Kitsune, my new race

[ninja_kitsune]

Ok, so I made a new oriental race, and I'd just like other peoples opinions on my Kitsune. A Kitsune is a Foxman, born and raised very wise and able bodied.

Kitsune

Size: medium

+2 to wis and dex scores

-2 to str and con scores

40 base land speed

+1 natural armor bonus (from the thick matted fur)

+1 bonus to all wis related skills

you're allowed to put 1 skill point more per level than you normally would be allowed for all wis related skills

favored class: Ranger

Languag: Kitsune have their own native tongue, and any race may learn how to understand it, but only races capable of many different growl tones may speak it. (I'm still working on what can and can't speak it). Lycanthropes may speak Kitsune regardless of race.

All other aspects of the Kitsune are the same statistics as humans.



What does everybody think? What can I work on? What should remain?

[Gerrtt]

Well...to start bonuses to Wisdom and Dexterity don't necessarily equal out to a 1/1 penalty to Strength and Constitution. Being able to put more ranks in wisdom skills than you should be able to is pretty absurd, not to mention that you are giving them the human stuff (4 skill points at creation, 1 skill point per level and a bonus feat) on top of all that, and a natural armor bonus and a higher base movement than most medium humanoids get....sounds pretty broken to me but I'm not an expert. Something like this would probably need a level adjustment to be fair but as someone who doesn't really know the ins and outs of figuring out how much level adjustment to give for certain things I can't be of much help. I know there is a chart or table or something in one of the books (I think either MM1 3.5, DMG 3.5, or savage species) that tells how much certain things are worth in terms of level adjustment, but I can't remember off the top of my head. Otherwhise I like the idea of a race of foxmen, I just don't think it's balanced as you have written so far. Keep plugging though, and try to track downthe information I have suggested.

[Deleran]

This race is just obviously broken, but I think it raises a point I'd like to make anyway. The more pluses and minuses you have to abilities, the more powerful the race is, even if it balances out. Because your players are going to be able to min/max way more.

Anyway, here's how I would do kitsune.

Medium
+2 dex, -2 str
+2 to listen, jump and survival
Scent ability
Low-Light Vision
+1 Caster level when casting illusion spells
Racial Weapon Proficiency: Katana (you know, since its japanese folklore)
Languages: Kitsune and Common
Favored Class: Any

I think thats fairly inline with what a foxman would look like, and I think its well balanced against the other races.

[Single Shot Zombie]

What I can picture from that kind of stat description is a whole tribe of militant foxmen, not just a bunch of Miles "Tails" Prower clones.

If you want to make it a bit fiercer, add nat armor, a higher base land speed and natural weapons (claws and bite), and make it a LA +1.

Personally, though, I think animalistic races are somewhat overdone. But it's your call.

[MisterRaziel]

Why would a kitsune automatically get "katana" (i.e the bastard sword) as a racial weapon?

That's like saying every Japanese person in the world is racially proficient with the katana - it's absurd.

Now, if it were some sort of bladed nine-tailed whip or something especially suited to the race, that might be acceptable.

Moving on, the concept is okay. I mean, I don't really like anthropomorphic races as a rule, but if you want to add it, use Delaran's edit (minus the Katana I'd say). Yours is a little funky, in my opinion.

I will say this: Mad props for not making them shape-changers.

[iNSOMN14]

Meanwhile, I thought of Kitsune would be a little more like this...

Small
-2 STR, +2 DEX
+2 racial bonus to Listen, Survival
Scent ability
Demon blood (important for my oriental campaign)
Languages: Common
Spell-like Abilities: 1/day Speak with Animals (foxes only); A kitsune with a Charisma score of at least 10 also has the following spell-like abilities: 1/day—detect magic, ghost sound, prestidigitation. Caster level 1st; save DC 10 + kitsune’s Cha modifier + spell level.

[Paladin_of_Waukeen]

What's the problem with making them shapeshifters? If anything, that's practically mandatory, since it's their main thing in folklore.

My DM did a campaign with kitsune in it once. My grasp of D20 terminology is lacking, and I'm not sure it was meant for use by player characters, but the basics of how it worked went like-

-Kitsune are a race you take levels in, the way monsters do. I thought this was the right way to go, since it lends a since of progression to their abilities and another staple of the folklore was the progression from one tail to nine.

-Kitsune can shift between human and fox forms and gain more tails as they increase in power.

-Kitsune work sort of like variant sorcerors; he had a bunch of special thematically-appropriate kitsune magic domains, and they'd gain access to more spells as they leveled up.

Handle their spell selection right, and you might not need to give this class an ECL adjustment; just give 'em a penalty to strength and con to make up for the fox form ability.

It's more work, but I liked his way better than giving them slightly different stats at level one. In the stories, Kitsune are all about their supernatural powers- they're not just non-humans who have their own societies and are tougher/stronger/etc than humans the way dwarves/orces/elves are.

[ninja_kitsune]

I guess I did a pretty bad description of them. When I said the rest of the stats match humans, I was referring to there not being any changes, not the bonus feats and all that. It was a really bad description, sorry 'bout that people.

[MisterRaziel]

Because I hate shape-changers. They're invariably overpowered (Shadowrun, anyone?) and they're so cliche they make my teeth ache.

[Everyman]

Well, you want an enlightened fox race? In my mind, foxfolk should be fast, agile, and wise, but not very strong or tough.


SIZE: MED
* +2 Dex and Wis, -2 Str and Con (Foxes are agile and cunning, but they are not as resiliant as other races)
* Base speed 40
* Scent
* Kitsune are naturally aware of their surroundings, which helps keep them one step ahead of other races. They recieve a +2 racial bonus to Sense Motive, Spot, and Listen checks.
* Light build: Kitsune are considered one size smaller than normal for all size dependant effects (such as grappling and carrying capacity)
* Favored Class: Ranger

How's that? I apologize if I lost something in translation, such as a paticular ideal you had.

[Sotha_Cid]

Shadowrun, you say? Oh-ho-ho. Somebody's a fan of high-tech/low-life, it seems.

I've dabbled a little bit, and I can't say that Shapeshifters were particularly, y'know. ZOMG broken, compared to your average Awakened character. When you can have a Physad with a starting dice pool of 18 in a weapon easily, it's kind of hard to take the shapeshifting and regen seriously.

The regen helps, but not nearly as much as the NPC regen. Not to mention the fact that you have to buy two sets of stats, or at least two sets of physical stats. Then, there's the inability to get cyberware. Unsure about the bioware. You can't regen stun damage or physical damage caused by spellcasting easily, not that you're about to be an awakened character as a shapeshifter all that easily, unless the karma flows like milk and honey in, er, the land of milk and honey. I'm pretty sure you're dual natured which sucks the big one.

Plus, well. There's the whole aspect of being an animal that can turn into a human and not the other way around. That part gets ignored quite a bit, it does.

Thread hijacking aside, I don't see why you don't just steal the shapeshifting race from that one sourcebook. The Hengeyoki or whatever. They've got a +1 LA, more forms, and, well. Don't suck nearly so much.

[ninja_kitsune]

Well, you want an enlightened fox race? In my mind, foxfolk should be fast, agile, and wise, but not very strong or tough.


SIZE: MED
* +2 Dex and Wis, -2 Str and Con (Foxes are agile and cunning, but they are not as resiliant as other races)
* Base speed 40
* Scent
* Kitsune are naturally aware of their surroundings, which helps keep them one step ahead of other races. They recieve a +2 racial bonus to Sense Motive, Spot, and Listen checks.
* Light build: Kitsune are considered one size smaller than normal for all size dependant effects (such as grappling and carrying capacity)
* Favored Class: Ranger

How's that? I apologize if I lost something in translation, such as a paticular ideal you had.

No, thats exactly what I wanted them to be, except the small size, but that works well. Yuppers, thats pretty much what I already had written down... Ok everybody, for the desrciption of my Kitsune, look at Tarkahn's description, its the same, but written out better.

[Deleran]

Yeah, the Katana thing probably wasn't correct. It probably came from having played so much Kamigawa block Magic, where the kitsune are all either priests or crazy good samurai.

[Vaynor]

If you want to make it a bit fiercer, add nat armor, a higher base land speed and natural weapons (claws and bite), and make it a LA +1.

Yeah, that seems like a good idea. The Natural Armor bonus should be about +2, have a 50 ft. speed, give 'em 1d4 damage for claw and bite and then add the LA +1.

[Everyman]

Aha! I thought I recognized that concept! Twas a nice set, Kamigawa.

[Deleran]

Yeah, that seems like a good idea. The Natural Armor bonus should be about +2, have a 50 ft. speed, give 'em 1d4 damage for claw and bite and then add the LA +1.

I don't think he meant them to be feral.

[ninja_kitsune]

Certainly not! They are an intelligent, upstanding race! Not some random beasts! The idea of the Kitsune being "Feral" (I'm doing little finger quotes) is positively absurd!

[luca4fun2006]

But its furry! FURRY!

just kidding

[Millikin_Erreene]

I'd make them the following

Level Adjustment: +1

Favored Class: Rogue

Classifies as an Outsider for purposes of spell effects, supernatural/extraordinary abilities, and special purpose items

Size: Medium

Attribute Modifications: +2 Dex +2 Wis
-2 Con -2 Str

Base Movement Speed: 30 ft / 40 ft in fox form only

Alter Self usable as a move equivalent action once per character level.
Kitsune also shapeshift into a fox form or human/fox hybrid form. It counts as a move equivalent action but no other restrictions on the number of times it can be used. Unlike their Alter Self ability, clothing and equipment do not automatically shift to accomodate the hybrid/fox form. In hybrid or wolf form, they may attack with a bite and two claws and do not provoke the standard attacks of opportunity for attacking unarmed. Bite does 1d4 Claws do 1d3. Attacks made with hand held weapons are not possible in fox form and suffer a -2 attack penalty in hybrid form

+2 circumstance bonus to any checks involving trickery, seduction, deception, illusions, or the detection thereof.
When employing illusion or mind affecting magic, unwilling targets suffer a -2 penalty to save, if applicable.
Bluff, Diplomacy, and Sense Motive always count as class skills.


As a side note: I'd have the kitsune character periodically gain additional tails when they progress in levels. (Not automatically every level or every other level.) Additional tails would give them a +1 bonus per tail to interaction rolls with other kitsune and beings familiar with their cultural mores and idiosyncracies.

The tails would be earned by acts of great renown and could be lost for dishonorable behavior (if employing the honor sytem) or alignment shifts two steps or more in differential regardless of the reason.
Additional tails would grant the player character new abilities or powers like upgrading their Alter Self to Polymorph Self, the ability to cast Charm Person or Charm Monster once day, increasing their circumstance bonus to +3 or +4 and so on.

[ninja_kitsune]

Why would you say that their favored class is rogue? I mean, sure they are a mischivious race, but their duty to protect their homeland and the forest goes far beyond their practical jokes. Thats why I decided Ranger. I just think it makes more sense. I REALLY liike your idea of gaining more tails. I had thought of that before, but I didn't know how to do it. I like your idea with it.

[bjjonker]

I'd second the Rouge class - Kitsune tend to fill the trickster role in mythology. To add to that, maybe change the +2 INT to +2 CHR - they are more people-oriented than book-smarts in the stories.

[ninja_kitsune]

nobody here gave it a +2 INT, we all gave them +2 WIS and DEX.

[bjjonker]

nobody here gave it a +2 INT, we all gave them +2 WIS and DEX.

My mistake. +2 CHR instead of +2 WIS. Or +1 CHR, +1 WIS instead of +2 WIS, or shave some off the DX bonus (which will help in the power-gaming aspect). I guess I envision the kitsune to be very social creatures, so they would tend to have higher Charisma.

[Millikin_Erreene]

"Why would you say that their favored class is rogue? I mean, sure they are a mischivious race, but their duty to protect their homeland and the forest goes far beyond their practical jokes."

The kitsune inclination to adopt a temple, monastery, or other sacred (to them) area of land as "theirs" doesn't really match up with a ranger, druid, or paladin's similiar inclinations to protect an unspoiled tract of forest, grove, or village in a larger kingdom. Said practice tends to be much broader in scope with the ranger, druid, or paladin and not limited to a single area.

I also view rangers as warriors with abilities in stealth and survival to augment their combat prowess. Whereas a rogue is more likely to use their stealth and 'people skills' to avoid combat whenever possible. I view kitsune in the same light, yes they can be capable defenders when necessary but they almost always prefer to use tricks, charm, or magical devices rather than fight. And many of the ranger's class skills and features really don't fit my visual image of a kitsune.

[Sotha_Cid]

Kitsune Ranger? Why am I suddenly seeing Disney's Robin Hood with a sprinkling of anime all of a sudden?

And why can't I stop laughing?

[AtomicKitKat]

Hmm, I would have thought a Kitsune more suited to playing a Bard or Sorceror.