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SinsI
2009-07-04, 11:39 AM
Class and Level Geekery threads are full of those assuming Xykon is level 28 or higher, having went epic in some of the prequel books.

But how could he get so high if one doesn't get XP for defeating enemies more than 10 levels below you? V at Haerta's effective level didn't get any for defeating 1/4 of the world's black dragon population - incuding an ancient spellcasting wyrm!

And OOTS world is supposed to be pretty low-level - they were even doubting that it had a 17-th level cleric at all!

theinsulabot
2009-07-04, 11:40 AM
plane shifting to other realms and fighting higher level enemies therein?

rewinn
2009-07-04, 11:46 AM
Class and Level Geekery threads are full of those assuming Xykon is level 28 or higher, having went epic in some of the prequel books.

But how could he get so high if one doesn't get XP for defeating enemies more than 10 levels below you? V at Haerta's effective level didn't get any for defeating 1/4 of the world's black dragon population - incuding an ancient spellcasting wyrm!

And OOTS world is supposed to be pretty low-level - they were even doubting that it had a 17-th level cleric at all!

Perhaps there's some sort of XP-cut-out on Epic Levels spells, such that the normal flow of XP is diverted away from the caster (...perhaps into powering the spell?)

Otherwise, someone would invent the Epic Spell "Kill Enough Stuff 9 Levels Below Me To Level Me Up" which would surely annoy the gods who'd set up the XP system.

kusje
2009-07-04, 11:47 AM
Lirian?Durokon? Soon + Azure city?

y2kyle89
2009-07-04, 11:48 AM
Role-playing?

FlawedParadigm
2009-07-04, 11:49 AM
Maybe the reason OotS-world (it could use an actually name, don't you think? The Stickverse? Maybe Rich'll help us out here eventually) is a low-level place to begin with is because of Xykon, these days. Heh. I mean, within the confines of the story and excluding happenings we don't know about, the only other actual Epic characters anywhere were the Order of the Scribble, two of whom were killed by Xykon personally (SoD), and two more confirmed dead (Kraagor and Soon.) The other two may or may not still be alive.

Before Xykon got involved with the Gates, he spent a good deal of time flying around and randomly slaughtering things for his amusement, more or less. There's been hints that he spends a good deal of off-camera time continuing in this trend. It seems like he's put an awful lot of effort into ensuring he's the biggest fish in the pond, and it might be that he's succeeding.

SinsI
2009-07-04, 12:13 PM
plane shifting to other realms and fighting higher level enemies therein?
A 20th level character has to defeat 32 other 20th level characters to get to 21.
Continue the progression - and you get one character of level 28 per more than 1 trillion of 20th level characters...

Zerg Cookie
2009-07-04, 12:24 PM
He gets free "Main villian" XP

Callista
2009-07-04, 12:53 PM
A 20th level character has to defeat 32 other 20th level characters to get to 21.
Continue the progression - and you get one character of level 28 per more than 1 trillion of 20th level characters...Yeah, that's why you have epic monsters... otherwise it just gets stupid.

Kish
2009-07-04, 01:03 PM
V at Haerta's effective level

There is not the slightest indication that Vaarsuvius was treated as merely equivalent in level to the highest-level character in the splice, and quite a bit of indication that s/he is treated as more than that.

didn't get any for defeating 1/4 of the world's black dragon population
You get 0 XP for killing any number of foes of any power level when you kill them by casting a single spell against which they have no way of defending themselves. That's commonextremely uncommon sense.

Cizak
2009-07-04, 01:07 PM
He gets free "Main villian" XP

Yeah, remember that Crystal got free Xp for being a rival to Haley, maybye Xykon gets Xp for being the main villain?

Zerg Cookie
2009-07-04, 01:24 PM
btw, there is no proof that Xykon is higher than level 26...
Where did you get that 28 from?

The Glyphstone
2009-07-04, 01:43 PM
btw, there is no proof that Xykon is higher than level 26...
Where did you get that 28 from?

I'm betting the Class and Level Geekery thread. Seriously, those guys are nuts at overanalysis, but they've pinpointed the levels of basically every character based on in-comic evidence to a reasonable degree.

Nerdanel
2009-07-04, 01:46 PM
I think Xykon had found an XP generator from defeating O-chul over and over again while O-chul also levelled up.

The best XP is reusable XP, especially if you have stacked the CR in your favor by increasing your power in ways that don't increase your CR while doing the opposite to the XP source. It also helps if you belong to a powerful PC class and your opponent doesn't.

Ancalagon
2009-07-04, 01:52 PM
Where did you get that 28 from?

26ish +- is a rough enough estimate... why not 28ish +-, that could also lead to 26. I doubt it matters...

Nerdanel
2009-07-04, 02:14 PM
If you think Xykon has crafted himself a ring of fire immunity like he implied, that would mean his level is 33+!

Kairamek
2009-07-04, 02:14 PM
Role-playing?

Those repeated and well thought out Hannible Lectures gotta be worth something. I mean if I had a character doing that in all the major battles with a reoccuring villian (or hero in an evil campain) he'd be getting RP XP all the time.

Disclaimer: The thoughts and opinions of this poster are his own and do not express those of other DMs. His experance as a DM is limited and and he has not run or played table top game in over four years. Do not take Kairamek's opinions if you nursing, pregnant or could become pregnant as he doesn't know anything about these subjects. For erect- :roy: We're Done Here. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0324.html)

factotum
2009-07-04, 02:55 PM
Just because there aren't many high-level characters around doesn't mean there aren't high-level monsters to fight. Just as a simple example, the Ancient Black Dragon that V defeated would be CR23 (assuming she had several Sorcerer levels), and a level 28 Xykon would easily earn XP for defeating such a beast.

Corwin Weber
2009-07-04, 03:02 PM
Just because there aren't many high-level characters around doesn't mean there aren't high-level monsters to fight. Just as a simple example, the Ancient Black Dragon that V defeated would be CR23 (assuming she had several Sorcerer levels), and a level 28 Xykon would easily earn XP for defeating such a beast.

....but that would still take literally dozens of fights exactly like that (or more) just to go up one level.

I have to say I'm not seeing this either. What exactly do epic characters do? Go pick fights with gods? That's a pretty limited xp pool as well.... there are only just so many of them. I don't have the 3.5 books, and haven't read them. (I'm looking for them, I'll probably have to get them off Amazon. Nobody local to me carries them anymore.... it's all 4) With the exponential increase in XP needed to level, I'm just not seeing how epic characters do enough to get beyond about level 22 at most. Roleplaying xp? Ok.... even if you scale it up for epic levels you're still only talking about 5% of the xp they need at most.

For those of us who dropped off at 2nd edition, what are we missing here?

grautry
2009-07-04, 03:08 PM
For those of us who dropped off at 2nd edition, what are we missing here?

In normal D&D?

The fact that planes are just about infinite. There's absolutely no shortage whatsoever of other epic beings to fight and defeat.

You could easily advance to level ~30 just by decimating dragons. And that's not even going beyond the Material Plane.


A 20th level character has to defeat 32 other 20th level characters to get to 21.
Continue the progression - and you get one character of level 28 per more than 1 trillion of 20th level characters...

Two words: True Resurrection. Those 20th level characters aren't going to just disappear forever. In most cases they will have allies that will bring them back.

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-07-04, 03:11 PM
Killing a single monster of your CR on your own (without a party) counts as an encounter 4 levels higher (or rather, you count as a party ECL of -4).

Kill 5-6 of those and you level.

Ancalagon
2009-07-04, 03:14 PM
For those of us who dropped off at 2nd edition, what are we missing here?

Monsters and encounters that are above level 20 (and therefore epic). OotS does not seem to be a high-power world, but there seem to be a few epic characters and monsters around... but I doubt Xykon had picked in such powerful creatures "off screen", so the only epic foes he defeated are those we saw in-comic (maybe the silver dragon in his old tower, then there are only Lirian and Dorukan, he cannot claim to have overcome Soon, so no xp here).

From the end of the Dungeon of Dorukan (apart from the Silver Dragon and other stuff in his old tower) to now... are only RP-xp possible, since he didn't fight anything that could have given him xp. I assume he might have gotten xp from defeating the Vaarsuvius-encounter (who might not have a CR of 80-something, but a CR at least in the 20s seems appropriate).

We do not know what he did in SoD in the gap before the end (before he collected new goblins). He could have gotten lots of levels in these years...

Morquard
2009-07-04, 03:25 PM
....but that would still take literally dozens of fights exactly like that (or more) just to go up one level.
I'm sure there are other monsters there that are equaly high and easier to farm (because there are more of them) than dragons.

And why is it suddenly so bad that they have to "kill dozens of them to level up", when its basicly the same all the time?
A level 10 character has to kill dozens other level 10s and hundreds of level 5s to level.
As people pointed out there's no shortage on Epic monsters, so I don't see why the epic adventureres should have problems leveling further up.

And just bencause Haley knows of no 17+ cleric... doesn't mean there's none. And she was most likely exagerating anyway, just wanting to stress that they're rare and probably noone in the area.

SODHis fight with Durokan was a close one, but I think Durokan actually had a couple of levels on Xykon there. Once he was a lich he pretty much wiped the floor with Lirian though. Just took that long because he was toying with her.

But seriously about Xykon he gets his main xp from "plot".
Just like Crystal he's exactly the level he has to be at any given point.

Ancalagon
2009-07-04, 03:30 PM
And just bencause Haley knows of no 17+ cleric... doesn't mean there's none. And she was most likely exagerating anyway, just wanting to stress that they're rare and probably noone in the area..

I do not know... the boss of the thieves guild of the main-thief-city in the world who also quite effectively farmed xp did not seem to be epic. Bozzok is level 18ish, but he surely did not seem much higher, so it seems safe to assume he's sub-epic.

And if he, as boss of the blabla in the thief city blabla is not epic, it seems also safe to assume there are not that many epic characters around. There are some... but not THAT many. I guess the same would be true for monsters - there are some, but it's not that the countrysides are crowded with them so you could "just go out and get epic-xp".

Morquard
2009-07-04, 03:46 PM
I do not know... the boss of the thieves guild of the main-thief-city in the world who also quite effectively farmed xp did not seem to be epic. Bozzok is level 18ish, but he surely did not seem much higher, so it seems safe to assume he's sub-epic.

And if he, as boss of the blabla in the thief city blabla is not epic, it seems also safe to assume there are not that many epic characters around. There are some... but not THAT many. I guess the same would be true for monsters - there are some, but it's not that the countrysides are crowded with them so you could "just go out and get epic-xp".
Well you also have to assume that all the people that his guild captures and executes are most likely non-epic themselves, so that of course limits his potential rise.

I hardly see those guys arresting a gang of Ancient Black Dragons who go on an unauthorized thiefing trip in the city :D
And any other epic thief is most likely good enough to a) not get caught by them and b) good enoguh to still in a city thats not a complete mess and actually has stuff worth stealing :)

Random832
2009-07-04, 03:54 PM
Class and Level Geekery threads are full of those assuming Xykon is level 28 or higher, having went epic in some of the prequel books.

IIRC those assumptions don't come from that, but rather from the fact that the number of epic feats he has shown evidence of having indicate he has to be at least - i thought it was level 26, not 28. I think it was 28 if you assume his item of Fire Immunity is a ring.

Jaltum
2009-07-04, 06:29 PM
Lirian was completely unprepared, and didn't seem to recognize that Xykon was a lich, also. She wasted a lot of attacks on things he was immune to.

In general, despite the high level of D&D background knowledge, people seem pretty ignorant about liches in OotSverse; it's not like the flanking rules or something. That's been a big advantage for Xykon all along.

Underground
2009-07-04, 06:33 PM
Class and Level Geekery threads are full of those assuming Xykon is level 28 or higher, having went epic in some of the prequel books.

But how could he get so high if one doesn't get XP for defeating enemies more than 10 levels below you? [...] Xykon is not a PC and therefore the DM simply assigns him a level that fits the DMs purposes.

Other than that, yes it doesnt really make sense that Xykon is that powerful. If he would be a century old lich, OK. But he is an old human who allied with a Goblin, became a lich, and is already level 28 now ? Hard to understand ... unless Redcloak himself got some anti-aging enhancement too.

Finwe
2009-07-04, 06:52 PM
unless Redcloak himself got some anti-aging enhancement too.

SOD Spoiler
He did

Morquard
2009-07-04, 07:03 PM
Xykon is not a PC and therefore the DM simply assigns him a level that fits the DMs purposes.

Other than that, yes it doesnt really make sense that Xykon is that powerful. If he would be a century old lich, OK. But he is an old human who allied with a Goblin, became a lich, and is already level 28 now ? Hard to understand ... unless Redcloak himself got some anti-aging enhancement too.

Actually Xykon is over a century old :)
But he's been a lich for about 30 years of that. And the Crimson mantle slows Redcloaks aging considerably

Starscream
2009-07-04, 07:53 PM
Don't forget Story Awards. We know they exist in the Stickverse because the Order got one for beating the Dungeon of Dorukan.

Every time Xykon accomplishes a major goal he gets XP. So when he invaded Azure City, he probably not only got points for beating Soon and his paladins (who must be an epic level challenge considering they would have beaten both Xykon and Redcloak had Miko not interfered), but also for the taking of the city itself.

Or maybe he just spars with the MiTD. He must be keeping him around for some reason.

Ytaker
2009-07-04, 08:56 PM
Every time Xykon accomplishes a major goal he gets XP. So when he invaded Azure City, he probably not only got points for beating Soon and his paladins (who must be an epic level challenge considering they would have beaten both Xykon and Redcloak had Miko not interfered), but also for the taking of the city itself.

Xykon fled from the battle with his tale between his legs. He wouldn't get any exp from that.

He would, yeah, probably get a few thousand from the city.

awibs
2009-07-05, 12:59 AM
Xykon is not a PC and therefore the DM simply assigns him a level that fits the DMs purposes.

Other than that, yes it doesnt really make sense that Xykon is that powerful. If he would be a century old lich, OK. But he is an old human who allied with a Goblin, became a lich, and is already level 28 now ? Hard to understand ... unless Redcloak himself got some anti-aging enhancement too.

The red cloak explicitly gives that power. He and his Little Brother, who is visibly much older than him by the time, have an angsty character-climax bit of dialogue about how the problem was that he hasn't changed at all.

TheBlueDragon
2009-07-05, 09:42 AM
Xykon is an NPC. He doesn't need to gain XP.

Larkspur
2009-07-05, 12:10 PM
Lirian was completely unprepared, and didn't seem to recognize that Xykon was a lich, also. She wasted a lot of attacks on things he was immune to.

In general, despite the high level of D&D background knowledge, people seem pretty ignorant about liches in OotSverse; it's not like the flanking rules or something. That's been a big advantage for Xykon all along.

People seem pretty ignorant of strategy and natural history in general. Xykon vs. the ghost martyrs, for instance. The Order of the Stick should have sat down with a sourcebook at some point and figured out exactly what Xykon was vulnerable to, but even bookworm V hasn't bothered. Everyone knows their own racial/class abilities, and they sometimes know enough about other classes that they can tell when someone else is badly optimized (when it's as blatant as Belkar), but Redcloak and Nale are really the only people who fight strategically on a regular basis.

Jaltum
2009-07-05, 02:15 PM
Oddly enough, I think those limitations on the metagaming are part of what make OotS work despite the 4th wall breaking; they mimic the level of 4th wall breakage in a real tabletop game.

Some players break character more than others (Durkon is consistent about his accent, if not very deep; Belkar struggles to find excuses to not murder the party), and every group of PCs has a certain level to which they openly talk mechanics vs. enforce roleplay--Roy telling the smith he can go ahead and call it a +5 sword, vs Roy acknowledging that he's overstepped when Miko reminds him there's no such place as Japan in this world. The NPCs are generally more IC and less meta-aware, to try and immerse the PCs, but this would obviously still be a pretty 'fast and loose' game; Miko turns around and talks about the Samurai class vs. the samurai social rank.

Despite that--if Roy wants to know IC that he didn't kill Xykon because of the phylactery, someone's going to have to make the roll. (Knowledge: Religion, right?) Only the (theoretical, nonexistent) DM is allowed to scour the sourcebooks, like Redcloak does, and even then only when setting up a conflict, for the most part. This covers things like the bouncy ball of doom--which probably wouldn't have been allowed versus PCs. Pretty cheap. But as an offscreen 'cinema'; eh, why not?

As a set of laws of physics, it's pretty screwy and inconsistent, but it feels a lot like the kind of game I've played in before, where no one takes things too seriously, but they do try to stay IC and not cheese too hard.

SinsI
2009-07-05, 02:42 PM
Xykon is not a PC and therefore the DM simply assigns him a level that fits the DMs purposes.

Xykon is an NPC. He doesn't need to gain XP.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0657.html
makes me think otherwise.

King of Nowhere
2009-07-05, 04:28 PM
Class and Level Geekery threads are full of those assuming Xykon is level 28 or higher, having went epic in some of the prequel books.

But how could he get so high if one doesn't get XP for defeating enemies more than 10 levels below you? V at Haerta's effective level didn't get any for defeating 1/4 of the world's black dragon population - incuding an ancient spellcasting wyrm!

And OOTS world is supposed to be pretty low-level - they were even doubting that it had a 17-th level cleric at all!

That's one of the reasons I doubt Xykon is so high. That's the second most important reason I doubt anyone in the world is below level 24-25 and I suppose Haerta was no higher than 30 (the first most important reason is that such a ludicrous level of power defies common sense)

archon_huskie
2009-07-05, 04:39 PM
Or maybe fighting a large number of low level challenge rating at once increases their effective Challenge rating

Morquard
2009-07-05, 04:42 PM
(the first most important reason is that such a ludicrous level of power defies common sense)
Welcome to the world of epic wizards in DnD :)

Corwin Weber
2009-07-05, 04:44 PM
That's one of the reasons I doubt Xykon is so high. That's the second most important reason I doubt anyone in the world is below level 24-25 and I suppose Haerta was no higher than 30 (the first most important reason is that such a ludicrous level of power defies common sense)

What's so ludicrous about it?

I mean sure, she has a few extra HD, (not many tho) and can cast epic spells, which are nice.... but expensive to create and she can't use all that many of them.

Why is everybody acting as though another 10 levels beyond 20 is somehow near godlike power? Casters don't get any more spells per day, (at least for non-epic spells) or any new abilities.... for that matter all they really seem to get (from reading SRD) is another feat or two (epic feats allowed, which are nice, sure.... but not godlike....)

Again, what am I missing here? I'll freely admit that I might be missing something. WOtC has continued TSR's 'oh my gods could it get more annoying' habit of only making vague, partial references to any details in any freely available material.... so without the books I could be missing something that's in them, but not in SRD....

Welf
2009-07-05, 05:27 PM
Well, there are epic level in the campaign world and a numer of high level charakters. Up to level 22-23 he only needs to kill foes with level 15-19, like Bozzok. And after that, well, he killed Lirian and Durokan. And Master Firion was probably also epic or near epic (assuming "Archmage" didn't referd to the prestige class). There seem to be also other epic level NPC, I suspect at least V's Master Aarindarius.

Edit: He also defeated soul-splitt V recently. Should be a big amount of XP for him, considering the CR.

The Vorpal Tribble
2009-07-05, 05:37 PM
How do they gain XP? They fight the things being entered into my official monthly GITP Monster Competition, of which this month's happens to be Epic-leveled. Link in my sig, come join in.

This advertisement brought to you Epic Inside.

Olorin93
2009-07-05, 06:16 PM
There is not the slightest indication that Vaarsuvius was treated as merely equivalent in level to the highest-level character in the splice, and quite a bit of indication that s/he is treated as more than that.

Exactly; hir effective level seems to be the sum of hers and her splices'. Bad for V, good for Xykon.


You get 0 XP for killing any number of foes of any power level when you kill them by casting a single spell against which they have no way of defending themselves. That's commonextremely uncommon sense.

As a DM, I'd say you wouldn't get XP from "defeating" anything you weren't actually engaged with. No risk == no XP.

King of Nowhere
2009-07-05, 06:55 PM
What's so ludicrous about it?

I mean sure, she has a few extra HD, (not many tho) and can cast epic spells, which are nice.... but expensive to create and she can't use all that many of them.

Why is everybody acting as though another 10 levels beyond 20 is somehow near godlike power? Casters don't get any more spells per day, (at least for non-epic spells) or any new abilities.... for that matter all they really seem to get (from reading SRD) is another feat or two (epic feats allowed, which are nice, sure.... but not godlike....)

Again, what am I missing here? I'll freely admit that I might be missing something. WOtC has continued TSR's 'oh my gods could it get more annoying' habit of only making vague, partial references to any details in any freely available material.... so without the books I could be missing something that's in them, but not in SRD....

I'm not the biggest expert in epic levels, but almost every epic spell I ever heard of was vastly overpowered. Anyway, my problem is not the "epic" part, since I find excessive even the level of power from, let's say, 15th level. That with my minmaxing skill. Undead Prince or some other capable power player will show you some ways characters can be vastly overpowered even at level 10.
I mean, a party of high level adventurers can defeat a whole army of thousands of men. One of them could be killed by attrition since 20 always hit, but with a cleric to support that is no more a problem. In fact, a high level cleric or druid could take down an army alone.
They could survive falling from every height over spikes, with only marginal injury. Basically the only challenge you can put in their path is someone who is as powerful as them or more.
In a campaign they should be fighting threats of their level regularly, yet there are very few threats of their level, so either the world is crammed with epic monsters, or a high level party should quickly run out of targets

tyckspoon
2009-07-05, 06:57 PM
What's so ludicrous about it?

I mean sure, she has a few extra HD, (not many tho) and can cast epic spells, which are nice.... but expensive to create and she can't use all that many of them.

Why is everybody acting as though another 10 levels beyond 20 is somehow near godlike power? Casters don't get any more spells per day, (at least for non-epic spells) or any new abilities.... for that matter all they really seem to get (from reading SRD) is another feat or two (epic feats allowed, which are nice, sure.... but not godlike....)

Again, what am I missing here? I'll freely admit that I might be missing something. WOtC has continued TSR's 'oh my gods could it get more annoying' habit of only making vague, partial references to any details in any freely available material.... so without the books I could be missing something that's in them, but not in SRD....

There's not really anything important missing from the SRD version of the Epic rules. You may simply be underestimating the value of the feats, especially for Epic caster; casters have the best Epic feats, and having more of them than your opponent can make the difference (especially if those extra feats are things like Multispell/Automatic Quicken/Improved Spell Capacity/Improved Metamagic.) Any level where your skill rank cap is a multiple of 10 is also an important marker, because that gets you another Epic Spell slot, so level 27+ compared to 26 is a pretty big deal.

Corwin Weber
2009-07-05, 07:09 PM
There's not really anything important missing from the SRD version of the Epic rules. You may simply be underestimating the value of the feats, especially for Epic caster; casters have the best Epic feats, and having more of them than your opponent can make the difference (especially if those extra feats are things like Multispell/Automatic Quicken/Improved Spell Capacity/Improved Metamagic.) Any level where your skill rank cap is a multiple of 10 is also an important marker, because that gets you another Epic Spell slot, so level 27+ compared to 26 is a pretty big deal.

I've looked over the feats, and yeah, some of them seem nice, I'll agree. But they're more nice than ZOMG HAX!!!!!! Besides, there are a whole bunch of more general ones that people are going to want to take. Even the six feats for most classes (by my math, for casters at least) between level 20 and level 30.... you're probably not going to be able to take everything you want or even need. Especially when you consider that eventually you're going to need to be fighting epic monsters to level most likely..... Them I've looked over. They tend to be nasty. Not soloable.

The most common special abilities for them seem to be 'immune to everything' and 'kill you by looking at you.' Bit of a discrepancy between them and epic characters, if you ask me.... but again, maybe I'm still missing something.

app
2009-07-05, 07:34 PM
You'd be surprised how often people pop in to kill you when you're doing an evil scheme (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html)

Since they seem unfazed by an epic caster breaking through the cloister, I would assume a fair bit of those are epic level challenges, hence Xykon leveling regularly

rewinn
2009-07-06, 11:16 AM
Two words: True Resurrection. Those 20th level characters aren't going to just disappear forever. In most cases they will have allies that will bring them back.

One could imagine epic heroes setting up some sort of Hall where they battle all day, and the casualties are True Resurrected to fight again the next day.

After a while, the heroes would be high enough level to fight Ragnarok!

FlawedParadigm
2009-07-06, 11:24 AM
One could imagine epic heroes setting up some sort of Hall where they battle all day, and the casualties are True Resurrected to fight again the next day.

After a while, the heroes would be high enough level to fight Ragnarok!

So...basically Mortal Kombat? Heh.

Timberboar
2009-07-06, 11:55 AM
With the exponential increase in XP needed to level ...
For those of us who dropped off at 2nd edition

I think I've found a source of some confusion here.

The leveling curve is much flatter in 3.X than it was in 2E. It's a linear progression, not an exponential one.

Random832
2009-07-06, 12:07 PM
The leveling curve is much flatter in 3.X than it was in 2E. It's a linear progression, not an exponential one.

No, it's a quadratic progression.

But you also get less XP from the same creatures as your level gets higher.

The 2e one actually levels off quite a bit around level 10 (9 to 11 depending on class), if you put it on a graph - it's exponential before that, but then becomes linear (but ends up higher than the 3e one by level 20, since it's a fairly steep line, and had a heavy exponential start)

Timberboar
2009-07-06, 12:14 PM
No, it's a quadratic progression.

But you also get less XP from the same creatures as your level gets higher.

Erm. So it is, so it is. *cough*

But the point about it being a much more flat curve still stands.

Random832
2009-07-06, 12:22 PM
Right - and even though the 2e one becomes linear, it's still very steep - even though quadratic always beats linear eventually, it remains that if you extrapolate both indefinitely, the 3e curve doesn't "beat" the 2e Fighter one until level 493. (121278000 3e, 121250000 2e Ftr). Of course, at those levels you can't really compare them, since a 3rd edition XP is worth much more than a 2nd edition one at that point.

SinsI
2009-07-06, 04:01 PM
Up to level 22-23 he only needs to kill foes with level 15-19, like Bozzok.
No. At lvl 21 he won't get any XP for defeating lvl15 (Xykon has +4 level adjustment due to Lich template).

Right - and even though the 2e one becomes linear, it's still very steep - even though quadratic always beats linear eventually, it remains that if you extrapolate both indefinitely, the 3e curve doesn't "beat" the 2e Fighter one until level 493. (121278000 3e, 121250000 2e Ftr). Of course, at those levels you can't really compare them, since a 3rd edition XP is worth much more than a 2nd edition one at that point.
You have to overcome 13 encounters of your effective level to level up. This stays constant throughout the 3.5 edition.

Random832
2009-07-06, 04:05 PM
You have to overcome 13 encounters of your effective level to level up. This stays constant throughout the 3.5 edition.

....right. what's your point?

SinsI
2009-07-06, 04:25 PM
....right. what's your point?
For Level Ups, it doesn't matter what rate it is - exponential, cubic, linear.
It can even be a constant - as long as you get less and less XP for defeating enemies weaker than you; all you have to do is reduce the XP cost for spells/item creation feats - and nobody would even notice any difference in the gameplay!

Exactly; his effective level seems to be the sum of his and his splices'. Bad for V, good for Xykon.
Effective level of a party consisting of V and those three arcane masters would've been just slightly above Haerta's, and such a party is considerably more powerful than a soulspliced V. Since level is proportional to power, there's no way dark V was higher than that.

GSFB
2009-07-06, 11:07 PM
Personally, I don't think you need to kill anything to get XP. You just need to spend time and effort practicing your craft. After all, a top-notch artisan might be a level 20 expert (think DaVinci, perhaps). Someone like that must be very high level to have all those skills with 20+ ranks. But does DaVinci run around slaughtering armies to gain XP?

Consider an archer - like, an Olympic competitor. Every day, fire a few hundred arrows at a target... always trying to hit a smaller and smaller target at a greater and greater distance. Practicing in the rain, wind, heat... after years of practice, this archer might have a "base attack bonus" of +30, but never once fired an arrow at any living thing.

Why can't characters be like this?

Some like Xykon might spend several hours each day just casting... he might use nearly every spell slot every day just casting meteor swarms at the sky and energy drains on small furry creatures - just to try to make each casting more powerful than the last. That's got to count for something.

Xykon is epic partly because he has killed many powerful foes. But he is also epic because HE WANTS TO BE THE BADDEST, and when he has no one to kill, he still works hard "killing" things in his mind. Other wizards might be content to just fire a meteor swarm. Xykon wants his meteor swarm to hurt more.

Corwin Weber
2009-07-07, 01:35 AM
I think I've found a source of some confusion here.

The leveling curve is much flatter in 3.X than it was in 2E. It's a linear progression, not an exponential one.

Yeah, I found that out recently.

That makes things a little better. It still isn't godlike power, but at least you don't need several million xp to go from 23rd to 24th level, and then twice that much to go from 24th to 25th.

Optimystik
2009-07-07, 06:15 AM
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0657.html
makes me think otherwise.

Xykon is not a PC. Redcloak defines the term (speaking as WoG for Rich) in the Origin preface.

Here's the quote:

...I am not a PC. For those unfamiliar with the term, "PC" in gaming circles means "Player Character," the characters that are created and controlled by the players of a fantasy roleplaying game. They are the protagonists, and the world quite literally revolves around them.
...
I am in fact, an NPC... They could have called us Gamemaster Characters, or Antagonist Characters...

Querzis
2009-07-07, 06:39 AM
Here we go again. Killing stuff is not the only way to gain XP and it was never meant to be the only way to gain XP. You're supposed to get as much XP, if not more, from achievement, quest, roleplaying and simply training. Tecnically, a character could get to epic level without ever killing or defeating anything, its just that it would take a lot longer then killing would. I'm quite sure about half of Xykon XP doesnt even come from killing stuff.

Even if you are epic, conquering a city like Azure city is bound to make you gain at least a level.

Rhadan
2009-07-07, 07:09 AM
Hrm, maybe Xykon, being the nemesis of several characters also gains XP whenever they gain XP?

And if this is true: The best villain should strive to be the nemesis of everyone in the world. XP by the gazillions! Wooo!

shaddy_24
2009-07-07, 08:34 AM
The other issue is that people forget that you get a lot more XP fighting alone. Normally the party splits the XP. Everyone gets 1/4th or 1/5th of the total. Xykon likely gets all of the XP, since Redcloak and others are likely too low leveled to get any XP from epic leveled threats. So if Xykon beat a CR 25 challenge, he gets a straight 7500 XP (Approximately), while a group of 4 PCs get 1875 each. A group of characters need 13 encounters of their level to level up, but Xykon gets 4x more XP per encounter of his level, meaning he levels up much faster.

Optimystik
2009-07-07, 08:48 AM
Even if you are epic, conquering a city like Azure city is bound to make you gain at least a level.

The trouble is that whatever XP he is gaining, he is also burning up on crafting various doodads 8 hours a day. In addition to that, he's already more than a match for the Order - he doesn't need to get even stronger on top of that. If they all attacked him right now, even without Redcloak's assistance they'd get their stick-figure posteriors handed to them. What narrative purpose would giving Xykon more levels serve?

grautry
2009-07-07, 09:36 AM
One could imagine epic heroes setting up some sort of Hall where they battle all day, and the casualties are True Resurrected to fight again the next day.

After a while, the heroes would be high enough level to fight Ragnarok!

I see what you did there sir, and I applaud you for it is funny. :smallbiggrin:

Querzis
2009-07-07, 10:38 AM
The trouble is that whatever XP he is gaining, he is also burning up on crafting various doodads 8 hours a day.

Edit: (Well now I feel silly, I should read those rules again sometimes).

But anyway, even if it does, its always totally worth it (I mean a ring that seems to make him immune to fire damage? Woah. Even if he lose a level with that, he still got a lot stronger.)


In addition to that, he's already more than a match for the Order - he doesn't need to get even stronger on top of that. If they all attacked him right now, even without Redcloak's assistance they'd get their stick-figure posteriors handed to them. What narrative purpose would giving Xykon more levels serve?

I dont get why you are saying that to me specifically, it apply to pretty much everyone in this thread. But either way, he is getting stronger. It really doesnt matter if he doesnt need to get stronger. Whos gonna be suicidal enough to tell him he should stop getting stronger so the heroes can catch up with him? And if you absolutely wanna see everything strictly from a narrative purpose (which is pretty lame), the purpose here is to show that its not only the heroes who can get stronger. The villain is not just gonna sit doing nothing while the heroes get stronger and stronger, thats just a sign of bad writing.

Random832
2009-07-07, 10:43 AM
We have no evidence that he craft things that would burn XP. Not all magical items require you to burn XP.

Um, yes they do.


To enchant a wondrous item, you must spend 1/25 of the item’s price in XP
To craft a ring, you must spend 1/25 of its base price in XP

I'd go on, but it'd just bore you - wands, scrolls, potions, stones, arms and armor, rods, staves, psi stuff - there aren't even any that are a different ratio than 1/25.

And, yeah, it's worth it (since price scales up more or less directly with usefulness), but the point being made is he won't have leveled up.

FlawedParadigm
2009-07-07, 10:55 AM
The worst part being that once the Order manages to defeat Xykon and Company, that vast load of magical items might not even do them any good - unless they end up in physical/magical combat with the Snarl itself, the campaign probably ends right around that time, too. D'oh!

Although, chances are *someone* will end up in combat with the Snarl. It was made a point to mention the Gods would be more vulnerable to the Snarl's attacks than mere mortals would be. It's the sort of thing one wouldn't trouble to mention unless it was going to come up at some point. It just might not be the Order fighting it. It'll be a long time before we know.

Optimystik
2009-07-07, 11:47 AM
I dont get why you are saying that to me specifically, it apply to pretty much everyone in this thread.

I did? :smallconfused:
I'm sorry if you felt I was calling you out, that wasn't my intention (I didn't even say your name.) I quoted your post because my points arose from the points you raised; I didn't say you were the only one to raise them.


But either way, he is getting stronger. It really doesnt matter if he doesnt need to get stronger. Whos gonna be suicidal enough to tell him he should stop getting stronger so the heroes can catch up with him? And if you absolutely wanna see everything strictly from a narrative purpose (which is pretty lame), the purpose here is to show that its not only the heroes who can get stronger. The villain is not just gonna sit doing nothing while the heroes get stronger and stronger, thats just a sign of bad writing.

But if the villain is already more than sufficient to handle the heroes, there's no need to make him any stronger. Besides, if the Giant makes him stronger, how would we know if his opponent doesn't push him to his limit? I'm reminded of a saying I once read; "if you were standing next to Albert Einstein and a lightning bolt struck him, causing him to be a million times smarter, how would you know?" If someone is already above you, elevating them even more doesn't make much difference from where you're standing.

(By "you" in that last post, I meant the generic "you," not "Querzis." :smalltongue:)

Ancalagon
2009-07-07, 11:58 AM
But if the villain is already more than sufficient to handle the heroes, there's no need to make him any stronger. Besides, if the Giant makes him stronger, how would we know if his opponent doesn't push him to his limit? I'm reminded of a saying I once read; "if you were standing next to Albert Einstein and a lightning bolt struck him, causing him to be a million times smarter, how would you know?" If someone is already above you, elevating them even more doesn't make much difference from where you're standing.

I think I can end your debate with "I doubt it matters". Xykon is an enemy who is way above the league of the people who fight him, so what difference would two levels make?
As you stated with the Einstein-example: Probably none. So the conclusion "it would not matter if Xykon gained another level or three" is as legit as the conclusion "he does not have to gain any more levels as it would make no difference when seen 'from below'".

No matter from what side - or what point of view regarding the possible conclusions - you view the issue, the result, even if reached by different lines of thought, stays the same: It does not matter.

It really seems to me it makes no difference at all as long as Xykon's levelling (if it happens/d in the first place) does not move him into entire new categories (he goes from the mid-20s to the mid-30s, which I strongly doubt). And if Xykon gained "a lot more power than he already has" - I think that would not happen "silently" but would be accompanied by "plot".

Olorin93
2009-07-07, 02:22 PM
... Redcloak and others are likely too low leveled to get any XP from epic leveled threats.

I'm not familiar with any rule that would make it work that way (not saying there isn't one, just that I haven't seen it). If I were DMing this, I would definitely split the XP with anyone who helped in any non-trivial way in defeating the encounter (such as by throwing a Mind Fog...). Given spliced-V's CR, Tsukiko should have just received a boatload of XP, but Redcloak retreated before the battle was done, so he misses out (at least the way I do it).

Optimystik
2009-07-07, 02:44 PM
And if Xykon gained "a lot more power than he already has" - I think that would not happen "silently" but would be accompanied by "plot".

Your last statement echoes my argument. For Xykon to gain more power would likely be accompanied by plot. But what reason would the plot have for making him more powerful? He's strong enough as-is.

Timberboar
2009-07-07, 03:48 PM
Your last statement echoes my argument. For Xykon to gain more power would likely be accompanied by plot. But what reason would the plot have for making him more powerful? He's strong enough as-is.

But remember -- Xykon needs to be strong enough to take on the Order at the end of their own power bloat, not as they stand now. By making him stronger, the Giant gives the Order room to grow while still retaining a suitably climactic final showdown.

That said, seven weeks isn't much time.

Random832
2009-07-07, 03:57 PM
But remember -- Xykon needs to be strong enough to take on the Order at the end of their own power bloat, not as they stand now. By making him stronger, the Giant gives the Order room to grow while still retaining a suitably climactic final showdown.

Xykon is high enough above the order now that they can gain half a dozen levels and still not earn any XP by RAW from defeating him

Corwin Weber
2009-07-07, 08:25 PM
The whole xp cost for making magic items is kinda crazy in the first place.

You're using magical skill.... why does this cost xp instead of earn xp? How does that make any sense? Does a blacksmith get less experienced the more stuff he makes? Does he get dumber by making a better axe?

Optimystik
2009-07-07, 08:37 PM
The whole xp cost for making magic items is kinda crazy in the first place.

You're using magical skill.... why does this cost xp instead of earn xp? How does that make any sense? Does a blacksmith get less experienced the more stuff he makes? Does he get dumber by making a better axe?

A master craftsman puts a little bit of himself into each of his creations. It's the same principle.

Gamewise, the XP cost is a balancing tool. Let's take a ring of wizardry. If it didn't cost XP, every wizard would make one as soon as they hit a certain level, and grab that extra spell slot. Clerics and Wizards would brew potions, scribe scrolls and create wands all day long. You would never need to prepare any spells. Bedlam!

Corwin Weber
2009-07-07, 08:40 PM
A master craftsman puts a little bit of himself into each of his creations. It's the same principle.

Gamewise, the XP cost is a balancing tool. Let's take a ring of wizardry. If it didn't cost XP, every wizard would make one as soon as they hit a certain level, and grab that extra spell slot. Clerics and Wizards would brew potions, scribe scrolls and create wands all day long. You would never need to prepare any spells. Bedlam!

And I'm actually ok with that. People that can literally tell the laws of physics to sit down and shut up aren't supposed to be bound by entirely arbitrary limits, especially when those limits are horrifically unrealistic.

[TS] Shadow
2009-07-07, 09:08 PM
I don't know where I heard this, but don't you get XP at a slower rate when you're a lich?

LightningNinja
2009-07-07, 09:14 PM
...but Redcloak retreated before the battle was done, so he misses out (at least the way I do it).

The traps that Redcloak designed caused V to lose her surprise round. He then cast True Seeing on a hunch and correctly identified Spliced V's major weakness (using all her will to hold onto her power). Next, he gave Xykon the idea that -- despite the sorcerer's reticence at following a lackey's advice -- yielded the K.O. His planning, knowledge, and application of divination were a contribution of first order towards V's defeat. The escape notwithstanding, Redcloak proved far from useless and would reasonably be awarded his share of the experience.

This brings to mind an incident in our campaign where a high-level revenant assassin fought our party, and was barely defeated when the ninja helped aim the blinded priestess's holy arrows. Even the characters killed by death attacks in the first few rounds got shares of XP, because their sacrifice gave the rest of the party enough time to take him down. If they hadn't been playing, it would have been TPK.

Origomar
2009-07-07, 09:25 PM
Lirian?Durokon? Soon + Azure city?

he actually lost to soon. which leaves the question, does that make soon the strongest member of that party?

Corwin Weber
2009-07-07, 09:53 PM
he actually lost to soon. which leaves the question, does that make soon the strongest member of that party?

Soon was well prepared and honestly had some advantages against this particular enemy. That having been said, most casters are at a disadvantage against a properly prepared (and defended) combat type. Remember, Xykon spent most of the fight wasting his spell slots with fire spells that only had any effect at all on Soon or the Martyrs about half the time.

Hmmmmm......

Soon and the Martyrs. Is it just me or is that a band name waiting to happen? :)

Optimystik
2009-07-07, 10:02 PM
And I'm actually ok with that. People that can literally tell the laws of physics to sit down and shut up aren't supposed to be bound by entirely arbitrary limits, especially when those limits are horrifically unrealistic.

Then I suggest you play Exalted. :smalltongue:

Corwin Weber
2009-07-07, 10:12 PM
Then I suggest you play Exalted. :smalltongue:

:|

That's my blank, uncomprehending look.

Optimystik
2009-07-07, 11:26 PM
:|

That's my blank, uncomprehending look.

In short, it's the kind of game you end up with without those "arbitrary limits" you mentioned.

In long... yeah. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Exalted)

Corwin Weber
2009-07-08, 12:15 AM
In short, it's the kind of game you end up with without those "arbitrary limits" you mentioned.

In long... yeah. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Exalted)

Looks interesting.... pity it's from White Wolf.

grautry
2009-07-08, 12:51 AM
Shadow;6451676']I don't know where I heard this, but don't you get XP at a slower rate when you're a lich?

Sort of.

How much XP you gain is determined by so-called Effective Character Level which in most cases equals to Class Levels(for example Sorcerer 20)+Level Adjustments(you get Level Adjustment 4 for becoming a Lich).

So Xykon gets XP as if he were a 24-th level character, which is slower compared to Sorcerer 20 but the exact same rate as a Sorcerer 24.

Ancalagon
2009-07-08, 03:35 AM
Your last statement echoes my argument. For Xykon to gain more power would likely be accompanied by plot. But what reason would the plot have for making him more powerful? He's strong enough as-is.

I do not know? Maybe Rich has an "awesome idea" why Xykon should become much more powerful than he already is? I also doubt such an increase will happen, thus I do not really want to talk about it a lot.

The central issue of my post was not that quoted line but that's not really an important debate to debate about one or three more levels Xykon might or might not have gained during the events in the comic, since those won't matter - neither from a "rule" perspective nor from a "plot" perspective.

Liwen
2009-07-08, 05:37 AM
A master craftsman puts a little bit of himself into each of his creations. It's the same principle.

Gamewise, the XP cost is a balancing tool. Let's take a ring of wizardry. If it didn't cost XP, every wizard would make one as soon as they hit a certain level, and grab that extra spell slot. Clerics and Wizards would brew potions, scribe scrolls and create wands all day long. You would never need to prepare any spells. Bedlam!

First about your saying in the first paragraph... A crastsman puts time and dedication into his creations, but as he, for example, built more and more axes, he should become more and more effective at creating these axes and they should also increase in quality as he innovates new ways to better built them. This is reflected in D&D has a gain of skill ranks in the craft (Axes) skill. And these skills ranks can only be gained by leveling. You craftsman has a business running of makinf axes and selling them to gain the gold he needs to live and raise a family perhaps, so he doesn't exactly has the time to go on and kill creatures in the woods to gain the xp he needs to make the axes. He earn his xp through axe fabrication.

Now this is for a NPC craftsman, but the players don't get to be craftsmen, they are incarnating adventurers and are playing a game of adventures. This is why I my games, xp is gained by adventuring : Meaning you have to face dangers, accomplish exploits, discover and explore ancients ruins full of trap, etc.

This mean you can't get xp by training either, since training, for example, at shoot arrows on a passive target doesn't represent any danger to you (well the string could always snap and hit you eye or something, but let's no get that into account).

Also in my games, given that it's extremely heartbreaking for the players to lose xp my making something. It delays the coming of new levels of power far too much and restrain them in the use of the extremely clever and intrepid use of crafting specialized items, ammunition and tools to further their goals. This is why crafting cost only money and time (not even money if you manage to procure the tools and materials yourself some other way).

WotC might seen this as a source of disbalance in their game, but so far it has actually worked quite well. I'm compensating by not allowing them an infinite amount of time in preparation. Example : in two days, an army of ten of thousands will hit this town an it's castle. You have that much time to prepare the defenses (Tip : use explody things and fire traps)

Back on the main topic, I'll put my two copper piece in the 'He his the main villain, and as such, it is not required to be explained or shown how he managed to attain the level of power he has (And in this case, we have been shown at least a partial review of his ascension to power covering the major events in the very quite well written SoD), we only simply need to accept it.

spargel
2009-07-08, 06:13 AM
And I'm actually ok with that. People that can literally tell the laws of physics to sit down and shut up aren't supposed to be bound by entirely arbitrary limits, especially when those limits are horrifically unrealistic.

The entire XP system itself isn't really realistic in the first place.

SadisticFishing
2009-07-08, 07:56 AM
All permanent magic costs a part of you. It makes sense, how else would you MAKE permanent magic?

Even something like Everburning Torch costs XP.

Ancalagon
2009-07-08, 08:04 AM
I still think that "experience" cost to balance something is a very, very bad idea.

On the other hand: I do understand it is a very nice mechanic to keep things balanced and to keep players from becoming too powerful.

My solution here: I simply refuse to play with players for whom such a balance-mechanism is necessary, then it's possible to get rid of that restriction. But I very well understand why the publisher put it there in the first place, even when I think it's a crude and even ugly way to "force" the balance on people.
It's the same with level-loss on resurrections: If you have to "force" some fear about death into your players via rules and lost xp, something is, this is just my personal point of view on what roleplaying should and should not be, wrong with the players.

SadisticFishing
2009-07-08, 08:09 AM
I totally agree with previous poster.

But that's irrelevant, as the comic uses D&D rules, until shown otherwise.

archon_huskie
2009-07-08, 10:50 AM
THe XP system maybe unrealistic, but then so is being able to make a stick shoot fireballs.

Ancalagon
2009-07-08, 11:04 AM
THe XP system maybe unrealistic, but then so is being able to make a stick shoot fireballs.

I might want to reply with a short: not relevant. ;)

A bit longer: We all agreed we want to "stick shoot fireballs". How to be able to do that is a question of the mechanics of any game, mechanics we can argue about, and mechanics, even when they are "bad" or "crude" have a "reason" to be as they are.
Apart from that: I think that xp are a very good thing to achieve what they should achieve - just losing them again, for whatever reason!, is, in my opinion, a very bad and crude idea.
It could work if you called them "power points" instead, but that's not what "experience points" are in my interpretation.

FlawedParadigm
2009-07-08, 11:08 AM
THe XP system maybe unrealistic, but then so is being able to make a stick shoot fireballs.

So...never seen an acetylene torch, then? Hairspray optional.

Optimystik
2009-07-08, 11:15 AM
First about your saying in the first paragraph... A crastsman puts time and dedication into his creations, but as he, for example, built more and more axes, he should become more and more effective at creating these axes and they should also increase in quality as he innovates new ways to better built them. This is reflected in D&D has a gain of skill ranks in the craft (Axes) skill. And these skills ranks can only be gained by leveling. You craftsman has a business running of makinf axes and selling them to gain the gold he needs to live and raise a family perhaps, so he doesn't exactly has the time to go on and kill creatures in the woods to gain the xp he needs to make the axes. He earn his xp through axe fabrication.

This is true for mundane items, but we're talking about magical items. For a craftsman to be able to bind magical properties to a mundane object without penalty would destabilize any game world. All game worlds have a cost system in place to offset this, D&D's merely uses XP because that is the most precious resource to the players.

But it makes sense from a flavor perspective, too. A crafter's personal energy is a resource when creating with magic items, just as a caster's personal energy is a resource when casting magic spells. But making something permanent with magic requires a more concrete investment than just spell slots, as any caster of True Creation and Permanency can tell you. Binding magic to something indefinitely should be much harder than just using it, and so it is.

Olorin93
2009-07-08, 01:11 PM
...The escape notwithstanding, Redcloak proved far from useless and would reasonably be awarded his share of the experience.

OK, yeah, I'll buy that. :-)

elonin
2009-07-08, 03:47 PM
Please forgive me for only having read through some of the first page before giving up. Is there a reason why an epic spell that involves killing and raising the same character over and over again wouldn't create a epic level experience generating machine? Of course life would suck for the recipient. Imagine getting to epic level only to power a experience generator for some higher level creature.

The Pink Ninja
2009-07-09, 10:22 AM
You get XP whenever the GM thinks it is appropriate.

So, for example, even though Xykon wouldn't get XP for killing any of the weaklings when he conquered Azure City because they were too low a level, he would get XP for the event for conquering a whole city and killing masses of people, plus surviving an encounter with Soon.

Optimystik
2009-07-09, 10:42 AM
Please forgive me for only having read through some of the first page before giving up. Is there a reason why an epic spell that involves killing and raising the same character over and over again wouldn't create a epic level experience generating machine? Of course life would suck for the recipient. Imagine getting to epic level only to power a experience generator for some higher level creature.

If you could kill someone that easily, they wouldn't be a challenge to you. No XP.

SinsI
2009-07-09, 10:46 AM
Please forgive me for only having read through some of the first page before giving up. Is there a reason why an epic spell that involves killing and raising the same character over and over again wouldn't create a epic level experience generating machine? Of course life would suck for the recipient. Imagine getting to epic level only to power a experience generator for some higher level creature.
You need the victim's agreement to come back to life.