The Joker v.s The Doctor

[ArlEammon]

The Joker, discovering the Doctor and his TARDIS, has been waiting for the Doctor for quite a while so he can get to know him better, The Master has even let him in on some of the things the Joker would like to know about the Doctor. For a few years now, the Doctor has been in the DC universe every once in a while through a fluke in the TARDIS. *The Master's doing* It turns out that somehow, the Time Lords exist in the DC universe, and through accessing Time Lord technology, some people have sabotaged the Doctor's TARDIS.

The Doctor has to survive, the murder attempts of the Joker long enough to make repairs to the TARDIS and make it to his home planet. He can't get the materials he needs unless he takes it from The Joker himself. The Joker has a massive complex he has set up, based on his personality and sadistic streak, in a large abandoned military base in Siberia.

[kamikasei]

This is arbitrary enough that I feel comfortable saying simply "the Doctor wins via PLOT" and leaving it at that. The Joker has a huge advantage in preparedness and resources which the Doctor can counter only with his wits and resourcefulness. Since that's basically the Doctor's standard MO...

[Starscream]

This is going to sound like a massive cop-out, but Neither.

Warning: Long and Nerdy

The Doctor is one of the few characters I know of who rivals Batman for sheer intelligence and planning. The Joker is one of the few who can rival the Daleks for sheer malevolence and insanity.

Of course, Joker can't hope to match a Time Lord on a technological level like many of the Doctor's enemies. But the Doctor has had plenty of difficulty over the years dealing with enemies without such advantages. Even humans with technology vastly inferior to our own current level (such as the Aztecs and cavemen) have given him trouble, due to his lack of weaponry and hesitation to resort to violence.

And the Joker has dealt with people vastly out of his "league" before. He's faced Superman in the past, and while he didn't win he didn't lose any more definitively than in his usual encounters with Batman. He's simply creative enough to find a solution.

But the real thing that makes the Joker terrifying isn't what he does, but what he temps other people into doing. He can't really hope to beat Batman in a physical altercation, but he can cause enough bloodshed that Batman will be tempted to kill him to make sure it never happens again. Joker "wins" if Batman ever succumbs to that urge. He's had the chance to kill or unmask Batman on various occaisions, but never done so because that isn't what he considers victory.

Seeing as the Doctor finds violence abhorrent, the Joker's obvious goal will be to see if he can get the Time Lord to resort to murder to stop the madness. In the past the Doctor has done so (even wiped out entire species), but only when there was absolutely no other choice.

So I imagine he will find himself in the same situation as Batman. He'll eventually defeat the Joker, but not before lives are lost, and he will face the choice of killing him or sending him back to Arkham. And although he knows Joker will inevitably escape and probably cause more mayhem, he will not execute him.

That's the decision Batman always makes, and he's a far more cynical person (and knows the Joker much better). The Doctor is more optimistic and will hold out hope that Joker can be contained or even redeemed.

He won't have "won" because he wasn't able to save everybody, and knows that the Joker is still a threat. Joker won't have won because he wasn't able to force the Doctor to cross the line and kill him. And with any luck (for both of them), they won't encounter each other again. Or we'll see just how serious the Doctor is about his "No second chances" claim.

Or else they'll just have a "Guess my real name" contest and the winner gets Harley Quinn. She'd make an interesting companion.

[MissK]

An important question to ask here is "which Doctor"? Number nine would probably kill the Joker, especially if he threatened Rose. Nine was such a bada**; as much as I love number ten, I was sorry to see him go.

[Kaelaroth]

The Doctor.
The Doctor wins.

[Trizap]

hmph..........that is hard..........but I'd have to say Doctor, as he is just as intelligent as the Batman if not more so, and he has killed before, unlike the Batman, unlike Batman if Joker tempted the Doctor into trying to kill him, it backfire and actually WOULD kill him since The Doctor is a time traveler- unlike Batman he doesn't have a responsibility to Gotham, as he will just warp away in the TARDIS to some other time and place and wouldn't care really if the Joker was dead- The Doctor has willingly killed omnicidal maniacs who wanted to destroy EVERYTHING many times over, he would have no compunctions against killing a crazy genius guy who merely wants to cause anarchy and chaos for kicks and giggles heck he would probably do a speech along the lines of
"so that is your game is it? playing with peoples lives, causing explosions, fires, heists, robberies, manipulating and terrifying everyone and playing with this entire city like a child with his new toy, seeing how many ways it could be fun, how many ways he could smash it until it breaks, I have no sympathy, your not some insane genius, you are just a little child too immature and petulant to realize what a terrible monster he really is, to caught in his game to see how sick and twisted he really is and kind of suffering and pain he is causing. goodbye"
after that Batman would probably argue with him ending with the Doctor blowing him off and warping away in the TARDIS without a second thought.

[Mx.Silver]

hmph..........that is hard..........but I'd have to say Doctor, as he is just as intelligent as the Batman if not more so, and he has killed before, unlike the Batman, unlike Batman if Joker tempted the Doctor into trying to kill him, it backfire and actually WOULD kill him since The Doctor is a time traveler- unlike Batman he doesn't have a responsibility to Gotham, as he will just warp away in the TARDIS to some other time and place and wouldn't care really if the Joker was dead- The Doctor has willingly killed omnicidal maniacs who wanted to destroy EVERYTHING many times over, he would have no compunctions against killing a crazy genius guy who merely wants to cause anarchy and chaos for kicks and giggles heck he would probably do a speech along the lines of
"so that is your game is it? playing with peoples lives, causing explosions, fires, heists, robberies, manipulating and terrifying everyone and playing with this entire city like a child with his new toy, seeing how many ways it could be fun, how many ways he could smash it until it breaks, I have no sympathy, your not some insane genius, you are just a little child too immature and petulant to realize what a terrible monster he really is, to caught in his game to see how sick and twisted he really is and kind of suffering and pain he is causing. goodbye"
after that Batman would probably argue with him ending with the Doctor blowing him off and warping away in the TARDIS without a second thought.
Actually, the Doctor has done (arguably) worse to individuals than just killing them. Just look at what happened to the Family of Blood. The Joker might be willing to die as long as he 'won' but being trapped utterly helpless for an eternity? That's another matter.

[Demons_eye]

The joker gets the last laugh after he gets the doctor to kill him and as he dies slowly he reveals that he is also a time lord and the doctor killed the last one besides himself.

[Haven]

Yeah, the Joker loses in the worst way possible.

So the Doctor survives all Joker's death traps (even though, it's a given, most of the people Joker sticks in there with him dies), then dismantles them and uses the parts to repair the TARDIS and make all sorts of useful things.

Then when he confronts the Joker face-to-face, the Doctor gives him a "Last Second Chance" and the Joker just keeps goading him to kill him, and instead the Doctor uses his psychic abilities to give him the push from "dangerously insane" to "harmlessly permanent gibbering insane" (and don't say "If he tries to manipulate the Joker's mind he'll go crazy", because 1) the Doctor has dealt with so much worse and 2) Martian Manhunter has done so himself, and though he had difficulty holding on it didn't unleash Fernus or anything).

Or he uses the TARDIS to make him immortal and drop him into a star for all eternity. Or throw him in the Void. Or trap him in an orb and lock him in one of the TARDIS's attics. Or, failing all this, it's possible the Joker's look is sufficiently inhuman that the Doctor could just kill him with a grenade/satsuma/etc (with the pre-mortem one liner "You think getting me to kill is something special? Oh, how I wish you were right").

[Starscream]

"You think getting me to kill is something special? Oh, how I wish you were right".

Nice one.

Yeah, I guess it does kind of depend on which Doctor we're talking about. Depends on which version of the Joker as well. I just assumed we were talking about Ten and the modern day Comics incarnation.

Lessee...

Doctors that would kill the Joker: One, Six, Nine
Doctors that would spare the Joker: Two, Three, Four, Five, Eight
Doctors that would do something hilarious and yet worse then death: Seven, Ten

God I'm gonna miss Tennant.

[Teron]

Depending on how well the Joker has the Doctor figured out, I don't think murder is what he'd try to get him to do. It just wouldn't destroy the Doctor the way it would Batman, at least as an isolated incident. My knowledge of Doctor Who is spotty at best, but how about getting him to sacrifice innocents to save Rose (probably a fake, but the Doctor doesn't need to know that until it's too late)? That seems like the sort of thing he might do with a little push that would mess him up forever.


Or else they'll just have a "Guess my real name" contest and the winner gets Harley Quinn. She'd make an interesting companion.
Interesting indeed. I would love to see that.

[HamHam]

My knowledge of Doctor Who is spotty at best, but how about getting him to sacrifice innocents to save Rose (probably a fake, but the Doctor doesn't need to know that until it's too late)? That seems like the sort of thing he might do with a little push that would mess him up forever.

He pretty much already does that anyway though.

[Viv]

The thing is, the Doctor has already been messed up "forever."

That's the whole point of Eccleston's rendition of the Doctor, and Tennant's too.

The ninth Doctor (Eccleston's) has horrible psychological scars from the things he had to do in the Time War, and he's clearly horribly screwed up as a result. Tennant's character has reconciled and resolved these problems, and it's why he's distinctly more violent than past Doctors.

The tenth Doctor -- and likely subsequent incarnations -- would not be screwed up by having to sacrifice innocents for the greater good, nor will he sacrifice innocents only on Rose's behalf. He'll be righteously angry, and he will deposit all the blame and wrath where it belongs -- directly on the Joker's shoulders.

[Renegade Paladin]

That, and I doubt Rose would have any qualms about offing the Joker herself given the opportunity. :smalltongue:

[Black Orc 2k8]

Ahhh! the joker and the doctor, alike in so many ways, and yet different is so many others. Lets see!

After using his knowledge to get past the jokers traps, he would find himself in one that only the joker could come up with. It would probably be a cliche one like "decide witch on of these complete strangers shoud die" or "surender or i'll shoot this kitten". But eventualy the doctor would find a way of completly avading this, and would come face to face with the joker. After the joker taunting him, and getting the doctor under his capture, the doctor would reveal some ace in the hole witch would also have a symbolic meaning. With the odds on his side, the doctor would give the jocker a second chance. The joker would then put his secondry plan into action, and leav the doctor to fight through it. After that the doctor would probably not go after the joker. He would collect the parts he needs, and would leav this world to sort out the joker, so as to not meddle in a different timeline.

[Revlid]

So, it's basically The Doctor vs The Master (Simm), only the latter lacks his usual psychic abilities, alien technology, scientific genius and intimate knowledge of his opponent?

The Doctor.

[MissK]

So, it's basically The Doctor vs The Master (Simm), only the latter lacks his usual psychic abilities, alien technology, scientific genius and intimate knowledge of his opponent?

The Doctor.

Yeah...somehow I think a man whose titles include "The Oncoming Storm" and "Destroyer of Worlds" wouldn't be at all impressed with a lunatic in a clown suit. He HAS destroyed a universe-spanning empire of genocidal maniacs, after all. Multiple times.

[Selrahc]

Yeah...somehow I think a man whose titles include "The Oncoming Storm" and "Destroyer of Worlds" wouldn't be at all impressed with a lunatic in a clown suit. He HAS destroyed a universe-spanning empire of genocidal maniacs, after all. Multiple times.

Well.. so has Batman and the Joker is a perfectly fine nemesis for him.

[Randel]

I think if the Joker was going against The Doctor, then he would try to find some way to get ahold of the Doctors TARDIS. Time travel would be exactly the sort of thing Joker would love to abuse.

Think about that one Emperor Joker storyline where joker stole Mxplicks omnipotence powers and remade the universe in his image.

Joker would probably hijack the TARDIS and The Doctor would be forced to use that wristband thing that Jack Harkness had in that one episode where the Master stole the TARDIS. Doctor (and probably Batman) follows Joker through history to prevent him from turning Earth history into a big Joke.

There's no doubt in my mind that the Doctor would win, but Joker might do something nasty like go back in time and kill Bruce Waynes parents... and let Batman and The Doctor know about it.

The Doctors choice would be to then to undo that event and change history (potentially erasing Batman from existance) or to let it go its course and let Batman know that he could have stopped that from happening but didn't.

So, the Joker would manipulate the Doctor and Batman into a situation where they would have to either sacrifice the lives of Thomas and Matha Wayne or to alter the tru course of history. Either way, the Joker wins.


But then... since the Doctor is just so damm badass and has the experience of a thousand lifetimes... he could manipulate events so that Bruces Parents are alive after the event. Like he slips them a paralysing drug that keeps them stable even after they are shot and then he sends them to the present while some other bodies are buried in their place. Or he could 'save' their minds like what happened in that big Library episode (forrest of the dead, I think).

Cue incredible scene where batman and the Doctor think that the only possible way to save the universe is to let the Waynes die at Jokers hands, and then Doctor says "This time... no... not this time." and then saves the Waynes before either erasing Jokers memory of the event or doing one of the various 'fates worse then death' punishments.

[Krrth]

I think if the Joker was going against The Doctor, then he would try to find some way to get ahold of the Doctors TARDIS. Time travel would be exactly the sort of thing Joker would love to abuse.

Think about that one Emperor Joker storyline where joker stole Mxplicks omnipotence powers and remade the universe in his image.

Joker would probably hijack the TARDIS and The Doctor would be forced to use that wristband thing that Jack Harkness had in that one episode where the Master stole the TARDIS. Doctor (and probably Batman) follows Joker through history to prevent him from turning Earth history into a big Joke.

There's no doubt in my mind that the Doctor would win, but Joker might do something nasty like go back in time and kill Bruce Waynes parents... and let Batman and The Doctor know about it.

The Doctors choice would be to then to undo that event and change history (potentially erasing Batman from existance) or to let it go its course and let Batman know that he could have stopped that from happening but didn't.

So, the Joker would manipulate the Doctor and Batman into a situation where they would have to either sacrifice the lives of Thomas and Matha Wayne or to alter the tru course of history. Either way, the Joker wins.


But then... since the Doctor is just so damm badass and has the experience of a thousand lifetimes... he could manipulate events so that Bruces Parents are alive after the event. Like he slips them a paralysing drug that keeps them stable even after they are shot and then he sends them to the present while some other bodies are buried in their place. Or he could 'save' their minds like what happened in that big Library episode (forrest of the dead, I think).

Cue incredible scene where batman and the Doctor think that the only possible way to save the universe is to let the Waynes die at Jokers hands, and then Doctor says "This time... no... not this time." and then saves the Waynes before either erasing Jokers memory of the event or doing one of the various 'fates worse then death' punishments.

Except....the Joker can't use the TARDIS. Seriously, the thing is alive. As I recall, there have been only a few people who were able to use it other than the doctor, and at least one (the master) was a time lord as well.

Also, the TARDIS is notoriously inaccurate. It's supposed to be controlled by multiple time lords who all know what they are doing.

[ArlEammon]

Except....the Joker can't use the TARDIS. Seriously, the thing is alive. As I recall, there have been only a few people who were able to use it other than the doctor, and at least one (the master) was a time lord as well.

Also, the TARDIS is notoriously inaccurate. It's supposed to be controlled by multiple time lords who all know what they are doing.

It turns out that somehow, the Time Lords exist in the DC universe, and through accessing Time Lord technology, some people have sabotaged the Doctor's TARDIS.

[Krrth]

It turns out that somehow, the Time Lords exist in the DC universe, and through accessing Time Lord technology, some people have sabotaged the Doctor's TARDIS.

Sabotaged, yes. Used, no. See, AFAIK, Time Lord technology can't be used by anyone that doesn't perceive all of time and space.

While some members of the DC universe fall into that category, the Joker does not.

[Meshakhad]

The Doctor. He's defeated far worse enemies than the Joker, and is willing to kill if it comes down to it. The Joker may not realize this until it is too late.

Also, I don't know of any companions that WOULD have a problem killing the Joker. I don't know the old series, but Rose would off him in a heartbeat.

[Haarkla]

The Joker, discovering the Doctor and his TARDIS, has been waiting for the Doctor for quite a while so he can get to know him better, The Master has even let him in on some of the things the Joker would like to know about the Doctor. For a few years now, the Doctor has been in the DC universe every once in a while through a fluke in the TARDIS. *The Master's doing* It turns out that somehow, the Time Lords exist in the DC universe, and through accessing Time Lord technology, some people have sabotaged the Doctor's TARDIS.

The Doctor has to survive, the murder attempts of the Joker long enough to make repairs to the TARDIS and make it to his home planet. He can't get the materials he needs unless he takes it from The Joker himself. The Joker has a massive complex he has set up, based on his personality and sadistic streak, in a large abandoned military base in Siberia.
Good plot. Should make it competitive. But I think the Doctor is sufficiently more powerful than the Joker that he will win.

[pflare]

I think that the Doctor is far more masterful and complex as a character and a villain but I like the Joker better because he represents Chaos with a capital C. He's absolutely insane and that's why he's the superior villain (in my opinion anyway).

[chiasaur11]

I think that the Doctor is far more masterful and complex as a character and a villain but I like the Joker better because he represents Chaos with a capital C. He's absolutely insane and that's why he's the superior villain (in my opinion anyway).

Well, yeah.

The Doctor is what's known as a "Hero".

AKA, the group that isn't the villains.

[Szilard]

Deja vu. .

[Querzis]

The Joker win by definition even if the Doctor will probably easely kill him. The Joker always win since the Joker will have tortured and killed a few dozens innocents, probably including Rose, before the Doctor easely kill him. The Joker is chaos, he win simply by virtue of having everchanging goals and having accomplished most of them before he is beaten or killed. Batman always beat the Joker but he sure as hell never won, not even close. When the Joker killed Robin, paralized Batgirl and tortured Gordon, he sure as hell had not lost just because Batman beat him in the end.

If you ask who would survive, who would beat the other, then its obviously the Doctor. But who would win? The Joker will have accomplished all he wanted to do before the Doctor kill him and will probably consider the Doctor killing him a victory as well while the Doctor wont be able to save everyone from the Joker. You can beat chaos but you cant win against chaos.

Beside, when you kill the Joker, hes back even faster then if you send him at Arkham. There is lots of hint in the comics that the Joker is not a man but really an avatar of chaos and that he has thousands of backstories because they are all true. For example, he once got shot in the back of the head by a policeman. Later we see a man laughing like a maniac in a dark alley and then, a few seconds later, the Joker come out of that alley with the man clothes on him.beating the Joker is easy but dont think for a single second that means you'll have won against him.

[lisiecki]

The Doctor. He's defeated far worse enemies than the Joker, and is willing to kill if it comes down to it. The Joker may not realize this until it is too late.

Also, I don't know of any companions that WOULD have a problem killing the Joker. I don't know the old series, but Rose would off him in a heartbeat.

Well there is always Ace. In this situation I'm fairly sure that her FIRST reaction would be to kill the Joker.

"There's a homicidal clown taking hostages? Well guess its time to toss Nitro-9 at him, or beat him to death with a baseball bat"

Ah Ace, my most favrotist time lady...

[chiasaur11]

The Joker win by definition even if the Doctor will probably easely kill him. The Joker always win since the Joker will have tortured and killed a few dozens innocents, probably including Rose, before the Doctor easely kill him. The Joker is chaos, he win simply by virtue of having everchanging goals and having accomplished most of them before he is beaten or killed. Batman always beat the Joker but he sure as hell never won, not even close. When the Joker killed Robin, paralized Batgirl and tortured Gordon, he sure as hell had not lost just because Batman beat him in the end.


That's a rather silly win condition.

The Joker doesn't win if he just kills some people at random. Even he's not so stupid as to believe any random murder makes him the winner. Ever read "Joker's Five Way Revenge"?

Killed four guys and still didn't come out on top. And the Doctor is very used to people getting horribly killed on his watch, to the point where nobody dying is a party worthy event.

[Llama231]

Hey, I did a thread like this once...
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101707

Dr. won. By a lot.

[Maerok]

This is going to sound like a massive cop-out, but Neither.

Warning: Long and Nerdy

The Doctor is one of the few characters I know of who rivals Batman for sheer intelligence and planning. The Joker is one of the few who can rival the Daleks for sheer malevolence and insanity.

Of course, Joker can't hope to match a Time Lord on a technological level like many of the Doctor's enemies. But the Doctor has had plenty of difficulty over the years dealing with enemies without such advantages. Even humans with technology vastly inferior to our own current level (such as the Aztecs and cavemen) have given him trouble, due to his lack of weaponry and hesitation to resort to violence.

And the Joker has dealt with people vastly out of his "league" before. He's faced Superman in the past, and while he didn't win he didn't lose any more definitively than in his usual encounters with Batman. He's simply creative enough to find a solution.

But the real thing that makes the Joker terrifying isn't what he does, but what he temps other people into doing. He can't really hope to beat Batman in a physical altercation, but he can cause enough bloodshed that Batman will be tempted to kill him to make sure it never happens again. Joker "wins" if Batman ever succumbs to that urge. He's had the chance to kill or unmask Batman on various occaisions, but never done so because that isn't what he considers victory.

Seeing as the Doctor finds violence abhorrent, the Joker's obvious goal will be to see if he can get the Time Lord to resort to murder to stop the madness. In the past the Doctor has done so (even wiped out entire species), but only when there was absolutely no other choice.

So I imagine he will find himself in the same situation as Batman. He'll eventually defeat the Joker, but not before lives are lost, and he will face the choice of killing him or sending him back to Arkham. And although he knows Joker will inevitably escape and probably cause more mayhem, he will not execute him.

That's the decision Batman always makes, and he's a far more cynical person (and knows the Joker much better). The Doctor is more optimistic and will hold out hope that Joker can be contained or even redeemed.

He won't have "won" because he wasn't able to save everybody, and knows that the Joker is still a threat. Joker won't have won because he wasn't able to force the Doctor to cross the line and kill him. And with any luck (for both of them), they won't encounter each other again. Or we'll see just how serious the Doctor is about his "No second chances" claim.

Or else they'll just have a "Guess my real name" contest and the winner gets Harley Quinn. She'd make an interesting companion.

That was my first reaction. Although the Doctor could probably find somewhere better than Arkham to contain him, unless the Master gets in the way.

[Erts]

While I think the Doctor would win, you guys are underestimating the Joker.
Not in the usual way. The thing is, why would Joker even try to go against the Doctor? He's fine where he is now, and he rarely expresses interests out of the Batman Family or Gotham. (Emperor Joker is an exception.)

More interesting of a discussion, do you guys think that the entire Batman rogue gallery could beat the Doctor?

[Szilard]

Hey, I did a thread like this once...
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101707

Dr. won. By a lot.

That's why I said Deja Vu earlier in the thread.:smalltongue: