Magic is an Abomination (3.5 Base Class)

[Realms of Chaos]

Short Introduction
Most people can see that dungeons and dragons isn’t at all like rock-paper-scissors. There aren’t established categories that beat each other beyond the simple distinction that full casters beat everyone else. If anything, this game is more of a tier-based game, with the classes split into different tiers of usefulness.
Some people have found this a bit annoying and have made attempts to specifically make a mage killer. Sometimes, a base class is made with good resistances, evasion and mettle, and a couple class features to vex lower-level spellcasters a bit. This is all well and good but with all of the cheese out there nowadays, even these attempts don’t stand a chance going toe-to-toe with a single caster, the foe they were built to fight. No, casters need an opponent who simply turn the magic off, using mechanics simplistic enough to stop them from using even the most fundamental of cheese.
Some people have seen this and have fumbled with it. Countless times, I have seen threads asking whether an “immune to all magic” trait for a class would warrant a level adjustment. Each time, however, the poster seems unsure of how to word the ability without casters circumventing it, making it seem clunky or insubstantial.
What I have come up with is a mechanic that simply stops over 90% of magic (99% at 20th level). I have built it into the form of a class that allows the ability to scale, also allowing the class to benefit from some magical augmentations and magic items, making sure that they are not too terribly underpowered. At the same time, though, I have created a class that plows over artificers, clerics, wizards, sorcerers, archivists, favored souls, wu-jens, shugenjas, warmages, dread necromancers, beguilers, warlocks, healers, spirit shamans, and bards (if playing with the magic-psionic transparency rule, the list is longer) that still gets beat up by normal fighters, monks, and soul knives (I’d put the odds at about even when fighting a druid, depending on how many combat-related feats the druid has).
As always, please examine and critique honestly. I want to see if this needs any fine tuning.

[Realms of Chaos]

Abolisher

“Magic is an aberration. I alone am pure of soul and body.”
Sangrel Morits, abolisher

Throughout the multiverse, magic is accepted as a fact. Even where it is impeded or wild, magic may be found throughout existence. The strongest of wizards can even invoke magic where none was intended to exist, in the midst of a dead magic zone.
Still, there are those who are unwilling to accept magic. Far too often is it displayed that absolute power corrupts absolutely. Every feat of magic is a temptation to those who would take things further. Once strong enough, a single wizard or druid can take down an army or reshape the world to their liking.
Among those who fight against the presence of magic are abolishers, rare individuals whose bodies reject magic completely. These abolishers are immune to what is often thought of as the greatest force in existence. The goal of some, it seems, is to abolish magic completely, to wipe it from the multiverse one wizard at a time.
Adventures: Though some abolishers fight towards an idealized world without magic, many of them are simply highly skilled at fighting it. That their talents for fighting magic puts them in conflict with spellcasters comes seems completely natural for them.
Even those seeking to destroy magic know that their goals are extreme and likely unachievable. They seek to choose their targets carefully, choosing those that don't help or harm society if good or lawful and those that society relies upon if evil or chaotic. In the meantime, they are willing to overlook or, in some circumstances, make use of magic that they aren't actively opposing at the moment.
For example, even the most extreme of good-aligned abolishers admit that curative magic has an overrall positive impact on the world. This being so, they are highly unlikely to start a crusade on a local church and may even accept healing magic if their life is in jeapordy and it can pierce their defenses. Likewise, to defeat stronger foes, a few abolishers try using the items that their opponents craft, knowing that such items will need frequent replacement as the abolisher grows stronger.
Characteristics: The abolisher’s training represents a refinement of their natural talent, using it to better fight against the menace of magic. They can stop most casters in their tracks, making it impossible for them to cast spells. By disrupting the flow of magic in a spellcaster, abolishers can even cause great physical pain in casters.
Alignment: Abolishers can be of any alignment. Good abolishers are more forgiving towards helpful sorts of magic while evil abolishers despise all magic or even favor the darker side to magic. Lawful abolishers generally see magic as an aberration to be destroyed, a cosmic flaw in existence. Chaotic abolishers often see the corruption that magic can bring to society.
Religion: Abolishers may belong to just about any religion, based on their own personal beliefs. Most abolishers, however, dislike or despise deities, seeing them as magical entities that provide magic to countless others.
Background: Every now and then, an individual is born with a bit of resistance to magic. Of these rare children, about half choose to hone their gift and become an abolisher. There are no known colleges and mentors are exceedingly rare. Luckily (or unluckily), abolishers in training seem to discover their talents intuitively. Furthermore, they are more inclined that others of their race to see problems with a world so reliant on magic. It is rare that multiple abolishers meet but such events have been known to lead to the destruction of entire wizard towers.
Races: Abolishers have been known to appear in just about every race. The most common race by a large margin are the dwarves, perhaps due to their natural resistance towards magic. Human abolishers aren’t particularly common but are known to make larger spectacles of themselves than those of other races. Elven abolishers are exceedingly rare and some who show burgeoning talent are slain as children.
Other Classes: Abolishers get along with most other spellcasters in the same way that a paladin might get along with a rogue. Though most abolishers have some degree of open-mindedness, they are still weary of spellcasting allies. Mundane allies, such as fighters and monks, are received a bit more warmly. The relationship between abolishers and spellthieves is perhaps one of the oddest in existence. Both are effective at fighting spellcasters but the spelltheif uses spells of their own, making them a potential threat of sorts. Most abolishers traveling with adventuring parties have silently agreed to a policy of live and let live.
Role: Abolishers are specialized warriors who fight spellcasters and those who use spell-like abilities. Apart from disarming most magical abilities, however, they are for the most part unarmed, a second-string combatant at best.

Game Rule Information
Abolishers have the following game statistics
Abilities: abolishers have no true reliance on any single ability score. However, as most choose to enter combat, strength, dexterity, and constitution all of great aid to them.
Alignment: Any
Hit Dice: d8

Class Skills
The abolisher’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Heal (Wis), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (arcane) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Listen (Wis) Move Silently (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex)
Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) x 4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier

{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Neutralization
1|+0|+2|+0|+2|Bonus Feat, Neutralization, Unrelenting|0th
2|+1|+3|+0|+3|Dampening Surge, Resilience|0th
3|+2|+3|+1|+3|Disruptive Pulse +1d6|1st
4|+3|+4|+1|+4|Neutralize Spell-Like Abilities|1st
5|+3|+4|+1|+4|Bonus Feat|2nd
6|+4|+5|+2|+5|Implacable|2nd
7|+5|+5|+2|+5|Disruptive Pulse +2d6|3rd
8|+6/+1|+6|+2|+6|Disrupt Flow|3rd
9|+6/+1|+6|+3|+6|Bonus Feat|4th
10|+7/+2|+7|+3|+7|Inescapable|4th
11|+8/+3|+7|+3|+7|Disruptive Pulse +3d6|5th
12|+9/+4|+8|+4|+8|Undo Augmentation|5th
13|+9/+4|+8|+4|+8|Bonus Feat|6th
14|+10/+5|+9|+4|+9|Inescapable|6th
15|+11/+6/+1|+9|+5|+9|Disruptive Pulse +4d6|7th
16|+12/+7/+2|+10|+5|+10|Destroy Flow|7th
17|+12/+7/+2|+10|+5|+10|Bonus Feat|8th
18|+13/+8/+3|+11|+6|+11|Inescapable|8th
19|+14/+9/+4|+11|+6|+11|Disruptive Pulse +5d6|9th
20|+15/+10/+5|+12|+6|+12|Reality Reinstatement|9th[/table]

Class Features:
All of the following are class features of the abolisher.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: An abolisher is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with light and medium armor, but not with shields.

Bonus Feats: At 1st level, an abolisher gains a bonus feat from those listed in the post below. At 5th level and every 4 levels afterwards (9th, 13th, 17th), the abolisher gains an additional such bonus feat.

Neutralization (Su): An abolisher neutralizes magic around them, keeping themselves save from most spells. At 1st level, this protection only applies to 0-level spells. At each odd level, it applies to an additional spell level of spells (up to 9th level spells at 19th level). How the neutralization works depends on whether the spell has a target, area, or effect.
Target: The abolisher cannot be targeted by a spell they neutralize. Touch spells aren’t expended when the caster touches him, rays bend around him, and other targeting effects simply fail when directed towards him.
Area: The abolisher creates a small dead space in the area of any spell they enter. While in the area of a spell, his square(s) is unaffected by the spell’s effects (including the effects from neighboring squares, such as how a wall of fire harms adjacent creatures).
Effect: An abolisher can neutralize most magical effects with a touch. If the duration isn’t instantaneous, any object, creature, or force created by such a spell can be nullified with a touch attack. Likewise, if such an effect is made to touch the abolisher or makes an attack against him that exceeds his touch AC, the effect is nullified and the abolisher is unharmed.
There is a price to be paid for this power, however. An abolisher cannot lower his protection for any reason. Furthermore, magic items used or worn by the neutralizer are (temporarily) nullified if he nullifies spells of a spell level equal to at least half of the item’s caster level.

Unrelenting (Su): Abolishers have been taught to be relentless in combat, never giving spellcasters the time they need. No creature within his reach may cast defensively. Furthermore, whenever a spell or spell-like ability provokes an attack of opportunity from the abolisher, he uses his class level in place of his base attack bonus and the target fails their concentration check if the attack hits.

Resilience (Su): Starting at 2nd level, an abolisher learns how to heal themselves without the use of magic. They heal naturally at twice the normal rate. Furthermore, they gain a number of points each day equal to twice their class level. They may spend any number of points as a standard action to heal an equal amount of health.

Dampening surge (Su): Starting at 2nd level, an abolisher can draw upon greater power, letting them nullify greater spells. Once per day per class level, an abolisher can raise the maximum level of spell they can nullify by 1 for a single round. If they can nullify spell-like abilities, the same benefit applies to them.
Activating this ability is a free action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. This ability does not stack with itself.

Disruptive Pulse (Su): Starting at 3rd level, an abolisher can damage a spellcaster by disrupting the flow of magic within their bodies. Whenever the abolisher makes a successful melee attack against a target who can cast spells or spell-like abilities, they take an additional 1d6 damage. Alternately, if the abolisher makes a successful melee touch attack against such a foe, they take 1d6 damage.
At 7th level and every 4 levels afterwards, the damage dealt by this ability increases by another 1d6.

Neutralize Spell-Like Abilities (Su): Starting at 4th level, an abolisher can nullify powers that imitate spells. The abolisher’s neutralization class feature now applies to spell-like abilities of up to one spell level lower than the maximum level of spell that they can nullify.

Implacable (Su): Starting at 6th level, an abolisher is incredibly hard to escape in combat. As a move action, they may designate a single foe. If that creature moves before the start of the abolisher's next turn, he may move up to his speed as an immediate action. If his movement doesn’t exceed 5 feet, the abolisher does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

Disrupt Flow (Su): Starting at 8th level, an abolisher’s very presence disrupts the flow of magic around them, especially for those that they strike. All spells and spell-like abilities cast by creatures within 15 feet of the abolisher take a –2 penalty to their caster level, to their save DCs, and to their spell penetration checks.
Furthermore, If the abolisher makes a successful melee attack or melee touch attack against a foe, all spells and spell-like abilities they cast take a –2 penalty to their cast level, to their save DCs, and to spell penetration checks. Furthermore, all spells and spell-like abilities active on their person of a spell level that the aboilsher could neutralize are suppressed. These penalties lasts for 1 round.
These two penalties stack with each other.

Inescapable (Su): Starting at 10th level, creatures within 30 feet of an abolisher lose any movement speeds that they have gained through spells or spell-like abilities of spell levels that their Neutralization class feature could neutralize. Furthermore, spells and spell-like abilities that enhance preexisting movement speeds are also suppressed. Creatures that lose their flying speed gently float down to earth.
Starting at 14th level, Creatures within 25 feet of an abolisher may not cast or use spells or spell-like abilities of the teleportation subschool if their Neutralization class feature can neutralize that spell or spell-like ability.
Starting at 18th level, Creatures within 20 feet of an abolisher may not cast or use spells or spell-like abilities that involve extraplanar travel (such as etherealness, shadow walk, or blink) if their Neutralization class feature can neutralize that spell or spell-like ability.

Undo Augmentation (Su): Starting at 12th level, an abolisher suppresses magic in their surroundings, unraveling the magical augmentations of others. All spells and spell-like abilities active on creatures within 10 feet are suppressed if the abolisher can neutralize spells (or spell-like abilities) of the appropriate level. Time spent suppressed in this way does not count towards the duration of a spell or spell-like ability. Despite the name of this ability, both harmful and helpful magic is suppressed.
Furthermore, all magic items within 10 feet cease functioning for as long as they remain in range. Magical armor and weaponry is still masterwork, however.

Destroy Flow (Su): Starting at 16th level, an abolisher disrupts the flow of magic in the world around them, making it impossible to cast spells for the people they strike. All spells and spell-like abilities cast by creatures within 15 feet of the abolisher take a –2 penalty to their caster level, to their save DCs, and to their spell penetration checks. This penalty stacks with those from the abolisher’s disrupt flow class feature.
Furthermore, If the abolisher makes a successful melee attack or melee touch attack against a foe, that foe may not cast spells or spell-like abilities of up to the level that the abolisher’s neutralization class feature would neutralize. This effect lasts for 1 round.

Reality Reinstatement (Su): Starting at 20th level, an abolisher can even undo the effects of instantaneous magic within 5 feet of themselves. Items created through fabricate spells return to their component parts, holes created with disintegrate spells refill with material, boulders moved via telekinesis return to their original resting place, etc.
Hit point damage, healing, and death dealt to creatures is not reversed by this ability but physical signs of such magic are (bodies destroyed through implosion become whole once more, burns and scratches from magic spells are removed, wounds visibly healed through healing magic open up once more).
Unlike other abilities, an abolisher can suppress this class feature through sheer force of will. The ability remains suppressed for as long as they concentrate + 2 rounds.

Abolishers and Multiclassing: As abolishers are born rather than trained, a character cannot multiclass into abolisher. However, an abolisher who multiclasses out of abolisher may later gain more class levels if they desire. Abolishers may not take levels in any class that grants spell-like abilities or spellcasting.

[Realms of Chaos]

Errata, FAQ, and Feats

Reality Reinstatement Errata:
Here is a short explanation of how reality reinstatement interracts with different effects. Let me know what I have missed.
Teleportation/Telekinetic movement: If an object or creature is moved by magic, reality reinstatement forces it back to where it was unless it has moved at least 5 feet since being affected by the magic. If another object or creature occupies the square(s) that the affected object would return to, it is harmlessly shunted into the nearest open space to make room.
Destruction of bodies/objects: any matter simply destroyed via magic returns into existence (though destroyed living matter returns as nonliving matter). If another object or creature occupies the space that would be filled by the destroyed matter, it is harmlessly shunted into the nearest open space to make room.
Creation/Construction: Objects put together via magic fall back into their component parts unless they’ve been mundanely altered or reinforced since their construction. Objects simply created via magic disappear.
Death/Reanimation: Death effects are not reversed by the presence of an abolisher. Undead animated through spells and spell-like abilities, however, are instantly slain (even if they were living creatures before the spell).
Revival/Healing: Wounds and scratches healed up via healing spells reappear on creatures but the strength (or weakness) of their life force is unaffected, meaning that they are not re-damaged. The “wounds” can be healed with 1 point of magical healing or heal on their own after 1d4+1 days.
Other effects removed via healing spells (poison, disease, paralysis, etc.) do not return but the creature displays physical signs and symptoms of such conditions (if any). These can be healed with 10 points of magical healing or heal on their own after 1 day.
Revival from the dead is not reversed but such creatures assume an appearance similar to a fresh corpse. This appearance lasts indefinitely or until the target receives 50 points of magical healing.
Damage: Any signs of physical damage dealt by spells to creatures (burns, scratches, gashes, etc.) seem to heal over but the strength (or weakness) of their life force is unaffected, meaning that they are not healed of any hit points. Inanimate objects, however, are healed of any damage dealt by spells and spell-like abilities.

Mage Slayer Feats:

Passive Neutralization
You can suppress some spells simply by passing nearby
Prerequisites: Neutralization
Benefits: To neutralize spells that create effects, you need only enter an adjacent square to the created effect. Furthermore, effects created by spells cannot be made to appear in squares adjacent to you.

Pass Protection
You can protect another ally from dangerous effects of magic.
Prerequisites: Neutralization
Benefits: As a standard action, you may touch an adjacent ally to grant that ally the benefits of his neutralization class feature in relation to targeted effects. This protection lasts for 1 round or until either you or the ally move at least 5 feet.
Special: The ally suffers from the drawbacks of the neutralization class feature while benefiting from this feat.
Special: If you possess the neutralize spell-like ability class feature, the ally gains the benefit of that ability as well (in relation to targeted effects).

Dead Zone
You create a small zone that is exempted from area effects.
Prerequisites: Neutralization
Benefits: Choose one adjacent square to you. That square moves with you and benefits from the neutralization class feature in regards to area effects. Each round, you may choose a different square as a swift action.

Improved Resilience
You can heal yourself of more damage each day.
Prerequisites: Resilience
Benefits: your resilience class feature gains an additional number of points each day equal to your class level.

Greater Resilience
You can recover from the most grievous of wounds.
Prerequisites: Improved resilience
Benefits: You are automatically stabilized when your hit points drop below 0. Furthermore, while your hit points are below 0, you heal 1 hit point per hour.
Lastly, you heal 1 point of ability drain per drained ability score per day.
Special: Bedrest does nothing to increase the rate of healed ability drain.

Magic Exception
You can spare a single magic item from the effects of your neutralization.
Prerequisites: Neutralization
Benefit: At the start of each day, you may choose a single magic item on your person. By meditating for 1 hour, you can protect it from your neutralization class feature for 24 hours.

Void Within Void
It is impossible to stop the power of your neutralization
Prerequisites: Neutralization
Benefit: Supernatural abilities gained through levels in abolisher now function as extraordinary abilities (they still affect incorporeal creatures).
Starting at 5th level, you may imitate the effects of an antimagic zone out to 10 feet for a single round as a swift action. This ability is usable once per day per 5 class levels you possess.

Extra Dampening
You can empower your ability to suppress magic more often.
Prerequisites: Dampening surge
Benefit: You may use your dampening surge class feature two additional times per day.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times. It’s effects stack.

Quickened Dampening
You can raise your defenses at a moment’s notice.
Prerequisites: Dampening surge
Benefits: By expending an extra daily use, you may use dampening surge as an immediate action.

Baleful Neutralization
You can pass on some of your curse onto those that you grapple.
Prerequisites: Neutralization, Disruptive Pulse +1d6, Improved Grapple
Benefits: While grappling a creature, its magical gear ceases to function. Furthermore, if it can cast spells or use spell-like abilities, you deal your disruptive pulse damage whenever you make a successful grapple check.

Extend Range
Your ability to suppress magic stretches farther.
Prerequisites: Disrupt Flow
Benefits: The area of your disrupt flow, inescapable, undo augmentation, destroy flow, and reinstate reality class features are doubled.

Ignore magical Protection
You can pierce through magical protection
Prerequisites: Neutralization
Benefits: your attacks ignore ac bonus and damage reduction granted by spells and/or spell-like abilities.

Discerning Gaze
You can see through magical effects
Prerequisites: Neutralization, spot 9 ranks
Benefits: whenever you see a glamour or figment effect, you are instantly aware that you are looking at an illusion. You do not see through the illusion, however.
Furthermore, your attacks ignore miss chances gained due to spells and spell-like abilities, such as blur, displacement, and blink (but not invisibility.

Piercing Gaze
You can see through effects that would hinder your sight.
Prerequisites: Neutralization, spot 6
Benefits: You can see through magical darkness and through magical fog and mist as if they weren’t there. You gain no special ability to see in mundane darkness or fog, however.

Summoner’s Bane
You ignore the special abilities of summoned creatures
Prerequisites: Neutralization
Benefits: Your neutralization class feature extends to the special attacks of summoned creatures, so long as you could neutralize the spell used to summon the creature.

Specialized Defenses
You are more adept at guarding against a single school of magic
Prerequisites: Neutralization
Benefits: Choose a single school of magic. Against spells from the chosen school increase the maximum spell level of spells affected by your neutralization class feature by 1.
Special: If a feat or ability refers to a maximum spell level affected by the neutralization class feature, it does not take this bonus into account.

Ignore Minions
You are not distracted by the minions of spellcasters
Prerequisites: Neutralization
Benefits: You gain a +5 bonus to your AC against the attacks of familiars, animal companions, and summoned creatures.
You gain a +2 bonus to your AC against the attacks of undead created via magic and creatures under the effect of a charm or compulsion spell.

Magic Feedback
You can damage your foe with the spells that they cast.
Prerequisites: Disruptive Pulse +2d6
Benefits: whenever you make a successful melee attack or melee touch attack against a foe, they take damage equal to the level of the highest-level spell they have cast within the last round.
Special: Damage dealt through this feat is in addition to that dealt through disruptive pulse.

Suppress Item
You can suppress the effects of an opponent’s magical item
Prerequisites: Neutralization
Benefits: As a full round action that provokes attacks of opportunity, you may make a melee touch attack against a foe, designating a single piece of visible gear. If the attack is successful and that gear is magical, it ceases to function for the duration of the encounter.
You may use this ability once per encounter.

Vestige Hunter
You have seen supernatural beings just as harmful to the world as spells.
Prerequisites: Neutralization (3rd level spells)
Benefits: Your neutralization class feature now applies against the effects of vestiges of a level up to the maximum spell level affected – 2.
Furthermore, your disruptive pulse class feature now damages creatures bound to a vestige or who are possessed (such as by a fiend or ghost).

Word Slayer
While some seek to rewrite the world with their words, you know how to stop them.
Prerequisites: Neutralization (4th level spells)
Benefits: Your neutralization class feature now applies against utterances of a level up to the maximum spell level affected –3.
Furthermore, you disruptive pulse class feature now damages creatures with ranks in truespeak

Mind Crusher
Within the minds of some individuals are powers just as threatening as magic.
Prerequisites: Neutralization
Benefits: Your neutralization class feature now applies to psionic powers and psi-like abilities of a level up to the maximum spell level affected.
Furthermore, your disruptive pulse class feature now damages creatures who can use powers or psi-like abilities.
Special: This feat is only necessary in campaigns where there is no psionic-magic transparency.

Neutralize the Unnatural
No longer relying on them yourself, you neutralize some supernatural abilities.
Prerequisites: Neutralize spell-like ability, Void within Void
Benefits: Your neutralization, disrupt flow, undo augmentation, and reality reinstatement class features function against supernatural abilities that imitate the effects of a spell or that refer to themselves as functioning similarly to a spell if the spell's level doesn't exceed the maximum spell level that you can neutralize - 2.

Pressure Casters
A combination of intimidation and subtle magical disruption slows down spellcasting.
Prerequisites: Neutralization, Inescapable, Intimidate 15 ranks
Benefits: Any caster who possesses a line of sight and a line of effect with you cannot cast spells with a casting time of under 1 standard action. If they wish, they may cast a spell with a normally shorter casting time as a standard action.

Magic Warrior
You are accustomed to fighting against magical armor and weaponry.
Prerequisites: Neutralization Class Feature
Benefits: Against attacks made using a magical weapon, you gain a +1 bonus to your AC.
When you make an attack against an opponent using a magical shield or suit of armor, you gain a +1 bonus to your attack and damage roll.
Special: You may gain this feat multiple times. It's effects stack.
Special: The bonus to AC may not exceed the magical weapon's enhancement bonus. The bonus to attack and damage rolls may not exceed the summed total of their shield and armor's enhancement bonuses.

[Zeta Kai]

{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Neutralization
1|+0|+2|+0|+2|Bonus Feat, Neutralization, Unrelenting|0th
2|+1|+3|+0|+3|Dampening Surge, Resilience|0th
3|+2|+3|+1|+3|Disruptive Pulse +1d6|1st
4|+3|+4|+1|+4|Neutralize Spell-Like Abilities|1st
5|+3|+4|+1|+4|Bonus Feat|2nd
6|+4|+5|+2|+5|Implacable|2nd
7|+5|+5|+2|+5|Disruptive Pulse +2d6|3rd
8|+6/+1|+6|+2|+6|Disrupt Flow|3rd
9|+6/+1|+6|+3|+6|Bonus Feat|4th
10|+7/+2|+7|+3|+7|Inescapable|4th
11|+8/+3|+7|+3|+7|Disruptive Pulse +3d6|5th
12|+9/+4|+8|+4|+8|Undo Augmentation|5th
13|+9/+4|+8|+4|+8|Bonus Feat|6th
14|+10/+5|+9|+4|+9|Inescapable|6th
15|+11/+6/+1|+9|+5|+9|Disruptive Pulse +4d6|7th
16|+12/+7/+2|+10|+5|+10|Destroy Flow|7th
17|+12/+7/+2|+10|+5|+10|Bonus Feat|8th
18|+13/+8/+3|+11|+6|+11|Inescapable|8th
19|+14/+9/+4|+11|+6|+11|Disruptive Pulse +5d6|9th
20|+15/+10/+5|+12|+6|+12|Reality Reinstatement|9th[/table]

[Realms of Chaos]

Thank you, Zeta. :smallbiggrin:
Tables have never been my strong suit.

Now I only wish that I knew what you actually thought of the class.

[Melamoto]

Looks pretty good, and well thought out. Although their main weakness seems to be lack of magic support, so VoP might work a little too well with them, since they seem to already have it, in their own way. Otherwise, well done.

[jagadaishio]

I have no problems with this class. I do have one minor annoyance, but it is quite minor. It will be annoying to keep track of the level of all of the character's magic items to see which ones are dampened each time the character uses its abilities, not to mention the DM having to keep track of the caster level of all of the loot that an enemy has.

Some things that need clarifying:

1. Exactly how long are items possessed by the Abolisher and enemies neutralized? You say that it's temporary, but don't list how long exactly the effect lasts.

2. I would specify that the double-class-level daily hit point regain happens only after a full night's sleep.

3. Starting at level 12, with the effects of undo augmentation, by your wording it would appear that the Abolisher can never use any magic items or effects ever again. Was this an intended side effect?

[Coidzor]

Perhaps a feat or ability that causes combat-casting/concentration check DCs to go up just by being within a certain range.

Not sure about its relative balance, but I'd go with an additional increase in the concentration check (on top of that of the raw damage) to keep the spell instead of, auto-fail if the AoO/readied action hits.

[Realms of Chaos]

Melamoto: I agree that Vow of Poverty is a good choice for abolishers but I don't think that it changes much. They still overwhelm casters and everything else still steamrolls over them. The bonus to ac and attack rolls are nice but they don't even come close to evening the battleground against noncasters.

Jagadaisho: keeping track of caster levels doesn't seem too difficult. For the player's gear, make them keep track.
Keeping track of enemy gear doesn't seem like such a problem. Whenever the players divy up treasure, just run a quick check to see what doesn't turn off when they use it.

As for the three points:
1. Items in your possession stop working as long as they are in your possession. Undo augmentation suppresses items as long as they are in range of the ability. I thought that this was pretty straightforward but if you think it needs to be stated...:smallconfused:
2. Untrue. Much like a paladin's lay on hands, there is no sleep requirement to refill points. They refill at the start of each day. At least, that was my intention. Is this bad?
3. I didn't notice that this was true when I was making the class but I suppose that there is no harm in this being the case. Note that you can still receive magical augmentation if it's spell level is above that which you neutralize (a 13th level abolisher can recieve a 7th level enhancement, for example). All gear, however, is lost. Then again, you are bringing others down to your level as well.

Coidzor:
I believe deep down in my heart that not only isn't the auto-fail overpowered but that it is absolutely necessary. The thing about magic is that it does anything that a homebrewer wants it to do.
A 1st level spell that grants a +10 bonus to concentration checks, for example, isn't beyond the realms of possibility.
To actually make it believable that the abolisher can disrupt spells successfully at any level regardless of how min-maxed the enemy may be, things have to be dealt with in absolute terms. There is no room for negotiation when spellcasters are involved.

[jagadaishio]

Melamoto: I agree that Vow of Poverty is a good choice for abolishers but I don't think that it changes much. They still overwhelm casters and everything else still steamrolls over them. The bonus to ac and attack rolls are nice but they don't even come close to evening the battleground against noncasters.

Jagadaisho: keeping track of caster levels doesn't seem too difficult. For the player's gear, make them keep track.
Keeping track of enemy gear doesn't seem like such a problem. Whenever the players divy up treasure, just run a quick check to see what doesn't turn off when they use it.

As for the three points:
1. Items in your possession stop working as long as they are in your possession. Undo augmentation suppresses items as long as they are in range of the ability. I thought that this was pretty straightforward but if you think it needs to be stated...:smallconfused:
2. Untrue. Much like a paladin's lay on hands, there is no sleep requirement to refill points. They refill at the start of each day. At least, that was my intention. Is this bad?
3. I didn't notice that this was true when I was making the class but I suppose that there is no harm in this being the case. Note that you can still receive magical augmentation if it's spell level is above that which you neutralize (a 13th level abolisher can recieve a 7th level enhancement, for example). All gear, however, is lost. Then again, you are bringing others down to your level as well.

Coidzor:
I believe deep down in my heart that not only isn't the auto-fail overpowered but that it is absolutely necessary. The thing about magic is that it does anything that a homebrewer wants it to do.
A 1st level spell that grants a +10 bonus to concentration checks, for example, isn't beyond the realms of possibility.
To actually make it believable that the abolisher can disrupt spells successfully at any level regardless of how min-maxed the enemy may be, things have to be dealt with in absolute terms. There is no room for negotiation when spellcasters are involved.

In that case, the abolisher has almost no use for gold. Since the only expensive things in D&D are magical in nature, I really cannot imagine any Abolisher not taking the VoP. They face no penalties due to it that they wouldn't already face due to their class.

[Yuki Akuma]

Without the ability to use magic in any form, the class would very swiftly fall behind the power curve. Even if he took Vow of Poverty he'd be pretty lacklustre.

I know you want a sort of "magical anathema" feel, but without standard boosts to attack rolls, he'll never be able to hit anything. And he has abilities that rely on hitting things!

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Without the ability to use magic in any form, the class would very swiftly fall behind the power curve. Even if he took Vow of Poverty he'd be pretty lacklustre.

I know you want a sort of "magical anathema" feel, but without standard boosts to attack rolls, he'll never be able to hit anything. And he has abilities that rely on hitting things!

Agreed; the class is too swingy without magical gear, trouncing casters but falling too easily before martial types without level-appropriate items and enhancements. It's like the VoP monk problem: an archer with fly outside of the suppression range can simply plink away until he falls.

Some kensai- or soulknife-like self-enhancements are probably called for if he can't use any gear.

[Ascension]

Although I do agree some sort of pseudomagical weapon/armor enhancement in the vein of the class's pseudomagical healing might be nice, I do believe that what you're complaining about is the OP's entire concept for the class. An abolisher is supposed to fold like wet cardboard in an encounter with anyone other than a spellcaster... the class was designed a complete one-trick pony. Magic is a common enough trick in D&D, though, that it still has a sort of utility, and without magical defenses even a 3/4th BAB class with masterwork equipment should be able to take down a squishy wizard (Clerics are more doubtful, since essentially you'd have two 3/4th BAB classes with masterwork gear and d8 hit dice whaling away at each other... they'd almost be identical with all magic out of the picture, though Clerics get all armor proficiencies and the Abolisher gets martial weapons.).

Don't get me wrong, any sort of balanced party would destroy an Abolisher in no time flat, but with, say, the support of a few Barbarian toughs, or especially with Warblade friends, a couple of Abolishers might be able to eliminate enough magic to allow a purely martial party to overcome a mixed martial/magical party.

It's still an awfully limited class. On the one hand, the Abolisher really can shut down a mage completely, something nothing else in the game can really do, but on the other hand, that's... all it can do. The Abolisher seems more like a GM tool than a PC class, something one could use in order to prove a player who thinks magic can solve any problem wrong.

Trying to make a caster-nerf into a class is sort of like trying to make a "falling rock that kills everyone" prestige class. You're personifying GM fiat. What's next, a class that lets you fudge dice rolls in your favor, or possibly "shield your fate from the eyes of the gods" with a little screen of your own to roll behind? I'm using hyperbole, of course, but that's sort of the impression I get from this class.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

An abolisher is supposed to fold like wet cardboard in an encounter with anyone other than a spellcaster... the class was designed a complete one-trick pony.

Well, there's a big difference between "still gets beat up by normal fighters, monks, and soul knives" and "folds like wet cardboard." Someone who's good against casters but meh against anyone else is a valuable team member; someone who's awesome against casters and useless against anyone else is dead weight. Without the ability to get to the enemy and hit the enemy, the abolisher is dead weight; all the antimagic on the Prime doesn't help if the wizard is flying out of reach.


Don't get me wrong, any sort of balanced party would destroy an Abolisher in no time flat, but with, say, the support of a few Barbarian toughs, or especially with Warblade friends, a couple of Abolishers might be able to eliminate enough magic to allow a purely martial party to overcome a mixed martial/magical party.

The problem with this being that the martial/magical party would focus fire on the abolisher, it would drop like a wet noodle, and then the magic types have the upper hand again.


Trying to make a caster-nerf into a class is sort of like trying to make a "falling rock that kills everyone" prestige class. You're personifying GM fiat. What's next, a class that lets you fudge dice rolls in your favor, or possibly "shield your fate from the eyes of the gods" with a little screen of your own to roll behind? I'm using hyperbole, of course, but that's sort of the impression I get from this class.

Completely agreed. While I had issues with the reasoning behind the class as well, I figured others who liked the idea might use it and so the mechanics should be addressed first.

[Ascension]

Well, there's a big difference between "still gets beat up by normal fighters, monks, and soul knives" and "folds like wet cardboard." Someone who's good against casters but meh against anyone else is a valuable team member; someone who's awesome against casters and useless against anyone else is dead weight. Without the ability to get to the enemy and hit the enemy, the abolisher is dead weight; all the antimagic on the Prime doesn't help if the wizard is flying out of reach.

For what it's worth, most of my statements were assuming a level 12 or up Abolisher, with at least the first Inescapable and Abolish Augmentation, plus well-chosen feats. Even then, though, you're right... the wizard really has no reason to enter the Abolisher's effective range, and under ordinary conditions the Abolisher obviously can't catch a wizard magically prepared to run away.


The problem with this being that the martial/magical party would focus fire on the abolisher, it would drop like a wet noodle, and then the magic types have the upper hand again.

I meant what I said when I phrased it "a couple of abolishers." I figure at least one will be in negative HP by the end of the encounter. That's why you bring a spare.


Completely agreed. While I had issues with the reasoning behind the class as well, I figured others who liked the idea might use it and so the mechanics should be addressed first.

Fair enough. There certainly are mechanical issues. I was just thinking that the mechanical issues seemed to be in line with the intentions of the OP, making the class's mechanical problems a natural outgrowth of the problems inherent in the class's concept.

[Vourge]

Maybe the class should get bonuses for not using magic items

[Realms of Chaos]

Okay, now to adress the issues one at a time:

VoP is absolutely required but doesn't do enough: Do you think it would help if I exempt the abolisher from his own undo augmentations ability (he would still deal with the drawbacks of neutralization)?
Alternately (or additionally), might it help if magic exception could be taken multiple times (perhaps up to three), letting more magical items be used.

This guy can't hit things: This seems a bit odd in and of itself. Consider the average high-level fighter decked out in armor. Magical Full-Plate, Magical Heavy Shield, an amulet of natural armor, and a ring of protection.
With Undo Augmentation, all they are left with is a +10 bonus to AC, making 22 AC if they have 14 Dex and 23 if they also have the dodge feat (which is a stretch).
this 23 AC seems easy to beat if you have Mid BAB, a masterwork weapon, and a decent strength score. Of course, if this guy was a paladin, hexblade, or duskblade rather than a a fighter, the abolisher could just go in with a touch attack (disruptive pulse), aiming for the far lower AC of 13.
Full fighters do rip through this guy like tissue paper but don't start fibs that this guy can't hit them.

He won't hit things...which he needs to do: wha?? I see a couple of abilities that rely on hitting somebody, unrelenting, disruptive pulse, and disrupt/destroy flow.
Unrelenting is meant to be used against full spellcasters, note that it lets you use your class level in place of your BAB. Also note that undo augmentations/a proper selection of bonus feats pierce through most common protections that a wizard will have.
disruptive pulse and disrupt/destroy flow are ideally made to be used against foes that are at this same defensive disadvantage. If you want to attack someone who is defended, however, keep in mind that these abilities can be used as touch attacks, making it easier to hit, especially if you use these touch attacks as an attack of opportunity with unrelenting.

The Wizard can retreat out of range: True. If the wizard isn't approached quickly enough, they can cast teleport, dimension door, planeshift, or any number of other spells to keep them out of range. Likewise, they can simply fly.
I expect that this would be rare, however. An average abolisher could run 120 feet, easily trapping an enemy wizard within range of their inescapable class feature (unless they have the oddly specific contingency set of seeing an enemy approach within 125 feet of them).
Furthermore, one of their bonus feats can double the range of this class feature, perhaps keeping them from escaping range within a single round.

The Abolisher just looks like DM fiat: Ok, I'll give you that one. This really started as more of a conceptual experiment until it evolved into the class before you.
At the same time, however, I don't see any other way it could've been done. Spell lists are amazing things. As people keep homebrewing, they keep growing larger and larger. As such, if things are deal with in less than definite terms, magic will find a way to wiggle through the cracks.

Is there anything else that I missed?

Oh, yeah...

The Abolisher is worthless outside of a battle with a wizard: In a dungeon, resistance to magical traps is always nice (though lack of healing stinks when the trap is mechanical).
Another thing that people might be missing is that the undo augmentation ability is a spell incubator of sorts. Time spent suppressed does not count towards a spell's duration, meaning that a party could be loaded up with spells before the casters regain their spell slots only to have the party still augmented when they leave the area of that effect the next day.
Though it will probably only rarely be used as such, the implacable class feature does allow an abolisher to set up tactical situations such as flanking whenever an enemy tries to get away from them.
Also, although spellcasting monsters are relatively rare, spell-like abilites are far more common.
Sometimes, the party is subjected to a spell that you wish someone had survived through, such as a mass sleep, paralysis, or charming spell. In some cases, this may be plot driven and the surviving abolisher may wish that they had failed. Otherwise, they may be able to get away (perhaps getting the rest of the party to safety along with them.
Much like a monk, abolishers have a decent spell list and skills per level.

[Milskidasith]

The thing is.... wouldn't he still get beaten up by clerics? I mean, until level 19, his neutralization is always going to be one step behind a clerics strongest buff (unless the cleric took a non-spellcasting dip, which isn't too much of a stretch), and until then the cleric is going to be able to self buff himself above and beyond the abolisher since they have the same stats otherwise (in fact, the cleric can use heavier armor, but doesn't have martial weapon proficiency). I'm also not sure, but does this do anything against druids wildshaping?

[Realms of Chaos]

Well, until 12th level, the abolisher isn't going to stop augmentations already active on an opponent (and when they do, dampening surge let's them stop the most recent buffs for 1 round/level). Therefore, divine metamagic/persist cheese still worksfor awhile against this guy.

Against the druid, it basically becomes a fighting match between this guy and a bear/wolf/dinosaur. No magical armor or weapons that still grant bonuses, no natural spells, just the raw stats of what they've become.

Does anyone have suggestions for how the class can be improved?

[Ascension]

Hmm... It occurs to me the Abolisher would be amazing in gestalt. It seems like most people take a spellcasting class on at least one side of their gestalt characters, and if you combined Abolisher with, say, Warblade, you'd be able to get the greater durability and much greater punch that this class lacks. The Abolisher/Warblade would probably still have trouble against other X/Martial Adept gestalts, but he'd have greater versatility and viability as a character.

[Milskidasith]

Well, until 12th level, the abolisher isn't going to stop augmentations already active on an opponent (and when they do, dampening surge let's them stop the most recent buffs for 1 round/level). Therefore, divine metamagic/persist cheese still worksfor awhile against this guy.

Against the druid, it basically becomes a fighting match between this guy and a bear/wolf/dinosaur. No magical armor or weapons that still grant bonuses, no natural spells, just the raw stats of what they've become.

Does anyone have suggestions for how the class can be improved?

It looks fine besides the aforementioned druid and cleric matchups.

[Realms of Chaos]

I admit that this class's goal was more to stop to stop batman wizard than to topple CoDzilla (though it does give them a bit of a run for their money).

Considering that the wizard needs to cast celerity followed by a greater shadow evocation to imitate contingency set with teleport just to get away from this guy (I think that works), I think that the class accomplishes its goal.

[Chokuto]

Short Introduction
Most people can see that dungeons and dragons isn’t at all like rock-paper-scissors. There aren’t established categories that beat each other beyond the simple distinction that full casters beat everyone else.

emphasis added.

Why does EVERYONE on these boards say this!:smallfurious: It's not true! Lets say a 20 lvl wizard has a HP score of 150, which is being generous since I gave him 16 con and Improved Toughness as a feat, which I've never seen a wizard grab, and an AC of 25, A 20 lvl GNOME fighter TWF, will gain 7 attacks in a full attack, and lets say he's wielding +3 longswords instead of bastard swords or Dwarven waraxes, his total accuracy to hit is +24/+24/+19/+19/+14/+14/+9 and dealing a AVERAGE (assuming he rolled a 3 on his d6's) of 20 damage a hit. The first 2 attacks are going to hit unless he rolls a nat 1, so there a given, the next two have a 70% chance to hit, and the next two (although iffy) have a 45% and last one we'll assume is going to whiff. Thats a high probabilty for at LEAST 80 damage a turn, and possibly 120. Whereas this same Gnome fighter is likely to have a HP score of around 320 without HP boosting feats. Sure, the wizard can dish out 120 MAX a turn (Not use non-core spells and feats, etc.) but unless he casts defensively the fighter gets an AoO not to mention if the Fighter is ready actions to disrupt spell casting, in which case the wizard runs a risk of losing his spell and wasting his turn. I'm not arguing that Wizards are weaker than fighters but the reverse isn't true either, I find the core classes fairly well balanced (assuming you take roleplaying into account) and I'm tired of these "accepted assumptions" that certain classes are inherently fail. I understand if a core class doesn't do what you want it to do so you tweak it, but not all monks should get full BAB nor should Fighters get abilities every level as well as feats... ugh..

Sorry about my rant, it kinda got off topic. I actually like what you've done here, kinda like a different take on the Occult Slayer.

That's my silver piece.

[Limos]

Here's a thought, the Abolisher is doing away with the magic and reinforcing reality. We all know that real weaponry is quite a bit more deadly than DnD weaponry.

Just give him the bonuses he would normally get from a slightly below par level magic item and call it

Harsh Reality (Su) Starting at Xth level an Abolisher gains a X bonus to Attack Rolls and Damage.

You could also implement some sort of bleeding damage since in a non-magical universe people can't take six hits from a battleaxe without bleeding to death.

[Ascension]

Insert obligatory "But HP doesn't actually measure physical damage" protest here.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Off topic reply to Chokuto:


emphasis added.

Why does EVERYONE on these boards say this! :smallfurious: It's not true!

It is indeed. Here's why:


Lets say a 20 lvl wizard has a HP score of 150, which is being generous since I gave him 16 con and Improved Toughness as a feat, which I've never seen a wizard grab,

Assuming he has not polymorphed into a form with improved Con or has not cast one of the many spells granting increased HP.


and an AC of 25,

Assuming he has not polymorphed into a form with natural armor or has not cast one of the many spells granting increased AC.


A 20 lvl GNOME fighter TWF, will gain 7 attacks in a full attack, and lets say he's wielding +3 longswords instead of bastard swords or Dwarven waraxes, his total accuracy to hit is +24/+24/+19/+19/+14/+14/+9 and dealing a AVERAGE (assuming he rolled a 3 on his d6's) of 20 damage a hit.

Assuming he has not polymorphed into a form with DR or cast one of the many spells granting DR.


The first 2 attacks are going to hit unless he rolls a nat 1, so there a given,

Assuming he does not have any form of concealment (blur), any form of miss chance (blink), or any contingency to avoid the attacks (contingent teleport).


Sure, the wizard can dish out 120 MAX a turn (Not use non-core spells and feats, etc.)

Assuming he bothers with actual damage, instead of a save-or-suck spell. (And by the way, maximized disintegrate is a fairly straightforward 240 damage.)


but unless he casts defensively

...which he will, because he will have 23 ranks in Concentration and thus automatically make the DC 24 check...


the fighter gets an AoO not to mention if the Fighter is ready actions to disrupt spell casting, in which case the wizard runs a risk of losing his spell and wasting his turn.

Assuming the fighter can actually (A) get to the wizard and (B) hit the wizard.


I'm not arguing that Wizards are weaker than fighters but the reverse isn't true either, I find the core classes fairly well balanced (assuming you take roleplaying into account)

Roleplaying is not a source of mechanical balance. You cannot judge whether the wizard or fighter is better mechanically based on roleplaying considerations. Were that the case, you could simply roleplay a pacifist wizard who never wants to hurt someone and the wizard loses by default.


and I'm tired of these "accepted assumptions" that certain classes are inherently fail.

They are accepted because they have been mathematically verified with statistical analysis and CharOp tests.

If you go into it assuming that a fighter is standing next to an unbuffed, unprepared wizard and gets to act first, then of course the fighter's going to appear better, but I guarantee you that that will never happen. You need to consider all of the abilities of both classes. And before you say "But the wizard won't have all those spells prepared..." he can easily cover all of those bases with 2-4 spell slots, each of which can be filled with a multitude of spells that achieve the desired result, so there is no One True Spell Selection needed.

[Zeful]

emphasis added.
<Snip>

Because a Wizard can simply cast the following two spells and render himself completely invulnerable to the fighter's entire schtick.

Fly
Solid Fog

The wizard is now 50ft straight up and arrows can't hit him through the fog. Ever.
Then there's the benefit of concealment, even if you could hit the Wizard, you can't see him. The fact that almost every single one of his spells can hit you outside of the first four range increments of almost every ranged weapon.
Or he can simply charm you when your sleepy, take the first watch, and then CDG you with a scythe. 2d4 averages out to roughly 5 damage, which four times over gives us a fort save versus death equal to 30, at level one, with a 10 strength. At higher levels when the wizard has a magic weapon, Enlarge Person and Bulls strength on hand (say level 5) he can easily force a save of DC 58.

If you play D&D as it was originally played, a fighter could reasonably kill a wizard, even a powerful one. You play the wizard as his intelligence dictates, then the fighter is just there to look menacing and clean up after you. Like a well armored butler.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

If you play D&D as it was originally played, a fighter could reasonably kill a wizard, even a powerful one. You play the wizard as his intelligence dictates, then the fighter is just there to look menacing and clean up after you. Like a well armored butler.

To be fair, if by "as it was originally played" you mean "in prior editions," that's because non-magical types were actually competent (only ones with multiple attacks, class features that couldn't be achieved with buffs, fighter-only items, failed saves only on a 1, etc.) and casters actually had drawbacks (took forever to prepare spells, limited spells known even for wizards, took initiative penalties for higher-level spells, couldn't avoid losing spells with Concentration, etc.). The fighter wasn't always the glorified commoner he is now.

[Zeful]

I'm aware of the fighter's past. Which was my point.

[Chokuto]

I feel we are getting off of thread's topic, but I'm not convinced yet, I opened a new thread for this discussion here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6435733#post6435733

[PairO'Dice Lost]

I'm aware of the fighter's past. Which was my point.

That's what I figured, but I wanted to make sure--you could also have meant "originally played" as in "the way the designers playtested it," and that would have the same conclusion but much different reasoning.

[Realms of Chaos]

I made a couple of changes and introduced a couple more feats.

First of all, you will notice that disrupt flow now has a miniature undo augmentations effect tagged on. This is to give the abolisher some way to deal with augmentations before 12th level.

Next, I altered the Void Within Void feat so that instead of working inside dead magic zones and antimagic zones, the abilities simply become extraordinary (but still work on incorporeal creatures). This isn't too big of a change but it is there.

There are 3 new feats:

Feat 1, requiring Void within Void, pretty much uses the logic that having removed your reliance on the supernatural, that you can fight against the supernatural yourself. It cancels out a good many monster effects, some granted abilities of vestiges, many monk powers, and wildshape. Note that while you can gain this feat as early at 5th level, it doesn't stop wildshaping until 13th level.

Feat 2 (or maybe Feat 3, I forgot the order) is something pretty much designed to take out the two golden (or adamantine, as the case may be) bullets that wizards have recieved, quickened spells and celerity. There is a decent amount of logic behind the feat, it is gained at a pretty late level (at least level 12), and it is one of the few things that can scare the bajeebers out of a full caster.
Simultaneously, though, it isn't that powerful. Taking away the ability of a wizard to destroy two party members instead of one is hardly overpowered. Similarly, taking the celerity spells (spells ranking up there with contingency and polymorph for brokenness) isn't a serious blow to wizards everywhere (you can still benefit from greater celerity but you would have to cast it as a standard action, netting you a single move action).

The final feat is something vaguely intended to put abolishers on closer-to-even footing with fighters so they stop resembling wet cardboard so much. It helps remove the disadvantage for not having magical armor and weaponry, giving you a bonus to hit and damage against magically armored foes and a bonus to AC against magically armed foes (Do you think that DR 1/- is also justified?).
Of course, when the abolisher gains undo augmentation, they still get bonuses due to the enemy's (currently suppressed) weapons and armor (or at least this was my intention. I may have worded it incorrectly), putting them ahead of the competition (less so if the fighter smartly abandons their magic weapon in place of a masterwork one).

Thoughts?

[Milskidasith]

An idea for a new feat:

Painful Neutralization

Not sure on the prereqs.

Any buff spell or spell like ability neutralized by the abolisher harms the person the buff was on. When a buff is neutralized, the person who previously had the buff has a penalty equal to one half of the original buffs benefits for 1 round/3 abolisher levels.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

The final feat is something vaguely intended to put abolishers on closer-to-even footing with fighters so they stop resembling wet cardboard so much. It helps remove the disadvantage for not having magical armor and weaponry, giving you a bonus to hit and damage against magically armored foes and a bonus to AC against magically armed foes (Do you think that DR 1/- is also justified?).

It's a good concept, but I don't know whether it's the right power level. On the one hand, we don't want it to be too good against martial types or they're all-around amazing. On the other hand, to get a comparable weapon to normal wealth by level he's using up basically all of his feats. I'll take another look later and see if I have any ideas.

[Realms of Chaos]

Well, let's calculate against a regular fighter. If he takes the feat 10 times and fights off against a fighter with +10 armor, a +10 sheild, and a +10 weapon (including random enhancements).

In total, the Abolisher gets +10 AC and +10 to attack and damage rolls while undo augmentation takes way the fighter's magical bonuses.

+10 AC is impressive against what is effectively a masterwork weapon but the fighter will likely have good strength and the abolisher is likely to have not improved their armor proficiencies, leaving them with nonmagical medium armor and no shield. Plus, if the fighter switches their weapon with a masterwork one (or a random club lying on the ground), that defensive bonus is gone.
The offensive bonus is a bit more powerful. Even if the shield is ditched in a hurry, the full bonus remains unless the fighter spends the long time needed to escape their armor (and even then, donning a new suit of armor seems unlikeley). Then again, we can think of the first +5 bonus makes up for 3/4 BAB and that the other +5 attack bonus and +5 of the damage bonus make up for not having a magical weapon. This leaves an extra +5 damage, which is made up for by only having 3 attacks with the full attack option.

All in all, it looks as though the fighter has a real competition on its hands until you realize that they have better armor, more hit points, and that we haven't taken into account any of the fighter's bonus feats.

The fighter would definitely win that match, although the abolisher could hold it off for a round or two (exactly what I was going for). Barbarians, rogues, monks, crusaders, swordsages, and warblades definitely have an easier time but the abolisher can still hold them off for a short while.

The fight is about an even match against partial casters and gish classes like the factotum, the ranger, the paladin (if the abolisher is evil), the hexblade, and the duskblade.

In short, this thing fights expertly against classes that are full casters, fights on even grounds against classes that happen to use magic, and can struggle for a bit against classes that rely on magic (including everything but incarnum and martial adepts).

[Eerie]

So, can this fellow kill a prepared wizard of the same level?

[Jane_Smith]

If your going to make an anti-magic class that hates and specializes in killing magic-users, etc?

Make a code of conduct like effect - they cant use their abilities when wearing any magic items, and cannot willingly use/accept spells from allies. Like the Forsaker.

If you hate magic so much, do not even use the fruits of magic... Or your just a hypocrit.

[Eerie]

If you hate magic so much, do not even use the fruits of magic... Or your just a hypocrit.

Hey, ends justify the means. As long as you use magic to kill casters, it is fine. :smallbiggrin:

[PairO'Dice Lost]

If he takes the feat 10 times

And that's the issue. Even with bonus feats, the Abolisher only gets 12 in his entire career. By 15th level, most folks can get a +10 weapon and some +10 armor; the abolisher still hasn't caught up if he's trying to use feats to make up for it, and even if he does he's missing out on other feats like Power Attack or the Mage Slayer chain.

Again, he shouldn't be too good, but I'm not sure if a feat is the way to go about it. Maybe a scaling bonus based on class level would be better?

[Jane_Smith]

No. Its not. Plus, if I was the dm, I would have mage's guilds hunt them down, not to mention magical artisans price gouge the hell out of magical items for any known 'mage slayer' like this, mainly for fear he/she will use it against them some day.

At the very least, if not a 'vow' of non-magic, then some ability that makes the character a Resistant. Aka, no magic functions on them after a certain point, not from items, buffs, potions, etc. Such as - if you use any of your powers, your magical items are suppressed for X rounds.

I truly -despise- people who say magic is broken/evil/vile/etc, then turn around and use magic items. I wish I could beat them to the death with a staff of spell storing just for lolz. :smallsigh:

[Eerie]

Then, perhaps, the lore for Abolisher is wrong?

Abolisher should be a person who is very talented in anti-magic warfare. She doesn`t automatically hates magic, she is just good in breaking it.

[Realms of Chaos]

Jane_Smith: The feat in question doesn't actually give the abolisher magic weaponry. What it does is give you bonuses when fighting someone with magical weaponry.
I don't see much opportunity for hipocracy, personally. Due to his neutralization class feature, he can only even be targetted by the strongest enhancement spells that your party can muster (and not even those when using his disruptive surge). Likewise, he requires very strong items in order for them to function (and he can't benefit from any magic items starting at 12th level).
I hadn't even considered stopping the character from willingly accepting spells before you suggested it, which really brings us to...

Eerie: That is a great idea that you have. I have changed the fluff of the class so that only some of them truly seek abolition of magic (the rest just happen to be highly resistant, something that happens puts them at odds with spellcasters more often than not). Furthermore, I have written in that even those extremist abolishers typically focus their assaults on magic based on their alignment (good guys kill harmful sources of magic while bad guys kill good sources. lawful guys kill those that threaten society while chaotic ones kill those that society relies too heavily upon). They tend to overlook or even accept magic from beings other than their current enemies (if it passes through their protection).

[Dante & Vergil]

Awsome class, RoC!:smallcool:
I just wanted to ask it there was anything else that was going to be made for this class?

[Mulletmanalive]

To be fair, if by "as it was originally played" you mean "in prior editions," that's because non-magical types were actually competent (only ones with multiple attacks, class features that couldn't be achieved with buffs, fighter-only items, failed saves only on a 1, etc.) and casters actually had drawbacks (took forever to prepare spells, limited spells known even for wizards, took initiative penalties for higher-level spells, couldn't avoid losing spells with Concentration, etc.). The fighter wasn't always the glorified commoner he is now.

Technically inaccurate. Multiple attacks were available from several sources amongst the spells: Holy Power, Mordenkainnen's Sword and Tenser's Transformation all granted multiple attacks, as did the Elixer of Heroism.

You do raise an accurate key point though, high level magic was actively balanced against lower level magic with casting times and other side effects and anything that messed with time would have you aging to dust like a Nazi with the Grail if you used it too often.

I, for one, actually miss those days because preparing for an expedition was fairly exciting if you were playing a Planar level wizard [12th level plus]


By 15th level, most folks can get a +10 weapon and some +10 armor;
Never encountered that, but then again, i've mostly played with DMs who hold to the 'No Magic Shops!' rule of Gygax era materials [and the DMG 3.5 now you mention it]. Then again, I've never actually encountered an Uber build in play because most of them don't seem to be possible to play for at least some of their career...even our resident power gamer got sick of sucking while trying to pull one of them off, despite the promised rewards.

[Zaydos]

I like and I think it's got the perfect place in my campaign... gives some reason for other races having held out somewhat against the stereotypical uber-elven magical empire. Time to favorite this thread.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Technically inaccurate. Multiple attacks were available from several sources amongst the spells: Holy Power, Mordenkainnen's Sword and Tenser's Transformation all granted multiple attacks, as did the Elixer of Heroism.

I meant that caster classes didn't innately get multiple attacks; back then you had to cast a spell to get them, whereas now an unbuffed cleric already gets up to 3 attacks from BAB alone.


You do raise an accurate key point though, high level magic was actively balanced against lower level magic with casting times and other side effects and anything that messed with time would have you aging to dust like a Nazi with the Grail if you used it too often.

I, for one, actually miss those days because preparing for an expedition was fairly exciting if you were playing a Planar level wizard [12th level plus]

I very much miss them as well. When playing a wizard, I found it almost as fun to figure out ways to use the less obvious spells to good effect (to avoid the penalties of the more powerful spells) as actually going on the adventure!



Never encountered that, but then again, i've mostly played with DMs who hold to the 'No Magic Shops!' rule of Gygax era materials [and the DMG 3.5 now you mention it]. Then again, I've never actually encountered an Uber build in play because most of them don't seem to be possible to play for at least some of their career...even our resident power gamer got sick of sucking while trying to pull one of them off, despite the promised rewards.

It's not an "uber build" or "magic shop" thing at all; if you have a crafter in the party, you can craft +10 items at level 15, often much more quickly and cheaply than normal if they're really focused on it--and an artificer can obviously do much better than that.

[imp_fireball]

Without the ability to use magic in any form, the class would very swiftly fall behind the power curve. Even if he took Vow of Poverty he'd be pretty lacklustre.

I know you want a sort of "magical anathema" feel, but without standard boosts to attack rolls, he'll never be able to hit anything. And he has abilities that rely on hitting things!

He could use... I don't know, technology? :smalltongue:

*pulls out gnomish heat seeking fists*

[Melayl]

I could be completely wrong, but aren't Artificer Infusions non-magical?

[PairO'Dice Lost]

I could be completely wrong, but aren't Artificer Infusions non-magical?

They're specifically not arcane or divine, but they're still magical.

[Melayl]

They're specifically not arcane or divine, but they're still magical.

Oh well, it was worth a shoat. Thanks for the clarification. I haven't looked at that class in quite a while.