Why a gate?

[Ron Miel]

The Order of the scribble found five holes in reality, and put gates in front of them. Why gates? A gate is something that is designed to be opened sometimes, to allow things to go through. Why is this a good idea? Wouldn't it have been better to create a wall instead? This would be intended as a permanent barrier, and without a ritual for opening it. Wouldn't that be safer?




:mitd: wait, what gate?

[Morty]

Perhaps it was impossible to seal the rifts in a way someone with sufficient power couldn't undo. I mean, you can blow a wall up, can't you?

[Snake-Aes]

For all we know, they are permanent locks. None of them were made to be opened some day. That's the Dark One's idea.

[NerfTW]

Considering one of them was just a sapphire, and clearly not a gate, the word "gate" is simply being used because there's a rift "behind" it. Only two so far have looked like they could actually be entered, and even then, we know that entering it results in horrible non existence.

And the ritual isn't something built into the gates, it's simply reworking the original binding magic. They could do the same thing with a "wall".

[Murdim]

Probably because the Dungeon of Dorukan and his mysterious Gate appeared way before the Giant imagined the whole Snarl backstory. Also, gates in general are supposed to be cool in a mysterious way (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RuleOfCool)

[NerfTW]

Probably because the Dungeon of Dorukan and his mysterious Gate appeared way before the Giant imagined the whole Snarl backstory. Also, gates in general are cool. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RuleOfCool)

Neat hint. Linking to TV Tropes "rule of cool" page does not automatically invalidate any argument against something.

re: your edit, linking to the page still doesn't mean the comic doesn't have to be internally consistent or follow logic. As I pointed out earlier, though, "gate" is just a term, since the Azure City gate is encased in a sapphire and not a gate in any conventional sense.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

As has been pointed out, "Gates" in the magical sense don't have a lot in common with actual physical gates. In cases where there's not a lot of consistent terminology regarding magic, anything that can act as a barrier tends to be referred to as a "Gate" even if the gate is never intended to be breached. So it's really just one of those misnomers due to tradition.

[Faleldir]

All epic magic must be breakable to lower the Spellcraft DC.

[Larkspur]

Since when is "barrier" or "seal" not a perfectly wizardly term for a magical wall that must not be breached? I agree with the OP; gate implies the possibility of opening the barrier. And invite some jerk to use them as a doomsday weapon to hold the world hostage. It was just asking for trouble.

Maybe Dorukan was using the gates to study the Snarl? That would explain why his gate and Lirian's were gate shaped while Soon's was a jewel. We'll have to see what the other two look like.

If Xykon gets to Girard's and it's stuck inside some stupid rock, he is not going to be a happy lich...

[Forbiddenwar]

to answer you question, they did Seal the rift first and then built the locks over those seals. "Gate" may be an improper term, but it stuck. I think Giant used the word gate early on because the lock did look like a gate. Then to avoid future confussion, continued to use the word "gate" dispite not looking like one. So they are gates that are not gates (although Xykon thinks of them as gates, something he can open). And a peanut is neither a pea nor a nut. Go figure.

[theinsulabot]

shoko theorized that the gates might actually allow limited control of the snarl by limiting its power. theres evidence in SoD that goes against this, but without going into spoilers we do not know who is correct, its possible the gates were created to buy time for the snarl to of been weakened and perhaps destroyed, keeping in mind that the snarl is also theorized to actually be weaker against humans then he is against gods. as of yet its a non issue because the OOTS world doesnt appear to have anyone capable of going toe to toe with godly power, but the rift order might of hypothesized someone might come along who had that level of ability and created a way to weaken the snarl for that time.



please note this is WILD conjecture and has little to any information to back it up except s few off remarks by shoko and a few others, so take with a grain of salt

[archon_huskie]

Yes, Girard's gate could concievablly be hidden as a mirror

Serini's Gate might be Kraagor's coffin

[David Argall]

Probably because the Dungeon of Dorukan and his mysterious Gate appeared way before the Giant imagined the whole Snarl backstory. Also, gates in general are supposed to be cool in a mysterious way (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RuleOfCool)

Seems like the most likely theory. Recall here the gate in King Kong. There is no logical reason for a gate that King Kong can use in a wall to keep him out. But the producer was saving money by reusing an old set where the wall had a gate, so a gate appears in the movie, and looked great being crashed open.

[HandofShadows]

The term "gate" is used because The Giant forsaw VALVe useing the name PORTAL. :smallbiggrin:

[Ron Miel]

You'll have to explain that one, HandofShadows, I have no idea what the reference is.

[Morty]

Neat hint. Linking to TV Tropes "rule of cool" page does not automatically invalidate any argument against something.


It's not repeated often enough.
Although the rest of Murdim's explanation makes sense - it's very probable that back in the beginning of the strip, Giant didn't have the entire storyline in mind.

[Skorj]

You'll have to explain that one, HandofShadows, I have no idea what the reference is.

Portal is the wildly popular game available on Valve's Steam. It's also the front page of Wikipedia today. Presumably, HandofShadows was suggesting that "portal" is now linked in the mind of too many with that game to be a good generic SciFi term.

[Morquard]

All epic magic must be breakable to lower the Spellcraft DC.
Considering 3 out of 5 gates are already history, I think they're breakable, and actually rather easily :)

However Xykon and Redcloak don't wnat to break the gates, they want to pervert them, to use them for their own plans.

[Thanatosia]

I have not read SoD yet, so I don't know details of Xykon and Redcloaks Plan to use the Gates, but clearly there is a gate-like attribute to the seals placed upon them for some reason.... If Xykon just wanted a Rift, there's a big open one over Azure City under his control - and presumably the rifts in the forest and mountains were Durokons dungeon used to stand before elan had it self destruct, but it seems like he has no interest in the actual rifts themselves, but in the seal-Gates placed over the rifts. Does anyone who read SOD know anything about the nature of the seals placed on the rifts that would be integral to Xykon's plans such that a un-sealed rift is useless to his purposes? Is there any reason Xykon can't make his own seal/Gate/whatever? Is there some Mcguffin that The order of the Scribble used to create the Gates that Xykon cannot duplicate, given how easily he seemed to have reverse-engineered Durokon's cloister spell?

[Ron Miel]

Does anyone who read SOD know anything about the nature of the seals placed on the rifts that would be integral to Xykon's plans such that a un-sealed rift is useless to his purposes? Is there any reason Xykon can't make his own seal/Gate/whatever?



SOD spoiler



Page 72, the first gate is destroyed.

Xykon - Can we build a new one
Redcloak - maybe if we were both epic level, but we'd still have to research how to do so, and that could take years - maybe decades

[Starscream]

Apparently I'm the only one who read the subject of this thread and immediately thought "Why a duck?"


Y'know, from "The Cocoanuts".


...The Marx Brothers movie.


......from 1929?


.........I'll just leave quietly.

[Porthos]

Apparently I'm the only one who read the subject of this thread and immediately thought "Why a duck?"

No, you weren't the only one. I just didn't say anything coz I couldn't find a way to bring the funny. :smalltongue:

[NerfTW]

I have not read SoD yet, so I don't know details of Xykon and Redcloaks Plan to use the Gates, but clearly there is a gate-like attribute to the seals placed upon them for some reason.... If Xykon just wanted a Rift, there's a big open one over Azure City under his control - and presumably the rifts in the forest and mountains were Durokons dungeon used to stand before elan had it self destruct, but it seems like he has no interest in the actual rifts themselves, but in the seal-Gates placed over the rifts. Does anyone who read SOD know anything about the nature of the seals placed on the rifts that would be integral to Xykon's plans such that a un-sealed rift is useless to his purposes? Is there any reason Xykon can't make his own seal/Gate/whatever? Is there some Mcguffin that The order of the Scribble used to create the Gates that Xykon cannot duplicate, given how easily he seemed to have reverse-engineered Durokon's cloister spell?


The gates (seals) on the rifts are explained in the main comic in the Crayons of Time arc and other places. The rifts at the time were capable of being opened wider. (as evidenced by the destruction of the Azure City rift) The gates are designed to contain and control the rifts, preventing the Snarl from making any further incursions into the Order's plane of existence.

In SOD, we learn that:
The Dark One knows (or at least believes) that due to the nature of the seals, he can use epic magic to actually move the rift in reality (now that it's been contained by a gate) to a different location, as a weapon/bargaining chip against the gods. There is, however, the potential of this totally not working, and the Snarl just unleashing itself on the world.

Which works in the Dark One's favor, since now he believes he'd have a say in the new World 3.0. Whether or not they gods would just destroy him before starting over is debatable.

The Order of the Scribble may have known about this problem, but assumed that security through obscurity would prevent anyone from ever finding and attempting to control a gate. Also note that Dorukon's gate was rigged to explode, causing the rift to be unsealed, but preventing any attempt at controlling the gate. Also note that Lirian's gate:

despite Red Cloak's claim of being poorly guarded against fire, was actually successful in it's task. When the army attacked, the treants physically destroyed the gate, preventing any control of it. Presumably, Lirian's hair trigger self destruct was because she believed that she could simply enlist Dorukon's aid to build a new gate.

Soon's gate was guarded by an army of Paladins, with orders to destroy the gate if they were about to lose the battle.

We can assume that the remaining two gates have similar self destruct mechanisms. Far better to risk further rifts and require a second sealing quest than for a villain to gain control of them.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

to answer you question, they did Seal the rift first and then built the locks over those seals.
Ah, yes indeed. The Seal's there to act as the actual barrier. The gate, as an opening could potentially allow access to repair or modify the seal should such be necessary.

Yet another wild hypothesis.

[Cryssandra]

If they didn't put a gate, the main plotline of the comic would be destroyed, simple as that.

[Zuan]

I always simply thought it was a small version of the word ''Gateway''.
Seeing as it is a gateway to the world of the Snarl. :smallsmile:

[NerfTW]

If they didn't put a gate, the main plotline of the comic would be destroyed, simple as that.

Again, "because the plot won't work" is not an excuse for plot holes. If I write a plot that requires someone to get to the top of a building in five seconds, I can't just say "oh, they jumped" because the "main plotline would be destroyed" because of it.

The plot isn't some thing that's set in stone and Rich has to find a way to get to that point. If the gates were called walls, the plot would simply be different. If he made the name "gates" before writing the backstory, he doesn't have to ignore that because "they're really holes in reality", because they ARENT. They're FICTIONAL. He made them up. He can re-write what the holes are until they make sense.

This "the characters are real and telling me the story" thing amateurs do is ridiculous. The entire story is fictional and can be changed to suit the needs of the author.

But there still is no plot hole, because they're only called gates because they're closing off a doorway. That's just natural to call them gates and not walls.

[Y'nokhs]

I always simply thought it was a small version of the word ''Gateway''.
Seeing as it is a gateway to the world of the Snarl. :smallsmile:


Indeed. The rifts are doorways between spaces, and you close doorways off with gates (actually doors, but "gate" sounds more arcane and mystical.)
Besides, if the D&D gate spell actually creates an interplaner portal, arguing about this usage is rather silly in comparison.

[skim172]

I asked this question about a year back under some name I've since forgotten. But yeah, why a gate? Why not just lock the door and throw away the key?

Why did Dorukan make it so in order to open the gate, one had to be pure of heart? Couldn't he, with all his intellect, have imagined enough scenarios where a pure-hearted adventurer have been duped into touching the gate?

And as for Xykon, what's with the zombie/goblin army? And the traps? Let them in, dammit, and when they walk into the gate room, hide behind a big wall and stick an ancient-looking post-it on the gate saying, "5000 xp, touch here."

If I had been Dorukan, I would've inscribed the gate and all the walls with the words, "Don't touch gate except to destroy reality" in every language, dialect, and chicken-scratch I could think of, then some disembodied voices, robot tour guides, and some lawyers requiring signed affidavits and End-User License Agreements (fully read, with hundred-question quiz to test comprehension) before you even entered the dungeon.

But while it is a plot hole, it's one I'm willing to suspend my disbelief for. Because it did come before the Snarl story arc was thought up and I think retconning is absolutely ridiculous. And yes, the story would have little point without them.

[Ron Miel]

... it did come before the Snarl story arc was thought up ... .

I wonder what The Giant's original intention was. Presumably he must have had some plan for what opening the gate meant, and why Xykon wanted it.

[Alex Warlorn]

The Order of the scribble found five holes in reality, and put gates in front of them. Why gates? A gate is something that is designed to be opened sometimes, to allow things to go through. Why is this a good idea? Wouldn't it have been better to create a wall instead? This would be intended as a permanent barrier, and without a ritual for opening it. Wouldn't that be safer?




You make a very very very VERY good point.

[Bibliomancer]

Another thing to keep in mind is that the Snarl is an extremely powerful entity enclosed in a finite space. Over time, it chewed holes in the walls of it's prison, which were subsequently sealed by the Order of the Scribble.

Isn't it possible that they built the gates to allow them to bleed energy off the Snarl in a controlled and limited fashion, thus denying it the excess energy necessary to make more holes? Thus, the 'gate' allows energy to leave the Snarl, weakening it. (If so, Xykon might be planning to siphon off energy from the Snarl to fuel his magic, or open the gate wider to allow a small part of the Snarl to become his minion.)

This is simply another wild theory, but it would account for any perceived plot holes.

[Kupi]

Think of it this way: the Order of the Stick world is the "wall". It's the hard part, the bit that you can't get through. The rifts are holes in the wall. Now, when you have a hole in a wall, you've got two options: fill the hole with the original material, or build a closure out of different material. No mortal has the power to fill the hole in the wall with the original material. So the Order of the Scribble used the other option, which is to close the hole with something else. That's a "gate". It's less sturdy than the original wall, but still designed to keep things from passing through, in much the same way that a wooden gate fills a hole in a stone wall. These gates simply aren't designed to open.

[NerfTW]

I asked this question about a year back under some name I've since forgotten. But yeah, why a gate? Why not just lock the door and throw away the key?

Why did Dorukan make it so in order to open the gate, one had to be pure of heart? Couldn't he, with all his intellect, have imagined enough scenarios where a pure-hearted adventurer have been duped into touching the gate?

And as for Xykon, what's with the zombie/goblin army? And the traps? Let them in, dammit, and when they walk into the gate room, hide behind a big wall and stick an ancient-looking post-it on the gate saying, "5000 xp, touch here."

If I had been Dorukan, I would've inscribed the gate and all the walls with the words, "Don't touch gate except to destroy reality" in every language, dialect, and chicken-scratch I could think of, then some disembodied voices, robot tour guides, and some lawyers requiring signed affidavits and End-User License Agreements (fully read, with hundred-question quiz to test comprehension) before you even entered the dungeon.

But while it is a plot hole, it's one I'm willing to suspend my disbelief for. Because it did come before the Snarl story arc was thought up and I think retconning is absolutely ridiculous. And yes, the story would have little point without them.

Dorukan clearly wanted to be able to monitor and study the rift, and his own hubris about his ability to guard the gate caused him to allow such a situation.

Character fault does not equal plot hole. We clearly see him excercise this flaw in SoD.

[Porthos]

But while it is a plot hole, it's one I'm willing to suspend my disbelief for. Because it did come before the Snarl story arc was thought up

Why do you say that? :smallconfused:

As far as I can recall, Rich didn't introduce the Gate plotline until he thought up the Snarl plotline. At least the bare bones of it:

In the commentary of Dungeon Crawlin' Fools:

"The 'mysterious gate' subplot gets introduced during these strips.... <SNIP> What the gate is and where it came from will remain a mystery for now; suffice to say that the Big Picture for OOTS will involve the gates and how they are used."

(nothing really germane in No Cure for the Paladin Blues so lets skip that for now...)

In the commentary of War and XPs:

"Once I started developing the real story that I was telling, around strip #100...."

So when we take these two statements together and combine it with the fact that we were first introduced to "The Plan" and Dorukan's Gate in Strip #96, it is clear to me that Rich had the bare bones of the überplot laid out. Or at the very least the structure of things that would eventually grow out to be the überplot.

So what about all of the so called plot holes that people keep going on about? Well they're only plotholes if one becomes fixated upon the idea that a gate open and shuts. It becomes a considerably smaller plothole if you think of a gate in terms of a portal or an archway what encloses something. Yeah, it's stretching the dictionary definition pretty tight. But are you going to be the one who argues with an Epic Level Wizard that he isn't using his terminology quite correctly?

Didn't think so. :smalltongue:

Now let's look at things a bit more closely.

Comic #96:
Introduction of the phrase "The Plan".
Introduction of Dorukan's Gate
Says that Xykon has figured out a way to "unseal" the gate.

Comic #97:
Establishes that someone of pure-heart touching the gate will get rid of the sigil that is sealing off the gate from Team Evil. This, taken with the info from the prior strip, indicates that the "unsealing" of the gate was referring to getting rid of the sigil that protects said gate.

Comic #109:
Shows Elan reaching out to touch the outer, orange edge of the magical thingy around the rift, which he also calls a gate.

Comic #114 and #115:
Shows that it's sigil on top of the gate which zaps Xykon is to fine powdered dust.

Comic #118:
Shows "Castle Self-Destruct" Button. With admonishment to "Do Not Touch Ever. No, not even then."

Comic #120: We see a glimpse of Miko and Lord Shojo for the first time (though we didn't know who they were, the commentary in DCF [which was written no later than Comic #148] clearly shows that Rich intended the shadow blue figure to be a Paladin from the start which lends credence to the idea that he had already sketched out the Sapphire Guard idea at least somewhat)

Comic #85c (written no later than Comic #148 <see above>):
Establishes that wooden doors were put there to stop zombies from wandering into the gate and getting destroyed.

Comic #276:
Lord Shojo speaking about the rifts: "While they never found a way to remove the rifts entirely, they did develop means to seal them up.

<SNIP>

"With the rifts sealed, Dorukan and Lirian began intense magical research into a way to 'lock' them."

<SNIP>

"In time, they developed a design for a mystic gate that would buttress the fabric of reality around each rift and keep it from tearing further. As long as the gates stood strong, the rifts would never grow."

Comic #277:
Dorukan left for the Redmountain Hills, where he spent years warding his gate with the most powerful sigils he could imagine.

Comic #278:
Theorizes that Dorukan feared that someone might harness a gate for unimaginable horrors and thus put in a Self-Destruct rune that blew up his Castle (and by extension his gate). Also establishes that the loss of any one gate probably isn't such a big deal, and that a rift could be resealed and a new gate put around it.

I really don't see anything in #276 (or anything in the Crayons of Time arc for that matter) that contradicts anything that was given in comic 96-115.

It is clear from every instance of terminology used from comic 276 on that these are gates that do not swing open and shut (remember The Plan of Xykon Redcloak is designed to use the Gate to try to harness/control The Snarl <purposefully leaving things vague for people who haven't read SoD>). And nothing in comic 96-115 actually suggests anything that says that these gates can be opened or shut either. Accessed, yes. Open or shut, no.

So it seems to me that the entire argument boils down to the fact that some people don't like the terminology that Rich used when he decided to call these things "Gates".

Fair enuf.

I suppose Rich could have called them Plugs or Stoppers or sumthin' else. But, honestly now, what sounds cooler? Dorukan's Gate or Dorukan's Plug? :smalltongue:

NOTE: In an attempt to keep this post from getting any longer than it already is, I was keeping my points focused to where the Gate was first introduced and when The Snarl was explained to all of us. I'm doing that to show that there is no real inconsistency between what we saw/heard about Dorukan's Gate when it was first shown and when we learned about the Snarl in all it's glory.

[skim172]

Yeah, it's stretching the dictionary definition pretty tight. But are you going to be the one who argues with an Epic Level Wizard that he isn't using his terminology quite correctly?

Didn't think so. :smalltongue:

Actually, since he's dead, I'm not really that intimidated. :smallwink:

And he may be an Epic Level Wizard, but I imagine he got lots of red ink and "Very poor - see me" from his English teachers.


To me, it's still a plot hole - I understand your point that "gate" isn't technically what we consider a gate and that it's more of a plug, but so far we have two instances of gates that both can be destroyed, further endangering the fabric of reality, and one that could be opened simply by a pure-hearted hero leaning on a big door on a breather between rounds. If Dorukan wants to experiment with the Snarl, then code it to his personal DNA or something. It all seems so ... hazardous.

While there was obviously some sort of barebones plot in play - Gate, Xykon, evil schemes - I still believe the whole extent of the story was still in the conception stage. And I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

It's a minor thing. I think the author, being a normal non-precognitive human, didn't have a full sense of where the story would eventually take him and that along the path of five hundred strips, his imagination and creativity have breathed life into the plot as it's gone along.

All stories require some suspension of disbelief - for example, how would a giant hobgoblin horde would be able to build fortresses and fortresses of legions when living in a barren wasteland? Where'd they get the resources for their weapons, their supplies? How could such a large horde move so quickly to reach Azure City without advance word? Even at force-march, such a large army would've had a very slow pace. They must've had to raid farms and villages for food on the way - not a single refugee managed to escape and travel their much quicker pace to the safety of Azure City?

But then, an ill-equipped gathering of a few hobbie villages lacking the element of surprise doesn't make for a good story.

In a story about magic and monsters in a world based on a fantasy role-playing game, I think suspension of disbelief might be a requisite.

[Porthos]

To me, it's still a plot hole - I understand your point that "gate" isn't technically what we consider a gate and that it's more of a plug, but so far we have two instances of gates that both can be destroyed, further endangering the fabric of reality, and one that could be opened simply by a pure-hearted hero leaning on a big door on a breather between rounds. If Dorukan wants to experiment with the Snarl, then code it to his personal DNA or something. It all seems so ... hazardous.

I still say that your confusing the protections around the gate with the gate itself (in regards to the "pure-hearted thing"), but whatever.

As for being able to be destroyed, what was The Order of the Rifts alternative? They couldn't find a way to get rid of the rifts in their entirety. All they could do was buttress the rips. Cover them in amber, if you will.

Just think of them as Big Giant Bandages. And unfortuantly, bandages can be ripped off (as was seen in Lirian's Gate and Soon's Gate).

Now should Dorukan used a different key to all of his personal sigils? Perhaps. But since we've never really seen his backstory, I don't think we can really judge him about his choice of usage as we don't know his alternatives. Remeber, Lirian was shown using tress to guard her gate, and the Sapphire Guard used thier own bodies to guard theirs. Neither seemed up to the task when all was said and done. :smallwink:

Also, consider this, if a person of "pure heart" had touched Dorukan's Gate with no baddies around, you know what would have happend? Absolutely nothing. Well, the sigil surrounding the gate would have been set to the "OFF" position. But nothing would actually happen to the gate itself. And I'm sure that Dorukan could have easily set it back to "ON" anytime he wanted.

So while I see your point, I don't see it as a hole in the structure of the plot. Or even a retcon. :smallwink:

[SadisticFishing]

It's the kind of gate to which you throw away the key.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

If I had been Dorukan, I would've inscribed the gate and all the walls with the words, "Don't touch gate except to destroy reality" in every language, dialect, and chicken-scratch I could think of, then some disembodied voices, robot tour guides, and some lawyers requiring signed affidavits and End-User License Agreements (fully read, with hundred-question quiz to test comprehension) before you even entered the dungeon.
What? You think that would stop people? Really, it would be more likely to get them to (http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/Do-not-run-this-script,-ever!.aspx) touch (http://www.damninteresting.com/?p=160) it (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SchmuckBait).

And in fact, that's the sort of thing that actually happened (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0118.html).

[Miklus]

I think the gates are like the hood of a car. Sometimes you need to open it for maintanage and checks. Simple as that.

Would you just close the gates permanently and hope everything works all right? The fate of the world depends on those seals. You have to check up on them once in a while, especially since it is new technology. They are like windows patch update mecanism. Because you just can't get it right the first time.

[Ancalagon]

If you have a problem with a "gate as a thing that also can open" and cannot combine it with the fact the Snarl should be locked in, i.e. that the gate is never again to be opened, see it this way:

A gate is a magic effect that has to be completed before it really works. So the "casting" and "preparation" of the "sealing magic" would be the "construction" of a gate around the rift and the "finishing of the magic spell" would be "the locking" of the so called "gate" (which could also be called "seal" (no confusion with Dorukans protection-seal, please), "wall", "lock", "padlock", or "rift-sealing-magic-effect-thing"... or whatever).

If you build a house, you do not build it with already locked doors/gates. You first build the wall, then the frame, then you insert the "gate", then you close and lock the gate. Call the process I just described "casting the rift-sealing spell" and your problems dissolve into thin air.

[fangthane]

What gate? :smallbiggrin:

I don't see it as a plot hole, since a name's just a name and obviously the gates are representative of additional barriers placed in the Snarl's path, whatever they're named.

Besides, perhaps it's simply an acknowledgement of the Gates' impermanence due to a mortal origin. Or an effort to avoid being accused of ripping off Jordan. Or any number of other, similar reasons. In any case it's a silly argument over semantics, since we know their basic properties:
- holds back (or somehow dissuades) the Snarl from pushing through the rift
- is destructible
- is (apparently) capable of being used for Redcloak/TDO's Plan (I say apparently, since we haven't actually seen the Plan executed yet)

Whether you call it a gate, a seal, a door, a portal, a keystone or whatever, changes nothing. Gates, portals and doors can be opened; seals can be cracked, keystones torn asunder; anything that can be made can be unmade.

[Morty]

I can't belive people are getting so worked up over this. Then again, this is an internet forum, so it's to be expected. I suppose some folks will jump at anything they can call a "plot hole".
Because really, what fricking difference does it make? If Dorukan and Lirian called them "walls" instead, then walls can be blown up, smashed, dug through or climbed over. Then the ritual wouldn't be referred to as "unlocking the gate" but "blowing up the wall".

[Aeon221]

I asked this question about a year back under some name I've since forgotten. But yeah, why a gate? Why not just lock the door and throw away the key?

Why did Dorukan make it so in order to open the gate, one had to be pure of heart? Couldn't he, with all his intellect, have imagined enough scenarios where a pure-hearted adventurer have been duped into touching the gate?


The sigil is just a zappy thing to keep people like Xykon away. Once the zappy thing goes down, the real work of actually using it begins.

It's like a fence around a building, and pure hearted folks are the key to the fence. They're not much good for the door itself.



And as for Xykon, what's with the zombie/goblin army? And the traps? Let them in, dammit, and when they walk into the gate room, hide behind a big wall and stick an ancient-looking post-it on the gate saying, "5000 xp, touch here."


The traps were most likely there for Xykon to hurt people with -- after all, it's pretty funny when Roy falls into one!

The goblins are there because they hang out with Xykon, and they do kind of need somewhere to sleep. And the zombies are there because zombifying people that piss him off is what Xykon does. What's the point of zombifying all those folks if you don't keep them around to fight for your amusement?

There's also the simple fact of Xykon having a flair for the dramatic -- good heroes make for good villains and all that. He's nothing if not a pastiche of classic villain archetypes, and those guys all have their minions, so why not him?



If I had been Dorukan, I would've inscribed the gate and all the walls with the words, "Don't touch gate except to destroy reality" in every language, dialect, and chicken-scratch I could think of, then some disembodied voices, robot tour guides, and some lawyers requiring signed affidavits and End-User License Agreements (fully read, with hundred-question quiz to test comprehension) before you even entered the dungeon.


So, in other words, you'd have planned for failure. Me, I'd have kept a huge legion of outdated monsters in my basement, and an amulet for controlling them.

You seem to be forgetting that Dorukan's defenses managed to keep Xykon from controlling the gate long after he himself was dead. I think that that counts as a resounding success.



But while it is a plot hole, it's one I'm willing to suspend my disbelief for. Because it did come before the Snarl story arc was thought up and I think retconning is absolutely ridiculous. And yes, the story would have little point without them.

What plot hole? A disagreement on semantics doesn't constitute a plot hole. Door, gate, they're just two words for "some sort of obstacle preventing egress".