 5/ Beguiler 5
6. Ranger 6/ Mindbender 1
7. Arcane Archer 1/ Beguiler 6
8. Arcane Archer 2/ Beguiler 7
9. Effigy Master 1/ Beguiler 8
10. Ranger 7/ Effigy Master 2
11. Ranger 8/ Effigy Master 3
12. Ranger 9/ Effigy Master 4
13. Ranger 10/ Effigy Master 5
14. Ranger 11/ Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 1
15. Ranger 12/ Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 2
16. Ranger 13/ Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 3
17. Ranger 14/ Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 4
18. Ranger 15/ Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 5
19. Ranger 16/ Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 6
20. Ranger 17/ Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 7
With Natural Bond's +3 you'll still count your full level for your animal companion's benefits. Also be sure to get the feats Mindsight and Darkstalker from Lords of Madness.

I like the idea of Effigy Master however the Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil just doesn't suit the character as much. It's a very free-form game and while I usually love to powergame I'm kinda forcing some flavour down my own throat and actually sticking to a character idea :)

Thanks for the info!

Riffington
2009-07-05, 11:08 AM
It is clearly the intent (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ask/20080603a) of Versatile Spellcaster to grant a character access to a higher level of spells. The example at that link uses Sorcerer, which has a set progression for spells known. A Beguiler on the other hand automatically knows every spell of any level he would be able to cast, therefore Versatile Spellcaster grants him both knowledge of his next level of spells as well as the ability to cast them. There's no tricking your DM about it, this is a valid use of the feat by both RAW and RAI.


True for the Sorcerer part. But the Beguiler gets to know every spell at a level that he is able to cast. Able to cast doesn't mean "well, using a feat to do a one-time thing (Prodigious Apprentice or Versatile Spellcaster)" or "well, using UMD and a scroll" or anything. If it did, then a Beguiler 12 with UMD and some scrolls could qualify for Archmage. The Beguiler can use a metamagicked spell with 2 slots, but doesn't know any new spells.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-07-05, 06:13 PM
Able to cast doesn't mean "well, using a feat to do a one-time thing (Prodigious Apprentice or Versatile Spellcaster)"

Why not? If you use two 1st-level slots to cast a 2nd-level spell, you can cast 2nd-level spells. A heightened 1st-level spell is a 2nd-level spell in every possible way, any other metamagicked 1st-level spell requires a 2nd-level slot, and so on. By your logic, when a 3rd level wizard runs out of level 2 slots for the day, he can no longer cast 2nd-level spells.

Riffington
2009-07-05, 07:32 PM
Why not? If you use two 1st-level slots to cast a 2nd-level spell, you can cast 2nd-level spells. A heightened 1st-level spell is a 2nd-level spell in every possible way, any other metamagicked 1st-level spell requires a 2nd-level slot, and so on. By your logic, when a 3rd level wizard runs out of level 2 slots for the day, he can no longer cast 2nd-level spells.

Actually, that's true by your logic. My logic states that he still has 1+Intbonus+Specialistbonus per day, and can thus cast 2nd level spells.
Otherwise, explain why having a couple second level scrolls and UMD doesn't make you able to cast 2nd level spells?

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-07-05, 08:38 PM
Actually, that's true by your logic. My logic states that he still has 1+Intbonus+Specialistbonus per day, and can thus cast 2nd level spells.

So he has 1+Int+specialist 2nd level spells per day at the beginning of the day, and so even when he's run out of 2nd level spells he can still technically cast 2nd level spells. At some point in the day, he can cast a 2nd level spell, thus he qualifies.

He can also turn 2+Int+specialist 1st-level spells into (2+Int+specialist)/2 2nd-level spells, and so even when he's run out of 1st level spells he can still technically cast 2nd level spells. At some point in the day, he can cast a 2nd level spell, thus he qualifies.

How are they different?


Otherwise, explain why having a couple second level scrolls and UMD doesn't make you able to cast 2nd level spells?

Because they're coming off the scroll, not from your spell slots. No one is suggesting that you can count casting spells from an item towards the ability to cast X level spells, because they aren't your spell slots at all.