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Korivan
2009-07-05, 11:14 PM
So far, I've played a couple of gestalt campaigns and love them. There is so many possibilities that it almost seems impossible to make a bad gestalt..... Or is it? No, it isnt hard at all. In fact, we're playing with one right now. This guy is a ranger/rouge. In a human heavy campaign hasnt taken whetever creature type to capitilize on this. His WIS is 10 (nearing level 10 now). Optimized (sorta) with bows but stays out of range so he cant add point blank range, or sneak attack. Gets involed in melee often, trying to go toe-toe with melee built monsters.
Now, I know this example is more about the player being inexperienced but is there any other bad character/dead weight gestalt PC's anybody's come across?

Swok
2009-07-05, 11:17 PM
Samurai//Truenamer

Hat-Trick
2009-07-05, 11:17 PM
People will come in here with things like Fighter//Monk. Watch.

...

Oh, wait, damn.

I personally wouldn't mind playing it, but others might not.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-07-05, 11:18 PM
Monk/Wizard. Normally not a bad build, but focused on the Monk half, ignoring the Wizard, and didn't take the Int-to-AC feat. Sad, really.

Korivan
2009-07-05, 11:22 PM
People will come in here with things like Fighter//Monk. Watch.

...

Oh, wait, damn.

I personally wouldn't mind playing it, but others might not.

A Fighter/Monk (focused on TWF)isnt bad in campaigns like most of ours. We don't got the full amount of wealth by level, nor are magical items or scrolls common (near impossible to find), and most places charge triple for regular items. By this point that build and the Vow of Poverty feat actually come in handy.

Back to point...

Blackjackg
2009-07-05, 11:25 PM
People will come in here with things like Fighter//Monk. Watch.

...

Oh, wait, damn.

I personally wouldn't mind playing it, but others might not.

Fighter//Monk doesn't suck as terribly as either of them does alone. I once had a Monk//Swashbuckler/Fighter/Dervish/Tempest gestalt build that I was very proud of.

Haven
2009-07-06, 12:35 AM
Soulknife//Monk could be..."fun"?

...Though now I'm morbidly curious about the possibilities of a Soulknife//Swordsage. Or //Warblade, that actually makes a lot of sense.

...Oh man, I just actually read the Soulknife description. They get Speed of Thought as a bonus feat. Don't get me wrong, it's a great feat for characters who can become psionically focused. But...

...

Why would you do that? That's just cruel.

MCerberus
2009-07-06, 12:59 AM
Fun but not optimized would be the legendary Bardbarian. Bard//Barbarian. Get an adamantine lute. You'll be using it as a club with stunning frequency.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-07-06, 01:03 AM
Fun but not optimized would be the legendary Bardbarian. Bard//Barbarian. Get an adamantine lute. You'll be using it as a club with stunning frequency.There's a difference between not optimized and anti-optimized. Your character is decent for gestalt, if a bit underpowered. If the build is weaker than a non-gestalt tier 3, there's a problem.

Shosuro Ishii
2009-07-06, 01:16 AM
Wouldn't anti-optimization just be:

Truenamer//non-full caster

and not take any ranks in Truenaming (or whatever it's called)?

Thurbane
2009-07-06, 01:18 AM
Monk//Warmage - ultimate MAD.

Myrmex
2009-07-06, 01:20 AM
If the build is weaker than a non-gestalt tier 3, there's a problem.

The only problem is if you are not having fun.

Talic
2009-07-06, 01:30 AM
A lot of people think "combine bad classes, get bad gestalt". This isn't necessarily true. Classes are bad for different reasons.

Monks are bad because they have low HP for a melee fighter, low BAB, and their class features don't help enough.

Fighters don't have enough to really make them unique, or good as more than a way to power up other classes with feats.

Combine them, and you have a Full BAB, high HP character with good skill points, class abilities, and a slew of feats. Not bad.

Take, however:

Bard // Monk

No improvement to HP, no improvement to skills, more class features that are better as support abilities than primary class abilities. The result is something truly sub-par in the Gestalt world. On top of that, extremely MAD. Dex/Wis important for monk. Con, as well, and strength tertiary.

Charisma is the be all and end all for bard.

Both benefit from high int (for skills), neither really can afford it, when you're statting for 2 conflicting classes.

Korivan
2009-07-06, 01:35 AM
What I'm getting from this is that there really isnt many bad gestalts other then combining anything that is absolutly wretched to begin with (truenamer). Heck, even the bardbarion sounds fun.
On a side note, given the information from my first post, is there any items/PrC/feats that could help my friend be better? As of now, he ends up falling in negatives after 3/4 of encounters (his optimisim hasnt failed though). Try to find cheap items if possible, we're in a godless (thus clericless) campaign with magic items being a rarity.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-07-06, 01:41 AM
Sounds like his playing is the problem, not his build. Yes, it would be better as Rogue/Fighter, but it's not terrible. Meleeing as an archer-focused hurts, though. Point him towards Greater Manyshot, the feat that boosts SA range up to 60', and the ACF from PHBII to lose the worthless AC and get a way to make foes flatfooted at range. Toss in a wis-boosting item(I know they're rare, but talk to the DM on his behalf) and the SpC swift-action Ranger spells and he'll be much better.

Korivan
2009-07-06, 01:46 AM
Sounds like his playing is the problem, not his build. Yes, it would be better as Rogue/Fighter, but it's not terrible. Meleeing as an archer-focused hurts, though. Point him towards Greater Manyshot, the feat that boosts SA range up to 60', and the ACF from PHBII to lose the worthless AC and get a way to make foes flatfooted at range. Toss in a wis-boosting item(I know they're rare, but talk to the DM on his behalf) and the SpC swift-action Ranger spells and he'll be much better.

Funny you mention the rogue/fighter, we have one, he went with the scyth. With him we have a fighter/wizard, duskblade/fighter, and wizard/sorcerer

Kaiyanwang
2009-07-06, 01:54 AM
Wu Jen // Kung Fu Genius Monk.

A master of te wind and the water, both melee and caster.

Ganurath
2009-07-06, 01:56 AM
Fighter//Beguiler with Battle Caster. An armored figure of mist and shadow, he approaches silently to deliver the coup de grace.

Milskidasith
2009-07-06, 02:03 AM
Commoner/Aristocrat would probably be terrible.

Lycanthromancer
2009-07-06, 02:13 AM
What about a scout//monk/dwarven defender?

Or a VoP fighter//wizard?

Or a warforged druid//monk, with Adamantine Body?

Hmm. Sorcerer/alienist//barbarian/frenzied berzerker?

Frogwarrior
2009-07-06, 02:18 AM
OK. I'm a n00b, I'll grant. Could someone explain how, exactly, this "gestalt" thing works? I think I got the gist, sorta, but... it's kinda weirding me out.

Milskidasith
2009-07-06, 02:18 AM
wizard who has 20 spellbooks filled with prestidigitation/commoner.

Lycanthromancer
2009-07-06, 02:26 AM
OK. I'm a n00b, I'll grant. Could someone explain how, exactly, this "gestalt" thing works? I think I got the gist, sorta, but... it's kinda weirding me out.

You take two classes at each level. If two class features overlap (like attack bonus, hit points, skill points, or sneak attack) you take the better of the two features.

Also, what about commoner//wizard (without Infested With Chickens and with an Int of 8)?

Ganurath
2009-07-06, 02:43 AM
Infested With Chickens?

TSED
2009-07-06, 02:48 AM
Infested With Chickens?

It was a joke commoner-only feat in Dragon, which apparently is actually quite broken. I've never seen the wording or the build to take advantage of it myself, though.

Coidzor
2009-07-06, 02:54 AM
Infested With Chickens?

50% chance anything drawn from inventory will be a chicken instead. No one knows where chickens come from. Personally, I think he's connected/a portal to the quasi-plane of chicken.

Hmm... This is sort of like imagining an Anti-Sue, only harder.

Ganurath
2009-07-06, 02:56 AM
Goes great with The Dead Walk for a voodoo flavored warlock, eh?

"There could be a trap up ahead."
"I'll sacrifice a chicken, that's always good for warding off misfortune."
"I hardly think-"
*zombie chicken explodes*
"...Huh."

quick_comment
2009-07-06, 02:59 AM
Wizard//Fighter/War Hulk

Korivan
2009-07-06, 07:44 AM
Commoner/Aristocrat would probably be terrible.

wouldnt anything gestalted with commoner be pointless? Seriously, do they even have 1 advantage? No, no they don't...well done sir...You have made the most pointless thing to ever adventure. All he needs now is to invest heavily into crafting (pottery, basketweaving, and whining), and he'll be ready for a dungeon crawl. I wanna give you a cookie but dont know where they are, nor do I know how to do those spoiler things...if anyone can help?

Back to point...Commoner/trunamer geared towards melee

Cyclocone
2009-07-06, 08:30 AM
Truenamer//Artificer with VoP

Well, i guess it's still better than Samurai//Commoner with Pig Bound, but still...

Coidzor
2009-07-06, 08:38 AM
Truenamer//Artificer with VoP

Well, i guess it's still better than Samurai//Commoner with Pig Bound, but still...

What's Pig Bound?

hewhosaysfish
2009-07-06, 08:41 AM
...Oh man, I just actually read the Soulknife description. They get Speed of Thought as a bonus feat. Don't get me wrong, it's a great feat for characters who can become psionically focused. But...

...

Why would you do that? That's just cruel.

Sorry to continue this slight derail but:
Concentration can be used untrained: hence anyone can become psionically focused if they can get a 20 on a Concentration check.
So the Soulknife just spends 2 minutes at the start of his day (while the party wizard is prepping his spells for example) to meditate on his psioniciness, takes 20 on his Concentration check and and becomes focused.

Since he had nothing to expend his focus on (unless he takes some feats to do so) then he stays focused and gets a +10 enhancement bonus to speed until he next falls unconscious (i.e. until he next sleeps if he doesn't get dropped).

Not great but not entirely useless and cruel.

Random832
2009-07-06, 08:46 AM
wouldnt anything gestalted with commoner be pointless? Seriously, do they even have 1 advantage?

A halfway decent set of class skills.

(seriously, though - Aristocrat's surprisingly not-worthless - d8 HD, 3/4 BAB)

Cyclocone
2009-07-06, 08:52 AM
What's Pig Bound?

It's another commoner flaw like Chicken Infested, it forces you to carry a pig around at all times i.e. you can't have both hands free, so if you're a Samurai you can't use most of your class abilities, since they generally rely on TWF.

Ofcourse, you could just make a harness or be a Thri-Kreen.. alas no idea is perfect:smallbiggrin:

peacenlove
2009-07-06, 09:03 AM
Shadowcaster//Monk not terribad but the very definition of MAD

Random832
2009-07-06, 09:21 AM
Is it legal to gestalt two variants of the same class? Like Fighter//Fighter-with-Sneak-Attack-and-no-Bonus-Feats?

Or how about two versions of Expert with different class skill lists?

Coidzor
2009-07-06, 09:36 AM
It's another commoner flaw like Chicken Infested, it forces you to carry a pig around at all times i.e. you can't have both hands free, so if you're a Samurai you can't use most of your class abilities, since they generally rely on TWF.

Ofcourse, you could just make a harness or be a Thri-Kreen.. alas no idea is perfect:smallbiggrin:

Well... that explains the farmer with pig commoner figurine then...:smallbiggrin:

FMArthur
2009-07-06, 09:42 AM
I like Monk//Soulknife. It isn't just MAD, it is two similar specialties that can never help each other, and both suck. This thing is either a Monk or a Soulknife and never both - I'd say it's one of the worst gestalts possible.

Moriato
2009-07-06, 09:51 AM
Sorry to continue this slight derail but:
Concentration can be used untrained: hence anyone can become psionically focused if they can get a 20 on a Concentration check.
So the Soulknife just spends 2 minutes at the start of his day (while the party wizard is prepping his spells for example) to meditate on his psioniciness, takes 20 on his Concentration check and and becomes focused.

Since he had nothing to expend his focus on (unless he takes some feats to do so) then he stays focused and gets a +10 enhancement bonus to speed until he next falls unconscious (i.e. until he next sleeps if he doesn't get dropped).

Not great but not entirely useless and cruel.

Actually you also need to have at least 1 power point to become psionically focused, and Soulknives don't get any power points, so they'd have to also take the Wild Talent feat to give them a power point pool, and *then* they could do it. Gotta love class features you have to spend a feat on before they actually do anything, eh?

deuxhero
2009-07-06, 09:58 AM
Actually you also need to have at least 1 power point to become psionically focused, and Soulknives don't get any power points, so they'd have to also take the Wild Talent feat to give them a power point pool, and *then* they could do it. Gotta love class features you have to spend a feat on before they actually do anything, eh?

They get it as a bonus feat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/soulknife.htm#wildTalent)...

Moriato
2009-07-06, 10:00 AM
They get it as a bonus feat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/soulknife.htm#wildTalent)...

Duh, you know I actually looked for that, and for some reason my eyes apparently just skipped right over it.

Random832
2009-07-06, 10:06 AM
Sorcerer//UA Spellcaster, with an unfavorable ruling that your spell progressions don't stack because the UA Spellcaster casts spells "as a Sorcerer"

Or Fighter//UA Warrior (again, needs an unfavorable ruling as to bonus feats)

Excluding NPC classes, I don't think it's possible to find a combination with less to offer over just doing one class.

Flickerdart
2009-07-06, 10:06 AM
It's another commoner flaw like Chicken Infested, it forces you to carry a pig around at all times i.e. you can't have both hands free, so if you're a Samurai you can't use most of your class abilities, since they generally rely on TWF.

Ofcourse, you could just make a harness or be a Thri-Kreen.. alas no idea is perfect:smallbiggrin:
A backpack, or using the pig as a weapon both work as well.

Coidzor
2009-07-06, 10:20 AM
A backpack, or using the pig as a weapon both work as well.

What's a pig count as anyway? A club sized for a large creature?

Zincorium
2009-07-06, 11:19 AM
What's a pig count as anyway? A club sized for a large creature?

It's an improvised weapon.

Sheesh. This is why fourth edition listed improvised weapons on the fricking table- nobody who doesn't have the book memorised knows where that section is at.

Lycanthromancer
2009-07-06, 11:27 AM
Extra points if it's a baconburst pig.

Flickerdart
2009-07-06, 11:29 AM
Extra points if it's a baconburst pig.
The pig is Awakened, and takes class levels in Kensai. It can be whatever it is you want it to be.

Coidzor
2009-07-06, 11:47 AM
It's an improvised weapon.

Sheesh. This is why fourth edition listed improvised weapons on the fricking table- nobody who doesn't have the book memorised knows where that section is at.

Well, I knew it would be improvised and so a -4 nonproficiency penalty and a 20/x2 crit. What I didn't have any idea aboot would be the damage dice associated with it. :smalltongue:

Then again, I guess this mostly depends upon the size/age/weight of the pig...

I think there's a table in Complete Warrior that lists damage dice by weight...

Woodsman
2009-07-06, 12:53 PM
I've always thought of Infested with Chickens as the key to the almighty path of cluck-fu.

warrl
2009-07-06, 02:48 PM
It's another commoner flaw like Chicken Infested, it forces you to carry a pig around at all times i.e. you can't have both hands free, so if you're a Samurai you can't use most of your class abilities, since they generally rely on TWF.

Ofcourse, you could just make a harness or be a Thri-Kreen.. alas no idea is perfect:smallbiggrin:
Is this pig a companion animal, or a familiar? (Otherwise, as anyone familiar with common pigs will tell you, the pig-bound has NO hands free.)

erikun
2009-07-06, 07:22 PM
We could be cheap and Gestalt two classes which are mutually incompatable, like Monk//Barbarian or Paladin//Druid.

Fighter//CW Samurai is about as bad as a standard Fighter; at least you can qualify for prestige classes and build up feat trees a bit earlier.

However, I'm putting my money on Paladin//Ranger. Consider the following:

Rangers deal with many small hits from either bows or TWF. Paladins deal with single large hits powered by smites. Smiting with an individual arrow or sword strike isn't going to be quite as impressive; giving up TWF/archery renders the Ranger's combats feats useless.
Rangers fight best in light armor, Paladins fight best with heavy armor/shield and mounted. While you can still use the Paladin's bonuses without heavy armor, you're considerably less tankish. Heavy armor or mounted combat turns off TWF, although I suppose you could still use archery mounted.
Conflicting MAD to the extreme. Every ability score is used for this class combo. Charisma, the Paladin's most important score, is mostly useless to Rangers. Dexterity, a very important score for Rangers, is the Paladin's dump stat. I suppose you could just focus on Strength, but then you're kind of a weaker Barbarian...
Focusing on the Paladin aspects turns you into a Paladin with an expanded skill list. Focusing on the Ranger aspects turns you into a Ranger with minor magical bonuses. Overall, the Gestalt provides little to nothing for either half, and could just make you worse when trying to combine the two.

Random832
2009-07-06, 07:28 PM
Roll two sets of six stats and pick the best three of each? :smalltongue:

woodenbandman
2009-07-06, 07:32 PM
What about an Orc Bard//Factotum. d8 Hitdie, stat penalty to all the stats that the classes need, medium BAB... 6-int skillpoints isn't bad, though.

Lycanthromancer
2009-07-06, 07:44 PM
I still like my warforged monk//druid with Adamantine Body.

He can't do anything except a smack things with his 3/4 BAB.

Coidzor
2009-07-06, 07:47 PM
Is this pig a companion animal, or a familiar? (Otherwise, as anyone familiar with common pigs will tell you, the pig-bound has NO hands free.)

But can they even really be held for any length of time once they get to that kind of size?

erikun
2009-07-06, 07:52 PM
I still like my warforged monk//druid with Adamantine Body.

He can't do anything except a smack things with his 3/4 BAB.
I'm pretty sure an undead Ravid is worse. :smallwink:

(A Ravid (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ravid.htm) is a creature that continuously channels positive energy through its body - that'll be one short-lived undead!)

Coidzor
2009-07-06, 07:54 PM
I'm pretty sure an undead Ravid is worse. :smallwink:

(A Ravid (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ravid.htm) is a creature that continuously channels positive energy through its body - that'll be one short-lived undead!)

That would be funny. Though I think, RAW, the supernatural positive energy suffusing it would be cut off/cease by the necromancy/death.

Indon
2009-07-06, 08:15 PM
However, I'm putting my money on Paladin//Ranger. Consider the following:

Clearly, the key to effective Paladin/Ranger gestalting is to teach your animal companion to ride your paladin mount.

Lycanthromancer
2009-07-06, 08:18 PM
Clearly, the key to effective Paladin/Ranger gestalting is to teach your animal companion to ride your paladin mount.

Then you get little half-celestial critters running around.

You could start a zoo!

Clearly, this sort of munchkinism is broken.

Flickerdart
2009-07-06, 08:20 PM
Clearly, the key to effective Paladin/Ranger gestalting is to teach your animal companion to ride your paladin mount.
You could take the alternate Paladin feature that gives you a magic sword instead and ride your animal companion, or trade the AC away for something useful.

Indon
2009-07-06, 08:20 PM
Then you get little half-celestial critters running around.

You could start a zoo!

Clearly, this sort of munchkinism is broken.

I meant in combat, but that idea works too.

OracleofWuffing
2009-07-06, 08:32 PM
Is it "Cheating" to pick fallen classes (Ex-Paladin, Ex-Druid), and also, is it "Cheating" to take a bunch of exalted vows and willingly break them all (preferably in one day)?

Faleldir
2009-07-06, 09:04 PM
You could take the alternate Paladin feature that gives you a magic sword instead
What book is that from?

MCerberus
2009-07-06, 09:11 PM
We can go with the chicken feat and make a Commoner//Monk that flurries some "shuriken". Bonus points for TWF.

Coidzor
2009-07-06, 09:16 PM
Then you get little half-celestial critters running around.

You could start a zoo!

Clearly, this sort of munchkinism is broken.

Max out handle animal... and with enough downtime.... Muahahahahahahaha!

Myrmex
2009-07-06, 10:56 PM
You take two classes at each level. If two class features overlap (like attack bonus, hit points, skill points, or sneak attack) you take the better of the two features.

Also, what about commoner//wizard (without Infested With Chickens and with an Int of 8)?

It's better to think of it as hybridizing two classes into one class, since then there are no issues of HD or HD related features (though technically HD overlap). It's just a less clunky way of doing it.