Whether bad guys can win in this story?

[ghoul-n]

I mean, good ones aren't supposed to win everytime. Elan and Haley could be happy together in afterlife etc.

[Porthos]

I mean, good ones aren't supposed to win everytime. Elan and Haley could be happy together in afterlife etc.

It looks like the Bad Guys win plenty of times in this story so far. I mean, have you taken one look at Azure City lately? :smalltongue:

But if you mean ultimately, since OotS isn't some emo whine fest (usually :smalltongue:) I highly doubt there will be a Downer Ending (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DownerEnding). That's not to say that there won't be a high cost to the eventual victory. I'm sure there will be.

But I somehow doubt the story will end with Redcloak/Xykon/IFCC victorious.

Because that would, quite frankly, suck rocks.

[fangthane]

Bad guys have won several rounds, some good guys are tarnished a bit and some bad guys have some polish. In the sense of "bad guys always losing" I'm assuming you mean in the "end," but I see no reason - especially with the quality of Rich's writing - that the bad guys can't salvage something even if they do end up in the red. Maybe Tsukiko meets a nice lich without Xykon's prejudices against the living and settles down to raise animate a family. Maybe Redcloak manages to get a little prime-material respect for his goblin kin, whether or not the Plan actually comes to fruition.

Maybe the bad guys win but don't manage to kibosh Creation, and the happy ending Elan gets is in Arcadia, from a blonde about whom Haley needn't know. :smallwink:

The point is, I'd say the answer is yes. There's certainly a chance for several of the bad guys to put one in the win column regardless of how things turn out with the Gates. I don't think it'll be a pure win on either side though.

[Kairamek]

If the Azurites settle down on that island and stay there, leaving Azure city and it's surrounding resources for a goblin/hobgoblin city...
If the surrounding countries accept the (hob)goblin city-state as a new, valid, if coup-founded nation....
If they can setup trade relations with those other kingdoms...
I'd say Redcloak is in the winning tally even if he's destoryed during the gate fights.

Per SoD his real objective is to give Goblins equal footing with all the Playable Races. An unchallenged nation with trade relations qualifies imo.

[waterpenguin43]

Bad guys have won several rounds, some good guys are tarnished a bit and some bad guys have some polish. In the sense of "bad guys always losing" I'm assuming you mean in the "end," but I see no reason - especially with the quality of Rich's writing - that the bad guys can't salvage something even if they do end up in the red. Maybe Tsukiko meets a nice lich without Xykon's prejudices against the living and settles down to raise animate a family. Maybe Redcloak manages to get a little prime-material respect for his goblin kin, whether or not the Plan actually comes to fruition.

Maybe the bad guys win but don't manage to kibosh Creation, and the happy ending Elan gets is in Arcadia, from a blonde about whom Haley needn't know. :smallwink:

The point is, I'd say the answer is yes. There's certainly a chance for several of the bad guys to put one in the win column regardless of how things turn out with the Gates. I don't think it'll be a pure win on either side though.
Elan will not give up on Haley, if he didn't give it up for Therkla, he won't for some random blonde. He'll also probably go to Arborea, Ysgard or the Beastlands because he is chaotic good.

[Morty]

There's nothing wrong with good guys winning, you see. The problem is when "good guys" effortlessly win simply because they're the protagonists, despite "villians" being both more competent and having the odds on their side. But we know that The Giant isn't going to pull something like this off, as the bad guys already scored many victories, much to many readers' dismay.

[Morquard]

Bad guys can win as many battles as they can, but in the end they will almost always loose the war.
Most some of them can hope for is "survive the war" I think.

As others have said anything else would be a big downer, I just don't see myself enjoying to see the entire Order killed and Xykon ruling the world. or the Dark One for that matter

[TMC]

Bad guys can win as many battles as they can, but in the end they will almost always loose the war.
Most some of them can hope for is "survive the war" I think.

As others have said anything else would be a big downer, I just don't see myself enjoying to see the entire Order killed and Xykon ruling the world. or the Dark One for that matter

Oh c'mon, it'd be fun! Everybody knows that evil always comes out ontop in the end anyway. :smallwink:

[Morquard]

Oh c'mon, it'd be fun! Everybody knows that evil always comes out ontop in the end anyway. :smallwink:
No, only when there's a sequel planned ;)

Letting the bad guy win works in stories where they're the main-characters (I don't want to say "hero" because.... well you know), but in OotS, the main characters are ... big surprise - the order of the stick.

[Cryssandra]

If the bad guys won in OotS what would have been the point of making the main characters the order in the first place?

[Berserk Monk]

I mean, good ones aren't supposed to win everytime. Elan and Haley could be happy together in afterlife etc.

If the badguys win, what makes you think their souls will see the afterlife?

[Snake-Aes]

Bad guys can win as many battles as they can, but in the end they will almost always loose the war.
Most some of them can hope for is "survive the war" I think.

As others have said anything else would be a big downer, I just don't see myself enjoying to see the entire Order killed and Xykon ruling the world. or the Dark One for that matter

The bad guys winning doesn't necessarily mean the good guys get screwed.

In Holy Avenger, there is a conspiracy by the god of betrayal to re-earn his position in the pantheon as one of the 20 major gods. In the process, he makes a deal with the god of war's high priest, and they end up screwing the good guys over and over.

They create a super paladin whose powers come from a non-judgmental force, so he ends up doing very evil deeds towards what he thinks to be the right way to deliver justice. He was also nigh-immortal(his character sheet had a cr 55 level 20 paladin), and the weapon powerful enough to kill him in able time was created by the gods in the Betrayer's deal.

The result?

Good guys kill the Nasty Paladin. God of War's high priest keeps that infinity plus one sword, and the god of betrayal reattains his position as a major god.

The villains win, and the heroes got their happy ending. The only screwed person in the process was the nutty paladin.And that's the best story I've ever read in it's format.

[Morquard]

I was talking specifically about the OotS bad-guys in my post.

I just don't see how Xykon/Redcloak can win, without the order getting smoked.

Yeah the Dark One might be accepted as an equal god, and the goblins get equal footing in the end, but Xykon will almost inevitably enter the "big fires below" (or get unmade by the snarl).

Of course... Xykon could declare Elan his personal bard for all eternity (making him undead). Singing the praises for the Overlord of the Multiverse, can there a happier ending for a bard?

And yes, I'm totally kidding here, for those that didn't get it

[Snake-Aes]

I was talking specifically about the OotS bad-guys in my post.

I just don't see how Xykon/Redcloak can win, without the order getting smoked.

Yeah the Dark One might be accepted as an equal god, and the goblins get equal footing in the end, but Xykon will almost inevitably enter the "big fires below" (or get unmade by the snarl).

Of course... Xykon could declare Elan his personal bard for all eternity (making him undead). Singing the praises for the Overlord of the Multiverse, can there a happier ending for a bard?

And yes, I'm totally kidding here, for those that didn't get it
Xykon is rampant destruction without meaning, so you more or less has to have him losing if you want the good guys to get a happy ending. But if the Plan succeeds, nothing bad happens to the good guys right away. It just means there will be yet another society the others have to live with.

[Berserk Monk]

My opinion can be summed up in the following statement:

:roy: "Alright guys. This is the moment: good guys vs bad guys. They're the good guys, and we're the bad guys, and I'll be damned if I'm gonna let the good guys win!"

:smallbiggrin:

[HZ514]

I mean, good ones aren't supposed to win everytime. Elan and Haley could be happy together in afterlife etc.

No, but there's a reason the protagonists in any given story are *ahem* the protagonists. The protagonists will all but never lose, Pyrrhic though the victory may be (Belkar and/or Durkon dead?). At any rate, the antagonists, comprised in this case of Team Evil and the slew of other groups, simply won't come out on top.

[Porthos]

The protagonists will all but never lose, Pyrrhic though the victory may be

Well this page (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DownerEnding) as well as this page (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ShootTheShaggyDog) have many counter examples. :smalltongue: (plus many that didn't make either of those lists - Arlington Road, I'm looking at you)

But in many (tho certainly not all) of those cases, the mood/style of the story is set early enough that one can see the possibility of a Downer Ending (Never mind the more extreme version (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ShootTheShaggyDog)). Here, even with the recent Turn for the Dramatic (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CerebusSyndrome), this is still an Action Adventure type story being told (as per commentary by Rich in WaXPs). And it is very rare for an Action Adventure to end on a completely down note.

The style of story that Rich is telling right now simply isn't suited (I presume) for a Redcloak/Xykon/IFCC/Side-We're-Not-Aware-Of-Yet winning out and establishing dominance over the world.

And before people point to the last 250 or so strips, I'll point out that Star Wars had it's Empire Strikes Back portion of the story. Many stories have the point where the villains have the upper hand it and looks like they will win out. But to paraphrase Xykon, "Successful Villains make for Satisfying Heroes." When said Heroes eventually defeat said Successful villains. After all where would the fun be if Team OotS rolled over all of it's obstacles? :smallwink:

Now, as I said in my previous post, I fully expect there to be some pretty significant losses along the way. As well as a good deal of pain. But, no matter how bittersweet it may be, I still expect Team OotS to win out when all is said and done.

[Gamerlord]

Bad guys can win as many battles as they can, but in the end they will almost always loose the war.
Most some of them can hope for is "survive the war" I think.



"Evil will always find a way"

[Jamin]

More than half of the downer endings in TV Tropes are not even sad so linking there just proves the point of much the heroes win

[Cestrian]

Yeah but what about the classic tragedys? Prometheus, Achilles, Orpheus, Oedipus, Lear, Macbeth, Faust, Romeo and Juliet etc? Or what about 1984 or Blakes 7 or Mice and Men or Watchmen? They are plenty of stories which are about the main character failing or dying.

It's just that the Order of the Stick isn't one of those stories.

[Porthos]

More than half of the downer endings in TV Tropes are not even sad so linking there just proves the point of much the heroes win

Hence "not exhaustive list". :smallwink: And that didn't even get into the Shaggy Dog Story (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ShaggyDogStory) which, while it may not be a Downer Ending, is a case of showing that the Protagonists aren't always the ones who provide the resolution to the story.

But, yes, usually the protagonists win. I think I even said as much. :smalltongue: And, I am sure that I said that I am expecting it in this case. All I was doing was pointing out (with examples) that the main drivers of the story don't always have things turn out to their satisfaction.

And, depending on what the (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SlidingScaleOfIdealismVersusCynicism) trendy style (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DarkAge) of storytelling is at the moment (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NinetiesAntiHero) having protaganists lose (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AntiHero) is almost expected in some quarters. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TrueArtIsAngsty)

Thankfully since such True Art is Angsty (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TrueArtIsAngsty) type storytelling has been done to death (and death and death and death :smalltongue:) recently, there's been a fair amount of backlash to it. Which is ironic, since the whole True Art Is Angsty thing was a backlash itself to the notion that Protagonists Always Win.

It's like cliches tropes the types of stories that are popular are circular or sumthin' when it comes to what is "in vouge" at any one time. :smallbiggrin:

[Lamech]

SoDThe plan is to get the ablity to shift the gates around. Then the rift can be shifted into a gods throne room right next to a disliked god. Then the Snarl does its Snarly stuff and reachs out and kills the god, just like Mijung (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0275.html). Then the now unopposed Dark One rules the world. Its a solid plan. Except for one slight flaw. Panel 2 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0545.html) And here again we see the Snarl NOT (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0659.html) killing anything. The god killing abomination isn't doing its job. Thats a ever so slight problem.So Redcloak's master plan seems flawed at this junction. Of course, if people don't get their acts together they can just stomp the world the old fashioned way. They are the two most powerful casters around. And they have Mr. Wish tosser as well.

Anyway I don't really think we can count on this to have a happy ending especially for specific characters. (Excepting Elan, but let us not forget alignment and memory altering magic.) I don't think that Rich would have the lv 14 party charge Xykon and co. and win, nor do I think the party will try. I have no clue what they will do and have no clue how this will end.

[Pulsecode]

My money is on a pyrrhic victory.

[GooeyChewie]

It seems to me that... (SoD spoilers)

The bad guys could win, but Xykon will not win. Even if team evil "wins," Xykon loses. His win condition involves taking over the whole world. His means to that end is taking control of the gates, but his assumption about how that control works is flawed. If he succeeds in the means to his end, Redcloak wins and Xykon loses.

Now, it is entirely possible that both Redcloak and the good guys "win," if Redcloak can find a way to establish a goblin nation without remaking the whole world. But Xykon still loses out in that scenario.

[waterpenguin43]

My thoughts are that at Girard's gate Belkar will end up killing V somehow, likely by going up to kick the butt of whatever substitute for Yikiyik/Yokyok but gets killed by the substitute and another member of the Linear guild and thrown into Girard's gate while V is concentrating on one of his spells then ends up getting killed by Nale or Thog (Sabine will be busy with Haley). Later Durkon ressurects V and then at Kraagor's gate, Durkon and V both get killed but V casted delayed blast fireball the round before, killing Redcloak and then Durkon's disruption on Roy's sword is used to kill Xykon. Before that MitD is finally revealed but decides not to fight because he likes both sides.

[valce]

Sure they can. Most of the order is brutally killed, Xykon gains control of the Snarl (becoming horribly twisted and even more evil in the process) and uses its power to rule the multiverse as a sadistic, homicidal dictator, destroying entire civilizations (good and evil) on a whim.

Elan's 'happy ending'? He's driven insane by having to watch his closest friends die in horrible ways and spends the rest of his days in an asylum, endlessly reliving happier times*.

It would be a terrible ending, but it *can* be done. (Hopefully this won't give the Giant any ideas :P)

*Actually this was the first thing I thought of when the Oracle told Elan he would have a happy ending. Mostly because I associated the Oracle with the 'evil genie' type, whose prophecies/wishes never turn out the way you would normally expect.

[Callista]

It can end badly. It will certainly involve some sacrifices. I also think that they will pull a net gain out of it, because that's the way these things go. Evil is actually rather isolated as far as alignments go; Neutral would prefer Good to be in power because Good will let them and their family and friends live their lives, and Evil will exploit them; so you have the Neutral and Good teaming up against the Evil side, the Neutral for self-protection. Only way to get Neutrals to fight for Evil is out of intimidation or deception or else giving LNs orders from LE higher-ups. Generally, those things don't make for very good soldiers--not like people who are fighting because it's the Right Thing or fighting to keep their families and homes safe. On a large scale, Good is more powerful. It's only when it comes to one-on-one that Evil gets the extra resources, because Evil guys are willing to use every possible strategy, no matter how vile, and Good guys aren't. Sheer numbers, Good wins. Good always has more allies.

If it does come to failure, most of the Order is of the sort that would rather have tried and failed, rather than not trying in the first place. Even Belkar would prefer to go down fighting, if it came to that... and for him, it may, what with all the prophecies being thrown about.

[Mystic Muse]

Sure they can. Most of the order is brutally killed, Xykon gains control of the Snarl (becoming horribly twisted and even more evil in the process) and uses its power to rule the multiverse as a sadistic, homicidal dictator, destroying entire civilizations (good and evil) on a whim.

Elan's 'happy ending'? He's driven insane by having to watch his closest friends die in horrible ways and spends the rest of his days in an asylum, endlessly reliving happier times*.

It would be a terrible ending, but it *can* be done. (Hopefully this won't give the Giant any ideas :P)

*Actually this was the first thing I thought of when the Oracle told Elan he would have a happy ending. Mostly because I associated the Oracle with the 'evil genie' type, whose prophecies/wishes never turn out the way you would normally expect.

why do people always forget about the whistle?:smalltongue:

no. that won't happen. the giant isn't stupid enough to make all us readers wait so long for comics. (me not nearly as much as some of you though) to end it in such an unsatisfying, stupid copout.

[ttp]

I was talking specifically about the OotS bad-guys in my post.

I just don't see how Xykon/Redcloak can win, without the order getting smoked.
Sure they could. I don't consider it very likely, but the Order could decisively lose, and still walk away more-or-less intact.

In fact, if Redcloak really gets everything he wants, the good guys won't even end up all that miserable. He's willing to unmake the world if necessary, but his optimal outcome would be for the gods to cave to his extortion attempt and offer the Dark One an equal place in their pantheons. In the mortal realm, goblins would take their place as equals to the other races, and modulo a few brutal wars of conquest, life would go on. The Order would have to fail for this to happen, but wouldn't have to die. They might even be instrumental in forging a peace between the goblins and humans and turning Redcloak's victory into a good outcome for everyone.

Not much chance that things will work out that way -- "everything goes perfectly for Redcloak" is as boring an outcome as "everything goes perfectly for the good guys" -- but whatever does happen, enough key elements of Redcloak's plan may be salvaged for him to declare a victory of sorts, even at the cost of his life and/or soul.

Xykon, on the other hand, is unlikely to win, since (as far as we know) his version of the Plan is based on deceptive information. Chances are he will realize Redcloak's betrayal at some point, lash out with enough raw power and surprising shrewdness to have a major effect on the outcome, but then go down to defeat (and probably, but not necessarily, permanent destruction.)

As for the other bad guys...well, Tsukiko wins as long as she finds a more open-minded lich than Xykon. Jirix wins as long as he gets to shove TPS cover sheets up three or more of Redcloak's orifices. Thog wins if he gets a puppy and some ice cream, and manages to remember which you eat and which you play with. Nale wins if he blows himself up while thinking that he took Elan with him. Sabine wins if she ousts the IFCC and takes their jobs. None of which keeps our protagonists from ending up happy, as long as it's not THEM that Tsuki looks to for her new playmates. :smalleek:

Oh, and the MBD? She doesn't win.

[Jubal_Barca]

I call Redcloak dying (or prolly being snarled), but in some form/act of repentance.

[Ridureyu]

Of course, it could be that Redcloak's actions actually set the goblins BACK a lot, and that they only become a regular part of society over a long period of time and integration with others.

[Larkspur]

Xykon is toast. This isn't the kind of story where the villain gets to go home happy, and Xykon isn't that kind of villain. Besides, if he won he'd be bored out of his mind. Xykon is an adventurer, not an administrator; actually ruling the world would hold no interest for him. There's really no happy ending for Xykon unless he drops the gate-quest and finds a new hobby, which he's not going to do anyway, and there are too many people we like better than Xykon (the OOTS, the Azurites, Redcloak) who are out for his blood for him to be left unpunished at the end.

Nale is probably also toast, because even though he's not important enough to need to die, he's an awfully big loose end to leave dangling over Elan and Haley's future happiness. Sabine probably survives. Thog either survives or dies tragically trying to save a puppy from Nale.

Belkar... we'll see.

Tsukiko had better get herself a lot of character development and fast if she wants to live, because right now she's set up as the perfect miniboss for the Order to plow through on their way to Xykon; interesting enough to make a good battle, but not so developed that anyone really cares what happens to her. Plus she has that rivalry with Haley going, so Haley gets her boss battle to complement Roy's big battle with Xykon.

I'm betting Jirix dies in connection with the climax of Redcloak's plotline, but he's so minor he might actually survive.

Redcloak certainly isn't going to get an unconditional victory, but having raised the Goblin Problem Rich can't just let it drop again without addressing it somehow, so I doubt Redcloak completely loses either. I'm betting that a) Redcloak's part of the Plan actually succeeds (and gets Redcloak killed) but something goes wrong on the other end, b) Redcloak gets killed helping the Order defeat Xykon and gets some sort of concession for the goblins in return (maybe the hobbos get to keep Azure City) or c) Team Evil fails completely but Redcloak survives, and has to figure out what to do with his life post-Plan. Whatever happens, I doubt a total defeat is in his future.

MiTD lives for sure. There's too much invested in his character development for him to get killed off by Xykon the instant he rebels. He probably goes off to be fed muffins by Inkyrius or something.

[Porthos]

Thog either survives or dies tragically trying to save a puppy from Nale.

You know, when I read statements like this, I wonder if people actually remember what Thog considers a puppy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0142.html) or not. :smalltongue:

[Morgan Wick]

The fact the oracle told Elan "for you, at least" suggests it will not be an unconditionally happy ending for everyone.

SoD Xykon has a thingamajigger on MitD that will cause him to gobble up Redcloak if the latter turns on him. This could be seen as a sign that Redcloak will turn on Xykon and destroy the plan; I actually see it, because of the vagaries of Redcloak's plan, as a way for Team Evil to be completely successful and the good guys to still win in the end. In fact, Redcloak and Roy could both get exactly what they want, even if the former is dead for it. I'll post more about this in another thread.

[Cleverdan22]

No, the bad guys will not win. Not all the way at least. It's called Order of the Stick for a reason. They are the protagonists, and they are going to be successful. At a high cost most likely, and at least one death, but successful. Redcloak and the Dark One's plan will not be realized to full extent, but I am of the belief that Redcloak will make Azure City and surrounding places goblin territory, and he and the Dark One will come to accept it.

[Morquard]

Sure they could. I don't consider it very likely, but the Order could decisively lose, and still walk away more-or-less intact.

In fact, if Redcloak really gets everything he wants, the good guys won't even end up all that miserable. He's willing to unmake the world if necessary, but his optimal outcome would be for the gods to cave to his extortion attempt and offer the Dark One an equal place in their pantheons. In the mortal realm, goblins would take their place as equals to the other races, and modulo a few brutal wars of conquest, life would go on. The Order would have to fail for this to happen, but wouldn't have to die. They might even be instrumental in forging a peace between the goblins and humans and turning Redcloak's victory into a good outcome for everyone.

Actually I disagree on htis.
The Dark One is an evil god, do you really think when he holds the ultimate god-killing weapon he'll settle for scraps, aka equallity for goblins?
I htink he would want to raise to Overlord of Gods and make the goblins rulers of the world.
Redcloak might think "If we fail with an equal footing, we deserve to die", but I'm sure even he would change his mind if he actually holds the weapon to force the issue.

So no, I don't see the Plan as succeeding has any possibility.


Not much chance that things will work out that way -- "everything goes perfectly for Redcloak" is as boring an outcome as "everything goes perfectly for the good guys" -- but whatever does happen, enough key elements of Redcloak's plan may be salvaged for him to declare a victory of sorts, even at the cost of his life and/or soul.
That might happen. I mean they have fortified Azure City, they're starting to build trade relations to other cities.
Azurites are building a new city themselves and don't seem dead-set on reclaiming their old one.
So unless Xykon just blasts the place before he leaves, or some other nation conquest them, this might actually be the Goblin's Happy Ending.


Xykon, on the other hand, is unlikely to win, since (as far as we know) his version of the Plan is based on deceptive information. Chances are he will realize Redcloak's betrayal at some point, lash out with enough raw power and surprising shrewdness to have a major effect on the outcome, but then go down to defeat (and probably, but not necessarily, permanent destruction.)
Xykon is too powerful for the OotS world, he either needs to die or drained 20 levels.
And I still say, I think he knows Redcloak is lying to him about the plan, he might very well know what the plan is even. But at the moment he might simply not care (see SOD), as long as Redcloak does as he's told.



As for the other bad guys...well, Tsukiko wins as long as she finds a more open-minded lich than Xykon. Jirix wins as long as he gets to shove TPS cover sheets up three or more of Redcloak's orifices. Thog wins if he gets a puppy and some ice cream, and manages to remember which you eat and which you play with. Nale wins if he blows himself up while thinking that he took Elan with him. Sabine wins if she ousts the IFCC and takes their jobs. None of which keeps our protagonists from ending up happy, as long as it's not THEM that Tsuki looks to for her new playmates. :smalleek:

Oh, and the MBD? She doesn't win.
MBD? Mother Black Dragon? Thought she already lost :)

Tsukiko is one of those I think can hope to "survive the war" as i said it above.
Jirix may become the new leader of Goblin City (formerly known as Azure City).
Thog, while lovely on so many levles is still a terribly evil creature without any morality. Well so is Tsukiko, so he might survive as well.
Nale is gonna die. Period
I think Sabine is gonna die too, probably killed by the new IFCC director, Overlord Qarr, for failing terribly on her mission :)

[CliveStaples]

It looks like the Bad Guys win plenty of times in this story so far. I mean, have you taken one look at Azure City lately? :smalltongue:

But if you mean ultimately, since OotS isn't some emo whine fest (usually :smalltongue:) I highly doubt there will be a Downer Ending (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DownerEnding). That's not to say that there won't be a high cost to the eventual victory. I'm sure there will be.

But I somehow doubt the story will end with Redcloak/Xykon/IFCC victorious.

Because that would, quite frankly, suck rocks.

The "downer ending" would be if the Good guys won. Only the super-cool, scary-smart, mega-effective Non-Good alignments can be allowed to succeed. Haven't you been reading?

[Pyron]

I mean, good ones aren't supposed to win everytime. Elan and Haley could be happy together in afterlife etc.

The way I look at it: The best possible way for Elan to have a happy ending (and still lose) is for him to actually want to destroy the world.

That would go something like this: (Massive Spoilers!)
1) The Azure City Refuges are engulfed in civil war. Kubuto was a beloved pillar of the community who mysterious disappeared during the same night that a giant stone devil appeared. One of surviving members of the Sapphire Guard mysteriously teleports, and the nobles hear rumors that the creature he befriended is suspiciously demonic. Meanwhile one of the nobleman arcanists divine into the question of Lord Shojo's death (answer given: a Paladin).

Put all of these half-truths together, the azurite population rally against Hinjo (fearing that he aligned himself with demons). With a heavy heart, the paladins are forced to suppress the rebellion with heavy casualties. Hinjo (needing to restore and maintain order) strips all non-loyal azurites of their rights. Through divine mandate they become second-class citizens. While not completely a lawful evil society, still, Azure City becomes an oppressive monarchy.

2) Moving on to Girard's Gate. When the Order reaches the gate, the IFCC seizes V's soul to claim it. This happened at the moment when V, Durkon, and Belkar are together. A short battle ensures, and Durkon ends up dying by V's magic (but manages to destroy the gate in the battle).

Roy, Elan, and Haley return. The IFCC, knowing that they can't take on the rest of the party with V's power, quickly blames Belkar for the dwarf's death. Believing that lie, Roy decides to finally kill the halfling for crossing the line (party-killing). First moment in his life, Belkar actually pleads for mercy . It falls on deaf ears and is struck down. His body gets claimed by the snarl and the ranger draws his last breath.

3) Haley and Elan discover the truth behind their respected fathers. This unfolds when finally reconciles with his father. At that moment an imprisoned rogue tries to assassinate Lord T, but the dashing hero stops him (with a bad pun). Haley is furious, but Elan defends his decision and his father. Haley then explains that the dead rogue was her father, calls Elan's father a monster, and refuses to forgive him. When everything is said and done, the two decide to break up as a couple. They do, continue to work together to stop Xykon but every future moment is awkward and bitter.

4) Meanwhile, Tiamat empowers two elven clerics with orders to kill Vaarsuvius. They are also given a dagger with powerful necromancy magic. They explain that the dagger is fueled with a Lesser Famlicide spell and intend to use it to kill V's immediate family. V wins the fight and uses the dagger on them. But they have no immediate family, although one comments that (technically) they gave their children up for adoption. At that moment, V's recognizes the resemblance and a dragon goddess cackles with glee.

5) Hearta returns and possesses Julia. As this happens, she crosses paths with Roy. Roy tries to break the trance (using grand-pa's mage slayer feat), but ends up killing his sister in the process. Someone remarks that Julia, being true neutral, is going to a different afterlife than her family and will spend eternity alone. Eugune manifest and explains he actually convinced Hearta to splice with Julia, so they can defeat Xykon. Needless to say, he's furious at Roy's intervention and finally disowns him.

6) When the party returns to Kraggor's gate, they bring Durkon's body for burial. At this moment, Xykon's forces attack the clanhold (bringing death and destruction). The Lich's plan was to enslave the survivors for dig through the last Gate. The Order of the Stick loss this battle and end up being enslaved as well. Oh, Xykon animates Durkon's corpse as a zombie task-master.

The story will conclude as the protagonists are forces to help the villain achieve their ends. Elan watches as the world he once loved is turning into a bitter crap-sack. He also sees that all of his friends lost their will to fight. But, he then remembers that if the last gate is destroyed, the gods can remake the world.

The threads of reality are unmade and he's finally has his “happy ending”.

Thank you for reading ^-^
How's that for a downer? :smallwink:

[Jagos]

I mean, good ones aren't supposed to win everytime. Elan and Haley could be happy together in afterlife etc.

Yes, but think about if Miko had won a round or two... O_o

[veti]

In fact, if Redcloak really gets everything he wants, the good guys won't even end up all that miserable. (...) In the mortal realm, goblins would take their place as equals to the other races, and modulo a few brutal wars of conquest, life would go on. The Order would have to fail for this to happen, but wouldn't have to die.

That's an excellent point. In fact, the Order needn't even "fail" in their primary quest, because their primary quest (at the outset) was "destroy Xykon", which then morphed into "and save the world from destruction" - they could theoretically achieve both those aims without stopping Redcloak.


As for the other bad guys...well, Tsukiko wins as long as she finds a more open-minded lich than Xykon. Jirix wins as long as he gets to shove TPS cover sheets up three or more of Redcloak's orifices. Thog wins if he gets a puppy and some ice cream, and manages to remember which you eat and which you play with. Nale wins if he blows himself up while thinking that he took Elan with him. Sabine wins if she ousts the IFCC and takes their jobs. None of which keeps our protagonists from ending up happy, as long as it's not THEM that Tsuki looks to for her new playmates. :smalleek:

Tsukiko isn't going to end up that happy unless she reconciles with Haley somehow. What you've described for Jirix and Thog isn't so much a happy ending as a momentary diversion. As for Nale and Sabine - I think Nale's defeat is integral to Elan's happy ending, although it'd be even better if Nale is converted. If Sabine is promoted, she'll probably just disappear as far as our heroes are concerned, so there's no conflict necessary there.

And the MITD will be happy as long as it gets to come out of the dark, and has some friends to play with.

[Forum Explorer]

The bad guys could win and OotS could be decimated. Rich has proven to be a clever enough writer that it seems almost pointless to guess what will happen at the end with still so much story to go. Like Roy said there is another half of the game to go.

[Elfey]

I honestly want Redcloak's goal to be solved. Not his method, of course. But what I want is alignment as a racial classification to be undone. Lawful good Goblins living in peace with other lawful good.

I hope Redcloak knows this before he dies as penance.