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Night-breeze
2009-07-05, 10:44 AM
Hi everyone,

I am going to start a sea-based game, where every character is 14th level, with leadership feat and 250.000 to spend on ship and anything related to it. Most used supplement, for obvious reasons, is Stormwrack, and almost everyone is picking Elf Wingship (again, for obvious reasons).

Well, I want something different. My character is a druid (and that by itself is a major powerhouse...I can basically sink small ships on my own).

As for the ship, I am thinking about Greatship (60.000), with 8 to 12 gryphons/giant eagles with relative riders. The Greatship itself is a slow, low maneuverability. But it has a lot of space, hit points and slots for siege engines.

The basic idea of such a behemot would be to use flying scouts to see approaching ship before they see us, then strike from distance with the flying squad (that would be, the birdies, and people on smoke bottles). If they don't manage to sink the enemy without exposing themselves to danger, allow the enemy to come nearby and pound it with 1-2 long range siege magical machines, and if they really come close, unleash the full power of 12 light slots and 4 heavy slots of siege machines (arguably, 1-2 of these slots will have to be free to act as "launching" fields for the birds).

So, my request is: do you have any suggestions? Regarding bird equipment and ammunition (i have been thinking about flasks of alchemist fire, flaming bows, stones and so on), about the siege machines (I am looking for the +1 enhancement that gives the weapon doubled range, where was that?), and anything else that may come handy. I would have loved to give the ship immunity to fire via a dragon figurehead, but they are just too damn expensive.

Dixieboy
2009-07-05, 11:23 AM
I have one question.

What are you going to do if the enemy tries to ESCAPE instead of facing you?

only1doug
2009-07-05, 11:41 AM
I have one question.

What are you going to do if the enemy tries to ESCAPE instead of facing you?

I'd guess that he'll send out the bomber squadrons but I'm not sure about the relative speeds of his fliers and the enemy ships.

Regardless, he may be able to claim victory if the enemy flees rather than face him (until the enemies gang up on him anyway).

Xefas
2009-07-05, 11:51 AM
(I am looking for the +1 enhancement that gives the weapon doubled range, where was that?)\

Distance, from the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#distance). I think that's what you're looking for.

Night-breeze
2009-07-05, 11:53 AM
I have one question.

What are you going to do if the enemy tries to ESCAPE instead of facing you?

That's a problem, I know.
The Greatship's speed is slightly slower than the cargo ships, quite slower than the fast moving human ships and pitifully slower compared to the elf wingship.

If the enemy tries to run away, I can reach him with the squadron of bombers to harass him and burn his sails, in order to slow him down. Also, thanks to everfull sails (although they are bloody expensive for a ship with multiple masts) I always have strong wind. Indeed a good tactic, if an enemy approaches, would be to avoid attacking him as soon as he enters my radius of activity...wait till he reaches half of it and then act.

I am reasonably certain that gryphons and giant eagles are faster than ships.

The idea is not to have the classic fast moving ship that can catch anyone...it's more about sea control.

But you have a point, I need to find some way to make it faster. Aside for wind control, is there any other way? (for druids, that is).

Night-breeze
2009-07-05, 11:56 AM
Distance, from the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#distance). I think that's what you're looking for.

Huh...thanks. It was in the most obvious place, after all.

So, what should I put it on...:belkar:...a siege engine with long reach, and bursting flaming ammunition to kill crew and set ships on fire...muahaha....

Xefas
2009-07-05, 11:58 AM
But you have a point, I need to find some way to make it faster. Aside for wind control, is there any other way? (for druids, that is).

A level 14 Druid in a seafaring campaign? Need to move faster? Need your enemy to move slower? Need everything to devolve into mayhem and utterly annihilate the competition?

Control the Weather (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/controlWeather.htm) for 8d12 hours per casting.

Night-breeze
2009-07-05, 12:05 PM
A level 14 Druid in a seafaring campaign? Need to move faster? Need your enemy to move slower? Need everything to devolve into mayhem and utterly annihilate the competition?

Control the Weather (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/controlWeather.htm) for 8d12 hours per casting.

I already have that in mind :D
I am just wondering (always been confused about this) do weather control // control winds move with you, or are they stationary?

(btw, funny off-topic. In italian, "winds" is spelled the same as "twenty". this led to hilarious situations in which the druid cast the spell and insisted on wanting his next roll to be considered a natural 20 :D)


The druid already packs the full punch of control weather, control winds, summon elementals, wind walls, water control and so on. I am also giving up animal companion for water elemental companon, from complete mage. He is to stay underwater, and when told to do so, go and pound the enemy ship from underneath.

Xefas
2009-07-05, 12:13 PM
It's a 3 mile (in the case of being a Druid) circle that's always centered on you for the duration. It moves with you at all times.

If it were stationary, the Area entry would say "Emanation" like in Zone of Truth.

EDIT: That's Control Weather, but Control Winds is the same principle. It doesn't say its stationary anywhere in the description, and its not an Emanation, so it stays with you.

Mr.Moron
2009-07-05, 12:35 PM
At that level, I've got to wonder if ships are even a sensible way to go about business. Mundane vessels & weapons seemed destined for fail.


At 14th level, you've got 7th level spells. That's a Greater Water Elemental. Easily overturns vessels up to 105' long. Your greatship is safe, but not much else is. Certainly not those comparatively tiny wing ships. Hell, you can get those with huge elementals which you can summon in abundance.

...and that's just the first core spell solution that came to mind.

Really, there has to be better ocean-dominating solutions than getting on a silly tub-toy and throwing rocks at your enemies.

EDIT: Re-Reading your post. Is that money you can ONLY spend on a ship? Or, can you choose to invest elsewhere?

Xefas
2009-07-05, 12:44 PM
Looking around in other books for useful spells, I came upon the Flying Dutchman trick from Pirates of the Caribbean. It's called Submerge Ship, a 7th level spell from the Spell Compendium. Allows one touched ship, for 1/hr per level, and all crew on it, to sail along underwater unhindered.

Figured you might want to know. Gives you a way of sneaking up on unsuspecting ships, and a quick getaway, seeing as how its hard to attack things with conventional weaponry that are entirely underwater (and your water elementals will be more at home defending the ship if its underwater).

Djinn_in_Tonic
2009-07-05, 12:59 PM
For 90,000gp, the Lightning Turbine (Arms and Equipment Guide) does the following:

-Doubles the speed of the vehicle (or increases it to 90ft/round, whichever is greater).
-Allows the vehicle to ignore any weather-related penalties to speed.

Haven
2009-07-05, 01:04 PM
Looking around in other books for useful spells, I came upon the Flying Dutchman trick from Pirates of the Caribbean. It's called Submerge Ship, a 7th level spell from the Spell Compendium. Allows one touched ship, for 1/hr per level, and all crew on it, to sail along underwater unhindered.

Figured you might want to know. Gives you a way of sneaking up on unsuspecting ships, and a quick getaway, seeing as how its hard to attack things with conventional weaponry that are entirely underwater (and your water elementals will be more at home defending the ship if its underwater).

"We all live on a medieval submarine, a medieval submarine, a medieval submarine..."

Ganurath
2009-07-05, 01:07 PM
Well, if we're citing Arms and Equipment, we may as well just have a Keelboat sporting Planar Sails and a Cloud Keel. Who needs the Flying Dutchman when you can have the Weatherlight?

Radar
2009-07-05, 01:11 PM
I take it, you are going to form a fleet with your friend's Elf Wingships (which as you say are faster then any normal ship). So i think between their ships and your air support, letting anyone escape shouldn't be a problem.

@Mr.Moron
The problem with summons is that they have to stay in close range, which renders them useless in a sea battle. Actually there aren't many spells that work on very large distances, so mundane weaponry (as mundane as griffin bombers go) starts to be a reasonable option, since visibility is quite good on a flat featureless body of water. It also would be hard to render a whole ship invisible, so there aren't many ways to close in without attracting attention early.

Other then that: there was a spell or something that made the ship submerge harmlesly. I can't recall any details, but it would be a fun.

I would recommend protecting the ship with Anticipate Teleport to avoid nasty surprises and Mordenkain's Private Sanctum on your war room would be nice as well.

Cicciograna
2009-07-05, 01:14 PM
Hi everyone,
The basic idea of such a behemot would be to use flying scouts to see approaching ship before they see us, then strike from distance with the flying squad (that would be, the birdies, and people on smoke bottles). If they don't manage to sink the enemy without exposing themselves to danger, allow the enemy to come nearby and pound it with 1-2 long range siege magical machines, and if they really come close, unleash the full power of 12 light slots and 4 heavy slots of siege machines (arguably, 1-2 of these slots will have to be free to act as "launching" fields for the birds).

Hearing a buzz in my ears...USS Nimitz...aircarriers images coming to my mind...



(btw, funny off-topic. In italian, "winds" is spelled the same as "twenty". this led to hilarious situations in which the druid cast the spell and insisted on wanting his next roll to be considered a natural 20 :D)

Assumo quindi che tu sia italiano...:smallsmile:

Ganurath
2009-07-05, 01:15 PM
Veil of Obscurity: Weightless magic item that disguises a vehicle as part of the surrounding terrain. My idle musings earlier aside, combining this with Cloud Keel on a Keelboat gives you a stealth airship that comes in under budget.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2009-07-05, 01:42 PM
Well, if we're citing Arms and Equipment, we may as well just have a Keelboat sporting Planar Sails and a Cloud Keel. Who needs the Flying Dutchman when you can have the Weatherlight?

Unfortunately, no one but Gerard is cool enough for the Weatherlight. Also, his party lacks an appropriately named Goblin.

Mr.Moron
2009-07-05, 01:51 PM
@Mr.Moron
The problem with summons is that they have to stay in close range, which renders them useless in a sea battle.


This is untrue

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#conjuration


The creature or object must appear within the spell’s range, but it does not have to remain within the range.


With a swim speed of 120ft

and



A creature with a swim speed can move through water at its indicated speed without making Swim checks. It gains a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform a special action or avoid a hazard. The creature always can choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered when swimming. Such a creature can use the run action while swimming, provided that it swims in a straight line.


This means that a water elemental can cover 480ft in a round. Or in the 14 round duration of your summon spell it can get to a target around 1.2 miles away. If you're using the huge elementals, rather the greater ones (or have metamagic school focus, or a metamagic rod of extend) you can get that up to 2.5 miles.

If you're getting really crazy and have Ashbound summoning (though that's setting specific and likely not an a factor for most games. Unless your DM allows those sources outside setting, some do), you're looking at sinking ships at a range of 5 miles.

EDIT: (Also, since water elemental ship-sinking is based off HD, rather than size your own water elemental form in 2 levels is quite adept at sinking crap.)

Alleine
2009-07-05, 02:01 PM
No one has mentioned it yet, but if you have access to the Eberron Campaign setting then you can make your Greatship out of Soarwood. Doubles the move move speed, but unfortunately costs a ridiculous sum of money. Your ship would end up costing 240,000 because soarwood is so expensive.

If that's a little too rich for your taste, then there is another way to boost speed from Eberron. Elemental Rings. There's a ship in the Explorer's Handbook called the Stormship, which is basically smaller version of the greatship with a bound lightning elemental allowing it to travel at 8 miles per hour due to the constant strong winds generated by the elemental ring.

Of course, if you don't have access to the Eberron books this is all pointless and you should just ignore me :smalltongue:

Adumbration
2009-07-05, 02:16 PM
There are some good items in Draconomicon, namely Lair wards. See for an example Veil of Obscurity, which you could easily use to mask your ship as a merchant. Tornado's eye would also be pretty cool.

Radar
2009-07-05, 02:18 PM
Accurate information
My bad - i took spell range for summon's range.

Bayar
2009-07-05, 02:27 PM
Again from Eberron, get an air elemental bound to a tower atop your deck and you will have alot of speed (20 knots afaik). Or get an AIRSHIP for 90 K .

Mr.Moron
2009-07-05, 02:28 PM
My bad - i took spell range for summon's range.

Hey, that just means one very deadly weapon in the arsenal.

Looking at the sizes in Stormwrack only Greatships & Galleys can withstand water elemental Torpedoes (going with the big boy was a very sound decision on the OPs part). I think efforts should be focused on taking out those bigger threats, since everything is simply a complete non-factor.

Night-breeze
2009-07-05, 03:42 PM
Whoa, thanks everyone for the creativity :D


At that level, I've got to wonder if ships are even a sensible way to go about business. Mundane vessels & weapons seemed destined for fail.

True. At the end, apparently the ship with the nastiest spellcaster wins. However, NPC clerics, wizards and artificers are apparenly very rare (and they are banned as PC classes).

That said, that's the reason for me choosing greatship (aside for the necessity of space for the birdies): while I hope I can neutralize nasty spellcasters, I prefer the ship to be a big resistant giant, rather than a small, elegant, enchanted and so on vehicle which goes down at the first cometstrike it eats.

The 250.000 gp can be spent on the ship and anything directly related to it: gryphon eggs, bows for the crew, and so on. They are not supposed to end up in things that the PC will directly use.


Submerge Ship, a 7th level spell from the Spell Compendium.
AAAH! I remembered that spell, but thought it was only for wizards. So...underwater traveling carrier...you can't get much more crazy than that :D


For 90,000(USD 126.08) gp, the Lightning Turbine (Arms and Equipment Guide) does the following:

-Doubles the speed of the vehicle (or increases it to 90ft/round, whichever is greater).
-Allows the vehicle to ignore any weather-related penalties to speed.
This is extremely good, and I would be dead set at buying it...however it conflicts slightly with veil of obscurity. I can keep a thunderstorm all day long, but that's not really stealthy, is it? Still, I could see ways to use them together...

As for the Weatherlight...heh...I have leadership and could take a goblin, but
1) He was charming, yet quite annoying. My PC would probably strangle him...
2) Flying ship are extremely cool, but I like the idea of a carrier more for this campaign


Assumo quindi che tu sia italiano...
Si. E il druido in questione ero io, ovviamente :D


This means that a water elemental can cover 480ft in a round. Or in the 14 round duration of your summon spell it can get to a target around 1.2 miles away. If you're using the huge elementals, rather the greater ones (or have metamagic school focus, or a metamagic rod of extend) you can get that up to 2.5 miles.

If you're getting really crazy and have Ashbound summoning (though that's setting specific and likely not an a factor for most games. Unless your DM allows those sources outside setting, some do), you're looking at sinking ships at a range of 5 miles.

EDIT: (Also, since water elemental ship-sinking is based off HD, rather than size your own water elemental form in 2 levels is quite adept at sinking crap.)

Yup, that was the idea behind the elemental companion :D
Besides, even if the enemy ship is too big to sink because of the vortex, he can always pound at it's bottom...it's not like it is made of steel.

And with that...we've got bombers, we've got fighers, we've got guns...now we have even torpedoes. This is becoming scary.


Regarding the suggestions about Eberron, I have not asked the DM, but I get the feeling that it doesn't go well with the campaign and pc flavor. The druid is unlike to enslave elementals in a vehicle, and in the campaign world elemental vehicles are not as common or "cheap" as in eberron.


An idea to stop incoming elemental torpedos would be to get animal sentries around the ship. They could get in the path of the "running" water creature, forcing them to stop, and thus giving the the time and alert to get there and deal with the threat.


So, as for now we are looking at:
60000 - greatship
30000 - 5 gryphon eggs and 5 giant eagle eggs (my PC has raised and trained them)
25000 - Veil of obscurity
90000 - Lightning Turbine (Should I or shouldn't I? On one hand, the only way to sink this beast would be a serious ganging of enemy warships or monsters/high level enemies. From that point of view, enhanced speed to escape would be great. But then, I could submerge the ship to escape (however, if said monsters are marine, that would hardly be a viable escape route).

So we are looking at 45k money remaining (135k without lightning turbines). Looking at the cost of the siege engines I want, perhaps I should give up the lightning turbines...sigh).

On the A&EG, I found this cute little thingie: Saddlebags of Holdings. They cost 5000gp and can contain up to 500 pounds total. Given the fact that the druid can create lots of stone in his free days, no supplies are needed. Buy two of these, design two bird to be the real bombers and each of their riders can hurl down 10 stones of 50 pounds each...without spending money for ammunition.

Also...Draconomicon...I should have a look at those lair wards, don't remember them at all.

arguskos
2009-07-05, 03:45 PM
Well, if we're citing Arms and Equipment, we may as well just have a Keelboat sporting Planar Sails and a Cloud Keel. Who needs the Flying Dutchman when you can have the Weatherlight?
Personally, I'm a bigger fan of the Predator. :smallamused:

Myrmex
2009-07-05, 03:57 PM
Go for the lightning turbine. Having your giant warship suddenly take off super fast and underwater? Oh yeah.

You should also look at the spell Phantom Stag, from SpC. It's like Phantom Steed, but for druids and better in every way. The best thing is that it lasts hours/level. It gets flight at 14th level. 5th level spell.

Emy
2009-07-05, 04:36 PM
This airship (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3630.msg127088#msg127088) might give you some ideas. (I think the Earth Keel might be an illegal upgrade for an airship though.)

Obviously, you don't have that much wealth (unless you have everyone take Landlord) but some of those items would work just fine for an oceangoing ship.

herrhauptmann
2009-07-05, 04:42 PM
From Champions of Valor, there's a pegasus rider prestigeclass that is ok.

The big advantage to it, is that as a player, you recieve your first suit of armor, and it's upgrades, for free.
DM might not allow that for your cohorts and followers, especially since you're supposed to be a native to a certain country.

Altima
2009-07-05, 04:52 PM
Since it seems you're gearing up for war, it might be better to tell us the situation and what you expect to fight.

Because a particularly sadistic DM will enjoy tearing your perfect warship apart piece by piece.

I'm assuming you're in a high magic world, given all the items you seem to have access to. Though that doesn't really make much sense, given that NPC spellcasters are rare (and your DM kept the DRUID but kicked out clerics, wizards, and artificers? D: Unfair!).

Like, are you forming a fleet with your friends? What are they thinking about taking? What is your base of operations/port? Who are the major NPCs in the waters where you're going? What sorts of things do they have access to?

Also, what's your backup plan in case your gryphons and eagles get killed?

only1doug
2009-07-05, 05:06 PM
Since it seems you're gearing up for war, it might be better to tell us the situation and what you expect to fight.

Because a particularly sadistic DM will enjoy tearing your perfect warship apart piece by piece.

I'm assuming you're in a high magic world, given all the items you seem to have access to. Though that doesn't really make much sense, given that NPC spellcasters are rare (and your DM kept the DRUID but kicked out clerics, wizards, and artificers? D: Unfair!).

Like, are you forming a fleet with your friends? What are they thinking about taking? What is your base of operations/port? Who are the major NPCs in the waters where you're going? What sorts of things do they have access to?

Also, what's your backup plan in case your gryphons and eagles get killed?

my impression was that the game would be player vs player, ship battles.

so the fight would be him vs his friends (hopefully one at a time).

Night-breeze
2009-07-05, 05:17 PM
my impression was that the game would be player vs player, ship battles.

so the fight would be him vs his friends (hopefully one at a time).

I guess that clarifications are needed. The premise of the game is that we already know each other (whether it is friendship, alliance or blood feud), and in a world where even though mages are oft present on ships, storms still claim lots of lives. And there's a new storm that cannot be abated with magic: it is quite afar in the sea, but it's growing. Who is going to explore and search for answers (you have one guess, and no, calling home is allowed).

Thus, preparing for sea battles is not necessarily the best idea. It would be perhaps better to prepare to defend the ship against hurricane winds. But really...the character is a freaking 14th level druid. He is not going to spend money over something he thinks he can easily prepare for with just spells.

Besides, a greatship is not the easiest think to sink in a storm.

Let's just assume that on the other side of the storm screen there's a massive invading army from *insert ocean-styled abyss level here* :smallamused:

Night-breeze
2009-07-05, 05:24 PM
(and your DM kept the DRUID but kicked out clerics, wizards, and artificers? D: Unfair!).

But there be sorcerers! And they get 5 bonus feats too, meh -_-. Meanwhile, poor druids are not even allowed to keep their wildshape (they have to trade it for something else). Yeah, yeah, I know. Druids are more powerful than sorcerers anyway, but with that boost they should be on par.

Yeah, it seems that sorcerers are there for the arcane spellcasting and clerics for the divine spellcasting. That's more or less it.



Also, what's your backup plan in case your gryphons and eagles get killed?

Tough cookie. Assuming that everything fails and they got killed by a marauding dragon that I don't manage to intercept in time, I'll probably head to the nearest island/continent and use *5th level druidical spell, senses nature up to 1 mile/lvl* to find a nest of birdies and then recruit them, if I can. In the meanwhile, I still got a greatship with nasty artillery, a water elemental and a pissed druid.

Xefas
2009-07-05, 05:26 PM
Let's just assume that on the other side of the storm screen there's a massive invading army from *insert ocean-styled abyss level here* :smallamused:

You're probably thinking of layer #89, the Shadowsea, ruled by Dagon, Prince of the Depths.
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad91/bluejanus/98445.jpg
When Dagon tells you to prepare to be ravaged by his colossal fiendish kraken what comes from the dark depths, he's not making clever innuendo.

EDIT: Or am I the only one who makes that kind of innuendo? :smallconfused:

Da Pwnzlord
2009-07-05, 07:19 PM
You could make a perpetual motion machine out of bags of holding and a paddlewheel. It's totally cheese, but it might work.

Doc Roc
2009-07-05, 07:53 PM
Well, if we're citing Arms and Equipment, we may as well just have a Keelboat sporting Planar Sails and a Cloud Keel. Who needs the Flying Dutchman when you can have the Weatherlight?

+1!

Oh damn but these are so fun! Seriously. Don't run, leave.

herrhauptmann
2009-07-05, 10:51 PM
Well, if we're citing Arms and Equipment, we may as well just have a Keelboat sporting Planar Sails and a Cloud Keel. Who needs the Flying Dutchman when you can have the Weatherlight?

What do those do?

Ganurath
2009-07-06, 12:57 AM
What do those do?Cloud Keel makes the ship fly at 40 ft (clumsy). If the ship is wind powered, it can use the sails if they provide faster movement.

Planar Sails let the whole bloody ship go to another plane of existence. It takes 5 minutes and a DC 20 Knowledge (the planes) check, but the two together grant access to the following planes without need for wards against the environment:The Material Plane, all three Transitive Planes, the Elemental Plane of Air, Celestia, Bytopia, Elysium, The Beastlands, Arborea, Ysgard, Limbo, Pandemonium, myriad layers of The Abyss, Carceri, The Gray Waste (decent place to bury loot,) Gehenna, all but a few layers of the Nine Hells, Acheron, maybe Mechanus if zoning permits aren't an issue, Arcadia, and sweet Mouqol the Outlands!

Radar
2009-07-06, 02:46 AM
Now that i think about the elemental torpedoes, it would be really good to have some sort of a radar or sonar, so you can unsummon or otherwise deal with them them in time. I can't find anything decent tough.

Ganurath
2009-07-06, 02:52 AM
For about 15K you can get an automatic reset touch trigger fireball trap with the trigger inside the ship and the trap aimed outside. You could even put it on a turret mount, if you want to be fancy. Toss on 5K, and you could double the range. Just a thought.

Edit: I just realized that lightning bolt has a very finite range of 120 ft, whereas at the CL 10 this Enlarged Fireball Turret will employ, will sport a range of 1,600 feet. Make sure your gunner has a solid Spot check!

only1doug
2009-07-06, 01:39 PM
I guess that clarifications are needed. The premise of the game is that we already know each other (whether it is friendship, alliance or blood feud), and in a world where even though mages are oft present on ships, storms still claim lots of lives. And there's a new storm that cannot be abated with magic: it is quite afar in the sea, but it's growing. Who is going to explore and search for answers (you have one guess, and no, calling home is allowed).

Thus, preparing for sea battles is not necessarily the best idea. It would be perhaps better to prepare to defend the ship against hurricane winds. But really...the character is a freaking 14th level druid. He is not going to spend money over something he thinks he can easily prepare for with just spells.

Besides, a greatship is not the easiest think to sink in a storm.

Let's just assume that on the other side of the storm screen there's a massive invading army from *insert ocean-styled abyss level here* :smallamused:

Ok, now I think you definately need a Lightning Turbine; Able to ignore weather related penalties to speed and a speed boost during storms is too good to turn down when the enemy is hiding in a storm.

How much bigger is your ship than those of your allies? can you act as a carrier for them too, use your allies vessels as scouts / skirmishers / life rafts when the big battle comes? (I don't have stormwrack)

HamHam
2009-07-06, 02:08 PM
Now that i think about the elemental torpedoes, it would be really good to have some sort of a radar or sonar, so you can unsummon or otherwise deal with them them in time. I can't find anything decent tough.

For long range targeting, Scry or other divination effects via spells or magic items is the obvious solution.

For defense, aren't there magic items that repel a specific type of elemental? Or maybe a Cleric follower with a domain ability to turn/rebuke water elementals?

VirOath
2009-07-06, 03:03 PM
As far as Bombers go, I just got the feeling of Str boosting items and Endless Wands (The ones that have a X/day instead of charges, better investment.)

Use this for Creation spells, conjure up a bunch of rocks in the air have have them drop on the opposing ships. About as good as you can get to reusable mundane damage.

Weapons of Elemental Summoning in the MIC are also good I guess. The riders can summon an elemental of that type near them and send them down to cause havoc for a bit. Doing it with Fire Elementals would destroy most ships, and let you use the cheapest one at a +1 bonus to the weapon. Dive in, release, fly out and watch the ship burn.

If you want as mundane as you can get, buy Ballista Bolts. Get four handles built into the sides. Fill it up with Oil or something, and drop them on the enemy ship from the sky.

Fendalus
2009-07-06, 03:09 PM
Unless you are dead set on using Giant Eagles (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/eagleGiant.htm) and Griffons (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/griffon.htm), there are still other options for your air attack force.

Hippogriffs (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/hippogriff.htm) do only slightly less damage than the eagles (D4+4 vs D6+4 claw), but fly 20ft/rd faster. Pegasi (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/pegasus.htm) do slightly less damage than Hippogriffs and eagles (D3+2 bite as opposed to D8+2), but move 1.5 times as fast as the eagles and have 8 more HP (34 vs 26). Both of these would be good for a scout/light fighter role due to their speed advantage.

Giant Owls (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/owlGiant.htm), although slower than eagles and griffons, would present the option of night attacks with the same damage as the eagles.

Griffons, with their high amount of HP (59) and ability to pounce (full attack after charge), should be used as heavy fighters and/or bombers.

Eagles seem to just fall behind the other, more specialized options. Griffons seem to be a great choice though.


It might also be a good idea to get some sharks or other sea critters as a close in defensive force, but it seems the summoned Water elementals are better than them in every way.

Ganurath
2009-07-06, 03:24 PM
200,000 for Cloud Keel
+25,000 for Veil of Obscurity
+3,000 for the Keelboat itself

This lives 22,000 for you to work with, if you want a ship that hides in a cloud, raining destruction from the skies. A forward belly gun of an enlarged fireball trap with CL 10 would normally cost 20,000, but the price can be reduced by lowering the Search DC drastically. It's not like you're trying to hide the ship's BFG, are you?

Alternatively, forsake the Cloud Keel in favor of several of such guns and a Lightning Turbine. Seriously, who needs a bunch of fat birds when you can throw around fireballs like Jaya Ballard?

Mr.Moron
2009-07-06, 06:01 PM
On the matter of flying units, to load up on your carriers.

MM2 lets you add a Warbeast template to animals, and have them trained.

Dire Bats, are relatively low HD animals. While not smart enough to act on their own, they're cheap tough and can take a medium rider aloft.

A Warbeast Direbat would have the following stats*

Cost: 475gp
Light Load: 266lbs


Size/Type: Large Animal
Hit Dice: 5d8+25 (47 hp)
Initiative: +6
Speed: 30 ft. (4 squares), fly 50 ft. (good)
Armor Class: 20 (-1 size, +6 Dex, +5 natural), touch 15, flat-footed 14
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+10
Attack: Bite +8 melee (1d8+5)
Full Attack: Bite +8 melee (1d8+5)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: —
Special Qualities: Blindsense 40 ft.
Saves: Fort +7, Ref +10, Will +6
Abilities: Str 20, Dex 22, Con 20, Int 2, Wis 16, Cha 6
Skills: Hide +4, Listen +13*, Move Silently +11, Spot +9*
Feats: Alertness, Stealthy
Environment: Temperate deserts
Organization: Solitary or colony (5-8)
Challenge Rating: 2
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 5-12 HD (Large)
Level Adjustment: —


*You'd have to double check these your self, this was a very quick addition of the template. I probably made mistakes.

Again, not intelligent, but they can take a rider who can direct them like you would any other war-trained animal. That means can be controlled in combat just like a warhorse (they don't bolt etc..).

Getting these with some level 1-2 warriors on them (you'll have plenty from leadership) are cheaper than those fancy magical beasts.

Their load is low-ish, but if you use light riders (Elves, Jokey types) you can get a decent an okay amount of ordinance on there.

EDIT: It also works on vermin. I only chose Dire Bats because they're the cheapest core large flyers that don't need HD advancement (unless I'm missing something).

It might be worth looking into if there are vermin from some other source that fly and have some kind of innate ranged attack.

Flickerdart
2009-07-06, 06:07 PM
Could you not make them take the feat Reinforced Wings to let them fly at Medium encumberance?

Mr.Moron
2009-07-06, 06:08 PM
Could you not make them take the feat Reinforced Wings to let them fly at Medium encumberance?

You'd have to advance them by HD 1, or replace an existing feat but yes it is possible. I was trying to keep it to strictly just adding the template as possible. If we can advance by HD that really opens things up.

EDIT: The extra HD would add another 75gp to the cost of each bat.
EDIT(Again): Assuming that's what the feat does. I'm not familiar with it off the top of my head. Source?
EDIT(#3): Yes, if we can advance them or replace an existing feat they do qualify.

EDIT(#4): Rocks seem like a good a weapon of choice for cheap massed flyers. Get high enough up and you can carpet an area with smaller projectiles.They will not be pin-point accurate by any means, but when you're aiming at a huge area like a boat a bunch are bound to land somewhere relevant.

Falling object damage gets pretty nasty. If they're plating their decks in adamatine or the like, you might run into the "Ineffective Weapon" problem(Strictly speaking the average damage would get past the hardness, but this is a case where that clause might get called over the standard damage.). Plain old hunks of stone or iron should do just fine vs most construction materials I think.

Myrmex
2009-07-06, 10:38 PM
Unless you are dead set on using Giant Eagles (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/eagleGiant.htm) and Griffons (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/griffon.htm), there are still other options for your air attack force.

Hippogriffs (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/hippogriff.htm) do only slightly less damage than the eagles (D4+4 vs D6+4 claw), but fly 20ft/rd faster. Pegasi (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/pegasus.htm) do slightly less damage than Hippogriffs and eagles (D3+2 bite as opposed to D8+2), but move 1.5 times as fast as the eagles and have 8 more HP (34 vs 26). Both of these would be good for a scout/light fighter role due to their speed advantage.

Giant Owls (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/owlGiant.htm), although slower than eagles and griffons, would present the option of night attacks with the same damage as the eagles.

Griffons, with their high amount of HP (59) and ability to pounce (full attack after charge), should be used as heavy fighters and/or bombers.

Eagles seem to just fall behind the other, more specialized options. Griffons seem to be a great choice though.


It might also be a good idea to get some sharks or other sea critters as a close in defensive force, but it seems the summoned Water elementals are better than them in every way.

It would likely be best to keep all of said creatures out of the way, and use for actual bombing- dropping things onto other things. Giant Eagles, Griffons, and Hippogriffs all have the same strength score (18), so going with Hippogriffs would probably be best.


On the matter of flying units, to load up on your carriers.

MM2 lets you add a Warbeast template to animals, and have them trained.

Dire Bats, are relatively low HD animals. While not smart enough to act on their own, they're cheap tough and can take a medium rider aloft.

A Warbeast Direbat would have the following stats*

Cost: 475gp
Light Load: 266lbs


Size/Type: Large Animal
Hit Dice: 5d8+25 (47 hp)
Initiative: +6
Speed: 30 ft. (4 squares), fly 50 ft. (good)
Armor Class: 20 (-1 size, +6 Dex, +5 natural), touch 15, flat-footed 14
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+10
Attack: Bite +8 melee (1d8+5)
Full Attack: Bite +8 melee (1d8+5)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: —
Special Qualities: Blindsense 40 ft.
Saves: Fort +7, Ref +10, Will +6
Abilities: Str 20, Dex 22, Con 20, Int 2, Wis 16, Cha 6
Skills: Hide +4, Listen +13*, Move Silently +11, Spot +9*
Feats: Alertness, Stealthy
Environment: Temperate deserts
Organization: Solitary or colony (5-8)
Challenge Rating: 2
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 5-12 HD (Large)
Level Adjustment: —


*You'd have to double check these your self, this was a very quick addition of the template. I probably made mistakes.

Again, not intelligent, but they can take a rider who can direct them like you would any other war-trained animal. That means can be controlled in combat just like a warhorse (they don't bolt etc..).

Getting these with some level 1-2 warriors on them (you'll have plenty from leadership) are cheaper than those fancy magical beasts.

Their load is low-ish, but if you use light riders (Elves, Jokey types) you can get a decent an okay amount of ordinance on there.

EDIT: It also works on vermin. I only chose Dire Bats because they're the cheapest core large flyers that don't need HD advancement (unless I'm missing something).

It might be worth looking into if there are vermin from some other source that fly and have some kind of innate ranged attack.

Warbeast dire bats are even better for dropping things, as they have 20 str, and are the same size.

Mr.Moron
2009-07-06, 10:53 PM
Warbeast dire bats are even better for dropping things, as they have 20 str, and are the same size.

They're also subject to animal growth. Which, with a 14minute duration is long enough for a short bombing mission against a target within reasonable range.

7 Bats per casting, each (with the increase strength and size) carrying up 932lbs. That's enough for a rider and a massive 800lb hard object of some sort.

I'm not aware of a way to pump up magical beasts that easily.

EDIT: Or a **** ton of smaller objects.

Night-breeze
2009-07-06, 11:17 PM
Unless you are dead set on using Giant Eagles (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/eagleGiant.htm) and Griffons (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/griffon.htm), there are still other options for your air attack force.

Hippogriffs (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/hippogriff.htm) do only slightly less damage than the eagles (D4+4 vs D6+4 claw), but fly 20ft/rd faster. Pegasi (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/pegasus.htm) do slightly less damage than Hippogriffs and eagles (D3+2 bite as opposed to D8+2), but move 1.5 times as fast as the eagles and have 8 more HP (34 vs 26). Both of these would be good for a scout/light fighter role due to their speed advantage.

Giant Owls (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/owlGiant.htm), although slower than eagles and griffons, would present the option of night attacks with the same damage as the eagles.

Griffons, with their high amount of HP (59) and ability to pounce (full attack after charge), should be used as heavy fighters and/or bombers.

Eagles seem to just fall behind the other, more specialized options. Griffons seem to be a great choice though.


It might also be a good idea to get some sharks or other sea critters as a close in defensive force, but it seems the summoned Water elementals are better than them in every way.

Most excellent call. Eagles are indeed subpar, but then I somewhat completely forgot of the fact that pegasi and hippogriffs exist. Funny thing is, their eggs are even less expensive...

Among these, it seems to me that hippos are the best...amazing speed, 18 strength. Their capabilty as aereal fighters is probably not the most relevant part here: if someone gets in air to fight them, it will probably important enough to be taken up by me...and with an extended wind walk active all day long I'll probably be there as escort.

I may not take giant owls, but the idea of night runs is very good: one of the biggest problems of these bombing runs is that the birdies are not going to be able to go down and take precise shots because of archer fire. At night, just setting fire on the target will illuminate them and will make bombardment possible. At the same time, unless they are able to illumiate a very large area, they won't be able to retaliate.


Now, warbeast dire bats...those are just wicked, especially with the animal growth and massive stones. I'll be taking at least one metamagic rod of extend spells, greater. One charge for wind walk, and one charge for the animal growth assured. So, make that 28 minutes. Furthermore, as soon as I get some precious exp, I'll be able to awaken some of them...in the sudden maximized, empowered way. A dire bat with 18+ intelligence is good on his own and a valuable addition to carrier crew. Furthermore, awaken grants them 2 bonus hit dies, thus possibly a bonus feat.

Speaking about bonus feats, given the fact that I am going to train them since they are in egg-form, I will be probably allowed to change the standard feats. Reinforced wings seems a good idea.

Now, let's speak about bombardment range. (sorry, I'll be using metrics...yeah, yeah, damn europeans). Hippos go at 100ft (30m) per action, thus 200ft (60m) round when not encumbered. Say that hippos can fly for 8 hours a day, like a normal traveler. Let's say 3 hours to get somewhere, 3 hours to get back, and 2 hours to be spent in whatever way is deemed necessary.

That's a freaking range of 60m*10*60*3 = 108 kilometers!!! (67 miles). And that's without even tiring them. If we assume 4 hours to get there, sink the ship and 4 hours to return, tiring a little bit, that range extends to 144 km (90miles). Not bad at all.

Assuming that I get the lightning turbine (and I increasingly think that I should), that leaves me with a small pouch of money...I can at most buy one nasty weapon (perhaps a great bombard with +1 and distance enhancement) and then ... umm... "confiscate" siege weapons from pirates...


Speaking about how to produce ammo for the bombers: stone wall. Truth to be told, stone wall has to "grow" attached to stone, but it doesn't say it has to be natural stone...I can keep a smal platform and summon the stone wall (which I can shape however I want, even in ragged small objects), so that it easily breaks away from the platform.

Or I could just throw sharks at them.

Juggernaut1981
2009-07-06, 11:43 PM
@Dropping Big Heavy Things on Them (TM)

Let me introduce to you, the joy of combining Physics and Magic...
100m in the air, Summon L-size Earth Elemental... it weighs probably enough to sink the ship on its own and as it plummets to the deck it will likely punch a hold clean through it before it digs into the ocean floor to avoid being wet for too long.

@Air support
I think your options for attacking enemy ships should be predominantly fire-related. Dire Bats + Alchemist's Fire (or maybe some other kind of burning cannon-type object) represent your best chance to cripple the ship, its crew members and otherwise cause general havoc.


Personally I would have my "D&D Submarine Nimitz" be manned by Giant Owls. Me & Elementals handle daytime, squadrons of Giant Owls with Alchemist's Fire handle nights. Any time when its too bad to be flying is the best time to be using Water Elementals.

Raenir Salazar
2009-07-06, 11:48 PM
No one has mentioned it yet, but if you have access to the Eberron Campaign setting then you can make your Greatship out of Soarwood. Doubles the move move speed, but unfortunately costs a ridiculous sum of money. Your ship would end up costing 240,000 because soarwood is so expensive.

If that's a little too rich for your taste, then there is another way to boost speed from Eberron. Elemental Rings. There's a ship in the Explorer's Handbook called the Stormship, which is basically smaller version of the greatship with a bound lightning elemental allowing it to travel at 8 miles per hour due to the constant strong winds generated by the elemental ring.

Of course, if you don't have access to the Eberron books this is all pointless and you should just ignore me :smalltongue:

Robillard on Capt. Deudermont's ship does that.

Alleine
2009-07-06, 11:52 PM
Robillard on Capt. Deudermont's ship does that.

Who on the what?

Myrmex
2009-07-07, 12:03 AM
@Dropping Big Heavy Things on Them (TM)

Let me introduce to you, the joy of combining Physics and Magic...
100m in the air, Summon L-size Earth Elemental... it weighs probably enough to sink the ship on its own and as it plummets to the deck it will likely punch a hold clean through it before it digs into the ocean floor to avoid being wet for too long.

SUMMON MONSTER DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY.

/caps lock

quick_comment
2009-07-07, 12:07 AM
If you have access to the stronghold builder's guide, you can get yourself an animated obdurium fortress with prismatic screens on all the walls, forbiddance and anything else you want for dirt cheap. That includes teleportation and plane shift powers.

Night-breeze
2009-07-07, 12:09 AM
@Dropping Big Heavy Things on Them (TM)

Let me introduce to you, the joy of combining Physics and Magic...
100m in the air, Summon L-size Earth Elemental... it weighs probably enough to sink the ship on its own and as it plummets to the deck it will likely punch a hold clean through it before it digs into the ocean floor to avoid being wet for too long.

Sadly, as it has already been pointed out, it doesn't work that way.
You have to summon a creature on something that can sustain it. That is, no summoning in midair to let it drop. As a DM, I have waived that requirement for airborne creatures...but RAW, everything must be summoned on ground or on buiding.

Now, if we had a flying surface capable of withstanding the weight of an earth elemental...

Night-breeze
2009-07-07, 12:11 AM
If you have access to the stronghold builder's guide, you can get yourself an animated obdurium fortress with prismatic screens on all the walls, forbiddance and anything else you want for dirt cheap. That includes teleportation and plane shift powers.

I do have accesso to the SBG, but building fantastilionic fortressess (tm) is not the goal of this campaign.

Mr.Moron
2009-07-07, 12:12 AM
I think it would be helpful if we got a running update for the ships current loadout, funds spent and funds available.

That would make it very easy to suggest changes/refinements/upgrades.

quick_comment
2009-07-07, 12:13 AM
I do have accesso to the SBG, but building fantastilionic fortressess (tm) is not the goal of this campaign.

Is there any real difference between a fortress that flies/sails and a big ship?

Ganurath
2009-07-07, 12:28 AM
Is there any real difference between a fortress that flies/sails and a big ship?A rose by any other name is still the reproductive organ of a thorny shrub.

Mr.Moron
2009-07-07, 12:33 AM
Hmm. Also from MMII

Desmodu War-Bat.

Despite the name, it doesn't seem to be a war trained mount (no mention of ride checks, etc..) so it's probably a legit target for warbeast. Might wanna double-check with your DM, at any rate assuming it is makes for a pretty badass elite bat.

Highlights
Huge
Cost: 925gp/Bat
11HD(126hd)
50ft Fly

Light Load: 1600
Light Load(Animal Growth'd): 4986 (Bombs Away?)

EDIT: On the earth elemental dropping thing. You might not be able to summon them above the ship. But what you can do is grant them a fly speed (You said sorcerers were OK?- Cohort!).

Have them fly over the target and willingly fall . 54,000lbs. Coming down. EDIT: At 20d6 + 1d6/200lbs, you're looking at 290d6. May not probably doesn't work, DM will likely apply the slow-fall clause when you choose not to fly (despite the spell not having ended).

There has got to be some way to get those guys in falling position. Getting an anti-magic field up there that follows the elemental down is certainly a viable option. The question is how to keep it from being suicide.

Actually it isn't. That'd make the stupid thing wink out.

I suppose a Squad of the War-Bats, could haul it up there with cable. Assuming they're allowed to split the load. You'd need like 11 of them though, which is 2 castings. At that point you're probably better off dropping 14 4000lb boulders.

Vaynor
2009-07-07, 12:36 AM
Here's a little something (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1098853&postcount=1) I made a while ago, great for a no-ammo solution to your enemy ship problems.

Note, it can knock out masts, put holes in ships, or even shoot out large objects.

Radar
2009-07-07, 04:50 AM
For long range targeting, Scry or other divination effects via spells or magic items is the obvious solution.

For defense, aren't there magic items that repel a specific type of elemental? Or maybe a Cleric follower with a domain ability to turn/rebuke water elementals?

Scry won't do at all - it only gives you ability to spy on a specific creature that you know something about.

As for divinations that might be usefull:
Locate Object - won't detect elementals, but can be set to locate weapons, so it would cover any sort of regular ambush (boats filled with armed men and such) and allow you to coordinate you fliers better while they lift off/land. It's a second level spell, so auto-repeating trap should be reasonably priced. And it has a long range, so it gives a warning soon enough.

Locate Creature - it's just, what i would like except two things: it can only locate one type of creature at a time (minor incovenience, since it's elementals, that are dangerous) and it's blocked by running water for whatever reasons (i suppose, it could be discussed with the DM, still it's not good). :smallannoyed: As a fourth level trap, it will cost a bit more unfortunately, but it gives a nice level of protection.

Commune with Nature - has a range counted in miles and can be used to detect unnatural creatures (and elementals count as such i guess), i guess it does work on a sea, but it might not be true. The problem is, it's Instantaneous and takes 10min to cast. As a fifth level spell it would be quite costly, to have a trap of and not as precise as Locate Creature. Still it might be a good thing to cast it in search of any threats ones in a while.

Rasilak
2009-07-07, 06:55 AM
I suppose a Squad of the War-Bats, could haul it up there with cable. Assuming they're allowed to split the load. You'd need like 11 of them though, which is 2 castings. At that point you're probably better off dropping 14 4000lb boulders.Yep, if you have to haul the elemental the whole way, there is no reason not to use a rock of the same size instead. Shrink Item is your friend here.
Besides, I'm with the solution of making your ship a submarine. Like they say:
There are two kinds of ships - submarines and targets.
You'll probably be unaffected by storms, damn hard to detect, can move in a third dimension and take cover behind underwater cliffs. Also fire is not a danger to you anymore and dropped heavy objects are slowed down a lot. The only thing you have to fear is Mage's Disjunction.
Also, underwater carriers are just plain cool. I loved to use those in SMAC ("deep pressure hull"+"carrier deck"=win!)

kemmotar
2009-07-07, 07:36 AM
On speed you could simply get a few water elementals to pull your ship...it's probably much the same they "use" in eberron...Summon water elemental in magic circle, geas it (or something) and have it pull your ship for 10 years (since endless geas fails).

Also, eternal wands of fireball is what you're looking for, it was mentioned before but without a name...

Since you're going against a storm submerge would be the easiest way to counter the effects of any storm. Even though with lightning turbine you ignore weather restrictions, you still have limited vision, are thrown up and down by waves and hurricanes only work above water...

Thus it follows that if you are underwater, you couldn't care less about the storm...

Haven I also sigged medieval submarine...^_^
if you mind i'll remove it

Telonius
2009-07-07, 08:14 AM
If you're modeling it on an actual carrier group (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrier_strike_group), you're going to need some support vessels. Summoned monsters can serve as both the submarines (dire sharks, other undersea creatures), air strike capacity (griffons, etc), and logistics/reconnaissance (ravens, eagles). You might look into using Leadership to get yourself a few Warlocks (if they're allowed) with Fell Flight; they can serve as fighters or bombers. What you need next are cruisers and destroyers. A Wingship is actually fairly good as a destroyer (quick, maneuverable), but that'll be out of your price range. I'd suggest using Leadership to get yourself a few Paladin/Knight multiclasses (use Knight Training from Eberron if necessary) with Large Shark Mounts. They can draw fire away from your ship as well as charge any smaller boats or creatures. They are potentially faster than a Wingship, with the Shark having a swim speed of 60 ft. They can overtake on light or moderate winds, and keep pace on strong winds.

Next thing you'd need to worry about is what happens if they somehow manage to get next to your ship. (With mostly Wingship opponents, they may overtake you quickly enough for this to be an issue). You'll probably want to invest in at least a few marines to repel boarders.

Jothki
2009-07-07, 08:26 AM
Planar Sails let the whole bloody ship go to another plane of existence. It takes 5 minutes and a DC 20 Knowledge (the planes) check, but the two together grant access to the following planes without need for wards against the environment:The Material Plane, all three Transitive Planes, the Elemental Plane of Air, Celestia, Bytopia, Elysium, The Beastlands, Arborea, Ysgard, Limbo, Pandemonium, myriad layers of The Abyss, Carceri, The Gray Waste (decent place to bury loot,) Gehenna, all but a few layers of the Nine Hells, Acheron, maybe Mechanus if zoning permits aren't an issue, Arcadia, and sweet Mouqol the Outlands!

Does that mean that 10 minutes and two DC 20 Knowledge (the planes) checks will let you teleport the ship anywhere on the same plane? Or can you do that with only a single teleport?

Myrmex
2009-07-07, 11:36 AM
Also, eternal wands of fireball is what you're looking for, it was mentioned before but without a name...

No; you want fireball traps. Waaaay cheaper, and infinite uses.

Ganurath
2009-07-07, 01:37 PM
Does that mean that 10 minutes and two DC 20 Knowledge (the planes) checks will let you teleport the ship anywhere on the same plane? Or can you do that with only a single teleport?It'd be ten minutes and two checks.

quick_comment
2009-07-07, 01:41 PM
For torpedoes, get animated hunks of steel with prismatic screen effects on the front. In the back is DBF trap. They fly at the target, using their prismatic screen to disintegrate their way through it. As they go through it, they leave delayed blast fireballs that go off.

The torpedo then returns to your ship.

Dekana
2009-07-07, 04:20 PM
I don't think anyone has mentioned Detect Ship yet. It's a spell in Stormwrack that lasts all day and lets the caster sense the presence of ships within several miles. A profession (sailor) check is also needed.

It might not be applicable to the druid, but if you take leadership or have an arcane caster in the group, it could work as your long range ground-ground radar.

Shademan
2009-07-07, 05:40 PM
hey! are we playing in the same campaign then?
dreaded Capn' Blackshark here!

But yeah, I just ranted about this in the "stupid rules" topic or whatever.
elves build boats? WTF!

Night-breeze
2009-07-08, 04:58 AM
Ah, my malenti friend. Yes, indeed.

Elves are pretty much good at whatever they decide to try, and besides, it's a long tradition that they are good in shipbuilding. In Faerun, for example, their major kingdom is on an island, and they pretty much dominate the ocean in a radius of 500 km.

Shademan
2009-07-08, 09:37 AM
yeah, but the ship can barely hold any canons. so I'm getting a bigger one.

D Knight
2009-07-08, 02:32 PM
i am surprised that no one has said anything about the spell Ironwood. It makes wood act like iron in some respects like hardness but not weight, all though i have not read the spell in the past few months. You could cast this over your entire ship and really have a hard time sink this stinker.

Mitth'raw'nuruo
2009-07-08, 05:25 PM
Just a thought; the spell Ice Ship from Frostburn (lvl 4 sor/wiz).

Can create an Ice Galleon: can move against the wind @ 5 MPH, with the wind @ 10. 3 med. creatures per caster lvl; 60 HP and a hardness of 5.

If the temp is above freezing the ship melts and it takes 1d12 dmg per hr.

If you need extra disposable ships on short notice: say for boarding or what have you.

Ganurath
2009-07-08, 05:33 PM
Just a thought; the spell Ice Ship from Frostburn (lvl 4 sor/wiz).

Can create an Ice Galleon: can move against the wind @ 5 MPH, with the wind @ 10. 3 med. creatures per caster lvl; 60 HP and a hardness of 5.

If the temp is above freezing the ship melts and it takes 1d12 dmg per hr.

If you need extra disposable ships on short notice: say for boarding or what have you."What have you" being code for ramming.

Flickerdart
2009-07-08, 05:35 PM
10mph is hardly ramming speed. You'd need some way to accelerate them.

Ganurath
2009-07-08, 05:37 PM
It can go 5 mph against the wind, which means magical propulsion. Ergo, it will keep going forward after the initial collision. Sustained force against a naval ship's flank... Can you say sea cow tipping?

D Knight
2009-07-08, 09:33 PM
OK i just was able to look at my books and I was a little off with the description i gave of Ironwood. it is just as heavy, strong and resistant to fire a steel. So spells like heat metal would not affect it but spell that shape wood do affect it. Any way you would then have a ship that could not be burned down but you would have to be ready to counter spell any wood shaping spells or you sink. also its only a level 6 druid spell and you need the spell Permanency, so just have a NPC do that.

Arbitrarity
2009-07-08, 09:46 PM
OK i just was able to look at my books and I was a little off with the description i gave of Ironwood. it is just as heavy, strong and resistant to fire a steel. So spells like heat metal would not affect it but spell that shape wood do affect it. Any way you would then have a ship that could not be burned down but you would have to be ready to counter spell any wood shaping spells or you sink. also its only a level 6 druid spell and you need the spell Permanency, so just have a NPC do that.

You already have to counter wood shaping with a wooden ship, so par for the course.
But you get a steel ship, otherwise, that won't rust. Badass. Ironclads FTW.

Ganurath
2009-07-08, 10:24 PM
It won't float, either.

Night-breeze
2009-07-09, 08:21 AM
Indeed something like a carrier group will be formed. Detect ship is good. Ice ship, also, and has interesting uses (say for example...make it become a submarin with that 7th level spell, then make ram the enemy ship from beneath...priceless). I think I am going to pick a sorcerer as a cohort, with all those arcane goodies.

Ironwood makes the wood too heavy to transform the ship. Still, it could be applied to critical positions, where a greater resistance is needed.

I may have to ask the DM, but I think that were I to apply this only on the bottom of the ship, it may reduce my cargo capacity, but still allow me to float easily.

Telonius
2009-07-09, 09:12 AM
Ah, my malenti friend. Yes, indeed.

Elves are pretty much good at whatever they decide to try, and besides, it's a long tradition that they are good in shipbuilding. In Faerun, for example, their major kingdom is on an island, and they pretty much dominate the ocean in a radius of 500 km.

I see your Faerun and raise you one Cirdan.

Radar
2009-07-09, 09:38 AM
Indeed something like a carrier group will be formed. Detect ship is good. Ice ship, also, and has interesting uses (say for example...make it become a submarin with that 7th level spell, then make ram the enemy ship from beneath...priceless). I think I am going to pick a sorcerer as a cohort, with all those arcane goodies.

Ironwood makes the wood too heavy to transform the ship. Still, it could be applied to critical positions, where a greater resistance is needed.

I may have to ask the DM, but I think that were I to apply this only on the bottom of the ship, it may reduce my cargo capacity, but still allow me to float easily.
You don't have to ram from underwater - it will be even more destructive to emerge from below enemy ship (preferably while in a perpendicular direction to the ship). No ship is constructed to whitstand such unsusual kind of stress.

D Knight
2009-07-09, 10:18 AM
Ironwood makes the wood too heavy to transform the ship. Still, it could be applied to critical positions, where a greater resistance is needed.

OK then how do ironclads and modern ships stay a float even though they are made from iron and steel. if you could prove that they do not float then i will agree with you but as of right now your logic is very flawed.

PrismaticPIA
2009-07-09, 10:35 AM
I'm surprised no one mentioned wands of Gust of Wind. Sure it's a sorc/wiz spell, but the UMD check to use one could easily be made by a rogue riding a griffon. Have a few of these acting in concert, and you could easily pin a ship long enough to get and keep it in range of your primary guns.

You might find a lot of the Wall spells to be pretty useful too. Ice, Water, Force, Prismatic....etc.

If you want to be really silly, you could use the persist spell/footsteps of the divine trick on an uber-charger cohort, cast Water Walk, and have him dash across the ocean to destroy a enemy ship's mast.

Milskidasith
2009-07-09, 11:00 AM
Ok, so I'm going to compile a list of all the stuff suggested so far.

Submerged Ship: Great for ambushes!
Ice galleon: Can be cast multiple times, submerged, and used for ramming/as a meatIceshield or whatever.
Water Elemental Torpedoes: Obvious.
DMM Persisted Water Elemental Torpedoes: No time limits!
Different kinds of bats: Cheaper and stronger than your other bomber options.
Fireball traps aimed like cannons. Even better if you can move them around to aim.
A Sorceror companion for all your spell needs.
Create a bunch of rocks.
Lightning Turbine, for high speed destruction!
Some other misc. spells for other misc. things.

paddyfool
2009-07-09, 12:58 PM
You might find a lot of the Wall spells to be pretty useful too. Ice, Water, Force, Prismatic....etc.

Ouch... oh my, yes. Because ships have momentum, they'd just sail right on into a wall of force (or whatever) that had been placed directly in their path, go crunch, and then sink. If you try this, be prepared for wrath of DM; which might just include having the same trick used against you in due course.

PrismaticPIA
2009-07-09, 01:42 PM
If he's operating his ship right, he'll be able to find his enemies long before they get a chance to cast walls.

Other amusing tactics:

Message, Telepathic Bond, etc. (instant ship-to-ship communication)

Reverse Gravity (on the ship or it's crew.)

Sphere of Annihilation

Animate Object (on their rudder, helm, cannons, etc.)

Air Elementals (especially the bigger ones)

Animate Rope (all your ropes belongs to us ^.^)

Cometfall (Cleric spell. Look it up)

Grease and its brothers (because the enemy didn't need to make balance checks on their ship before....)

UNLEASH THE KRAKEN! (If only to be able to say it at the table)

Any number of illusion/invisibility spells (now you see me....)

Stronghold Builder's Guidebook (useful reading)

Rod of Ropes (for boarder parties)

Making your ship an intelligent item (so much fun rp potential here)
Go one step further, if you have feats to spare, make it your item familiar.

Create Food and Water (dry, uncooked rice. Fill their hull with it)

D Knight
2009-07-10, 11:03 PM
well if you need an get away ship/creature you could use the siege crab and the spell mordinkins mag mansion. but you need to cast it at least 3 times to make the required space to fit the entire ships crew and have the crab at the bottom of the ship with a door below it that breaks away when you need to get out.