Why on Earth does everyone tell me bards suck.

[Theres]

This is a discussion. if your going to post don't simply reply to my question with "becuz there bards dur" i want a fully thought out reply to this simple question. Every time my buddies and i decide to playa good game of dnd (all six of us) they fill all the necessary roles except for a sneaky type anything or a pure caster (no rouge no wizard no sorcerer) so to remedy this and to have fun i play a bard. then everyone gets all mad because "bards suck, there stupid". we don't house rule very much and stick with the core rules so just the PHB classes. give me your personal opinion on the bard

[Pharaoh's Fist]

They're pretty weak in core, but can become very powerful outside of core due to better support.

[Quietus]

Bards aren't specialists. D&D rewards specialists, making you exceptionally good at one thing - bards, at least in core, cannot do this.

That being said, there's plenty of ways to optimize a bard. Tossing around Dragonfire Inspiration for 9d6 fire (or sonic!) damage on every attack your party makes, with spells as backup and some party facing, may make them change their mind.

[only1doug]

because they don't (didn't) get full casting, lack of 9th level spells is considered a cardinal sin amoung full casting classes.

A PRC now fixes this by giving Bards 9th level spells so some people no longer believe bards to be as bad.

[Yuki Akuma]

Because Bards focus mainly on helping allies, therefore rarely actually doing much damage on their own.

{Scrubbed}

[Captain Alien]

It has decent BAB, useful spellcasting (sightly better than Ranger's), Light Armor proficence and Arcane Spellcasting at the same time, Bard's Songs, a lot of useful skills...

I cannot see why they may be a bad class. They are versatile and cool. And here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=bc18425e5fa73d30e4a9a54889edf4 4e&topic=1002.0) it says they are Tier 3. I belive they are.

[Berserk Monk]

I'm not really sure why either, but then again, I'm not sure about half the things people think concerning D&D (like why so many people think monks suck, but that's getting off topic). The only reason I could think of is because they don't really specialize in anything, but they are fun to roleplay.

[Vorpal word]

It has decent BAB, useful spellcasting (sightly better than Ranger's), Light Armor proficence and Arcane Spellcasting at the same time, Bard's Songs, a lot of useful skills...

I cannot see why they may be a bad class. They are versatile and cool. And here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=bc18425e5fa73d30e4a9a54889edf4 4e&topic=1002.0) it says they are Tier 3. I belive they are.

The post also ranks Fighters as Tier 4-5...which is totally reasonable according to class vs class balance in 3.5e. I think bards are only as bad as they looked; in my playing group nobody like bards because of limited spellcasting until 4e bards came out, but now they're apparently OK.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

If you want your bard to take off, grab the following things:

Badge of Valor item: +1 to Inspire Courage
Song of the Heart feat: +1 to Inspire Courage
Inspirational Boost spell: +1 to Inspire Courage
Masterwork Instrument: +1 to Inspire Courage if you pick the right type. These are found in the Complete Adventurer.
Words of Creation: Doubles your Inspire Courage Bonus. You take some nonlethal damage though, but you can work around that easily.
Dragonfire Inspiration feat: converts your Inspire Courage bonus of x into elemental damage of xd6. Default is fire, if you have the blood of, say, a silver dragon from being a Silverbrow Human, you can toggle between fire and cold damage.
Melodic Casting feat: allows you to use a Perform check in place of Concentration for spells, as well as letting you cast spells while you sing.
Lingering Song feat: Your bard song lasts for 10 rounds after you finish singing.
OR
Harmonizing Weapon enchantment: Your weapon will hold a song for you for 10 rounds. This allows you to use regular Inspire Courage and Dragonfire Inspiration at the same time.
Gloves of the Balanced Hand item, gives you TWF if you don't have it already.
Snowflake Wardance feat: adds your Charisma modifier to attack rolls with light slashing weapons that you wield in one hand. Costs one use of bardic music to activate as a swift action.

So basically you have an IC bonus of 12 at 9th level when you can pull this all off. That's +12 attack and damage, as well as +12d6 fire or cold damage.

Spend two rounds singing, a different song each time, then buff the party with Haste, cast some other spells if necessary, and then wade in and TWF everything in sight to death.


I'm not sure about half the things people think concerning D&D (like why so many people think monks suck, but that's getting off topic).
MAD is, I think, one of the most pressing issues.

[Keld Denar]

I'm gonna agree with Pharaoh on this one. In core, you can't boost your Inspire Courage enough to be WORTH the action required to put it up, you're spellcasting lags several levels behind a wizard (you don't even GET spells really till 2nd level...0th level bard cantrips are crud outside of Prestidigitation). Also, there are almost NO feats in core that aide bards in customization. You need at LEAST the Completes + MIC + SpC to bring bards up to a reasonable level, and then you need things piecemeal like the Ebberon Campaign Setting (Song of the Heart), Dragon Magic (Dragonfire Inspiration), Tome of Battle (Song of the White Raven) and various other books to keep options up.

Outside of Core, Bards can do ANYTHING they want. Strikers, Controllers, Healers, Buffers, Archers, Melee, anything.

[Signmaker]

In core, bards don't really get too far past the '5th wheel' concept, which is probably where you're getting the complaints from. They're firmly supported by splatbooks, however. As stated before, you've got Sublime Chord offering 9th level spells, Dragonfire Inspiration offering MASSIVE party benefits, and various PrCs like Seeker of the Song (jam spellcasting) and Stormsinger(you SING lightning, and is one of the few methods of having d20s be your damage dice) offering quirky ways to make your bard a potent force.

[Oblivious]

They just suck at combat. The key to combat is getting the most out of every action. Bards have a lot of options, but none are very strong and all require you use up an action. They also (unintuitively enough) LACK versatility in their spell selection because practically all their combat spells grant will saves.

[Theres]

when your party is full of barbarians, fighters and a cleric who somehow sucks at healing we needed somebody who wasnt but ugly either ( everyone has low charisma + there dwarves and half orcs) so an attractive gnome bard with max hit points and an armload of weapons seemed a good idea. and he's the only one who's kept the party alive and moving (stealing us a keelboat, interrogating a prisoner, using the 0 level spell sending to coordinate our sniper to kill three baddies and saving out helpless npc)

[AslanCross]

Classes in D&D are generally considered powerful when they're good at what they're meant to do. For example, the crusader can tank well. The knight can tank, too.

They're considered overpowered when they can do anything well. The wizard and cleric, for example.

The core bard is still a caster, so he still has something to contribute. He has decent spells as well, but he's not excellent at anything.

With non-core support (Spell Compendium, Frostburn for Snowflake War Dance, Dragon Magic for Dragonfire Inspiration, Tome of Battle for Song of the White Raven), they can end up doing some cool melee action in addition to their buffing.

While I do believe that some classes are inherently bad, a group who really needs it will find a use for it. I don't think the bard is in the horrible suck category.

[T.G. Oskar]

when your party is full of barbarians, fighters and a cleric who somehow sucks at healing we needed somebody who wasnt but ugly either ( everyone has low charisma + there dwarves and half orcs) so an attractive gnome bard with max hit points and an armload of weapons seemed a good idea. and he's the only one who's kept the party alive and moving (stealing us a keelboat, interrogating a prisoner, using the 0 level spell sending to coordinate our sniper to kill three baddies and saving out helpless npc)

Even more reason why your bard is actually awesome in that set up. Yes, even as Core.

Bards have a lot of gems that most people miss. For instance, they can get most of the defensive Illusion spells (Blur, Blink, Displacement, Mirror Image, and the ever-useful Invisibility); they get Grease which is one-third of the utility belt of the Batman Wizard; they get Haste which is superb as a buffing ability, and has most of the healing spells of a Cleric which they can use in a pinch. They have Use Magic Device which is one of the reasons a Rogue is so useful in its job, and they are dependant on Charisma for their spells as well as having a very decent amount of skill points so they can devote themselves to UMDing stuff and working properly.

Even though this goes against action economy, using a Wand of Cure Serious/Critical Wounds while invisible without the need of an UMD check while the others dish damage and blast people around. Plus, they got pretty nice healing spells nonetheless (Break Enchantment and Neutralize Poison), and with some talent they can even throw a blast or two (with Shadow Evocation, although blaster spells aren't the Bard's expertise). Furthermore, if you lead your party well, you can pretty much end a battle before the five turns after you stop singing Inspire Courage are over.

As well, if your party is composed mostly of melee fighters, Inspire Courage is a definite boon. Consider that, per each hit which adds your bonuses from the song to Attack and Damage, you are "attacking" and dealing damage equal to the bonus of the song. So, in the end, you technically do damage.

That's merely Core. When you get to out of Core, things get funnier, as explained earlier: the boost to Inspire Courage, making high dice of elemental damage with Dragonfire Inspiration, getting 9th level spells with Sublime Chord, casting while singing so your song never gets interrupted, a wider list of wands and scrolls when necessary... The point is that Bards aren't actually meant to fight in the midst of battle; they are fit for buffing a lot and then remaining on the sidelines, finding moments where it can shine. And even with just plain Core, it can work: the Cleric is too busy buffing itself and outpacing the Fighter, and you'll be actually assisting the Batman Wizard to make the buffing job even easier, allowing him to go straight to battlefield control while you work with the remaining buffs.

And if your enemy is weak against mind-affecting spells and has a pathetic Will save, it can be a target for coup-de-grace. Try recalling that to your pals when they say Bards suck. Recall to them (and specifically the odd cleric in your party) that melee begins to suck later on.

Methinks that the main reason why people such as your fellow friends say that the Bard sucks is because they measure classes' utility merely in combat, while forgetting that there is more to combat than swinging a sword and dealing "OMGWTFBBQ" damage. Remind them of split-second Diplomancy and how a battle can begin from a hostile situation to a free use of Mass Dominate Monster, if only because your Charisma, skill points, and spells aid you to it (though that one is mostly out-of-Core)

[Umael]

As one of the people who does not like Bards, let me chime in with a counter opinion.

1) Personal opinion - As a concept, bards don't seem to fit well. As Elan said, they sing at their enemies, for Pete's sake! It is kind of a silly class. Look at movies to get an idea of what I'm talking about - Matrix has a feel of Monk, or Fighter, or Sorcerer to it. Mission: Impossible has a lot of Rogue to it. Dragonheart has Fighter, maybe even Paladin to it. Harry Potter has lots of Wizard to it. I'm sure you can look around and find a few movies that have a feel of Cleric to it, especially it if involves horror movies with demons or ghosts or vampires. There is something cool about swords slashing, fists flying, and horribly flashy magic crackling off the fingertips of the heroes (or villains).

But bards?

They're the frickin' score! They're the music! Sure, a good movie has good music to it, but putting the music as one of the protagonists in the movie?!? And the villain decides to take a swing at him (or her) instead of the hulking barbarian swinging the huge axe?? That's like Spaceballs and Dark Helmet taking out the cameraman!

Yes, the bard, the actual Celtic or Greek bard (and probably lots of others) was a special individual in society, but he was definitely not a hero. He sang about the heroes, he passed on information and stories. He was about the equal of today's rockstar.

Imagine how that would go down.

Leader: Okay, the chopper lands in fifteen, so listen up! We got four hostages that need to be rescued, nine terrorists, and a computer hacker that's accessing government secrets and downloading them as we speak! You people are the best of the best, but for this to work, you need to work as a team! We've got Jones, who is an expert on infiltration and close-combat, James, who handles heavy firepower support, Christian, who is our best hacker, Karl, our medic, and Simmons, our rockstar.
Simmons: Yo.
Jones: Oh, thank you God, we've got a rockstar! Here I was thinking we wouldn't have a chance!


2) More objective look - Without looking at anything outside of the PHB, the Bards suffer because, as it was pointed out already, they aren't specialists. If they have to, they can fight, but they get d6 hit points, light armor, +3/4 BAB, and a less than impressive array of weapons. Plus they need Charisma, Intelligence, and Dexterity for a good build, and everyone needs Constitution. That leaves Strength (so they aren't going to be doing a lot of damage when they do hit) and Wisdom (luckily, they do have good Will Saves) as dump stats. With sneak attack, the rogue is a better melee combatant, without it, it's a toss-up. So that means the bard is only better in combat than the sorcerer or the wizard.

The bard IS a decent backup skill monkey. At 6+Int for skills, only the rogue is better, and the bard has bardic knowledge for an added bonus. In non-combat situations, the bard can be actually quite useful, doubly-so if the rogue has a less than stellar reputation.

In spells, the bard suffers from both a lack of power and a lack of specialization. The bard starts with 0th-level spells, gaining 1st-level spells at 2nd level and then advancing up to 6th-level spells at 16th level. So the bard is always behind a primary spellcaster. The bard spells, however, focus mostly on enchantment and illusions, with a bit of healing. Illusions and enchantments can misdirect and mislead a monster, but level-appropriate encounters, or worse, boss-monsters, will be difficult to let the bard be the obvious deciding factor. In short, the bard is a support role - buffing up the other characters, healing them if necessary, maybe misdirecting or otherwise throwing off the antagonists, which ends up either giving the rest of the party an edge in combat or costing the "bad guys" their edge.

3) Conclusion - From a mechanical viewpoint, the bard isn't a bad character, although aside from social situations, it rarely shines. Its role as support means that the rest of the group will perform adequately without it, but will not lose a tactical advantage. In a group of five (fighter, cleric, wizard, rogue, bard), the loss of any one of the other five can seriously hamper the party's chance of success (until you get to the higher levels, of course, then the fighter and the rogue become less useful while the cleric and the wizard are able to do the most).

In combination with the bard's role of support, the flavor of the bard can seem to many (such as the OP's friends) to be distracting and less than optimal. On a personal note, having played bards, played in groups with bards, and played without bards, I find I enjoy the game more without the bard at all, but that if someone wants to play a bard and have fun with it, more power to them.

[AstralFire]

I think it's the lack of specialization thing in Core. And I don't mean power wise, as they handle well enough compared to say, Fighters. It's that nothing they do seems really cool mechanically, in Core.

[Oslecamo]

The concept itself. It's a guy specialized in singing for Gygax sake! Sure some people may be into it, but for most other people, a bard in the middle of the pointy stick and pure magic wielders is pretty much a joke.

[The Glyphstone]

The concept itself. It's a guy specialized in singing for Gygax sake! Sure some people may be into it, but for most other people, a bard in the middle of the pointy stick and pure magic wielders is pretty much a joke.

Considering Perform can be literally anything, that's a fairly minor complaint. You can have Perform (Sing), sure. Or you can be a Dwarf/Orc with Perform (War Drums), and beat people to death with your light maces drumsticks.* Or you can be a 'Go Not Gently Into That Dark Night' type with Perform: (Oratory).

*You won't be terribly effective, particularly in core, but it's an option, and a much more logical one than the singing dandy with the lute running around a battlefield.

Or you can take ranks in Perform (Redneck Joke)...

[AmberVael]

Personal opinion - As a concept, bards don't seem to fit well.
It is my opinion that bards do not fit in well because people have very little idea of how to flavor them (as you proved in your following paragraph.) This is not the fault of the people, but I don't think the bard can really be blamed either.


Yes, the bard, the actual Celtic or Greek bard (and probably lots of others) was a special individual in society, but he was definitely not a hero. He sang about the heroes, he passed on information and stories. He was about the equal of today's rockstar.
Orpheus.
Taliesin.
Merlin was also depicted as a bard in some tales.
Those are a few examples of heroic or at least epic bardic figures.

A bard is not a traditional hero, no. But if you say that, you must also point out the cleric, the druid, and even the wizard and sorcerer. The latter two are more often shown than the former two, perhaps, but even then they are more likely to show up as an antagonist or helper instead of a hero.

It may be more difficult to make a bardic character who doesn't just seem silly like Elan, but I do think it can be done, and done both in a fascinating and heroic manner.

[erikun]

I think the biggest problem is:

They can't cast spells as well as a sorcerer.
They can't buff as well as a cleric/druid.
They can't deal raw damage as well as a fighter/barbarian.
They can't deal extra (ie. sneak attack) damage like a rogue.

As others have said, support outside the core rules gives the bard a lot of versitality. However, inside core, the bard finds itself overshadowed by every other class.

Of course, if you're playing by houserules which disallow sorcerers/wizards or clerics/druids, then you'll find the bard's magical abilities invaluable. A lot of the overpowered/ underpowered comments are in comparison to other classes.

[Oslecamo]

Considering Perform can be literally anything, that's a fairly minor complaint. You can have Perform (Sing), sure. Or you can be a Dwarf/Orc with Perform (War Drums), and beat people to death with your light maces drumsticks.* Or you can be a 'Go Not Gently Into That Dark Night' type with Perform: (Oratory).


The name of the class is "bard". Bard in like the guy who sings. Of course you can twist the concept of the class untill kingdom come, and I could make my wizard write his spell in blood over a giant sword instead of a spellbook, or I could refluff the barbarian into some crazy kung gu specialist instead of savage warrior, but there's still some dude with a tiny weenie rapier and a lute in the PHB, and his main ability is still called "bardic song". That alone makes new players quickly skip to the next page, and therefore keep skipping said page during all their gaming life.

[Captain Alien]

By the way, there is a bard prestige class in Libris Mortis that gives you some cool songs. Is this class worth the five levels?

Also, there is a specification about instruments in Song and Silence that gives something nice to every instrument: Lutes let the bard use TWO songs at the same time. Anyway, this rule does not appear in any 3.5 book. Is it too powerful? In 3e they were a worse class.

[TheOOB]

Bards are spellcasters, which means they are better then non spellcasters.

Bards are not full spellcasters, which means they are worse then full spellcasters. That's pretty much how things work in D&D 3.x.

[arguskos]

By the way, there is a bard prestige class in Libris Mortis that gives you some cool songs. Is this class worth the five levels?

Also, there is a specification about instruments in Song and Silence that gives something nice to every instrument: Lutes let the bard use TWO songs at the same time. Anyway, this rule does not appear in any 3.5 book. Is it too powerful? In 3e they were a worse class.
1. The Dirgesinger seems like a decent PrC. There are better bard ones, but it seems alright.

2. Uh... I'm not sure I'd allow such specializations, but I'd need to see them to make a sound judgment. It could be very cool though.

[The Glyphstone]

The name of the class is "bard". Bard in like the guy who sings. Of course you can twist the concept of the class untill kingdom come, and I could make my wizard write his spell in blood over a giant sword instead of a spellbook, or I could refluff the barbarian into some crazy kung gu specialist instead of savage warrior, but there's still some dude with a tiny weenie rapier and a lute in the PHB, and his main ability is still called "bardic song". That alone makes new players quickly skip to the next page, and therefore keep skipping said page during all their gaming life.

Bardic Music, actually, if we're going to follow the book word-for-word. There's plenty of types of music besides singing. The only ability that's called anything about a song is Countersong, which is horrid. The text of the bardic music ability even mentions 'song or poetics'.

Even if you hamstring yourself to exactly what the (often atrocious) artwork in the PHB depicts, which isn't even fluff or rules, "Music Soothes The Savage Beast" is a classical fantasy trope, as evidenced by Harry Potter ripping it off, so the "bard' with the enchanted lyre/lute that lulls his foes to helpless sleep instead of stabbing them is pefectly viable as an archetype. Without that picture, there's no evidence at all of what type of music said Bard is employing to utilize his abilities. If we do use the pictures as evidence, what happens when a player wants to play a trained warrior with an sword or a polearm? The Fighter picture shows a Axe, therefore a fighter with a Halberd would be 'twisting the concept to kingdom come'?

[Ehra]

1) Personal opinion - As a concept, bards don't seem to fit well. As Elan said, they sing at their enemies, for Pete's sake! It is kind of a silly class. Look at movies to get an idea of what I'm talking about - Matrix has a feel of Monk, or Fighter, or Sorcerer to it. Mission: Impossible has a lot of Rogue to it. Dragonheart has Fighter, maybe even Paladin to it. Harry Potter has lots of Wizard to it. I'm sure you can look around and find a few movies that have a feel of Cleric to it, especially it if involves horror movies with demons or ghosts or vampires. There is something cool about swords slashing, fists flying, and horribly flashy magic crackling off the fingertips of the heroes (or villains).

But bards?

They're the frickin' score! They're the music! Sure, a good movie has good music to it, but putting the music as one of the protagonists in the movie?!? And the villain decides to take a swing at him (or her) instead of the hulking barbarian swinging the huge axe?? That's like Spaceballs and Dark Helmet taking out the cameraman!

Yes, the bard, the actual Celtic or Greek bard (and probably lots of others) was a special individual in society, but he was definitely not a hero. He sang about the heroes, he passed on information and stories. He was about the equal of today's rockstar.

Just because it's music doesn't mean it can't be magical in a world where magic exists. Heck, according to The Silmarillion I believe Middle Earth is the result of a ridiculously awesome song. I honestly can not see how it's any more silly than rubbing some sulfur and bat dung in your hand and ending up with a fireball.

[T.G. Oskar]

1. The Dirgesinger seems like a decent PrC. There are better bard ones, but it seems alright.

I'd say otherwise. It's not very good, at least not a concept I'd work with. It does not allow spellcasting progression (which is quite decent despite spoken otherwise), Song of Sorrow is a non-progressing reversed Inspire Courage (it would have been brutal if it stacked like Inspire Courage), Song of Bolstering is horrible if there's no undead around (or Clerics to turn, which should tell you how terrible is this song), and Song of Awakening is essentially a souped-up Animate Dead spell-like song which has a time limit, but that allows for a more reasonable undead (retains supernatural abilities and class features), but requires a fresh corpse for it. Which means, essentially it'll end requiring the corpse of your fallen ally, or a pretty strong enemy around.

Song of Grief and Song of Horror are decent (the DC scales, which makes it worthwhile as it ends up at a DC 33 on level 20, and scales off proportion afterwards), but eventually immunity to mind-affecting and ability damage kill off the potential of these abilities. It ends up crippling your buffing talents to grant you de-buffing talents which eventually die out after reaching the necessary levels.

As often pointed, Sublime Chord and Virtuoso are the prestige classes that most, if not all, Bards should consider. Sublime Chord grants 9th level spellcasting progression which makes the Bard a full spellcaster and grants near-full access to the sorcerer/wizard list for activation of magic items (which means a slight advantage compared to a pure Rogue on that one), and Virtuoso has the double virtue (pun intended) of 9/10ths spellcasting increase and better abilities while still increasing your Inspire Courage bonus.

I'd also add, although not always preferred, the Lyric Thaumaturge. It's a class meant for a bard, which expands the spell list and spell potential of a bard in a very limited way, while losing only a little of a full bard progression. It doesn't progress your Inspire Courage or Bardic Music progressions, though it's a boon for the few attack spells of the Bard (the 5th level ability boosts all spells with the Sonic descriptor by adding 1d6/spell level extra Sonic damage, which makes Shout a decent burst attack and the "add Sonic damage to weapon" buffing spells pretty brutal)

Aside from that, PrCs aren't very forgiving to Bards. War Chanter makes the Bard a better warrior but that's kinda counter-productive, Seeker of the Song enhances your songs with reversible spells that either buff or attack (but no spellcasting progression, tho; nor Bardic Music progression either) Other PrCs are either too limited on scope, or barely recognizable. If you have the Book of Exalted Deeds and are playing a really Exalted Bard, Troubadour of Stars is pretty strong since that means you're probably having Words of Creation, which is insanely awesome on a Bard.

Also, in the area of specialization...if D&D prices specialization so much, why the Big 6 can dabble in nearly everything and be better than a specialist with minimal effort? This is probably what you might be looking for; Bard isn't much of a jack of all trades as a Wizard/Cleric/Druid/Psion/Archivist/Erudite (and at times Artificer as well). It's mostly a question of looking at it from a very different point. Nobody likes to be the buffer and healer that can't contribute in the battle; at least the part of buffing and defending aid a bit.

As for the "music soothing the savage beast", the closest thing to that (Fascinate) doesn't work while on a battle. Plus, the designers went trigger happy on the immunity to mind-affecting property, and only an Epic Bard comes close to breaching that immunity. You'd need to be Orpheus or something to really make Enchanting brutally worthwhile. Bard loses a lot in having a lot of specialization on Enchanting spells and mind-affecting Illusions, while not grabbing enough defensive illusions and buffing Transmutation spells which would have made the class much better.

I still stand in that the Bard can be effective in Core. Not incredibly effective, but still reasonably effective in Core without feeling left behind. It's not like the Fighter who gets killed when it loses its magic weapon, or the Monk.

[Mavian]

By the way, there is a bard prestige class in Libris Mortis that gives you some cool songs. Is this class worth the five levels?

Also, there is a specification about instruments in Song and Silence that gives something nice to every instrument: Lutes let the bard use TWO songs at the same time. Anyway, this rule does not appear in any 3.5 book. Is it too powerful? In 3e they were a worse class.

Actually Complete Adventurer has some masterwork instruments that grant various bonuses, Drums give more damage, but lower the saves against fear etc.

[arguskos]

I'd say otherwise. It's not very good, at least not a concept I'd work with. It does not allow spellcasting progression (which is quite decent despite spoken otherwise), Song of Sorrow is a non-progressing reversed Inspire Courage (it would have been brutal if it stacked like Inspire Courage), Song of Bolstering is horrible if there's no undead around (or Clerics to turn, which should tell you how terrible is this song), and Song of Awakening is essentially a souped-up Animate Dead spell-like song which has a time limit, but that allows for a more reasonable undead (retains supernatural abilities and class features), but requires a fresh corpse for it. Which means, essentially it'll end requiring the corpse of your fallen ally, or a pretty strong enemy around.

Song of Grief and Song of Horror are decent (the DC scales, which makes it worthwhile as it ends up at a DC 33 on level 20, and scales off proportion afterwards), but eventually immunity to mind-affecting and ability damage kill off the potential of these abilities. It ends up crippling your buffing talents to grant you de-buffing talents which eventually die out after reaching the necessary levels.
I think that it's only issue is that Dirgesinger doesn't progress casting. The songs are all decent, some all the time, some situationally, and Song of Awakening is pretty solid. I think it's a flavorful choice, a mechanically sound choice, just not something excellent. I'd rank it a +0 PrC, good, but not amazing.

[Talon Sky]

From a role-play perspective, the bard shines. That's more what the class was meant to be: back-up support for any other character, able to fill any needed role (even if it's not as good as the specialist), and dominating the RP encounters. There's nothing like the feeling of turning a formerly-hostile NPC friendly in a round or two, or defusing a potentially party-KO in a way no other character could. Well, a sorcerer or other high-charisma character could, but they'd more then likely just start blasting fireballs about ;p

[arkol]

stick with the core rules so just the PHB classes


If this is completly true then it means you have acess to the esiest way abuse a bard: diplomacy

Let's say you get a 16 charisma. That's a +3 modifier. By level three you can get 6 ranks in it. Plus +6 from all the synergys in bluff, knowledge nobility and royalty and sense motive (and what do you know? they're all class skills for bards). Then let's say you're an half elf for that extra +2 and you pick skill focus diplomacy and negotiatior as your first and third level feats.

You now have a modifier of 22 in diplomacy. That means you only need to roll a 3 to make enemys indifferent to you (so now they don't want to hurt you anymore). With a couple more levels and ranks, and magic items boosting cha and all that you can even start making allys out of enemys.

Of course this is the reason why hardly any DM actually uses RAW for diplomacy. It just doesn't work.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

The name of the class is "bard". Bard in like the guy who sings.
Bards also play instruments.


but there's still some dude with a tiny weenie rapier and a lute in the PHB, and his main ability is still called "bardic song".

It's actually called "Bardic Music".

[Dhavaer]

From a role-play perspective, the bard shines. That's more what the class was meant to be: back-up support for any other character, able to fill any needed role (even if it's not as good as the specialist), and dominating the RP encounters. There's nothing like the feeling of turning a formerly-hostile NPC friendly in a round or two, or defusing a potentially party-KO in a way no other character could. Well, a sorcerer or other high-charisma character could, but they'd more then likely just start blasting fireballs about ;p

I think you mean social encounters. Role-play encounters have nothing to do with class, they're entirely dependant on the player.

[Olo Demonsbane]

Maybe we need to do a "Bardening" or something in the test of spite...Play through some encounters without a Bard, and then play through the same ones WITH a bard, and see the difference :smallsmile:

[Sstoopidtallkid]

For those who can't accept a musical hero, go back to Greek myth. Hermes repeatedly was able to use music to great effect, including puting an ever-vigilant watchman to sleep. Orpheus was able to get from the mortal world to hell and back due to music, and would have been able to bring his wife back from the dead if he hadn't messed up at the very end.

And yes, the class core-only is rough. Non-core, you can get a large number of things to either make yourself effective, or to make everyone in the general area awesome. Core-only, you're best off being careful with spell and skill selection to cover things that the rest of the party isn't covering, and just not being as effective as them individually.

[Trizap]

Maybe we need to do a "Bardening" or something in the test of spite...Play through some encounters without a Bard, and then play through the same ones WITH a bard, and see the difference :smallsmile:

yes, I think the scientific approach will be needed here.

that and has anyone ever thought of just homebrewing a bard class? make a bard that they would like? if you think they suck so much, make your own :smallsmile:

[ShneekeyTheLost]

For an idea of how to properly use a Bard, check out the link in my sig about the Joker Bard. Most of the tricks I played with him are Core, although the race and a couple of feats to avoid detection are not. However, since he's not a BBEG, but a PC, he doesn't need those as badly.

Bards do not do hundreds of damage in a round. They do not tell the laws of reality to sit down and shut up. They are not as powerful as an optimized Batman Wizard or CoDzilla. However, they have strengths all of their own.

Consider if you will: The Joker turned Harvey Dent into Two Face with a single Bluff check and a Bardic Music Suggestion and ten minutes of roleplay. The bard doesn't hit people with weapons, he doesn't do game-breaking magic, but he CAN be "Mr. I KNOW WHAT THAT IS", and he CAN literally create cults of followers.

Look at the rules for Diplomacy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/diplomacy.htm). Those are flat DC's to turn people into allies quickly. Now look up what you can do with Bluff (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/bluff.htm). Then look at what the spell Glibness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/glibness.htm) does. Yes, my friends, you really CAN make someone want to change their alignment. It's that easy.

You want to hurt the BBEG? Head to the biggest, nastiest, most powerful group of idologically blinded morons (i.e. start with the Temples of Heironous) and convince them that the BBEG is actively working against them. Now go on to say how you are trying to stop this meanie-head, and will help the church in this regard. Now you've got a source of divine items, including being able to set up 'if we die, please rez us, and we'll pay you back for the diamonds and caster fees when we are alive again' contingency plans. They will also be actively looking to hunt this guy down. Now you've started hurting the BBEG's maneuverability. You've also got a very powerful ally against him.

In combat? A Bard is not the most powerful character. Outside of combat, with a bit of cleverness? He could well BE the most powerful character in any non-combat RP environment.

Also, I have made a re-write of the Bard, using the Warlock's Invocation system. Instead of EB, he gets Bardic Music bonuses, which can also be used as penalties applied to opponents as a sonic mind-affecting ability. Haste and Slow are two of the spell-like abilities they can get starting at 6th level.

[ericgrau]

It's not so much that bard suck as skill/tricky classes in general suck because people tend to ignore their abilities completely. I mean rogues, rangers, bards, monks. The first two gain popularity from coolness factor, but in fact also suck in most games because skills and special abilities are usually disregarded in favor of beating things with a stick.

With core bards in particular people tend to use them to sing and melee, which they are lousy at. These are secondary roles if anything. They are in fact caster-skillmonkeys. Unlike other half-casters they get full caster level which works well with a lot of low level batman spells: if a batman wizard can join a campaign at a lower level than the party and still shine, why can't a bard do the same at equal level to the party, with the same spells? Because he's too busy singing. Or he's busy laying down stat buffs for some odd reason, which is a lousy idea even on a full caster. So why do it with a bard?

Instead of trying what he can do partially, try what he can do fully. He's a full skillmonkey, for at least 6 + int skills. He can batman low level spells as well as a full caster. He can lay down songs/magic buffs during the pre-combat buffing round, when it ought to be done, as well as a full caster can. Most songs require a standard action to start but can continue for a certian number of rounds without costing any actions. He can craft magic items as well as a full caster. He can trip, from safe whip range no less, almost as well as a full fighter. He can also disarm carried items (but not weapons) from whip range simply because this is an easy check. He can use healing wands between combat as well as a full cleric, and still has full caster level on certain lower level but still useful heals like mass cure light wounds. He can use status-effect removing scrolls as well as a full cleric. Or spells, if desired, but I prefer scrolls for these regardless of class. So if you can manage to fill all your rounds with things the bard can do that other characters also like to do, he will be just as effective as these other characters. But more versatile.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Bards also get UMD, so they can wand things.

Something to keep in mind, as UMD is very powerful if you can do it well.

[HamHam]

Bards are pretty broken actually, for one reason:

Fascinate has you make a Perform check to set the DC for the save.

Which is basically the equivalent of saying that nothing will save against your Fascinate ever.

And then you either have the party just cart out the dragon's entire horde while you keep it busy, or just keep using Suggestion until it fails a save and tell it to do something suicidal (but that doesn't appear to be that way). Like choose to fail it's next save because the nice Cleric is going to give it a buff spell.

[Draz74]

Which is basically the equivalent of saying that nothing will save against your Fascinate ever, except for the things that are immune to Mind-Affecting, such as Undead, Constructs, Mind-Blanked NPCs, and so forth.

Fixed that for you.

Also, Fascinate can't be used anytime combat has already started. That's the real thing that keeps it from being broken. You're right, though, that it's fairly powerful because of its save DC.

[FMArthur]

Wow, I guess a whole lot of old stories are just as stupid as D&D for having ridiculous musical fools hang around important adventurers on serious business.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Bards are not a brute-force class. You cannot simply use the same tactics that you would with, say, a finesse fighter or a caster, and expect them to work. It takes more effort to get the most out of a Bard, but I think it's worth it.

[HamHam]

Fixed that for you.

Also, Fascinate can't be used anytime combat has already started. That's the real thing that keeps it from being broken. You're right, though, that it's fairly powerful because of its save DC.

"We surrender!"

"Now just stand there and listen to my awesome story while the rest of my party un-surrenders and takes all your stuff."

"That's a good monster."

[Theres]

from the roleplaying point of view a bard is naturally more fun i can say so honestly. and the whole go into dungeons and singing at big monsters shtick is annoying as the fact that you can rename an ability if its cool with your DM and the preform skill covers numerous topics. i chose oratory- epics so when i go clean out a den of evil criminals i recite stories of the ultimate beings of law and evil :smallcool:( to freak them out) then clobber them with my heavy mace. then the rest of the party spills in and slaughters them. since they all have crapshoot wisdom and no ranks in spot worth mentioning i notice the stolen orders and missing money spread throughout. if i go non core i could effectively become the main damage dealer in the posses

[Autopsibiofeeder]

For what it is worth, I think bards make very nice characters and effective too.

It depends a lot on the context of the campaign, though. If your party is made of a mean charge-type fighter, a rogue equipped with more wands than he has hitpoints, a priest with divine metamagic and a load of nightsticks and a wizard preparing to become incantatrix you will feel lacking in the end. If all your group does is slay monsters you may end up feeling lacking as well.

If your group, like mine, has cut away the severest of cheese and has a mix of social-roleplaying encounters and dungeoncrashing bards start to do well, in my experience.

For a world-smashing extremely powerful character, don't pick a bard. For a nice allround character everybody likes and trusts with a multitude of tasks that, in the end, has those world-smashing characters do his bidding, pick a bard ;) .

[Oslecamo]

For those who can't accept a musical hero, go back to Greek myth. Hermes repeatedly was able to use music to great effect, including puting an ever-vigilant watchman to sleep. Orpheus was able to get from the mortal world to hell and back due to music, and would have been able to bring his wife back from the dead if he hadn't messed up at the very end.


Personally, I think those characters make Paris of Troy look like one of the bravest and most heroic legend of ancient greek story.

[T.G. Oskar]

Personally, I think those characters make Paris of Troy look like one of the bravest and most heroic legend of ancient greek story.

Then again, old stories place a druid, one of D&D's Big Six, as an advisor to a melee warrior, and practically never shows him unleashing the fury of the elements. Only aging backwards, which barely is a feat comparable to turning into an army of animals and unleashing the massacre.

Also, consider that he was tricked by an enchantress.

Yep, the greatest druid/wizard in the world tricked by an enchantress.

So I don't see your logic.

And I am surprised that he is also placed as a bard on some stories, as mentioned otherwise.


If this is completly true then it means you have acess to the esiest way abuse a bard: diplomacy

Recall that the rules for Diplomacy require 10 consecutive full round actions. And that the penalty for using Diplomacy in a rush is -10, which hurts when it's needed the most. And finally, the only effect that actually has no mind-affecting clause is turning them to helpful, which is the rough equivalent of a charm person spell.

Not that I say Diplomancy is not awesome (the fact that you're pretty much using a charm monster without spending a spell and/or being affected by immunity to mind-affecting must count), but it isn't just as potent in Core as it is out-of-Core. You need to invest a lot to get a good Diplomacy score to get around your needs.

Which, coincidentally, is one of the strong points of the Bard. They can afford that, since they probably won't get the Charm and Dominate spells on their list; they can Diplomacy the effects out anyways.


Maybe we need to do a "Bardening" or something in the test of spite...Play through some encounters without a Bard, and then play through the same ones WITH a bard, and see the difference

The main difference being that a Bard makes the melee classes shine. Never face a Bard alone with a melee class, even at first level (unless you can cook up a really nasty thing to allow a solo Bard to fight well), but in a party, they shine.

What I'd point out, though, is that most people ignore the benefits of the late-game songs (Inspire Greatness, Inspire Heroics). Few class abilities grant dodge bonuses to other people (the kind of bonuses that by rule always stack with the same bonus), or morale bonuses to all saving throws (and a +4 to saving throws isn't anything to sneer at, it's roughly a 20% to resist effects). The problem lies in that most bard players shift out roughly around level 10, which is when they get their first 4th level spells (or even earlier) for a Sublime Chord build. Not that I say that any choice is bad, but most people don't know that the end-game Bardic Music feats are equally as potent as Inspire Courage; most designers made the Bard behave a lot like the Paladin since most of the bonuses for Bardic Music affect only Inspire Courage, which makes it a bit front-loaded.

Unless you apply Words of Creation, in which you have the bonuses doubled. Which, again, aids the Batman Wizard because you're playing with stacking bonuses, which can make or break a game very easily.

As a final point, noticed that all of the Bardic Music buff songs (not to mention the other non-buff songs already noted as such) are mind-affecting? Perhaps immunity to mind-affecting isn't much of a boon when you want stacking bonuses.


Bards do not do hundreds of damage in a round. They do not tell the laws of reality to sit down and shut up. They are not as powerful as an optimized Batman Wizard or CoDzilla. However, they have strengths all of their own.


Bards are not a brute-force class. You cannot simply use the same tactics that you would with, say, a finesse fighter or a caster, and expect them to work. It takes more effort to get the most out of a Bard, but I think it's worth it.

This, I believe, is the problem with people who play Bards. They don't play with them out of the box.

Think about it; the Image spells are considered some of the strong spells of a non-Shadowgnome Illusionist, because of the ability to work them in a variety of different situations. The Image spells are pretty rough in the case of how difficult it is to make full use of them, but there are several guides out there on why Illusionists are awesome because of them. And to use them properly, you need a bit of extraordinary thinking.

Bards are similar. You can't expect to be a replacement most of the time. But, with some effort, you can do great things for your party. They also serve as good BBEG, specifically when they have no protection from mind-affecting.


It depends a lot on the context of the campaign, though. If your party is made of a mean charge-type fighter, a rogue equipped with more wands than he has hitpoints, a priest with divine metamagic and a load of nightsticks and a wizard preparing to become incantatrix you will feel lacking in the end.

The fighter will appreciate having extra hit and damage, since for a fighter every bonus counts. The rogue will appreciate that added bonus to its attack, because that means its ranged touch attacks are more effective. The cleric will appreciate that you took the healing position from it, and also the bonus to attack and saves adding to its already permanent buffs. And the wizard will thank you for relieving it of some of the duties of buffing, since that means it'll be capable of preparing some of the other utility 3rd level spells and furthermore because of it.

And, if you're already out of core, what you're doing without Inspirational Boost/Song of the Heart/Snowflake Wardance/Words of Creation/Badge of Valor/Dragonfire Inspiration builds? It's saying "if Ubercharger, UMD Rogue, Clericzilla and Batman Wizard are in the party, then Bard-out-of-the-box is going to fail". Well duh!! You're pitting it against the optimized builds, you need to do the same. Sublime Chords and Epic Inspiration builds should already be on the line on that party, not Bards out of the box.

Now, say the same about a Fighter, a Rogue, a Cleric, and a Wizard out of the box. The Fighter will appreciate the bonus to attack even more, the Rogue will appreciate the UMDing even more, the Cleric will hate that you're taking its position, and the Wizard will sneer at you no matter what but it'll appreciate that you're making his orbs and Disintegrate rays hit better.

[Yrcrazypa]

Those who say that bards don't fit are missing something. For a very, very, long time, until recently, actually, armies have had some form of musician with them. They have had many uses throughout history; war drums can be used to keep people in time, and can be used to signal certain attacks MUCH better than verbal commands can. They can be used to demoralize the enemy, to boost the morale of your own army/group, among other things that I can't think of right now.

This is ignoring the fact that in a fantasy world, music has magical power. Giving the entire group bonuses to dodge, skill checks, saving throws, or attack bonuses is incredibly useful, more so than people are giving credit for. Since they can do almost anything anyone else can do, they can relieve the stress that is put on the cleric, wizard, and rogue, which is very useful.

There are many more reasons that bards can be excellent, but I'm not as avid a D&D player, and others have covered it better than I have.

[Talon Sky]

For a world-smashing extremely powerful character, don't pick a bard. For a nice allround character everybody likes and trusts with a multitude of tasks that, in the end, has those world-smashing characters do his bidding, pick a bard ;) .

Would you care if I put that in my sig?


I think you mean social encounters. Role-play encounters have nothing to do with class, they're entirely dependant on the player.

You're splitting hairs. Yes, I did mean social encounters, but everyone else managed to understand what I said ;p And I'm sorry, I understand that RP encounters are dependant on the individual players, but their characters/abilities will come into play at some point. Want to make a hostile king your ally, and convince him to send in his powerful army to engage the main enemy's? You don't send in the barbarian to talk to him, you send in the bard.

No, they're not going to dominate in combat, at least not in-Core only. But in any situation that can be solved by any other means then, "I swing my sword at it," the bard can do wonderfully.

If, as you pointed out, he or she's in the hands of a player that actually knows how to RP a bard :D

[Kyeudo]

I'm not really sure why either, but then again, I'm not sure about half the things people think concerning D&D (like why so many people think monks suck, but that's getting off topic).

The reason the Monk sucks is his class features work against each other, he doesn't get enough BAB or damage to do any real damage in combat, and has too low of an AC and hitpoints to serve as a main tank. Also, he's as MAD as a Paladin or worse. Past a 2 level dip, the Monk just isn't worth it.

The Bard, on the otherhand, isn't that bad. He's not a squishy caster, since he has some armor and decent hit points, has an okay spell list, has a nice skill list, and has a decent base attack bonus. His class features don't work against each other, and even in core no one can really beat the bard as a diplomancer. Once you get outside of core, as everyone has pointed out, Bards become gods. I've seen a full party of 4 designed around the bard, with every class roll filled with bards or multiclass bards.

[GreatWyrmGold]

I'm not really sure why either, but then again, I'm not sure about half the things people think concerning D&D (like why so many people think monks suck, but that's getting off topic). The only reason I could think of is because they don't really specialize in anything, but they are fun to roleplay.

I wondered why monks "suck", too. Apparently part of it has to dowith MAD. Another part is that they don't have a role in the party.

I'm getting off track. People think bards are weak A.) because they generalise, with a bit of fighting, a bit of healing, a bit of stealth, etc; B.) they're a support class, which makes people dislike it when they play one, which makes them think it's weak; and C.) As Elan put it, "You walk into dungeons and SING at people. Who could take that seriously?" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0128.html)

[only1doug]

I wondered why monks "suck", too. Apparently part of it has to dowith MAD. Another part is that they don't have a role in the party.



The reason the Monk sucks is his class features work against each other, he doesn't get enough BAB or damage to do any real damage in combat, and has too low of an AC and hitpoints to serve as a main tank. Also, he's as MAD as a Paladin or worse. Past a 2 level dip, the Monk just isn't worth it.


Please lets not turn this into this weeks monk thread, if you want a monk thread dig up the last one (unless its going to be thread necromancy) or make a new one.

[Oslecamo]

Then again, old stories place a druid, one of D&D's Big Six, as an advisor to a melee warrior, and practically never shows him unleashing the fury of the elements. Only aging backwards, which barely is a feat comparable to turning into an army of animals and unleashing the massacre.

So let me see if I understand, you claim that Merlin's a druid, yet Merlin never uses any druidic abilities.

I have bad news for you: Merlin was a wizard pretending to be a druid.

And what you call "advisor", many other people would call "power behind the throne". Better to let the sword waving guy take the risks by exposing himself to danger than Merlin himself. He is a wizard after all, and wizards aren't really famous for liking to be in the frontline when they can have a charmed minion worck as bait.



Also, consider that he was tricked by an enchantress.

Yep, the greatest druid/wizard in the world tricked by an enchantress.

Because, hmm, that's what enchantresses are suposed to do? Manipulate the big guys because they aren't strong enough to take them head on?

Plus She was either a wizard or sorceror herself, so if anybody could trick Merlin, it would be her.



So I don't see your logic.


Neither do I see yours.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

It depends a lot on the context of the campaign, though. If your party is made of a mean charge-type fighter, a rogue equipped with more wands than he has hitpoints, a priest with divine metamagic and a load of nightsticks and a wizard preparing to become incantatrix you will feel lacking in the end. If all your group does is slay monsters you may end up feeling lacking as well.

The bard can do that too.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Personally, I think those characters make Paris of Troy look like one of the bravest and most heroic legend of ancient greek story.Up to you, I'm just saying that musicians have used their music to great effect in ancient legends, meaning there are Bards in fantasy besides D&D.

Besides, Hemes was awesome.

[Zaq]

I'm repeating what's already been said, but I think a big part of your problem is that you play core-only. Bards benefit more than most other classes from broadening your horizons. A core-only bard is roughly on the same power level as the CAdv. Ninja, I would say. Capable of a few tricks, but replaceable. It's outside of core that you get the awesome spells (sure, there are some good Bard spells in core, but there's a lot more outside of core, and it's all pretty much worth it), the crazy boosts to IC, and the fun unique weapons or items.

Bards really do get a lot of love in some of the mid-to-later splatbooks, though. They really do.

That said, once again I'm treading over already-covered ground, but core-only bards do have SOME options. UMD, as mentioned, can make or break a character, and a few of their spells can be very nasty (mostly the illusions, though some of the conjurations, such as grease or summon monster, are very much worth it). It also never hurts to have a knowledge-monkey around, which bards can do very well. You just have to remember that there's more to life than IC.

[Theres]

The last spartan effectively became a bard and told the story of how his king was killed alongside the rest of his compatriots. odysseys story would never be told without the help of a bard. and plus fighter typer characters in mythology always ended up corrupted or twisted by some petty caster. (crap will save) or the fighter (uber charger) ends up too deep in enemy lines and gets shot in the heel the only spot his crap druid mom wouldnt buff. there are flaws with all characters in D&D. level 20 godlike fighter left in a room full of rust monsters would kick his sorry tin man butt. level 20 wizard who gets stuck in a room with anti magic is soon to be rat food. rouge caught in a narrow hallow with two unflakanble constucts might as well call it game over. everything has flaws but people try to fix the simpler builds such as cleric fighter wizard and rouge while immediately calling some class with a little creativity stupid (monk and bard)

[Doc Roc]

Yeah, no, you're....

Okay, You know AMF is an emanation? Did you know that bards rely heavily on magic? Did you know many monk abilities are SU-type and get shut off in an AMF? No one's ever actually used rust monsters on me, probably because I am a huge fan of riverine weapons which don't exactly rust. :)


Much more importantly:

Did you know we're on your side, and you're now fighting shadows?
TL;DR:I quite like non-core bards.

Core bards are pretty gimped, frankly, at an empirical level. They can be played well, and produce excellent results, but mechanically speaking until you leave core, they are lackluster. Non-core offers some truly spectacular options ranging from bad-ass full casting to lightsabers to an OMINOUS HUM! that adds 21d6 damage to all attacks your allies make.

By law, I am not permitted to discuss monks in my current home city. I apologize.

[Trizap]

hmmmm.......maybe someone should make a comic where a bard is actually badass instead of spoony, who uses his abilities in a smart way that kicks ass and uses them to beat other classes?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

hmmmm.......maybe someone should make a comic where a bard is actually badass instead of spoony, who uses his abilities in a smart way that kicks ass and uses them to beat other classes?

would the campaign notes from the game I ran my Joker Bard as the BBEG count? He almost destroyed all of civilization by manipulating nation leaders into attacking and distrusting one another until almost no one was left...

[T.G. Oskar]

Yeah, no, you're....

Okay, You know AMF is an emanation? Did you know that bards rely heavily on magic? Did you know many monk abilities are SU-type and get shut off in an AMF? No one's ever actually used rust monsters on me, probably because I am a huge fan of riverine weapons which don't exactly rust. :)

I presume you meant most of the bard's abilities (or well, bardic music as well) is supernatural in origin.

Then again, while a Bard can at that moment barely duke it out, a Wizard under an AMF is effectively powerless, completely annihilated. Can't cast any spell, and the only effective way is essentially to use an instant conjuration effect to summon an object and throw it at that moment. But then again, why would you let the Wizard out if the one with the AMF is probably a grappler who's actually pinning the Wizard down?

At least the Bard has three melee attacks at 20th level and a good chance of hitting the three. Aside from doing Diplomacy checks which, oddly enough, aren't magical in origin...

Which means that, in a room with AMF, the Bard either fights for his sorry musician's meaty rear pillows, or Diplomancies the heck out of the way. Unless, of course, the monster isn't intelligent, which means you probably set the Bard a deathtrap. Then again, the Bard can probably survive better than a Wizard with a light crossbow (which, also to mention, a Bard can use?)

Unless of course, you mean a Wizard/Archmage who uses Mastery of Shaping by sacrificing a 6th level slot and then places an Antimagic Field upon itself, making the center of the emanation the only place where the AMF does not work, making anything sans a mere feat-powered charger the only thing that can hit it, since it breaks virtually anything aside from a Wildshaped Druid that can't do crud but has its Dire Animal Companion rampaging at once on the hapless, yet uber-buffed, Wizard; or the Barbarian who doesn't need a stinking magic weapon to unleash the fury.

Then again, AMF makes the Cleric of the Big Three eternally worthless, since it will have to rely on its non-existent buffs to deal damage.

TL;DR: AMF cripples the Bards, the Clerics, the Druids without an Animal Companion, and the Wizards, unless the Wizards cast it upon themselves while being Archmages.

Mostly, Core Bards aren't bad; they are just overshadowed by the Big Three. They can handle just a bit better than a Wizard when it loses all of its spells (if for some reason that were to happen), but the Wizard never has that chance; simply put, the Wizard (or the Cleric) will force the party to rest (aka, the 5-minute workday). However, they still fare better than a Core Fighter or Monk, who either have such bad Will saves that they end up vulnerable to enchantments, or who need even more workout to be worthwhile. Still, that doesn't mean they're worthless most of the time; they can use Charisma skills better than a Rogue does, if only because Bards favor Charisma.

As for a comic based off Bards...well, technically you'd be capable of using Nightman, but he doesn't use bardic music abilities (he's a singer, tho, which means ranks in Perform). Orpheus is the closest thing to a bard that can sing a deity into doing his will, which is pretty impressive nonetheless.

In any case, they can also do Summon Monster, which is something to bade their time in case they find themselves out of actions to do :P

[olentu]

Well not taking into account anything but the problem with shaping the field it was confirmed in the rules compendium an antimagic field does not block line of effect so shaping it around oneself does almost nothing to protect one from spells.

[holywhippet]

I personally like the bard as a class a lot. They really shine outside of combat when trying to talk to people or just plain knowing things. Not sure if that idol is drawn from a nutjob cultists imagination or if it actually represents a being of power? Call on the bard with his knowledge skills and skill points (assuming they were spent wisely) or just try a bardic knowledge check.

In combat they are not massive damage dealers as a rule, but they are every allies friend - bard song, healing spells, buffing spells and they can sing while attacking so they can use ranged/reach weapons. If your main healer is unable to provide healing or enough healing, the bard can use spells/scrolls/wands to help out. Since they cast like a sorcerer, they have great tactical versatility. Their limited spells known is kind of a weakness admittedly.

Their armour class can be pretty good depending on what you get access to. Since they can wear light armour without invoking arcane failure chances, just invest in a mithral breastplate when you can.

For attacking at low levels, consider a halfling bard - they get bonuses to thrown weapons so you can just load up on knives, darts and javelins.

[Signmaker]

Their limited spells known is kind of a weakness admittedly.

That's usually mitigated by well-applied usage of UMD, which bards can do relatively well.

[holywhippet]

That's usually mitigated by well-applied usage of UMD, which bards can do relatively well.

I don't mean the spell list per se. Provided they aren't trying to nuke stuff from orbit their spell list is pretty good. The main problem is, for example, that for most of their levels they can only know 4 different level 1 spells, but there are far more than 4 level one spells that they might like to be able cast at any given time. The same applies to pretty much all other spell levels. Arguably the sorcerer has a similar problem, but more sorcerers aren't focused on helping the party out as much.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

hmmmm.......maybe someone should make a comic where a bard is actually badass instead of spoony, who uses his abilities in a smart way that kicks ass and uses them to beat other classes?

There's one bard in Order of the Stick who's been doing a lot better recently.

[Doc Roc]

The same applies to pretty much all other spell levels. Arguably the sorcerer has a similar problem, but more sorcerers aren't focused on helping the party out as much.

A gross, unwelcome, and unwarranted generalization. What about BC sorcerers?

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Arguably the sorcerer has a similar problem, but more sorcerers aren't focused on helping the party out as much.
How is killing the enemy with MOAR DAKKA not helping the party?

[T.G. Oskar]

A gross, unwelcome, and unwarranted generalization. What about BC sorcerers?

Good point to add.

Sorcerers, because of their limitation on spells known, must carefully choose which spell to learn (and also which spell to change when they have the chance) in order to have maximum effectiveness. From all of the spells a Sorcerer has, only a few merit being on its personal list of spells, those who have a chance to work on multiple moments. Fly, for example, is a spell that has very, very, very high utility; however, it can be prepared just as well on a scroll or a wand. Invisibility, on the other hand, is a spell a Sorcerer will most definitely choose because of how utterly effective it is. It's not just a simple infiltration spell; it's a defensive spell, it's an offensive spell (because it grants a denial to its opponent's Dex bonus to AC), it's one of the best and cheapest utility spells. A Sorcerer may think on choosing Invisibility first and Fly perhaps later on. A Sorcerer, on the other hand, will not choose Fireball simply because it's a combat spell which has way too much variables to be effective.

Bards, being spontaneous spellcasters, need to think carefully their list of spells. Should they go for the Cure X Wounds spell, or for the Wand of Cure X Wounds spell? Should they go for Greater Invisibility, or Dominate Person? A smart choice of spells makes the Bard much better at its job. What defeats the Bard is the small choice upon it's entire list; the problem a Warmage has. Even though the Warmage has all spells on its spell list known, the spells on its list aren't the most effective ones (save one or two). A Sorcerer, with less spells known, can be far more effective at the Warmage's job than the class itself.

The interesting point is when the Bard is contrasted with the only class that resembles it: the Beguiler. The Beguiler doesn't have a growing spell list as the Bard does, aside from a few bits of Advanced Learning. However, a Beguiler has virtually all of the effective Illusion and Enchantment spells, which make the Beguiler better at the job of spellcasting than a Bard does, since it has pretty much all Bard spells sans the sonic attacks and the healing spells but with the chance to get 9th level spells.

That doesn't mean the Bard is bad, though. By judicious choosing of spells, a Bard can actually become better than a Beguiler on its own field, if only because it has a better chance to choose the spells that are actually worthwhile instead of having a handful of spells that actually work and can be cast all time while having a bunch of situational others best left for a wand or scroll. Couple with the class features and whatnot, and a Bard can definitely stand up to a Beguiler; at least, until the Beguiler shows off its 7th, 8th, and 9th spells. Then again, when a Bard goes Sublime Chord, the Beguiler laments not having as useful spells as a Bard can possibly have.

Evensomore, the fact that you have access to the Sorcerer's spell list as a Sublime Chord or through Sorcerer itself, means you have access to virtually all of the same spells a Wizard has, but without the need for a UMD check. In that case, Sorcerer trumps both Bard and Rogue, but Bard trumps Rogue in the few spells it can cast from a wand, scroll or staff without needing the check.

[mabriss lethe]

My group had a distinct hatred for bards...

HAD.

Until I (the DM in this game) helped a new player build hers. They stopped laughing when they realized she contributed more damage to a fight than any two of the other three characters.... and then started casting spells....and was still the party face and a walking library of skills no one else bothered to take. Admittedly, I was putting together one of the better builds. (dragonfire inspiration, melodic casting, knowledge devotion, and snowflake wardance. Packed an echoblade and half of her spells known were drawn from spell compendium)

[Sstoopidtallkid]

I just had a thought. Everyone is focused on either non-core or helping the party to boost the Bard. What about core-only, solo? The Bard is one of the few core-only classes that can do anything. He can cast arcane, heal, skillmonkey, and doesn't die in melee. Yeah, he's no Druid, but compared to a Fighter solo, it's pretty nice.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Weapon Finesse, tripping and disarming with whips, and lots and lots of wands. Thats my answer.

[Trizap]

There's one bard in Order of the Stick who's been doing a lot better recently.

no hes only half-badass, half of him is still spoony.

I'm talking more about a Bard who is completely smart, completely competent, and is more like this guy who lures his enemies into a false sense of security because of his class then totally whups their ass by a combination of smarts, their magic, picking them off with a ranged weapon and goading the enemy into making stupid decisions with their skills of persuasion and such.

[Trizap]

would the campaign notes from the game I ran my Joker Bard as the BBEG count? He almost destroyed all of civilization by manipulating nation leaders into attacking and distrusting one another until almost no one was left...

yes, exactly what I'm talking about, easily an example why the Bard can be badass; he is not badass in the "destroy everyone with big weapon/magic sense" he can be badass in the "persuasive magnificent bastard" sense.

[holywhippet]

How is killing the enemy with MOAR DAKKA not helping the party?

When I say helping the party I mean things like buffing and healing. Blasting the enemy isn't so much helping the party as hurting the enemy. A bard is more likely to spend their turn casting something like heroism than the sorcerer is.

[cfalcon]

Well, the bard has a low hit die, and wants a bunch of good scores. If you are rolling for scores, or if you have a generous point buy, that might not be a bad thing (if you roll well of course). If you have a point buy that makes you do stuff pretty close to ideal (this is probably the standard), then you face the fact that you want basically all of the stats to some degree, as you are a "jack of all trades". But it's hard to be in melee without a good strength and a good constitution, and you can defend dexterity pretty easily as well. By the time the bard hits mid level, you'll probably be using your spells and your music, and sometimes a bow- very rarely will you actually be in melee, which was presumably one of the roles the class was designed to partake in sometimes.

I don't personally think that bards suck, and I'm glad you run with them to success.

[Jayngfet]

no hes only half-badass, half of him is still spoony.

I'm talking more about a Bard who is completely smart, completely competent, and is more like this guy who lures his enemies into a false sense of security because of his class then totally whups their ass by a combination of smarts, their magic, picking them off with a ranged weapon and goading the enemy into making stupid decisions with their skills of persuasion and such.

I had one of them once. He had a masterwork warhorn, extra music feat, a badge of valor, a wand of cure moderate wounds. We were going against undead. I hire out a couple of first level warriors. Suddenly zombies are dying left and right as hirelings are getting +6 to hit zombies on top of the other PC's attacks and their DEX bonuses, the rogue is dropping ghouls in one hit thanks to my wand, and the only real challange we faced was an entomber in full plate surrounded by about a half a dozen ghouls.

[Autopsibiofeeder]

By Me
It depends a lot on the context of the campaign, though. If your party is made of a mean charge-type fighter, a rogue equipped with more wands than he has hitpoints, a priest with divine metamagic and a load of nightsticks and a wizard preparing to become incantatrix you will feel lacking in the end.


By T.G. Oskar
The fighter will appreciate having extra hit and damage, since for a fighter every bonus counts. The rogue will appreciate that added bonus to its attack, because that means its ranged touch attacks are more effective. The cleric will appreciate that you took the healing position from it, and also the bonus to attack and saves adding to its already permanent buffs. And the wizard will thank you for relieving it of some of the duties of buffing, since that means it'll be capable of preparing some of the other utility 3rd level spells and furthermore because of it.

And, if you're already out of core, what you're doing without Inspirational Boost/Song of the Heart/Snowflake Wardance/Words of Creation/Badge of Valor/Dragonfire Inspiration builds? It's saying "if Ubercharger, UMD Rogue, Clericzilla and Batman Wizard are in the party, then Bard-out-of-the-box is going to fail". Well duh!! You're pitting it against the optimized builds, you need to do the same. Sublime Chords and Epic Inspiration builds should already be on the line on that party, not Bards out of the box.

If you put it like that, you are right: it is not fair to put the average bard in an optimized party. However, that was not my point. I am a big fan of bards and have played bards in various games, both enjoying myself and adding to the party, much in the way you describe. My point was that, with increasing optimization for the other partymembers, the need for your (bard) role becomes less and less, even if you optimize the bard well too. That is what I have experienced: with an increase in efficiency in their own fields, partymembers increase the gap the 'secondary / jack-of-all-trades' figure has to close while that figure has to increase its efficiency in several fields of expertise at once to keep up. A positive relation between the party optimizing on one hand and a bard thinking 'Mah, they can do without me' on the other.



Would you care if I put that in my sig?


That's ok :)



By me
...<snip> a rogue equipped with more wands than he has hitpoints <snip>...


By Pharaoh's Fist
The bard can do that too.

Aye, but it has more impact on a rogue than on a bard, in my opinion. When a bard knows 15 spells and both the bard and the rogue get 2 wands and 3 scrolls, a bard has access 20 magic tricks and the rogue 5, four times as much. Give them both 5 wands and 10 scrolls and it is 30 vs 15, two times as much. As such I feel it has more impact on rogues, in other words you are then trivializing one of the bard's strong points, i.e. magic.

[derfenrirwolv]

They have a good selection of weapons.. that can't hit thanks to their BAB.

They have save or suck spells... that have a Lower DC thanks to being a lower level spell

They have healing spells.... that don't heal what the level appropriate encounter will dish out in a round.

They have good skills.. but the rogue can make better use of them (find traps, bluff/blackstab)

Versatility is nice, but that's what your companions are for.

There's nothing wrong with playing though. Seriously, relax min maxers. The DM's job is to make the fights CHALLENGING. Not to kill you. There's no need for an arms race. As long as you're not a cleric 1 rogue 1 wizard 1 sorcerer 1 or something you'll be fine.

[Vaynor]

They have a good selection of weapons.. that can't hit thanks to their BAB.

Can't hit? With Weapon Finesse and Snowflake Wardance, you can add Dexterity, Charisma, AND inspire courage bonus (upwards of +12 at mid levels). That's a pretty hefty attack bonus.


They have save or suck spells... that have a Lower DC thanks to being a lower level spell

Sure, yeah. Sublime Chord? 9th level casting?


They have healing spells.... that don't heal what the level appropriate encounter will dish out in a round.

They get cure spells at the same level as clerics. Sure they don't progress as much, that's what you get for having a more versatile spell list and the whole bardic music shebang. You can't expect them to behave like full casters, because they're not.


They have good skills.. but the rogue can make better use of them (find traps, bluff/blackstab)

Yeah but with such a high charisma dependence, your diplomacy and perform checks are much more powerful. Why fight when they'll be your friend?

[Oslecamo]

Sure, yeah. Sublime Chord? 9th level casting?


Congratulations, for the very few last levels of the game, your spells are not gonna suck compared to the rest of the party.

Hey, I know what! Pick ur-priest! He gets 9th level spells even faster!

Except that ur-priest, like, can be taken by anybody with a little multiclassing.

[Doc Roc]

Congratulations, for the very few last levels of the game, your spells are not gonna suck compared to the rest of the party.

Hey, I know what! Pick ur-priest! He gets 9th level spells even faster!

Except that ur-priest, like, can be taken by anybody with a little multiclassing.

My experience with mathematics suggests that while the latter half of the game is indeed that last portion of the game, most people do not consider 50% to be a negligible quantity. Sub Chord is a fantastic PrC that's pretty much amazing as soon as you take it. Particularly if you then progress it with another hard hitting and excellent PrC. And maybe you three dipped bard to get in, used ur-priest, and hit up fochy lyrist after dodging through the arduous pre-requisites. But oooohhh no, that's not a valid bard build because it doesn't have enough bard in it! Dipping isn't valid! No one does it in a real game!

;)

[Vaynor]

My experience with mathematics suggests that while the latter half of the game is indeed that last portion of the game, most people do not consider 50% to be a negligible quantity. Sub Chord is a fantastic PrC that's pretty much amazing as soon as you take it. Particularly if you then progress it with another hard hitting and excellent PrC. And maybe you three dipped bard to get in, used ur-priest, and hit up fochy lyrist after dodging through the arduous pre-requisites. But oooohhh no, that's not a valid bard build because it doesn't have enough bard in it! Dipping isn't valid! No one does it in a real game!

;)

Seeker of the Song makes a nice 2 level dip for the Combine Songs ability.

[Doc Roc]

Truuuueeeeee story!
I want to be clear that though I defend them, I really don't particularly like bards. They don't do the things I enjoy, and I sort of detest the diplomancy skill. Oh, do you spell it diplomacy? Huh. How odd. :) I just don't like it when no one's even-handed. I've written pretty extensively about the terrible deficiencies of the core-only bard in reasonable PvE play, particularly at highly optimized tables.

[Kaiyanwang]

Speaking for my experience, I always laughed at bard until I saw one in game.

The +hit things make you less likely to waste a powerful and sweared advantageous position to charge and SA, or a ray.

Whit the blamed TWF, the damage goes up. Spells are not so bad, and in splatbook bard had a gooood powerup.

Finally, my concept of the game, at risk of filling your hearts with fear, is not kill things and take their stuff (only, at least).

The bard is awesome, is able to party with orcs in place of be eaten, or to seduce a genie lady, or to move the hearth of an old crossroad guardian.

With the right player, is simply pure fun at the table.

[Doc Roc]

My real life experience has suggested that seduction of genie ladies is difficult and often harrowing.

[Kaiyanwang]

My real life experience has suggested that seduction of genie ladies is difficult and often harrowing.

Actually, it depends mainly from the element

*sound of a crash cymbal*

[Signmaker]

Seeker of the Song makes a nice 2 level dip for the Combine Songs ability.

6 levels nets you spell-jamming, as determined (from what I recall) by your Perform check. Store it on your Crystal Echoblade and go to melee-town on the now confused casters.

[T.G. Oskar]

If you put it like that, you are right: it is not fair to put the average bard in an optimized party. However, that was not my point. I am a big fan of bards and have played bards in various games, both enjoying myself and adding to the party, much in the way you describe. My point was that, with increasing optimization for the other partymembers, the need for your (bard) role becomes less and less, even if you optimize the bard well too. That is what I have experienced: with an increase in efficiency in their own fields, partymembers increase the gap the 'secondary / jack-of-all-trades' figure has to close while that figure has to increase its efficiency in several fields of expertise at once to keep up. A positive relation between the party optimizing on one hand and a bard thinking 'Mah, they can do without me' on the other.

Considering that you can improve Inspire Courage to near-epic levels with a modicum of investment, without spending a spell, for like 5-10 uses at low levels, and perhaps 15 at high levels, it doesn't seem that bad. Mostly because you can stack the bonuses.

The reason a bard may feel a bit off the party is because it won't have much chance to do something when the Wizard finishes the battle before it even starts. Contingency + Foresight, Time Stop + triple Delayed Blast Fireball, and other nasty combos end battles before they begin. However, when there is a need for stacking, the optimized Bard shines again because it provides a very high buff which eclipses all other bonuses of the same kind. To measure it out: Greater Heroics, a spell even Wizards can cast as a 6th level spell, offers a +4 in attack rolls and immunity to fear, amongst others. If a Bard were to be unoptimized, that spell would pretty much replace the Inspire Courage song. However, and for the Bard's benefit, the insane amount of stacking of IC provided bonuses pretty much eclipses the bonus provided by the spell. Now, both can co-exist very happily: Greater Heroics provides the same morale bonus to saves and skill checks, immunity to fear which eclipses the morale bonus to fear saves from IC, but IC provides a hefty bonus which the Fighter and the Rogue and the Cleric if it goes melee and the Druid (and probably its animal companion too) will appreciate a lot. Specifically since you'll be capable of having up to six battles where you'll be doing pretty solid songs.

A Bard won't feel replaced if the team works as supposed to be. Probably it sounds like a senseless excuse, but saving some time of the Cleric's buffing and aiding the melee guys makes it worthwhile. A Bard would feel as you explain if the party is composed of Wizards that don't care about your buffs, your songs, and your particular fighting abilities since they end battles in their surprise round.


Aye, but it has more impact on a rogue than on a bard, in my opinion. When a bard knows 15 spells and both the bard and the rogue get 2 wands and 3 scrolls, a bard has access 20 magic tricks and the rogue 5, four times as much. Give them both 5 wands and 10 scrolls and it is 30 vs 15, two times as much. As such I feel it has more impact on rogues, in other words you are then trivializing one of the bard's strong points, i.e. magic.

Considering that the Bard's spell list allows it to use some wands, scrolls and staves without an UMD check, I don't see why it turns into a trivializing point. Actually, it makes the bard have an edge against the Rogue. The only way where the Rogue would probably have a bigger edge would be if it dips a level in Sorcerer or Wizard, and has the right ability score to cast the spell.


Congratulations, for the very few last levels of the game, your spells are not gonna suck compared to the rest of the party.

Hey, I know what! Pick ur-priest! He gets 9th level spells even faster!

Except that ur-priest, like, can be taken by anybody with a little multiclassing.

Sans the Paladin who's good. Sans the people who are actually good characters, or are fine with their deities.

So not exactly anybody. Sublime Chord, while a bit more restrictive in terms of class choice and skills, can be chosen by pretty much anyone who takes the bardic dip. Well, probably except Monks. But then again, you must be really good or a suicidal guy to play one anyways...

[derfenrirwolv]

Sure, yeah. Sublime Chord? 9th level casting?

Core anyone?

The original poster is asking why people think bards suck. The answer is that those people are playing with core material or mostly core material. How good they are in the expansion isn't really what you're answering, you're answering how good are the bard prestige classes.




They get cure spells at the same level as clerics. Sure they don't progress as much, that's what you get for having a more versatile spell list and the whole bardic music shebang. You can't expect them to behave like full casters, because they're not.

They're two levels behind the caster in terms of spell level. In D&D after 10th level or so spell level is ALL. They also cast far fewer spells than a cleric or wizard




Yeah but with such a high charisma dependence, your diplomacy and perform checks are much more powerful. Why fight when they'll be your friend?

zombie be friends with your braaaaaaaaaains.

[Oslecamo]

My experience with mathematics suggests that while the latter half of the game is indeed that last portion of the game, most people do not consider 50% to be a negligible quantity.

My experience with mathematics(and D&D) suggests that since you have to start from the bottom, and you can fall, several times, geting from level 1 to 10 isn't a very linear experience.

How many characters last enough time to hit level 20 again?

[mikej]

I think it's been overlt proven the usefullness of the Bard, so I'm not going to go into further details. In my general experience, It's the stereotype behind Bards that put people off. A class that sings and performs stuff like dancing for it's class features. A lot of players I've gamed with see this and don't bother to look deeper into it's potential. I'd never play one though. It's not my style, but I know they're usefull if ran properly

[DeathQuaker]

It's been said, but in short: the Bard is a great support class.

People who think it's "lame" want to be the uber-alles champion--they want to do the MOST damage or the MOST healing or the MOST sneaking or whatever. Bards defy this concept, intentionally by design.

If you feel good playing cooperatively (which is what playing an RPG should be all about, IMHO), and you like being the one who helps everyone else shine a little more brightly and fill in the gaps where needed, then it's a perfectly great role to play.

Moreover, as long as you're in a well-run, well-rounded campaign with roleplaying and exploration opportunities, maybe a little intrigue, the Bard will certainly shine in social situations and in situations where knowledge and lore are a must. If all the game is is a series of combats over and over, you might start to be frustrated with the Bard, though the Bard again, will still be useful. Just not the one-shot, one-killer.

If your life is a hellish, desolate waste because you're not dealing 10d10+60 damage a round, don't play a Bard. If you like being a supportive jack-of-all-trades with a trick for every occasion and the ability to make those around you swoon to the sound of your voice, the Bard's the core class to be.

[Freelance Henchman]

One more opinion: there's something not-quite-fitting about the Bard that makes it look out of place in D&D to me, and it shares this quality with the Monk that also has the what-the-hell-is-this-doing-here aura to it. As others have pointed out, the "I sing at enemies" thing just annoys me too. I can't really judge the mechanical qualities, but from the flavor alone I wouldn't want to play it.

[Callista]

1) Personal opinion - As a concept, bards don't seem to fit well. As Elan said, they sing at their enemies, for Pete's sake! It is kind of a silly class. Look at movies to get an idea of what I'm talking about - Matrix has a feel of Monk, or Fighter, or Sorcerer to it. Mission: Impossible has a lot of Rogue to it. Dragonheart has Fighter, maybe even Paladin to it. Harry Potter has lots of Wizard to it. I'm sure you can look around and find a few movies that have a feel of Cleric to it, especially it if involves horror movies with demons or ghosts or vampires. There is something cool about swords slashing, fists flying, and horribly flashy magic crackling off the fingertips of the heroes (or villains).

But bards?

They're the frickin' score! They're the music! Sure, a good movie has good music to it, but putting the music as one of the protagonists in the movie?!? And the villain decides to take a swing at him (or her) instead of the hulking barbarian swinging the huge axe?? That's like Spaceballs and Dark Helmet taking out the cameraman!Here's the thing: Bards aren't meant to be the protagonists, not really. They're meant to be the background music, the storyteller along for the ride, the morale booster, the diplomat. With a bard in the party, you may never even notice he's helping, but once he's gone, everything suddenly seems a lot harder. Bards are all about bonuses that way--help the party, hinder the enemy. I don't know if you guys have ever played in a party with a well-played bard, but in general, the bard is like a walking buff. The other characters in the party effectively drop about a level in power when he's not there. They're pretty good for role-players, too, because of the Diplomacy thing (party face, more often than not), because the versatility of the class lends itself to puzzle-solving, and because the class as a whole just lends itself to hamming it up. I think, if you are going to play a bard, you will play the most powerful bard possible if you look at the other players' builds first--because a bard doesn't exist to enhance his own power, or at least not mostly. If those other builds are good, if they work together, you better believe the bard is powerful. It's just not obvious the power is coming from him.

[Kilbia]

There may be a whole other factor in peoples' opinions too: the DM. Imagine a scenario where the party decides they want to try and parley with the orc chieftain rather than just wading in with their axes swinging.

If you have a DM who's new, nervous, or otherwise ill-prepared for such a scenario, then no matter how well the "face" rolls on his Diplomacy check, there's still a good chance that it will all end in "the orc chieftain refuses to talk to you - roll initiative". Done often enough, it sends the very clear message that Diplomacy ain't gonna mean squat in this campaign. If the "face" is a bard, that bard has been severely hamstrung.

[Talon Sky]

There may be a whole other factor in peoples' opinions too: the DM. Imagine a scenario where the party decides they want to try and parley with the orc chieftain rather than just wading in with their axes swinging.

If you have a DM who's new, nervous, or otherwise ill-prepared for such a scenario, then no matter how well the "face" rolls on his Diplomacy check, there's still a good chance that it will all end in "the orc chieftain refuses to talk to you - roll initiative". Done often enough, it sends the very clear message that Diplomacy ain't gonna mean squat in this campaign. If the "face" is a bard, that bard has been severely hamstrung.

Experienced players should take a DM's experience in the game into consideration when making characters and not try to circumvent his plot like that if they know he or she is inexperienced and probably doesn't have a backup plan. Most DM's, however, can roll with a party talking it's way out of a battle and handle their plots in another way.

[Doc Roc]

People who think it's "lame" want to be the uber-alles champion--they want to do the MOST damage or the MOST healing or the MOST sneaking or whatever. Bards defy this concept, intentionally by design.


I'm going to note down that I really don't think there was a lot of intention behind the design of the bard class. I'm not trying to be contrary, I think this is an important idea.....

Basically, Core shows a lack of cohesion. It has the same problem that a lot of generic systems do, that the elements are designed to provide nuts, bolts, and a couple of allen keys for the purpose of assembling a platform for a game rather than actually playing one right out of the box. As a result, some bits got more testing than others, some bits were better designed, some things don't work well together. I question the intentionality of the bard at a basic level, and I think that a lot of these concepts that we associate with them are just our projections onto a class that was not overwhelmingly well designed and really lacked an over-arching ethos or party role. Outside of core, design errors were addressed over time and with some degree of concerted intent. I truly think that the bard is a class that was just not well thought out, but can be a lot of fun literally almost in spite of its design.

[Vaynor]

zombie be friends with your braaaaaaaaaains.

Requiem from Libris Mortis.

[T.G. Oskar]

Requiem from Libris Mortis.

While at it, Green Ear from Complete Adventurer. So that you can affect plant creatures.

That way, your Druid will love you when it awakens Shambling Mounds or Treants. Or, if you need to fascinate such creatures.

Now, all that you probably need is something to bypass constructs' immunities, and the Artificer suddenly becomes real close pals with the Bard.

Or, *ahem*, wait until Epic and get Music of the Gods. Sure, they get +10 to resist such things as Fascinate or Suggestion, but since those are based off Perform...

Now, does this work for Mind Blank? I think it also affects deities, so it makes sense it affects mind-blanked creatures.

[Doc Roc]

Hum, so if I'm a dragon of old or older, which I can conceivably be, I auto-qual for epic feats......

:: hums intently and meanders off ::

[Olo Demonsbane]

Here's the thing: Bards aren't meant to be the protagonists, not really. They're meant to be the background music, the storyteller along for the ride, the morale booster, the diplomat.

I just realized something funny about this comparison as bards to the background of a movie...y'know how in movies the PCs always win against overwhelming odds....


With a bard in the party, you may never even notice he's helping, but once he's gone, everything suddenly seems a lot harder. Bards are all about bonuses that way--help the party, hinder the enemy. I don't know if you guys have ever played in a party with a well-played bard, but in general, the bard is like a walking buff.

Not to mention the fact that a properly built bard can do well on his own as well...Bard 3/Warblade 17 anyone? Bard 10/Sublime Chord 10 (Actually a subomptimal build for Sublime Chord, but whatever...)?


The other characters in the party effectively drop about a level in power when he's not there.

1 level? Only 1 level? Show me a party where everyone can gain 15d6 sonic damage in one level, and Ill give you a cookie.

[Flickerdart]

1 level? Only 1 level? Show me a party where everyone can gain 15d6 sonic damage in one level, and Ill give you a cookie.
If it's 17th level, then going down a level hurts more than 15d6.

[holywhippet]

One more opinion: there's something not-quite-fitting about the Bard that makes it look out of place in D&D to me, and it shares this quality with the Monk that also has the what-the-hell-is-this-doing-here aura to it. As others have pointed out, the "I sing at enemies" thing just annoys me too. I can't really judge the mechanical qualities, but from the flavor alone I wouldn't want to play it.

The song part can be easily reflavoured. Instead of singing a bard could be calling out words of encouragement to his allies.

In the strip, Elan doesn't always make sense when he's using his bard song: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0001.html The song gives a benefit just because you are singing, you don't need to play a musical instrument to accompany it. Unless you are doing something that requires a perform check you are better off singing and attacking at the same time.

[ResplendentFire]

As one of the people who does not like Bards, let me chime in with a counter opinion.

1) Personal opinion - As a concept, bards don't seem to fit well. As Elan said, they sing at their enemies, for Pete's sake! It is kind of a silly class. Look at movies to get an idea of what I'm talking about - Matrix has a feel of Monk, or Fighter, or Sorcerer to it. Mission: Impossible has a lot of Rogue to it. Dragonheart has Fighter, maybe even Paladin to it. Harry Potter has lots of Wizard to it. I'm sure you can look around and find a few movies that have a feel of Cleric to it, especially it if involves horror movies with demons or ghosts or vampires. There is something cool about swords slashing, fists flying, and horribly flashy magic crackling off the fingertips of the heroes (or villains).

But bards?

They're the frickin' score! They're the music! Sure, a good movie has good music to it, but putting the music as one of the protagonists in the movie?!? And the villain decides to take a swing at him (or her) instead of the hulking barbarian swinging the huge axe?? That's like Spaceballs and Dark Helmet taking out the cameraman!

Yes, the bard, the actual Celtic or Greek bard (and probably lots of others) was a special individual in society, but he was definitely not a hero. He sang about the heroes, he passed on information and stories. He was about the equal of today's rockstar.

You need to read up on Amergin, one of the Milesian sons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amergin_Gl%C3%BAingel).

Or heck, how about Amergin mac Eccit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amergin_mac_Eccit)?

And of course there's Orpheus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orpheus).


Then again, old stories place a druid, one of D&D's Big Six, as an advisor to a melee warrior, and practically never shows him unleashing the fury of the elements. Only aging backwards, which barely is a feat comparable to turning into an army of animals and unleashing the massacre.

Also, consider that he was tricked by an enchantress.

Yep, the greatest druid/wizard in the world tricked by an enchantress.

So I don't see your logic.

And I am surprised that he is also placed as a bard on some stories, as mentioned otherwise.

I'm not sure what you mean by the emphasis on Merlin being tricked by an enchantress - what makes being tricked by an enchantress so worthy of comment in this way?

Anyway, bards are occasionally conflated with druids in some way, which is probably one reason why Merlin was represented as both at various points. And there was at least one legendary/heroic figure (Amergin above) who was both a bard and a druid.

[T.G. Oskar]

I'm not sure what you mean by the emphasis on Merlin being tricked by an enchantress - what makes being tricked by an enchantress so worthy of comment in this way?

Mostly because, from all of the D&D schools of magic, Enchantment is seen as one of the weakest, along with Evocation. Both have their uses, but while Evocation has spells such as Contingency, Forcecage, and Delayed Blast Fireball, Enchantment has the bulk of its spells nulled by a single 8th level Abjuration spell, and by three particularly common immunities (Mind Blank, or immunity to charms and immunity to compulsions, and immunity to mind-affecting spells)

The fact that someone who would probably be considered a bad choice for a Wizard reputedly tricked with enchanting magic to someone who probably is an example of an optimized Druid (or Wizard if taking Tide's word, though he was probably Arcane Hierophant), makes it a bit worthwhile. It would be like saying that a 20th level Fighter with the Weapon Focus branch complete managed to defeat a 20th level Batman Wizard. Using its weapon and stuff, but defeating it in an entirely different way (such as making the Wizard flee by using Intimidating Strike or something)


1 level? Only 1 level? Show me a party where everyone can gain 15d6 sonic damage in one level, and Ill give you a cookie.

Hmm, I am intrigued by the proposal. Is that possible, or was it just something to say? Though, I suppose it must be Dragonfire Inspiration and somehow getting Sonic; even though no Core dragons have a sonic breath weapon (or is it sonic roar?)

As for the Bard 3/Warblade 17 build, I think that is basically enhancing the Warblade, not enhancing the Bard. I'd say a bit more of Bard 10/Lyric Thaumaturge 10, or Bard 9/Sublime Chord 1/Virtuoso 10, but not of that one. The bonus seems kinda limited.

As a final question: is there an item (not a feat, since there are feats already for it) that grant extra uses of Bardic Music like the Nightstick does to Turn Undead attempts? Because that coupled with dipping Sublime Chord and Metamagic Song + Persistent Spell would be an interesting proposal...

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Mostly because, from all of the D&D schools of magic, Enchantment is seen as one of the weakest, along with Evocation. Both have their uses, but while Evocation has spells such as Contingency, Forcecage, and Delayed Blast Fireball, Enchantment has the bulk of its spells nulled by a single 8th level Abjuration spell, and by three particularly common immunities (Mind Blank, or immunity to charms and immunity to compulsions, and immunity to mind-affecting spells) Worse than that, I'm afraid. A simple, very common 1st level spell (Protection from Evil) will completely negate any and all negative effect from any of the Enchantment spells you have to worry about. Yea, a 1st level spell pwning an entire college... and people wonder why it is considered sub-optimal? At least Evocation can do damage... usually... if the target doesn't have evasion.


Hmm, I am intrigued by the proposal. Is that possible, or was it just something to say? Though, I suppose it must be Dragonfire Inspiration and somehow getting Sonic; even though no Core dragons have a sonic breath weapon (or is it sonic roar?) There's a feat which lets him change out the damage flavor for sonic.


As for the Bard 3/Warblade 17 build, I think that is basically enhancing the Warblade, not enhancing the Bard. I'd say a bit more of Bard 10/Lyric Thaumaturge 10, or Bard 9/Sublime Chord 1/Virtuoso 10, but not of that one. The bonus seems kinda limited. Bard3/Warblade 17 gets all the music of the Bard, with White Raven Song, but the full BAB and WTFPWN action of the Warblade.

How about Bard/UrPriest/Sublime Chord/Mystic Theurge? Eventually gets 9th level spells in both realms, although you have to use a variant Bard to get the prerequsites for UrPriest in.

Straight Bard is actually not a bad route, get some fun abilities, anyways.


As a final question: is there an item (not a feat, since there are feats already for it) that grant extra uses of Bardic Music like the Nightstick does to Turn Undead attempts? Because that coupled with dipping Sublime Chord and Metamagic Song + Persistent Spell would be an interesting proposal...
Not that I'm aware of.

[Droodle]

The name of the class is "bard". Bard in like the guy who sings. Shakespeare didn't sing -- he was a playwright -- yet we still call him "The Bard". No, there's plenty of precedent for the oratorical bard.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Shakespeare didn't sing -- he was a playwright -- yet we still call him "The Bard". No, there's plenty of precedent for the oratorical bard.

Not to mention the old Skalds who were the lorekeepers and teachers...

[The New Bruceski]

Shakespeare didn't sing -- he was a playwright -- yet we still call him "The Bard". No, there's plenty of precedent for the oratorical bard.

And Homer before him. Maybe not referred to as THE Bard, but the class does find itself sticking to him.

[Vaynor]

As a final question: is there an item (not a feat, since there are feats already for it) that grant extra uses of Bardic Music like the Nightstick does to Turn Undead attempts? Because that coupled with dipping Sublime Chord and Metamagic Song + Persistent Spell would be an interesting proposal...

Yes, there is. The Songblade from Complete Adventurer grants one additional use of bardic music per day.

[pjackson]

I cannot see why they may be a bad class. They are versatile and cool. And here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=bc18425e5fa73d30e4a9a54889edf4 4e&topic=1002.0) it says they are Tier 3. I belive they are.

Since Tier 1 = able to break the game in many ways
and Tier 2 = able to break the game in a few ways
Tier 3 seems to be where the best classes are - powerful, flexible but not able to do everything by themselves.

(Tier 4 = able to do one useful thing very well, weak when the situation does not allow that and predictable when it does.
Tier 5 = Able to do one not very useful thing very well, or moderately capable at one thing that is useful.
Tier 6 = Not good at anything.)

But the ratings assume that the PCs are played/built to the limit of their classes abilities and lots of books are being allowed.
I think bards drop a tier if you use core only, and then another when the DM/party gets fed up of him using diplomacy all the time.

[Talon Sky]

I have an idea for a bard now....a halfling who's talent comes from singing and telling stories to his children at night. And now, he's got to adventure to try and find out who kidnapped them.

[McBish]

So I was wondering what books some of these are in. Pretty much any of them that don't say what they are in.


If you want your bard to take off, grab the following things:

Badge of Valor item: +1 to Inspire Courage
Song of the Heart feat: +1 to Inspire Courage
Inspirational Boost spell: +1 to Inspire Courage
Masterwork Instrument: +1 to Inspire Courage if you pick the right type. These are found in the Complete Adventurer.
Words of Creation: Doubles your Inspire Courage Bonus. You take some nonlethal damage though, but you can work around that easily.
Dragonfire Inspiration feat: converts your Inspire Courage bonus of x into elemental damage of xd6. Default is fire, if you have the blood of, say, a silver dragon from being a Silverbrow Human, you can toggle between fire and cold damage.
Melodic Casting feat: allows you to use a Perform check in place of Concentration for spells, as well as letting you cast spells while you sing.
Lingering Song feat: Your bard song lasts for 10 rounds after you finish singing.
OR
Harmonizing Weapon enchantment: Your weapon will hold a song for you for 10 rounds. This allows you to use regular Inspire Courage and Dragonfire Inspiration at the same time.
Gloves of the Balanced Hand item, gives you TWF if you don't have it already.
Snowflake Wardance feat: adds your Charisma modifier to attack rolls with light slashing weapons that you wield in one hand. Costs one use of bardic music to activate as a swift action.

So basically you have an IC bonus of 12 at 9th level when you can pull this all off. That's +12 attack and damage, as well as +12d6 fire or cold damage.

Spend two rounds singing, a different song each time, then buff the party with Haste, cast some other spells if necessary, and then wade in and TWF everything in sight to death.


MAD is, I think, one of the most pressing issues.

[Karsa Andshort]

I have an idea for a bard now....a halfling who's talent comes from singing and telling stories to his children at night. And now, he's got to adventure to try and find out who kidnapped them.

IT IS A HIPPOPOTOMUS!!! THAT IS NOT MY COW!!! (http://www.elfwood.com/~bryantoy/Sam_Vimes-IT_IS_A_HIPPOPOTOMUS_THAT_IS_NOT_MY_COW_.2591837.h tml)

[T.G. Oskar]

So I was wondering what books some of these are in. Pretty much any of them that don't say what they are in.

Badge of Valor item: Magic Item Compendium
Song of the Heart feat: Eberron Campaign Setting book
Inspirational Boost spell: Spell Compendium
Words of Creation: Book of Exalted Deeds.
Dragonfire Inspiration feat: Dragon Magic
Melodic Casting feat: Complete Mage
OR
Harmonizing Weapon enchantment: probably MIC (Magic Item Compendium)
Gloves of the Balanced Hand item: ditto from above
Snowflake Wardance feat: Frostburn

Hope that helps. That's mostly seven books and dipping from each source to make the fully fledged Inspire Courage build, 8 if you count the masterwork instrument from CA.

[Fri]

Why bard is the greatest class ever (http://www.dungeonmastering.com/gaming-life/why-bard-is-the-greatest-class-ever)

[Doc Roc]

Not the most compelling argument I've run into. Better ones were posted through out this thread, both for and against. I think the real issue with bard is not the class itself, but the design of core and the mindset that many people approach bards with.

[Trizap]

so the Tier System says the Bard is actually one of the BEST classes there is eh? good enough to be strong, not powerful enough to be broken.

and the article above? yea I can see they are the best class.......

all of this makes it perfectly ok to play one, take note of all of this everyone.