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Coidzor
2009-07-04, 03:41 PM
So I was just wondering what skills exist or uses for skills exist that aren't right there in the PHB that are especially useful...

Or at least, are useful other than as a substitute for spellcasting (I'm looking at you, Truenaminger)

Any lists of skills and their applications floating around that are pretty good? I checked the crystal keep skills index and it seems to be only the PHB-skills with the addition of some non-PHB uses and skill tricks.

I know Iajutsu focus can be useful to certain quickdrawing builds for the bonus to attack... anything else?

erikun
2009-07-04, 03:43 PM
Diplomancer?

TSED
2009-07-04, 03:44 PM
Diplomancer?

Is in the PHB.


I, personally, can't really think of any. There's the psionic spellcraft equivalent and Martial Lore, but that's more because they're... well, spellcraft equivalents. I got nothin'.

Coidzor
2009-07-04, 03:52 PM
What's Martial Lore from? ToB? And does it basically identify what Tome of Battle combat maneuvers a character is using?

deuxhero
2009-07-04, 03:55 PM
There is the skillcheck based bending rules someone on the homebrew forum created, but that is pretty much casting.

Demons_eye
2009-07-04, 03:59 PM
This site (http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Skills_Actions.pdf) has a list of skills and different uses.

erikun
2009-07-04, 04:09 PM
I obviously didn't read well enough. :smallannoyed: Let's try this advice again, then.

I'm not sure if it's what you're looking for, but Knowledge Devotion (Complete Champion) allows you to make a knowledge check to grant an insight bonus to attack/damage rolls. You always make a roll when fighting any creature, and get at least a +1 bonus, reguardless of the roll.

The Kensai prestige class (Complete Warrior) apparently allows for Concentration checks for several class bonuses - including substituting for a Relfex save in some cases.

Able Learner (Races of Destiny) allows you to spend 1 skill point for 1 rank in cross class skill, rather than the usual 2 skill points. Can only be picked up by a 1st level human or doppelganger, though.

Perhaps not quite what you're thinking of, but I hope it helps.

Mavian
2009-07-04, 04:14 PM
Autohypnosis (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/skills/autohypnosis.htm) lets you make a DC 20 check to stablize, along with a few other things.

It's not actually in the PHB, although it is till in the SRD

Eldariel
2009-07-04, 04:19 PM
The ones with uses outside specific campaigns:

Autohypnosis [XPH]
Iaijutsu Focus [OA]
Use Psionic Device [XPH]


Others of interest exist, but aren't very useful unless heavily incorporated into campaign (say Lucid Dreaming [MoTP]).

TSED
2009-07-04, 04:23 PM
What's Martial Lore from? ToB? And does it basically identify what Tome of Battle combat maneuvers a character is using?

Yes, you've got it exactly.

Zaq
2009-07-04, 04:59 PM
There's Control Shape, in the Monster Manual. Lets a lycanthrope have some choice over what form he takes.

Dhavaer
2009-07-04, 06:22 PM
Complete Adventurer gives an extra use for Sense Motive: estimate a creature's CR.

Dixieboy
2009-07-04, 06:37 PM
Complete Adventurer gives an extra use for Sense Motive: estimate a creature's CR. :smallannoyed:
What?

How is that not a knowledge check?
Why is that sense motive?

Are they trying to HIDE their CR from you?
*imagines a dragon going "No, don't look" while covering up his stat block in the monster manual*

I know you didn't make it that way but my brain is collapsing trying to work this out.

Eldariel
2009-07-04, 06:41 PM
:smallannoyed:
What?

How is that not a knowledge check?
Why is that sense motive?

Are they trying to HIDE their CR from you?
*imagines a dragon going "No, don't look" while covering up his stat block in the monster manual*

I know you didn't make it that way but my brain is collapsing trying to work this out.

It means "sizing up the opposition"; you don't need to know exactly what you are fighting to estimate how tough it is. It resembles a Knowledge-check, but you basically size up the opposition. It can be opposed by Bluff IIRC, but it mostly works like Knowledge check vs. 10+HD.

quick_comment
2009-07-04, 07:07 PM
:smallannoyed:
What?

How is that not a knowledge check?
Why is that sense motive?

Are they trying to HIDE their CR from you?
*imagines a dragon going "No, don't look" while covering up his stat block in the monster manual*

I know you didn't make it that way but my brain is collapsing trying to work this out.
It seems fairly reasonable for sizing up a humanoid opponent, rather than a 'monster' whose power comes primarily from its form. A humanoid opponent will nearly always want to gain an advantage by appearing either as strong as possible (to avoid a fight by scaring the PCs off, or even just for pure ego reasons) or as weak as possible (to escape notice by appearing insignificant, or to lure the PCs into a fight and then surprise them), and Sense Motive seems like the best fit for a skill to see through this very common form of deception. Knowledge can't really answer the question of how powerful one particular swordsman is.

For visually apparent power, I'll agree that it's pretty silly. It might make sense as an attempt to see through some greater trick (i.e. the draconic form is just an illusion and the creature is really much weaker, and thus it's seemingly inappropriately scared about the upcoming battle), but beyond that it shouldn't apply.

Eldariel
2009-07-04, 07:29 PM
For any intelligent creature, you can easily assess how self-confident it appears and how real that confidence seems to be, how much apparent power it seems to wield, what it seems to think of you, etc.

Really, with at most a Knowledge-check, it seems completely plausible to apply it to everything. Strength is apparent in everything from essence to posture; a mighty creature just carries itself differently than prey at the bottom of the foodchain, animal, human or aberration.


Really, the only thing where it seems unplausible are unintelligent creatures that obviously cannot display such signs. In that case, it really just comes down to assessing the creature's combat capabilities, which in turn requires a successful Knowledge-check (but with one, I'd still allow assessment to figure out how it stacks up vs. you).

Note that it doesn't tell you exact CR or any OOC information like that, it just gives you category of the threat ("Push over"; CR 4- under your ECL, "Fairly easy"; CR 1-3 under your ECL, "Fair fight"; CR equal to your ECL, "Tough challenge"; CR 1-3 over your ECL or "Dire threat"; CR 4- over your ECL with things with type advantage over you (such as Undead vs. Rogue) registering as 1 category over, and ones with disadvantage (such as Undead vs. Cleric) registering as 1 category under). It's a great rule and one I make constant use of in-game.

arkol
2009-07-04, 07:35 PM
So I was just wondering what skills exist or uses for skills exist that aren't right there in the PHB that are especially useful...

A sort of new skill is perform: weapon drill. It's still a perform so you can use it to make money like any other perform skill, but it as all sorts of bonus coming from bab and combat feats. You can use them to mpress people, namely at fights with spectators, to get people to cheer for you, like arena/gladiator fights.

jcsw
2009-07-04, 07:52 PM
A sort of new skill is perform: weapon drill. It's still a perform so you can use it to make money like any other perform skill, but it as all sorts of bonus coming from bab and combat feats. You can use them to mpress people, namely at fights with spectators, to get people to cheer for you, like arena/gladiator fights.

Unfortunately it can't be used for bardic music (you know, for when you wanna get your DM to let you use it for Snowflake Wardance)

Craft(Poisonmaking) is also not actually in core, since it lacks any printed DCs until C.Adventurer. It's useful cause it's one of the best crafting skills for making money, if you can get around the whole "Poisons are Illegal/Bad" thing.

Forgery is a skill in core, yet sees almost no use. It can be used like a social skill, and is only opposed by forgery checks. Using this you can get hefty bonuses to bluff checks, or pretend you have meetings with the Mayor, or...

Coidzor
2009-07-05, 01:50 AM
*imagines a dragon going "No, don't look" while covering up his stat block in the monster manual*

I know you didn't make it that way but my brain is collapsing trying to work this out.

No... but I think if it were a nymph doing it in the right way, then that'd be pretty hot....

I'd forgotten about that CR-estimation thing, thanks, Dhavaer. So, with a combination of various Knowledge skills and Sense Motive, the type and CR of the enemy can be reasonably ascertained...

Hmm... I think that's the main problem with Forgery, mostly limited by imagination due to not having that many good examples of its use and to primarily social interactions... So those with the skill on their lists generally don't pick it unless it's a social skill.

Harperfan7
2009-07-05, 02:56 AM
Proffession (Seige Engineer) gets overlooked. Combine it with Knowledge (Architecture & Engineering) for targeting weaknesses in construction.

You'd think Craft (Taxidermist) would get a ton of use in D&D. What monster doesn't have a body part (or several) that could be put to use?

I think you should be able to use Craft (Trapmaking) to make simple traps that fire grenades (acid, alchemists fire, smokepowder bombs), guns, crossbows, poison darts, wands, etc. at anyone tripping them. Neverwinter Nights did this to some extent.

I remember someone proposing a skill that lets you guard your mind against mind reading and similar divinations. Seemed like a good idea.

Also, I think forgery was intentionally left undetailed because its use should be determined by the DM, otherwise it could VERY easily be abused.

Gaiyamato
2009-07-05, 07:01 AM
Knowledge (anatomy)
Forbidden Knowledge (not a standard knowledge skill)
Craft (Bone Carving)

Coidzor
2009-07-05, 07:10 AM
Knowledge (anatomy)
Forbidden Knowledge (not a standard knowledge skill)
Craft (Bone Carving)

What can you do with those skills? Anatomy let you get better chance at criticals?

I am intrigued.

Yora
2009-07-05, 07:12 AM
"Knowledge (Warfare)" or "Tactics" or something like that sounds like an awsome skill for fighters, rangers and paladins. But So far, I havn't seen many ideas about what to actually do with the skill.

Gaiyamato
2009-07-05, 07:23 AM
Knowledge (Anatomy) lets you locate specific organs etc. Very vague general stuff. It's main use is to give stackable synergy bonuses to Heal, Craft (Embalming) and Craft (Construct) checks. I use it in conjuction with harvesting and making Grafts.

Forbidden Lore is an optional skill for use in Cuthulu esque games. You need to be exposed to horrific stuff to be able to get even one point of it, or pour through the sort of tomes that normally require a lead room to seal them in.
Usually aquiring Taint is associated. lol.
The skill helps in very vague ways against certain badies, often even the BBEG himself. lol.

Craft (Bone Carving) simply lets you make very very fine bone items. Ivory carving etc. You can also use it to make the bone items used in Black Lore of Moil instead of the normal checks if you want too.


"Knowledge (Warfare)" or "Tactics" or something like that sounds like an awsome skill for fighters, rangers and paladins. But So far, I havn't seen many ideas about what to actually do with the skill.

Martial Lore takes the place of that and is on page 28 of the Tome of Battle.

It's main use is to allow you to read maneuvers from scrolls and learn/use them like Wizards do spells. Which is totally cool.
It also lets you scribe your own known maneuvers onto these "Martial Manuscripts".
:)

Eldariel
2009-07-05, 07:40 AM
"Knowledge (Warfare)" or "Tactics" or something like that sounds like an awsome skill for fighters, rangers and paladins. But So far, I havn't seen many ideas about what to actually do with the skill.

I've been juggling the idea of giving Circumstance-bonuses in combat if you're prepared for the fight with those skills. It's funny how presently a Wizard knows more about warfare than a Fighter even though the Wizard doesn't give a rat's ass, while it's all the Fighter does.

Gaiyamato
2009-07-05, 08:01 AM
Hence why it was replaced with Martial Lore in Tome of Battle. lol.

Yora
2009-07-05, 09:05 AM
I've been juggling the idea of giving Circumstance-bonuses in combat if you're prepared for the fight with those skills. It's funny how presently a Wizard knows more about warfare than a Fighter even though the Wizard doesn't give a rat's ass, while it's all the Fighter does.

But martial lore is spellcraft for martial adepts.

I think cool uses would be directing your party members in doing ambushes, create an effective defense, and the like.
I think the only such maneuver in the core rules is flanking. There are a number of interesting maneuvers you can think of, but how to make them a balanced and interesting system is the hard part, which probably would take quite some time.

quick_comment
2009-07-05, 09:46 AM
I think cool uses would be directing your party members in doing ambushes, create an effective defense, and the like.

Thats basically white raven